Talk:Super Saiyan/Archive 4

Legendary Symptoms
Theres too many politics and nitpicking about adding something to the articles so I'll let someone else do it but find some sources and add something about Legendary status increasing aggression, it's mentioned on other ones and it probably increases the aggression of a saiyan the most out of any form being that broly said about 3 words and did nothing when he wasn't any kind of super saiyan and when he was legendary he blew up entire galaxies.

Also my second point and i'm sure i'll be hated for this but you can check the Bio-Broly movie, bio broly is not a super saiyan, he's only legendary. he walks out of the tank legendary and he's legendary in the tank too, hard to tell but even if you doubt look at the other 2 movies when he went from super saiyan to legendary, he always made a big bang to become legendary and thats never seen so he had to be legendary the whole time and he was never a regular super saiyan. Lucasthalefty 05:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think Broly was a regular Super Saiyan when Goten (or Trunks, I forgot which) first noticed him and he glanced at them. But I agree when he first walked out of the tank, he was CLEARLY Legendary Super Saiyan as evidenced by his massively increased muscle mass, slightly more spikier hair, and no irises.  I tried putting that into the article a couple of times only for it to be promptly deleted and someone asking for a source, since the movie itself in which he makes his ONLY appearance isn't good enough.4.252.211.211 05:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Super Saiyan arua color
So lately the former MajinVegeta and I have been edit warring over the color of a Super Saiyan's arua; I say gold while she says white. She has provided two pictures claiming her case, the first being a Super Saiyan pre-teen Gohan clearly with white aura, the second a Frieza Saga Super Saiyan Goku with white aura. I'm willing to accept the first picture as a viable source since the second has SSJ Goku with white hair and I'm not about for a second willing to accept that SSJs have white hair.

However, colors in the manga have been known to sporadically switch. Official DBZ art by Mr. Toriyama have Chibi Gohan's namek outfit in either light purple or GREEN. Goku's undershirt switches from blue to black as well as his gi clearly is colored in a light orange color, but described as golden yellow in Dragon Ball Z Vol 25 on page 151 in the bottom left corner. Due to the inconsistant colors used and to stay consistant with the rest of the article, I would normally vote for the description to stay as golden yellow. (Example of consistancy with rest of article; False, USSJ, USSJ2, SSJ2, & SSJ3 are all pictured with gold arua with False SSJ even STATING to have golden arua)

However, as with earlier discussions over what to do with contrasting manga/anime information (I was around for the Goku article arguments), I vote that we comprimise by avoiding the problem altogether and just not state it as any color at all and instead focus on the activity of the arua such as "gentle waves" to "blazing torrent" when we describe it.4.252.215.212 18:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with you, but just as a reminder, the issue with that is that False Super Saiyan is not a transformation made by Toriyama, Toei created it exclusively for Movie 4, it never appears in the series. Toei made the auras gold/yellow to match the hair, that's all it was. And the inconsistent colors are explained by some chapters being exclusively in ink (black), while several were actually colored. --VorangorTheDemon 11:44, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Archived latest SSJ discussion
The talk page was getting overly too long. If you would like to continue past conversations or have something to discuss about the current article, please do so below. Thank you. Heat P 06:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Bebi Vegeta or Baby Vegeta?
Which one to use? I've always used Bebi, not Baby. Baby for the main article is understandable because that's what most English speaking people know him as, but not in descriptions because I thought we use Japanese names as much as we could. The reason why I bring this up is because I recently changed Baby to Bebi, but a user reverted. --Majinvegeta 01:31, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I reverted your edit for consistancy reasons. If the main article is Baby, then the most obvious name to use in all other articles is Baby. We use Son Goku and Son Gohan over Goku and Gohan on all Dragon Ball pages; we use Kuririn over Krillin; and we use Muten-Rôshi over Master Roshi. // Decaimiento Poético  01:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * ~.^  Well......Shouldn't the page name be changed, since "Baby" is not his name, it's "Bebi". If what you say is true, then we should change the page name to Bebi because it is his original Japanese name, my example extends to the name of the Goku article, being that his Japanese name IS indeed Son Goku. So shouldn't the page name be changed to Bebi if we use the Japanese names on all others? --Majinvegeta 15:57, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll leave the name-changing to the rest of the community. I don't care much for what we name the articles, though I wish we could decide on one single language to name the characters from. // Decaimiento Poético  16:13, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It was decided by consensus that we move the page to Baby. If you want it moved back to Bebi, start another move discussion-- $U IT  18:48, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't know that there was a consensus. Oh well, guess we could keep it the way it is, I just thought it was odd because every other article has the Japanese name. It's not really a big issue though. --Majinvegeta 23:31, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If I recall correctly, we go by consistency, so we should use the japanese name, since FUNimation has a way of translating things so that the translation loses its meaning. I say we use Bebi. It'll cause less confusion between the kid vegeta we see in flashbacks in DBZ, and the possessed Vegeta we see in GT. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.183.44.106 (talk) 18:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

Kid Vegeta was never called Baby Vegeta.-- $U IT  19:30, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe not, but atleast when someone sees "Bebi vegeta" they know its not Vegeta as a baby.71.183.44.106 20:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Bebi is just how the Japanese pronounce Baby (I think... correct me if I'm wrong).-- $U IT  03:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Why is there a dicsussion on Bebi or Baby on the Super Saiyan talk page? Move it to Baby/Bebi's article. When the problem is fixed there then go to other articles and fix the same problem then. Thank you. Heat P 05:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The reason it's here is because it is "Baby Vegeta" under the Super Saiyan 4 section. I changed it to Bebi, but Poetic Decay reverted. That's why it's here, but I agree, it should be on the Baby page. --Majinvegeta 06:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * So is it going to be Baby or Bebi? If it isnt going to be Bebi, can someone explain to me why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.183.44.106 (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC).

LSSJ
Does anybody have an actual source on this? Whenever I ask, the most I'm usually told on other sites is that the Daiz' uses the phrase "Densetsu no Supa Saiya-jin" (Legendary Super Saiyan). So what I want to know is if anyone has that page from the sourcebook and can translate it, cuz that phrase gets used alot in movie 8 to describe what Broly is as an individual (as opposed to a specific description of a transformation). Likewise, unless the Daiz' says it, the bit about his speed is original research. Aside from dodging that one flurry from Piccolo and Goku, he basically takes everything else on the chin with a laugh, and pretty much clotheslines and ki blasts his way through the fight. Trunks is said to suffer speed loss when he fought Cell, and in the first half of the fight he looks a hell of a lot faster than most anything Broly did. I'd just like to see a source on that section. Onikage725 01:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well I do not have the Dai books with me in Iraq but I do have them and Densetsu in japanese mean tradition, legend, or folklore. So in translation, Densetsu no Supa Saiya-jin is translated into two titles, Super Saiyan of Legend(or Folklore) or Legendary Super Saiyan. Same as the SNES japanese game titled Supa Saiya-jin Densetsu is Super Saiyan Legend. So the title basically Vegeta and Paragus gave Broly is indeed Legendary Super Saiyan. As for the speed thing it is a iffy iffy thing. Broly does seem to move slow but when compared to the others in the fight who as well is fighting at what seems a slow pace Broly does seem to move at a faster pace them the others. But I understand you on wanting a source and sorry, if I was home I could give it but as me being out here I can't at this time but since I have looked over the book many times I can say that Densetsu no Supa Saiya-jin can mean one of the two titles, the most common the Legendary Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan of Legend. But as Densetsu no is before Supa Saiya-jin in Broly's title as it is used after in the SNES game then it is more likely that when translated it english they used the Legendary Super Saiyan translation as the title.Heat P 03:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree on the translation, its the context I question- that of Broly's SSJ state being given its own name. The term used is the one they use in the movie for Broly. However, they are saying "he is the legendary Super Saiyan," rather than "he has transformed into the legendary Super Saiyan form," or something like that. And for speed, Broly's style seems more akin to Super 13 (and noone ever says he got faster). In fact, Broly seems noticeably faster in his combat style, or at least more agile, before hulking out (when he attacks Goku at night, early movie 10 if I recall though it has been awhile).
 * PS take care of yourself in Iraq. Are you in the service?

Onikage725 21:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah I'm in the service and thanks of the support we need it. Back to the subject at hand. I think I get what you are saying. But as the movie goes on they begin to say that when Broly transforms into that state or form that is titled LSSJ now. But Broly all together is the Densetsu no Supa Saiyajin not just that bulky form. We as well as most people, Fan and official folks alike. just use the title for the bulked up form. To show the difference between the actual normal super saiyan forms, Grade 2 and 3 to the Bulk LSSJ from, the Dai book I believe number 7 gave that form the title but only to show the difference. Broly as a whole is the Legendary Super Saiyan.
 * Speed thing, as I said that is a iffy iffy thing because I will agree that it does look like he is slower but there are times in the movie where he seems very nimble and agile. But if you had a form that was imperveace to nearly any of you ememys attack would use speed to bet them or power? See Trunks' Grade 3 (USSJ) form was strong enough to hurt Cell so that is why Cell to advantage of the speed factor but when you can't be hurt by any of your enemys attack (hell he took a seemly Chou Kamehameha inches away at full power without finching) even their speed would not help the factor out as seen when Vegeta finally attacked Broly. He used speed but Broly was unaffected. So as for the speed issues that is a hard depate there. Heat P 02:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree Heat, I actually don't really recall any info on LSSJ's speed. I myself don't have Diazenshuus, but I have talked to other people who do. I think the info about his speed should be removed until we find a source. PS: Be careful In Iraq Heat, okay? If you ever just wanna chat one on one: thesuperelitesaiyan@zoomshare.com. :). Heck! If anyone wants to talk, it's my email. Take care! --MajinVegeta 22:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe you should contact User:Julian Grybowski. He is part of the daizex.com site we've been using to cite most of our articles. Julian and VegettoEX are on Wikipedia already but VegettoEX hasn't been active here for quite some time. I believe he can be reached at VegettoEX@aol.com or through the forums on his site. -- bullet proof  3:16 22:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Source Change
I think it would be wise to change the source of Super Saiyan Transformations, Daizenshuu EX has several flaws that I can note. First off, they refer to Giji (False) Super Saiyan as "Quasi" Super Saiyan, refer to original Super Saiyan as SSJ1, and they use anime info, and don't go by the manga info for transformation. I am thinking about changing the source as soon as I find a good Super Saiyan guide. Opinions? --MajinVegeta 01:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Saiyanredhair.jpg
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dates
seeing the change to the fourth paragraph of text for this article, the dates for all official parts should be included, or an article should be made specifically for both the anime and the manga. this should be done to all information that changes between the anima and manga or the content is biase to one side of the story and not remaining neutral --Ditre 02:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't believe it's biase, because it is what it is. I included the discrepencies a while ago, but someone decided that it should be erased and changed to the 30 year period, which according to the manga and the corresponding episode, the 30 year period is inaccurate. Also we should note that the manga is the higest level of canon (I know that we aren't supposed to talk about canon and non-canon here, but I firmly believe that this conversation warrents a mention of it), and Toriyama had direct connection to the manga, as opposed to the movies where he did not. Both the manga and corresponding anime episode (DBZ episode 2) states that Planet Vegeta was destroyed roughly 3 years before Raditz's arrival on Earth. And most of the movies aren't even consistent with the timeline of Dragon Ball, therefore I believe that the anime series date and the manga date should be used as dates and time periods are quite often mixed and tweaked in the movies. And this goes for all the Dragon Ball related movies, not only the ones in question. --MajinVegeta 22:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey I know this is a month late and a dollar short but I have an advise to see what is going on with the date thing. See as the manga/ beginning of DBZ say the destrution of Planet Vegeta was only a few years before Raditz arrived but What does the panel say during Freeza's jogged memories of Burdock say as it took place many manga chapters later and explains in short his envolvment also those panel are taking from Burdock's special and not the other way around or what other references state in the manga. I know it is the main canon source but if something later then Raditz arrive says different than it should be that as remember (specuation) Raditz was off on another mission and shot maybe was sent to a planet like Goku was and told it was destroyed then whan he returned. Remember that is a speculation and theroy but is warranted for this little discussion. But check the panels during Freeza and Goku's fight to verify more. not back just stopping by. Heat P 11:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Once every thousand years, or just 1,000 yrs since the last Super Saiyan?
I have read through the mangas and watched the anime (Japanese) and I don't think that it states that a Super Saiyan emerges every thousand years, I believe it states that it had been a thousand years since the last Super Saiyan. If this is the case, then it does not mean that a Super Saiyan emerges EVERY millenia. Anyone care to elaborate? --MajinVegeta 03:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * From the manga (most canon of sources) volume 8 (DB #24) page 52, Vegeta says "They say a Super Saiyan appears only once in a thousand years... I've always said it was just a myth... and I was sure that even if it were possible... the only warrior who could possibly become one... was me!" I'm changing it back.Detective X 05:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * But, does that constitute every thousand years? That's my question. --VorangorTheDemon 20:07, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In order for the thousand years factor of the myth to hold any ground, it would have had to at least happened twice or more in the so-called past, no? Just saying...Detective X 05:00, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I was just wondering because before it said, "every thousand years", and I also did not believe that it ever stated that.--VorangorTheDemon 05:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

This myth doesn't seem to hold because there was more than just one super saiyan in the time of Dragon Ball: Goku,Vegeta,Trunks,Gohan,Goten,Goku Jr.,Vegeta Jr. That myth is pretty much out the window. --(unsigned)


 * I agree. However, it was introduced as a legend, and its deteriorating status as a legend (due to more people gaining access to it) is already noted in the article. --VorangorTheDemon 15:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Add a "regular form"?
I was just wondering if we should add a "Regular Form" to the list, because I feel that if you don't, it's kinda like cruft. You don't really know what's going on if you aren't a fan. Suggestions? --VorangorTheDemon 22:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Explanation in "Ki" needed
We need an explanation on what exactly ki is because the transformations don't make sense then. The first time Ki is mentioned in the article is in the False Super Saiyan section, and there's no explanation to what it is. --VorangorTheDemon 15:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Merging
This topic and the Oozaru topic could possibly be merged into a "Saiyan Transformation" article. --74.194.118.12 20:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC) or --JeremyStalnaker 20:37, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The reason behind this is Oozaru and Super Saiyan are both the same subject, which is Saiyan transformation. They can be placed together collectively because of this into a more convenient page. The separation isn't required at all. --JeremyStalnaker 12:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 2 Future Gohan
Should Future Gohan be listed as a SSJ2? He transformed into one during his time in the Dead Realm in Dragon Ball Z: Shin Budokai - Another Road. While I understand that the video games hold the lowest form of canon, however, like the movies the game tells an original story. Unlike the majority of the movies, the game's story could be squeezed into the actual time line like Bojack Unbound & Wrath of the Dragon. Since info from the movies, such as False Super Saiyan & Legendary Super Saiyan are included, would it be okay to add Future Gohan to the list? 4.252.208.180 22:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Future Gohan = Gohan. // Decaimiento Poético  22:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * True Poetic Decay, but also Gohan in the alternate timeline never achieved Super Saiyan 2. --VorangorTheDemon 21:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the entire first post of this discussion is how he did achieve Super Saiyan 2 and whether or not it should be added to the article due to the source.4.252.214.238 07:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter. It's a video game, DBZ video games can't be used as reference because it isn't real information. I think it was in Budokai 3 Future Trunks also had access to Super Saiyan 2. that doesn't mean that they achieved it in the series or that it states anywhere else that they did. It's not in the Daizenshuus (Official Dragon Ball guides certified by Toriyama himself), A simple video game appearence doesn't change the facts.--VorangorTheDemon 19:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It's pretty much futile to hope someone actually reads the first post about how the game tells an original story not canon to the manga or anime in the same way the movies are and how the movie info is inserted anyway and such.

Why Future Gohan wasn't added to the list and Future Trunks was
Future Gohan is not historically individual enough to be considered separate from Gohan of the primary timeline. Both of the Trunks characters have enough individual info to be considered separate characters, even though they are genetically the same person. Also if you want to add Future Gohan to the list, then we'd also have to add Future Goku and Future Vegeta for consistency. They, technically speaking, are part of that time line as well. Not to mention the link that was provided leads to the regular Gohan article anyway, there's no sense in having two separate links for the same article. --VorangorTheDemon 09:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Future Gohan had a lot more 'impact' and a longer appearance compared to Future Vegeta. But you have a good point, answer me this: were you trying to gel the point where Trunks was able to travel through time, meet his younger self in several succession allowing him to be listed as an individual? Because I could clearly understand that, case closed. --Seong0980 15:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, that is true, but that wasn't my point exactly. My point was that the two characters (even though they are genetically the same person) have been brought up completely different, have fought completely different battles, lived in a completely different environment for their entire lives, which does in turn make them individual characters. Gohan's environment was only different for the time after the Freeza saga, which makes him some-what separate, but not entirely considering that the most important chunk of his life was completely identicle to his character from the primary timeline. --VorangorTheDemon 02:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I have to say that was pretty well put. --Seong0980 22:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Bio-Broly
Is Bio-Broly considered a different character then Broly? I don't think he is. --VorangorTheDemon 02:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Bio-Broly is a clone, he is not Broly (He looks like a melting zombie).Pikazilla 19:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

If Bio-Broly isn't Broly, then he's an entirely different character. -12.210.215.231 06:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Why discuss Bio-Broly on the Super Saiyan page?-- $U IT  19:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Because People keep adding Bio-Broly to the page as a separate character. --VorangorTheDemon 02:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This list?-- $U IT  03:06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, they kept putting him as a separate character on the lists. --VorangorTheDemon 06:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Restricted Super Saiyan
Since a special section was dedicated to Goku's transformation into False Super Saiyan, should there be a section explaining what Broly's Restricted Super Saiyan form was? It is a unique transformation with blue hair, green eyes, and a darkening of the skin instead of lightening. 4.252.211.72 08:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No for two reasons. "Restricted" is not a name, and Broly's form was just a full Super Saiyan form. Nothing really special about it really. Just the weird blue hair caused by the control device on his head. -- bullet proof  3:16 16:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
I think most of us can agree that Vegeta was most definetly a Super Saiyan 2. It is clearly stated and shown in both the manga, the show, and the video games. To say otherwise can only be seen as ignorance on the subject. I say this only because one particular person keeps removing Vegeta's name from the list of known Super Saiyan 2s--Lucky Mitch 01:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be two particular people. I don't know what you're talking about, but I don't remember Vegeta ever achieving SS2 in any of the media you listed. // Decaimiento Poético  01:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Majin Vegeta is clearly shown at SS2, and even out-right stated by Gohan. And Vegeta is clearly SS2 in his non-majin state when ever you see electricity in his aura. Sometimes there is also no electricity in the auras of all Super Saiyan 2s and 3s, I assume the artists considered insignificant. Different artists draw Dragonball Z characters slightly differently with there own style. There is MORE THAN ONE artist of Dragonball Z. And in Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2 the video game, Vegeta even has his Super Saiyan 2 form playable. Read the Vegeta article Super Saiyan 2 section in Wikipedia for more info. I suggest rewatching the episodes if possible to see for yourself.--Lucky Mitch 01:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

In case you still have trouble believing me, look at this page--Lucky Mitch 01:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Woh woh woh. I didn't even see that it was being added to the Super Saiyan 2 section! I thought it was being added to the Full power Super Saiyan section. Yeah Vegeta was a SSJ 2. My bad.-- bullet proof  3:16 02:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 2 Vegetto and Gotenks
I was wondering if we could also place Vegetto and Gotenks in the known Super Saiyan 2s section. Gotenks must have reached Super Saiyan 2 in order to get to Super Saiyan 3 and there is clearly electricity and very spiky hair on Vegetto.

I have evidence proving Vegetto's Super Saiyan 2 transformation in this video (skip to 0:49 if you just want to get to the point)

And I have these pictures,,,.

(UNSIGNED POST ENDS HERE)

The best way I can put it in the way it was explained to me is that the only ones listed are the ones we actually see use the form. It's perfectly safe to assume that Vegetto and Gotenks could use SSJ2 (Goku explained that you needed to access SSJ3 through SSJ2). However, we never actually see them use the forms so they aren't listed. In the anime, whether a character had the correct appearance in SSJ2 was subject to the artist (in SSJ2 Goku vs. Majin Vegeta fight, sometimes they were drawn as if they were SSJ as evidenced by Goku's five groups of hair in front of his face over the only 3 he should have in SSJ2) and with the sparks in the aura added at random times with no consistency makes it hard to spot sometimes, but the Daizenshuu states Vegetto was only seen as a SSJ when fighting Buu. In the manga, when Vegetto first transforms, he has sparks, but never again and his hair isn't drawn to be any longer than what it was in his base form so he's apparently only SSJ in the manga too since Toriyama always had sparks in the auras of his SSJ2 pics. Apparently a picture isn't worth a thousand words here either because I agree that your first picture appears to be a SSJ2 Vegetto (and if I remember correctly, it originally had SSJ2 Goku & SSJ2 Vegeta in the background) but it was argued earlier about adding Future Gohan to the SSJ2 list due to official artwork released by Toei and Shin Budokai 2 having an original story just like the movies being denied. You can sleep at night knowing that Vegetto and Gotenks can go SSJ2, but try to let it go that they'll probably be deleted if you add them to the article.4.252.210.192 02:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Its perfectly safe to assume so and so did this... sure, on a forum or fansite. Unfortunately for your argument, Wikipedia policy does not allow speculation, assumptions, theories, or any other sort of Originla Research in articles. Because there is no official, verified evidence supporting your claim, Vegetto, Gogeta, and Gotenks cannot be added to the list of individuals who achieved Super Saiyan 2.-- bullet proof  3:16 03:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it ouright stated in the Daizenshuus that Vegetto only goes SSJ against Buu? Madness 01:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure, but it isn't stated that he was Super Saiyan 2. --VorangorTheDemon 12:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

VorangorTheDemon please respond
I have one question and one statement.

Question:

Since when are we only going by the manga version and not the animie version? I don't see how it can hurt to mention both the manga's and the show's version of the series?

Statement:

I have several pictures of Super Saiyan eyes upclose. I spent alot of time looking at all the shades of green they most closely resemble and it came down to Teal in the dark and Persian green in the light. I thought it was just a little bit closer to teal (of course that is strictly my opinion, if they look more Persian green to you, that's fine we can change it to that) but I can assure you they are most definitley NOT light green.

See for yourself in these pictures:

(Vegeta), , , , , , ,

(Trunks), , , , , ,

(Gohan), , , , , ,

(Goku), , , , , ,

(Goten), , , , , ,

--Lucky Mitch 01:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Lucky Mitch, I advice that you take whichever disputes you may have to our project's talk page at WP:DBZ for a quicker response. -- bullet proof  3:16 01:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Known Users-Shown/Seen and Confirmed Users
Perhaps if we change the Known Users title to Shown or Seen and Confirmed Users, we would have less confusion among contributers and in turn have more accurate lists of the Super Saiyan form's users.--Lucky Mitch 01:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see a difference, really. It's the same message, just a bit longer. // Decaimiento Poético  01:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

If we put in the shown or seen part, people will stop putting characters in the sections when they assume the attained the level.--Lucky Mitch 11:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Poetic Decay, I also don't see a difference, to me it's the same. The character can't be a known user if no one has seen them in the form. For example, Vegeta is not a known user of Super Saiyan Di San Denki (3rd grade), he is a suggested user. That is the difference. All other Super Saiyans are not known users of Giji Super Saiyan (False), but there's no doubt that they could half transform into a Super Saiyan, which by definition would be a Giji Super Saiyan. Therefore they are suggested users, and not known users simply because they have never displayed the form. Same with Gotenks and Vegetto with Super Saiyan 2, See my point? What we could do is require reference for the quotes or data which clearly states that the characters achieved the levels, if you can't supply a reference and no one else can find one, they shouldn't be able to be added. --VorangorTheDemon 23:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I completely understand what you are saying and agree with you 100%. There is no difference, but others are obviously not getting the point that the user has to be seen using the form in the series. Maybe the word "Known" is not specific enough for some people. Think of this: We KNOW Gotenks could go Super Saiyan 2 since he reached Super Saiyan 3, but we never actually SEE it. Another example, Vegetto would appear to be in the Super Saiyan 2 form, but it was never CONFIRMED. Maybe changing the words to "Seen and Confirmed" will get through to more people. It's worth a shot at least.--Lucky Mitch 01:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, but that's why I suggested in my last comment that we require official references to be sited. (Original quotes, (not dub ones) official lists, ect.). But do what ever you want, A change like this may have a better effect, even though it's only a minor change. But about the reference thing that I suggested, that would not only make it more difficult to add characters to lists, but it will also improve the verifiablity of the article, and that is a very good thing :)
 * Also off subject, I noticed that the article is not consistent because some forms have the actual way to pronounce the names (ex: sūpā saiya-jin) (or whatever). I was hoping that the rest of them could be added to enhance the consistency of the article. --VorangorTheDemon 23:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistencies created by Toei section
I have removed this section as it contains numerous unverified and unsourced claims which constitutes as original research. -- bullet proof  3:16 01:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 2 of GT Trunks for Sure/ Goten???
Hey it's obvious that Trunks reached Super Saiyan 2 when Baby 1ST TRIED TO TAKE OVER HIS BODY. HE HAD THE ENERGY WAVE COMING FROM HIS BODY A CLEAR SUPER SAIYAN 2 TRAIT (NOT SUPER SAIYAN OR FULL POWER SUPER SAIYAN). Also I'm pretty Sure Goten went to Super Saiyan 2 to fight Gohan when he took over his body. Otherwise why would Gohan even bother going Super Saiyan 2??? Also it would make much more sense that both Trunks and Goten would reach Super Saiyan 2 in order to push Gotenks to Super Saiyan 3. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcelite (talk • contribs) 05:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Super Saiyan 2 never appears in GT, and neither Trunks or Goten ever were confirmed to have achieved the transformation ever in the series (GT included). --VorangorTheDemon 07:13, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Pictures
Since the descriptions of the Super Saiyans are as according to the manga appearence, don't you think it's more appropriate to have manga images, and not anime ones? I'm going to add several manga images that I've uploaded from scanning my volumes of manga. Is that ok? --VorangorTheDemon 01:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Perfect, I congragulate you on finaly geting some decent Manga images. DBZROCKS   Its over 9000!!!  12:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you DBZROCKS, I worked hard to scan, and I'm exicted that no one has reverted it. If they do, I'll be quite p*ssed. I just figured: "Manga descriptions.....Manga images", it made much more sense then saying that we'd do the manga descroptions with the anime screens. All of the manga pics except the Super Saiyan 2 and 3 ones are from my personal collection. And I will attempt to fix those references that you pointed out when I have the time. Thanks again!--VorangorTheDemon 13:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Fat Super Saiyan??
What the hell is this? Looks like vandalism to me. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 04:52, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course it's vandalism, there's no such thing as a "Fat Super Saiyan". And in addition, the vandalism is an ill attempt at humor. I mean get real, if you're going to vandalize, at least spare us the annoyance by making the vandalism amusing. All this vandalism as of yet has been simple, immature jokes that only fourth graders laugh at. But luckily, there hasn't been a lot of it too much lately. :) --VorangorTheDemon 10:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

== Too many fair use pictures... ==

Guys, really cut like all but two (or three) useful images before a sysop comes here to delete all of them per WP:NONFREE. According to this, I'm compelled to remove all of them but instead I'd rather leave this warning for the experts on this page. Now as for which pics to keep, I'd say Image:Super Saiyans.JPG, Image:SSJ3GokuEarlyart.JPG, and Image:SSJ4gokuvegeta.jpg — the rest are manga images (why not use anime ones in the first place?) Regardless, please consider what I've conveyed. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 17:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've removed all but four: The image showing all Super Saiyans, the original Super Saiyan state, Super Saiyan 3, and Super Saiyan 4. There are major differences between the three states I just listed (as opposed to the slight physical appearance change of body mass in the Grade 2 and 3 SS states and Legendary SS, and the addition of lighting in SS2), so keeping them is somewhat important. // Decaimiento Poético  18:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I really don't see why Image:DragonballZ-Episode286 300.jpg is needed. It may as well be removed since we already have Image:Super Saiyans.JPG wonderfully captivating the Super Saiyan 1st forms. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 20:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Because the "Super Saiyans" image that you're talking about simply portrays the characters in the series who achieve it: The point of the article is to portray the actual form itself, not the characters who use it. I added the manga images because since we are adament about using manga descriptions for the forms, it makes absolutely no sense to use anime pictures unless it is a non-canon form (Giji Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 4). --VorangorTheDemon 08:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I know you have good meaning but there is a copyright policy, sorry. IMHO, manga images should only be used if there are no anime ones. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 00:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well isn't there a copyright policy for the anime ones too, unless they were ones that were released by Toei themselves? Technically speaking, all the images that are being used are copyrighted, even that "Super Saiyans" one, which (as far as I know) is a scan from the Daizenshuus that someone did, licensed person or not.--VorangorTheDemon 10:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * My point being, an image for every section goes against image usage policy. And yes, any and all images are copyrighted. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 22:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up :) --VorangorTheDemon 10:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

My advice is to combine pictures like in this Ichigo Kurosaki. There is no need for a full power image as it is identical to the common one.--Tintor2 11:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Umm... About the super saiyan 2 users...
Ok, the list of Super Saiyan 2 users has Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. But shouldn't Broly also count as a user? I mean, I'm pretty sure that Broly very briefly transformed into that state in the 8th movie (I mean, there WAS lightning enveloping around him while he was powering up to the Legendary Super Saiyan form [in fact, considering that in his first fight with Goku, that white aura that usually appears when powering up was at least 100x his size, it seems very likely that it was that.].). now, if it turns out i am mistaken, i will withdraw it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.159.24 (talk) 20:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I hate to say it, but numerous other characters have lightning around them as well, but in order for them to be added to the list, they have to be confirmed users as stated in the Daizenshuu (official Dragon Ball guide authorized by Dragon Ball creator Akira Toriyama). Also as a side note, Super Saiyan 2 lightning is blue, Broly's is yellow. We've had this problem before with people adding random names to the lists, that's why I placed internal tags on the lists that you see when you go to edit the page. (They look something like this: ). There's no more confirmed users beyond those three for Super Saiyan 2. Even though characters like Gotenks and Vegetto for example were without a doubt able to use it, they are never officially stated to have been seen in that form, therefore they aren't confirmed users. --VorangorTheDemon 22:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Umm... Actually, I just checked, the lightning that was enveloping around Broly IS actually blue. I don't know where you got the yellow from, but it is indeed blue and not yellow. If you have the 8th movie with you, watch the scene "control" and get to about 35:32-35:43 minutes into the film, you will see what I mean. but, since it apparantly isn't mentioned in the Daizenshuus, I'll let it go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.159.24 (talk) 23:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Where'd Giji Go?
Is there a reason to why it's gone? Tell you the truth, I wouldn't mind if we didn't re-add it to the list, it's not exactly a transformation anyway. We could mention it in a different section though. --VorangorTheDemon 18:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

New Section- Removed Transformations
I noticed earlier that Giji Super Saiyan (False Super Saiyan) had been removed, and I decided that perhaps it would be best if it wasn't re-added, because it techincally speaking isn't a transformation, and I had always thought that it made the article messy because of the fact that the article started off with that transformation, and not actually the Super Saiyan transformation. So as a result, I decided to create a new section. I did however remove Legendary Super Saiyan because most of the info on it (other then appearence) is unconfirmed. We actually don't know what makes Legendary Super Saiyan so much stronger then the regular Super Saiyan forms (which it actually being stronger is complete bogus because both Gotenks and Vegetto were stronger then Broly in their regular Super Saiyan forms), therefore I added it to the new Section with the Giji Super Saiyan. I haven't really seen good reference for the Legendary Super Saiyan, there's not much elaboration on it at all, not even in the Daizenshuu. --VorangorTheDemon 16:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

That fact may be true may not be true legenday saiyan is stronger than a regular person for example the other saiyans didn't have much problems fighting him in regular Super Saiyan but they did when he went into Legendary saiyan status but think about it it also depends on the person EX: Normal Vegito was stronger than super buu when he absorbed gohan and super buu was generally stronger than super saiyan gotenks so it may all just depend on the person as well. The super saiyans just boost your power and doesn't make you stronger than all the other people who aren't one Shroudnin 23:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The fight between Vegetto in his normal state and Buu/Gohan was only in the anime, it never happened in the original manga series. In the manga he goes Super Saiyan a few seconds after he's fused. But I also see your point, Vegetto and Gotenks aren't normal Super Saiyans like Goku or whoever else. And also regardless, Legendary Super Saiyan was not in the original series either, it was a form made up by Toei in order to emphasize the original fact presented that there was single legendary Super Saiyan. --VorangorTheDemon 14:36, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Legendary Super Saiyan
In the text it is stated that "The legend also originally stated that only one Super Saiyan would emerge in a thousand years; this is later contradicted when another Super Saiyan appears one year later. As a result, the legendary status of the Super Saiyan ceases (...)"

I might be wrong but there IS a Legendary Super Saiyan which happens to be the most powerful being in the Universe -- Broly. He would be the depositary of such legends, having Son Goku, Vegeta, etc only achieved a superior state, but without being... you know, legendary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.153.135.67 (talk) 03:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The "legend" section is strictly based on the account of the Super Saiya-jin told in the original manga series. Broly was not part of the original series; he was simply a character created by Toei. Also as a side note Broly being a superior Super Saiya-jin is bogus because both Gotenks and Vegetto surpass him in their regular Super Saiya-jin forms. --VorangorTheDemon 07:20, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

SSJ4
Is it worth noting that Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru designed SSJ4? I'm trying to find the direct quote, but I recall Toriyama saying as much in a statement regarding Japan's DBGT Dragon Box release. Onikage725 13:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

You speak the truth. The same box set has a picture of SSJ4 Goku drawn by Toriyama commenting that he didn't design it and asks us if he did a good job. I think it's worth noting, since we've gone as far as to say it's not part of the canon series. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.210.213.220 (talk) 06:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe it's worth mentioning, however, sourcing it is going to be an issue.--VorangorTheDemon 13:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)