Talk:Super Smash Bros./Archive 5

Archive
The page was getting long again. I've shoved it all into an archive, so feel free to bring back any active discussions.  You Can '  t See Me!  23:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

SSBB Picture
I know this subject has been mentioned once already, but I thin we should put another picture for the Brawl section of the article, because (even though that picture was launched from the official site) that picture is fake. You can see that by looking at Mario and Pikachu's symbols. They are all from Melee. Also, it really doesn't capture the "feel" of the game. I think we should put the picture where Mario, DK, Peach, and Samus are fighting, in which is found on the section about Wi-Fi Play on the official site. Mr. Mario 192 20:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * ...How can it be fake if it's from Dojo? No, it's fine. >_> -Sukecchi 02:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not think it is from Dojo. 68.76.120.240 11:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)Kinz The photo was launched right on the beggining of the game's production of story and multiplayer. Of course they didn't have time to fix the symblos. I agree with Mr.Mario 192. Rglong 22:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with it. They're just symbols. All we need is something showing Brawl in action. It's not a big deal. Be more concerned with other things about the article. Like vandalism and useless information. Besides, 'fake' isn't the word to use in this situation. It's 'outdated'. -Sukecchi 03:03, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, still it's better for the article not use outdated photos. The Wi-Fi image is Brawl in action, and, because shows online action, it would enrich the article. Mr. Mario 192 23:05, 23 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.209.139 (talk)
 * Why does it have to be that Wifi image? Technically, EVERY image on that site is of Brawl in action. Are you basing 'in action' on the damage meter being in the screenshot? -Sukecchi 12:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Feel free to be bold and change the image if you feel the need to replace it.  You Can '  t See Me!  08:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Citations Needed
Where is any sorce for this footnote under the playable charactor's list? I have not seen this officially stated yea or nay. By the way, if you are looking for a non-stand alone character you ought to add Giga Bowser to the list, seeing that he's playable in Brawl. The thing is would he be under the Mario or the Smash Bros Series of Origin? --209.247.5.142 08:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * ZSS is a completely separate character from Samus according to the list, whereas Giga Bowser is nothing more than a temporary transformation according to Bowser's profile. There's a difference between breaking off into a new character (ex: Zelda/Shiek; Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard) and temporarily ubering up (ex: any character after attaining a Metal Box).
 * As for your initial concern, here is the source: . The article needs more sourcing in general.  You Can '  t See Me!  08:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I just checked that cite; it says she transforms but it never says that that's the only way to become Zero-Suit. --WhereIsTheCite? 06:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's another source. This one is ZSS's profile, which notes that Samus becomes ZSS if her suit is destroyed. Come to think of it, though, the Final Smash is pointed out as a way to destroy her suit, but it is never stated to be the only way. I'll rephrase it slightly; however, the note about them being linked ought to stay, since the transformation does have a source.  You Can '  t See Me!  06:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Not trying to start a big fight but Pokemon Trainer is one character, Zelda and sheik; Samus and Zero Suit Sumas are sepprate characters, Just to keep it all strait. See Talk:Super Smash Bros. (series)/Archive 4. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 041744 (talk • contribs) 13:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course, of course. I was just pointing out every transformation that popped into my head. Heh, sorry...  You Can '  t See Me!  20:21, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Except that with Zelda/Shiek and Pokemon Trainer you can go back. With Samus/ZSS you can't. It's unique so far. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  15:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * We don't know for a fact that you can't change back. True, it's unlikely, but it could be possible. The world&#39;s hungriest paperweight 16:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Im my opinion I think Zero Suit Samus is unlockable after Samus does the "Final Smash." Do you really think if you wanted to play a Zero Suit Samus you would have to do the Final Smash over and over. There not that stupid...The Wii Guy 15:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Makes sense, but let's wait until we get word from Nintendo before we do too much speculation. The world&#39;s hungriest paperweight 16:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The author of the web site has fun uploading little surprises, one painful little piece at a time.  He wrote "When Samus destroys her Power Suit, she’s left with the Zero Suit."  ...such a clever little discovery.  "It looks like you can throw the pieces of her suit that end up on the ground!"  I think that Samus will be able to change back and forth, without destroying her suit.  However, after she uses the Smash Ball (Zero Laser) she will be stuck as Zero Suit Samus.  -Teac77 20:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a place for "I think..."! It's a place for what you know. Keep speculation, even in the talk page, to a minimum, please. :) Coreycubed 13:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Brawl Bosses
Saying that Petey Piranha is a non-playable character is merely speculation at this point. For all we know he can be playable unless someone somewhere said that you can't play as him. 70.17.0.102 19:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC) Petey does not have a profile on Dojo. 68.76.120.240 11:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC) Kinz Here is petey's piranha's "profile" on dojo!!, they say he is the first boss of adventure mode, not playable as far as we know. Unless we find out you actually can play him (her, it?) we can still list petey under NPC Bosses.→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  21:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't say I didn't see his profile. I'm just saying that nowhere does it say that that Petey isn't playable. Until its proven that you cannot play as him, listing him as an NPC boss is pure speculation. Remember we hate speculation here on wikipediaMavrickindigo 12:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

It does say, quite specifically, that he is an NPC. He may be unlockable -- such guesses themselves are speculation, quite the opposite of what you're trying to say. You can't invalidate something we know just by saying we can't prove it's not what you're saying. Coreycubed 13:40, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Pokémon Trainer once again...
Previously there was some discussion over whether or not Pokémon Trainer should be listed or if his Pokémon should be (Archive 3#Pokemon Trainer and Archive 4#Pokemon Trainer...again). Anyhow it was decided to list it as "Pokémon Trainer" but with a note (Note: I supported this decision). In these discussions I pointed out the fact that Pokémon Trainer's Final Smash whether it was a singular one or a different one for each Pokémon would be a piece of evidence for this discussion. Well with the revelation that "Pokémon Trainer" has the one final smash which gives weight to the current decision. I thought this should be brought up here due to the nature of things to come up repeatedly here. The Light6 14:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This has already been discussed in the past, and I think we should keep the article the way it is in regards to the Pokemon Trainer. Ixistant 23:04, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * So do I it's just that discussions have a habit of coming back so I felt that with the info on the Final Smash being revealed that it should noted here in case the issue was to brought up again with people who argue against the current decision. The Light6 23:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Plus, it has been confirmed that for those thumbnails (the ones with character faces that would vanish in stock matches), he has his own face. Not Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard. Oubliette 01:33, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ditto
Someone brought this to my attention for possible inclusion in the character list. Ditto was technically a selectable character in Melee, see the note. The whole point to Ditto in Pokemon is that he transforms into your opponent, so I'm unsure if to count how he functions in Melee against him. (As he's not just a one time random character select, but changes for every match so has his own unique function and does have his own unique character portrait). Anyway, I'm not really good at editing and don't know how people feel about this. So I wanted to bring it to discussion. It's comparable to the character Charade in Soulcaliber II, and in that game that character is considered its own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.187.217 (talk • contribs)
 * Personally I don't think we should bother, since Ditto never got an actual profile at the Melee incarnation of Dojo, and since the only evidence seen of him is his picture in this version of character select; you don't see him on-screen changing into the character during a match. Arrowned 23:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comparing Ditto to Charade is a failed argument, as Charade doesn't change his appearance, save for weapons, and it has its own profile and backstory. Ditto has no such thing. Ditto's just a fancy way of showing a random character. He's not playable.Satoryu 00:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Why sould innocent people not be allowed to edit this page? If someone is doing something they should'nt do, then just have them banned. Simple as that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.131.145.228 (talk) 03:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The point in semiprotecting an article is to limit the number of people who can access a high-traffic article, since those sorts of articles are prone to vandalism and speculation as is this one. By limiting the number of people to those who actually know the rules, we won't have to worry about banning those innocent people who unintentionally cause problems.  You Can '  t See Me!  03:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Well I don't like it.69.131.145.228 05:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)Spencer Rhodes
 * While I understand your feelings, I have to say, annoying a few anonymous editors who'd like to help is more preferable than having to revert 30 vandalism edits a day. Vandalism is rampant around here when the article isn't protected in any way, and it's very frustrating to have to deal with that on a nonstop basis. Arrowned 06:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure this is necesary?69.131.145.228 06:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)Spencer Rhodes
 * Very. Understandably you wouldn't know about the amounts of vandalism pages on Wikipedia tend to experience without having been editing articles for a while, but it can easily reach levels of insanity.  Check out WP:VAN and WP:MVP for more info. Arrowned 06:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm the one who argued about Kirby being in the ssb brawl article, and I would like to apologise. I think I was being a bit to selfish. Now everyone who discussed it with me hates me. I just thought I'd apologise.69.131.145.228 06:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)Spencer Rhodes


 * I doubt "hate" is the right word. Granted, you may have annoyed some people, but one of the benefits of being an IP is that nobody will remember what you did a few days from now :)  You Can '  t See Me!  07:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Well if the people don't hate me,(which they probaly do) they definatlly are annoyed by me. I tried to apologise to everyone,(including sukecchi and satoryu) but I should probaly just shut up for a couple of days. I probaly deserve to be blocked by someone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.131.145.228 (talk • contribs)

About the character table
The character table here is nice, but can it be altered to include other things, like the total number of characters per game? I'd try to do it myself, but the article is protected and such. 72.225.211.5 09:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The table is for playable characters, not anything else. If you want to read how many characters are in each game, that can be in the game's article. What else would you want to add? -Sukecchi 10:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Lucas from Earthbound?
I was under the impression that Earthbound was only one game in the Mother series. Wouldn't it make more sense to say he was from the Mother series? Mavrickindigo 12:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Earthbound is the name international fans know the series under. It's more recognisable this way. -Jishmeister 12:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. Click the link next to Lucas' name for his series, you'll see it's the English Wikipedia page for the EarthBound / Mother series. Coreycubed 13:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Ness
I'm not sure but on Dojo, the way Sakurai said that Lucas maybe be better than Ness, looked like he was saying he is on Brawl. It looked like they were on the same game but comparing both characters. 71.101.209.139 17:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I know what you mean (I think). However, he didn't actually say that Ness is in Brawl. He's just (possibly) suggesting it. We shouldn't go any further into this until we have more info. The world&#39;s hungriest paperweight 22:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It may be noteable that Lucas was orignally gonna replace Ness in melee, but his game was cancelled or delayed, so Ness was kept. This may mean that they did'nt want Ness in the games anymore, but now that Lucas's games have come out, they're gonna do what they wanted to do in melee. That's what makes me think that Ness won't return. On a personal note, I did'nt like him anyway. But who knows, I may be wrong.69.131.145.228 02:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Spencer Rhodes
 * Well; if you didn't like Ness, you're probably not going to like Lucas all that much better; because apart from a different hairstyle & a slightly brighter colour palette, they don't appear to be all that different. My guess is that when Sakurai mentioned that Lucas may even surpass Ness, he was alluding to how Lucas is in all likelyhood Ness's "successor" (much like how Ike will likely be the successor to Marth & Roy). However, it is still at this point, of course; nothing but speculation. -Jishmeister 12:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Lucas IS Ness. In every version of Earthbound, the main character has psychic powers and is a kid. So Lucas and Ness are identical on these traits. I neither think we might add a "possible characters" table, Wikipedia is not an "I-think..." encyclopedia. But I`m talking like a mod. Actually, it just would take too much space. User: Gamesrcool
 * While eerily similar, Lucas is not the same character as Ness. They're from different games, have different appearences, and different powers.Satoryu 01:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Revolution?
Under the Brawl section, it says "Although a third Super Smash Bros. game had been announced long before E3 2006 known as Super Smash Bros. Revolution..." Wasn't that just a fan made title? Or was it officially referred to as Revolution? Dude902 18:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure, does anyone have a source? Also as the Wii was codenamed the Revolution it is quite possible that Brawl was originally codenamed Super Smash Bros. Revolution. However even if was codenamed that is it really even relevant to the article? The Light6 02:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It was probably just a placeholder title. Like how Twilight Princess was just called The Legend of Zelda when first announced. But yeah, it's not relevant. Deleting it now.Satoryu 02:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

SmashWiki
1.SmashWiki isnt "speculative" its simply a Wikipedia dedicated to Smash Brothers.

2. Many other articles list the Wiki's for the links, as should we.

3. It DOES belong on Wikipedia, since it IS one. Atomic Religione 02:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

(Didn't see above section get made; fused my section with this one) Myself and a few other users have tried including a link to SmashWiki at the bottom of the page, but apparently some other users (or at least 041744) don't think it should be here. As per his/her request, I've brought this to the talk page, and I'll start by presenting my reasoning: The purpose of linking to SmashWiki is to guide people to a wiki far more in-depth that Wikipedia with respect to the Smash Bros. series. Lots of wikis are linked to this way. Here's just one example. The world&#39;s hungriest paperweight 02:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 041744's main argument seems to be that SmashWiki doesn't pass WP:EL's list of links to be avoided; links need to be decided on a case-by-case basis using those rules, and the fact that other articles may link to individual Wikias shouldn't be a factor in SmashWiki's usage here. My counter-argument is that Wikia as a whole clearly passes Avoid #13 (and SmashWiki by itself has 1500+ editors, so there's no issue with "substantial number").  However, the site does fail #2: "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research."  As a Smash Bros. fan, we can pretty much guarantee everything on that site is factually accurate, but the site has little to no citations (which an extended trip to GameFAQs would fix up). Arrowned 04:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Seeing as so many people oppose this I would be bitter to have the site link if this disscussion fall your way, but I guess i can just grumble in the shadows, so now here is my arguement: the website's link has been reverted many times before I have done it, the link being removed by some else cuased me to continue to remove it myself. Here, here and here is some of their speculation on Sheik and Ganondorf. Infact, this site almost seems like a game guide at some places. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 041744 (talk • contribs) 11:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I find Arrowned's argument more convincing than your's, 041744. I don't see anything wrong with it having game-guide parts. After all, the entire Wiki is dedicated to the series. I'll admit that rule two is a problem though, but only partially because of sourcing. After all, the best place for info on a game is the game itself, and I'm sure that's where most of their information is from. The other problem with it would be the "factually inaccurate" part, a good example being the Sheik/Ganondorf thing, but these things can be fixed (especially once Brawl comes out in a couple months). That being said, I still think that we should link to SmashWiki, but I'm not as familiar with Wikipedia's rules as most of you probably are, so all I can really do is state my opinion. The world&#39;s hungriest paperweight 22:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course, there are a huge amount of things that are completely wrong, and much speculation on the site. --Mr.Mario 192 22:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Same with the other Wikias ButI dont see them being removed.Atomic Religione 23:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think "Same with the other Wikias ButI dont see them being removed" is really a valid argument. Simply because other articles on Wikipedia aren't as good doesn't mean we should use them as an example. Also, I see links to Wikis removed all the time because they do fail criterion 13 which is simply a measure of their stability. Any Wikis that aren't removed suggest that they are stable. Axem Titanium 00:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Meh whataver I dont give a crap anymore take it out if you want. Atomic Religione 02:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Um A.R, I like you and all but I'm not sure that "crap" is a word that you should say. It just sounds unintellegent. Lets just stop this arguement before this gets out of hand. I know this is a talk page, but dose there really need to be an arguement on here?Green Kirby 03:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You should read WP:CENSOR. It basically says that Wikipeida isn't censored for expletives such as crap or hell or bastard. Also, It doesn't do any good to suggest that a discussion should stop. Discussion will cease when the subject at hand has been decided upon. -Sukecchi 18:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Crap suits me fine thanks. Atomic Religione 18:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Just trying to help.Green Kirby 21:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well would the addition of the link improve the article? If it did we could ignore the rules about external links. However if does not then the link seems unnecessary. The Light6 01:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Sonic confirmed
http://wii.ign.com/articles/826/826130p1.html please check 14:24. 189.153.74.240 05:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I just saw this as well, it looks like is confirmed unless it is an elaborate hoax or something else. I'll leave it on the page unless it is later proven false. The Light6 05:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know. Lets not add him to the playable character list for now. I think I need a little more proof than that.Green Kirby 06:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, somewhat. IGN is definitely a credible site, but it has been known to jump the gun and make large claims in the past, some of which have turned out to be erroneous. I don't know that we ought to wait until Sonic gets a Dojo!! profile, but we definitely ought to wait for a second perspective from another party present at the presentation.  You Can '  t See Me!  06:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * He was added on the list and I deleted him.Green Kirby 06:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If the news is real then I would expect today's Dojo update to confirm it. Since the site updates in about half an hour (unless it is delayed which some character revelations have had) so we might have confirmation soon. The Light6 06:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Mabey, but for now leave it as it is. I don't know about you, but I'm gonna stay up until there is the new dojo update.Green Kirby 06:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course, Dojo made us wait a while for the Meta Knight and Snake updates. Jeff Silvers 06:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Dojo!! did make us wait for Meta Knight and Snake, but those two were already confirmed in a first-party video. All we have for Sonic right now is a third-party report, which was traced back to a Japanese blog of an unknown person/party.  You Can '  t See Me!  06:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * From what I've seen, the updates are usally realeased between 2:30 and 3:00.Green Kirby 06:46, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * They're updated at midnight, PST. (I think thats the proper zone..It's where I am anyways) Dengarde ► Complaints 06:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * They update at the same time every weekday, which for me is 5pm, but regardless when it updates is not important. What is important is whether they confirm Sonic or not. The Light6 06:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * All I can say is that if Sonic is'nt confirmed tonight, I'm gonna be very dissapointed.Green Kirby 07:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sonic confirmed on Dojo. The Light6 07:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And the Internet collectively sighs in relief. Keep your eyes peeled for vandal spikes, guys. Coreycubed 09:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Super Sonic
Just to shoot down any long-winded arguments before they even arise: yes, we all saw it; but you all know as well as I do that a character as blatantly overpowerful as Super Sonic could never be anything more than a Giga Bowser-esque temporary power up brought on by a Final Smash; & therefore does not qualify as a separate playable character. Or at least that was the Wikipedia standard last time I checked. Speculation or not; it doesn't take someone over 16 (sorry Spencer & others, I couldn't resist one last jab; which is what that last one was: a playful jab, nothing more) to have the good sense to agree that I'm probably right. - Jishmeister 13:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I have to admit, saying that I don't know anything is really offensive.Green Kirby 17:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There's video from E For All that shows and states Sonic's Final Smash is indeed Super Sonic. -Sukecchi 16:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Notes for Snake and Sonic
Considering that the article mentions that they are third party characters in the Brawl section, is it really necessary to mention it on the character table? It also has no impact on how they're used when fighting. It seems like a waste of space to me.Satoryu 20:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It weren't necessary, so I removed it. Dengarde ► Complaints 20:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thought so.Satoryu 20:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

About Sonic and Snake names
In the list of playable characters, shouldn't Snake and Sonic be named as their full names (Solid Snake and Sonic the Hedgehog, respectively)? At least, in the case of Snake, there are many Snakes in the Metal Gear series. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.40.8.42 (talk) 00:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that they should go by Sonic and Snake, because that's what they're called in the game. It's like how Princess Peach and Princess Zelda were changed to Zelda and Peach because of what they are called in the Smash Bros series, not what they're called in other games. Depressio 01:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Not only that, but Snake is never actually referred to on the site as 'Solid' (except in the original video; but that's, by now; too out of date to count); probably done on purpose to keep it canonically ambiguous (like how the Fire Emblem: Castle Siege stage is from no specific game in the series). - Jishmeister 14:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

The game refers to them as Sonic and Snake. For example Samus is listed as Samus, not Samus Aran and the same applies for the princesses like Jishmeister stated. User:Blowbagibway —Preceding comment was added at 20:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Sonic Snake and Lucas notes
They deserve notes because they were planned to be in Melee. and Claycrow 18:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

That's not relevant. 71.36.113.216 22:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

How so?Claycrow 23:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Because it's not appropriate for a character table. Leave it in a development section. Axem Titanium 00:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Captain Falcon Confirmed?
There's a third check mark by his name but there isn't any evidence of him being in there. Anonymous/new users can't edit the page so could someone fix that? 71.36.113.216 22:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's already been fixed. Arrowned 23:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Lyndis Confirmed
Lyndis (From Fire Emblem) appears in this trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_8niD-lSWo (At about 00:19) I would venture to guess she is a playable character, could someone add her to to list (Even if just as a question mark)?

Character info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndis#Lyndis

70.143.91.252 03:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

She is an assist trophy, not playable. Depressio 03:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Mmm, where did you get that data? Snarkeroid 03:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * She is an assist trophy, not playable. Dengarde ► Complaints 04:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Tables for Assist Trophies/Stages
Perhaps there should be more tables for those two subjects so that the article is more informative?

Alright, I'll admit the Assit Trophies table might be unneccessary, but perhaps you could bring up something about arenas at least, like how they represent certain games and often have little easter egss and secrets in them (and how the newer stages in Brawl have time-based secrets, like "Smashville's" Saturday night concert).

If none of this is reasonable then just delete this; I don't mind too much. ProjectPlatinum 16:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

There's already a discussion over on the Talk:Super Smash Bros. Brawl page regarding a new article for that purpose. I believe the consensus was to not create it. At any rate, it definitely doesn't belong here. Coreycubed 16:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, that's what I needed to know. ProjectPlatinum 16:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ProjectPlatinum (talk • contribs)


 * Help me understand why these particular sections are a bad idea for this article? This is about the Super Smash Bros. series as a whole, and includes sections for history and gameplay, and an enormous section on the characters featured in the series (including a list), which is just one part of what makes up the game.  Why should stages and items be different?STLocutus 16:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * So instead of reading the archives (here, for example), you went ahead, put in the table, got it reverted, and now you're asking the question? We've already been over this many times. This is not the place for such a table. Having the playable character section is almost too much detail as it is. Coreycubed 16:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The brief discussion you linked to contains the very short reasoning "the list is too long." Could you please elaborate on what makes a list "too long"?  If there is a particular policy that I am not seeing that defines the acceptable length of lists, I must have missed it.  More to the point, I believe that the stages and items in these games are an important part of them and deserve, at the very least, their own sections. STLocutus 16:55, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll wait for Satoryu or Sukecchi to chime in on this, but know that there is a pretty strong movement against adding this. As for policy, see WP:IINFO, WP:LISTCRUFT, and WP:NOT for general info (not all are policy). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coreycubed (talk • contribs)

You make it sound like I've been on Wikipedia for a long time. I'm actually rather new myself. Anyway, what's been said about stages and assists has been said all too many times. Unless you can think up a really convincing argument to include them, they won't be added to the article. They're still cruft no matter how you look at them, and there's no reason to list them here.Satoryu 18:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm touched my opinion matters, buku~ There are a few things wrong with including a list of stages. First of all, all you can basically say about any stage is a description of an image. That's all. Anything else you attempt to say about a stage is speculating. Secondly, it has no merit in an article by itself. There isn't enough data to support such an article. Now, as for assist trophies. Anything you say about what they do in battle is going into game guide stuff. Which a big no no. My answer is still no to both of these, buku. -Sukecchi 19:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I've read through the topics Corey linked and, in simple terms, it appears that a list should only be part of an article if all (or most) of the items in the list are important enough to have their own separate article. I can see now how a list of items/stages would more or less be "information for the sake of information".  Thanks for the assistance, and sorry about being a bother. STLocutus 19:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Blood Falcon and Daisy
Should they be listed as playable, but with a note regarding their playability? Claycrow 17:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

What!?? Atomic Religione 18:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

No, as they are just skins for Captain Falcon and Peach, respectively. They are not separate characters. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  18:24, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

What about Dr. Mario, and Young Link, I know they have their own squares, but do they count then? Claycrow 22:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Dr. Mario and Young Link are listed because they're not just alt-colors; they're actually characters choosable on the character select screen with their own movesets that are different from the person they're based on. Blood Falcon and Daisy are not unique characters with individual movesets. Arrowned 22:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

If you win a game as Blood Falcon, it still says that Captain Falcon's the winner, meaning C. Falcon is the character. Dr. Mario and Young Link would be stated as the winner, and therefore are playable characters. Depressio 02:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Can't we have a note for both saying "another" character is playable. Claycrow 12:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The thing is. They aren't playable. They are alternate colors. Alternate color =/= character. -Sukecchi 13:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not another character, Claycrow. It's a skin for an existing character. There are only 25 playable characters in Melee, end of story. Coreycubed 14:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well... 26 if you count Sheik. But yeah, that one has a seperate moveset. Perhaps you should generalize your statement, Claycrow. Put it somewhere other than the table, and don't state who gets an alternate skin. Oubliette 15:26, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't bother. It's not worth mentioning. Besides, it's for two characters. It's not notable enough. -Sukecchi 17:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Final Smashes and Movesets
I'm new to being a user on wikipedia, and I was just wondering why are things like individual final smashes and movesets not listed anywhere? I read what all the articles have been so far and I'm wondering if it is just because this information would be to much like a guidebook to a game rather than just information on it. I understand this point, but I'm wondering shouldn't we at least point out what the final smashes are called for each character or just have final smashes have it's own section that at least names them at this point, and maybe eventually either when the game is out or when the dojo updates on final smashes whether or not we should briefly describe them; that way it is still providing information without speculating. Well I was just trying to figure out what every else was thinking about this, because I have seen it suggested several times. Also if anyone has any pointers for me, to help me start out as a user of wikipedia; please let me know. (Sina Cool 03:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC))


 * Welcome. The main reason they are not included because it falls under Wikipedia is not a game guide. That's the main reason I think. Trevor   "Tinkleheimer"   Haworth  03:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for answering so quickly; what does anyone else think about this? Also what would a good article to start with for practice? I just want some practice before I do any long or detailed articles, even if it is something that might be considered busy work. Well thanks for the help and I want to try to learn as much as possible, tips will be highly apreciated. (Sina Cool 03:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC))
 * If you just want a place where you can practice editing period, without it needing to be a specific article or without breaking rules/messing up info, the sandbox is a great place. It's primarily for editing practice. Arrowned 03:40, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Veteran Character Accidentally Confirmed


Need I say more? --Pluvia 06:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Like I said on your talk page, It's pure speculation to think that this man in on the development team for Brawl. It's more logical to think that this is a random Nintendo employee stating random Nintendo characters. Luigi is one of Nintendo's most recognized characters from Nintendo's signature series, it's quite likely that he was just pulling names off the top of his head in that case. This is in no way confirmation of Luigi. Dengarde ► Complaints 07:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Talk:Super Smash Bros. Brawl/Archive 22, lets not go through this again.→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  12:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I was wondering where that was... Dengarde ► Complaints 15:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Sheik in characters list?
I don't think she should be due to her basically being an extension of the Zelda character. The footnote regarding her could be directed to from Zelda. Thoughts? U-Mos 14:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You could start as Sheik in Melee, making Zelda an extension of Sheik. And Sheik may turn out to be a separate character in Brawl or a future game. They should stay separate. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  15:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding starting as Sheik, I recall that was a hidden or secret method and therefore not really applicable. As for her possibly being a future character (unlikelihood aside), you could say that about anyone and stick them in with crosses and a question mark on that basis. U-Mos 16:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Shiek has always been called a character. Even the creators of the game called her a character, stating 26 playable characters in Melee. Because it's a playable character list, she stays due to her being a playable character. Depressio 16:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

OK then, something tells me you see her as a playable character. In that case shouldn't the Melee article and paragraph in this article state 26 characters rather than 25? U-Mos 17:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe they were talking about the 25 characters that are viewable on the character select screen. Just because she isn't on the character select screen, doesn't mean she isn't playable. It's like saying Zero Suit Samus isn't playable. Depressio 16:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Did I say she wasn't playable? Of course she is. The issue is over whether she should be included in the table. Certainly listing her there and also claiming "25 playable characters" elsewhere on Wikipedia is a direct contradiction and one of these should be changed. U-Mos 19:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Sheik has her own moveset and everything separate from Zelda. Sheik is her won character, but doesn't add to the overall number because she doesn't take up a spot on the roster. There are 25 characters on the Melee roster, but 26 playable characters. Shyrangerr 21:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Krystal in Brawl?
So I found this while browsing around, And to my interest, it states that Krystal from Starfox is in the game, one way or another. Does anyone know how authentic this is? (It was used as a reference in another article, if it helps...) 66.122.95.2 23:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd say not very authentic. That site seems to be a fansite. Plus, the Wikipedia article is nominated for speedy deletion, so that makes even less reliable to me. Dengarde ► Complaints 23:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Her article on Wikipedia is nominated for deletion due to non-notability; it has nothing to do with whether she's a legit voice actress or not (and she is). As for the website, it does look fansite-ish, but it also comes back in a whois as being created in 2006 and links to some legit looking resources (including one site which a whois shows is run by her husband), so the site wasn't created just for the purpose of a Krystal hoax.  Either way, there's no point to adding anything on Krystal before Dojo confirms it, for safety reasons. Arrowned 01:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * While it looks as though it is true from this that Krystal will be in Brawl, it is not known what form she will be in. She could be a playable character, an assist trophy, or just a character in a cutscene.  Until something is confirmed on the Dojo nothing should be added. CaptainGetts 05:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

No character should be added unless the Dojo, a trailer, or an OFFICIAL Nintendo confrence/event/personnel reveals them. [[User:Blowbagibway}}

Am I crazy, or did they remove the Brawl voices from that site? I know it was there the first time I looked. Looks like she really did let something slip that wasn't supposed to -- POWERSLAVE  04:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No, you're not. And I'm not surprised. The exact same thing happened when someone slipped they they were voicing Billy Coen in Resident Evil 5. Nintendo probably asked her to take it down once they heard the rumors. Dengarde ► Complaints 05:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

edit
to the external links section please add. thanks.--Alertdaterms0 00:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm what's with the edit protect tag? Also read this, there was discussion on if that link should be added or not and I believe that no consensus was found which I believe means that the link cannot be added. The Light6 11:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Symbol declined.svg|20px]] Declined - I do not see a consensus to add this linkage, so I'm disabling this editprotected request. Nihiltres ( t .l ) 14:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

but its not SmashWiki. SmashWiki is hosted on its own servers. this is the Super Smash Bros. Wiki, hosted on Wikia. check out articles with wikis that are hosted on Wikia, a lot of them have this. see Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Wikia (though some articles dont use this template). i'd like a valid reason why this link should not be here.--Alertdaterms0 19:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The arguments in that linked archive are legitimate for this case as well. In fact, I think a lot of people in that discussion (myself included) mistook Smash Wiki as actually being the Wikia site and arguing based on that, not realizing that wasn't Smash Wiki.  However, that discussion originated because of what I distinctly remember being a link to the Wikia SSB page continually added, so perhaps the confusion isn't entirely our fault. Arrowned 19:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * so why can't it be there? its content is under the GFDL and its there for people who are like "why cant this be added?" then you can say "go to the Super Smash Bros. Wiki".--Alertdaterms0 22:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * ...did you not read the link? The first five comments lay the explanation out pretty well, I think. Arrowned 23:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * From WP:EL, Links normally to be avoided, #13, "Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors." Axem Titanium 01:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Series of origin for Wario
The inclusion of characters list contains a series of origin column which erroneously states Wario's as being from the Wario series. Wario made his debut in Super Mario Land 2, as is noted on his Wikipedia article and can be seen in the Super Mario Land 2 article, and only had his own series at a later point. It is true that he in Brawl he dresses like he does in the WarioWare series, but he is still Wario, the character who was introduced in Super Mario Land 2. Dfsghjkgfhdg 20:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * We are going by their logo. Not their game. His lgo is the W, therefore, Wario Series. -Sukecchi 20:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter where they debut. If they've become their own character, and have their own series, that's that. Would you say that Donkey Kong is a Mario series character, and not a Donkey Kong series? Coreycubed 21:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Technically; if anything, Mario would be a Donkey Kong series character rather than the other way around; since he starred in Donkey Kong before Mario Bros.

Regardless, the apparent consensus is to categorise by emblem; so Wario is from the Wario series, just as Yoshi is from the Yoshi series (no-one raised that point, I see); even though, on occasion; the series' emblem can be highly inappropriate when pertaining to certain characters, such as Bowser (that scary Bowser-head emblem from the Mario Party series would be much more appropriate than that silly mushroom); none-the-less, rules is rules & emblems is law. - Jishmeister 11:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * How about we change "Series of Origin" to just "Series"? --(trogga) 15:34, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I like that idea. It get's the same message across with less confusion.Satoryu 17:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Fusion Suit
I think it should be noted that while the article states that Zero Samus's FS restores her suit, the video that is used as that statement's source shows her changing into her Fusion Suit, not her regular suit. 69.136.91.226 22:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * First, new section go at the BOTTOM of the page, and second, chances are it's an alternate color. Not notable. Dengarde ► Complaints 22:30, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

David hayter Confirms Jigglypuff
Here David Hayter is in an interview. One of the questions is which Brawl character would he like to beat up the most; he answers Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Mario. I know someone is going to say this is just as reliable as the one dude leaking Luigi. This is different. David Hayter isn't some random dude working for Nintendo on the show floor and just listing off characters. David Hayter is involved with the game and actually thought about the characters he was talking about. This is confirmation, but of course there are going to be people saying it's not. So I decided to just put this hear to let those people speak so we won't have an edit war. Shyrangerr 00:40, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. This is good evidence. However, We can't really treat this as confirmation. Don't get me wrong, I'm with you on this, but we really count this as confirmation, I'm sure. Wait until the Dojo adds Puff 'n stuff. Dengarde ► Complaints 00:48, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * He's naming names, just like the other guy was. This is in no way confirmation.Satoryu 00:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * He's not naming names. It's clear he was pausing to think about the characters, that's why there's a long pause before he says Jigglypuff. The other guy wasn't thinking and was just listing names without thought. There's a difference. Shyrangerr 00:53, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's still not a confirmation.Satoryu 00:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * How is it not confirmation? A character that has not been shown on the Dojo yet has been mentioned to be in the game by someone that was involved in the game's development. That's what confirmation is. Shyrangerr 00:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * We should wait for Dojo.--FrosticeBlade 00:57, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean after the game's released? Jigglypuff is very likely to be unlockable after beating Classic mode just like in Melee and SSB. That means she wouldn't be revealed on the site until after the game was released. There's also the fact there are 100% reliable sources besides the Dojo and Sakurai. Shyrangerr 00:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * When watching the video it could be from SSBB or the other two games from the past, thats why I think we should wait for dojo or when theres another pre view of the game.--FrosticeBlade 01:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * He's specifically asked about characters in Brawl. There's no reason to assume that he's thinking about characters not from Brawl. Shyrangerr 01:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Hayter is not a reliable source. He's not involved in the game's development at all, he's just a voice actor. And he never actually said "Jigglypuff is in the game." He was naming names, that's all, nothing else to it. As inevitable as Jigglypuff's return is, unless stated by someone from the development team or Nintendo, it's all speculation.Satoryu 01:08, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh, really, being a voice actor makes him more reliable. Remember the Codec calls? He's likely to know the entire roster. But, anyways, I agree, he was probably just naming names. He may have been asked about Brawl, but Jigglypuff return is likely anyways. He could hav been throwing us off. If he said someone like "Megaman", then I'd be all fanboyish and say thats a leak. Dengarde ► Complaints 01:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If he's not involved in the game; how did his voice magically appear for Snake? Hayter is involved in the game. Yes, he's not actually coding the game, but he's still involved with it. That makes him a reliable source. As I said, he's not just naming names. That would imply he's listing off characters without thinking about which he clearly isn't. He's thinking about the characters in Brawl and which ones he would like to use as Sandbags. Shyrangerr 01:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * how is he involved with the game all he did was a voice he doesnt wake up ever day to help the makers work day and night on the game.--FrosticeBlade 01:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You don't have to get up and code the game every day to be involved in the game. Even if Hayter only recorded lines for one week, that still makes him involved in the game. Further more he knows about every character in Brawl since he recorded those Codec conversations for the Shadow Moses Island stage. Shyrangerr 01:21, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No he doesnt they wont tell someone like him who is in the game or not, if they do he probably would tell all the reporters about it.--FrosticeBlade 01:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you NOT read what I just said? He has lines about every character in the game, of course he's going to know about every character. Shyrangerr 01:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * He doesnt know anything about the players he just like the dude from E for expo who works for nintendo just yelling out all the names he could think of.--FrosticeBlade 01:26, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Now it's obvious you're not reading what I'm saying. David Hayter recorded lines in which he has conversations about every playable character. Check the Shadow moses Island update on the Dojo. Shyrangerr 01:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm with him on this one. Hayter has voiced all the Codec calls that will be in the game, and from this looks of things, theres at least one call for each character. Chances are he knows the entire roster.
 * However, it's STILL not Confrimation. Still the extremely slim chance of him naming names. Dengarde ► Complaints 01:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What i'm trying to say is that we should wait for dojo, if he wanted to he could of yelled out all the names of the players in SSBB (off topic a little just like when some one from Nintendo reveled all pokemon in diamond and pearl.).--FrosticeBlade 01:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm saying Jigglypuff's been confirmed by a person involved in the making of Brawl that knows the entire character list. There's no reason to wait until February 10th when she's just been confirmed. Shyrangerr 01:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It still not 100% though. Besides, this kind of thing falls under original research. Dengarde ► Complaints 01:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Most of people here like me kinda want to see jigglypuff on dojo with our own two eyes even that she has been stated in the game.--FrosticeBlade 01:38, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't get me wrong im not saying your wrong we just want to see here with our own eyes.--FrosticeBlade 01:40, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

This isn't original research. That interview is my reliable source, so therefor it isn't original research. And FrosticeBlade, you're hearing it with your own two ears and seeing it with your own two eyes if you can read lips. Shyrangerr 01:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And I quote you: "That interview is my reliable source". Keyword: "my". Just because YOU consider it reliable doesn't mean we should. Really all it is is, simply put, just a random interview with Hayter. Not all that reliable. Dengarde ► Complaints 01:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I use my as "That interview is the reliable source that proves it's not original research." David Hayter mentioning Jigglypuff is confirmation as much as the Dojo is. Shyrangerr 02:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, about that...he's not. He's just a voice actor. He may have a part in the game, but that doesn't make him as reliable as the Dojo. Thats like saying that just because Matt Leblanc say that Joey was never canceled, (*sniff*) that it wasn't. Dengarde ► Complaints 02:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Joey WAS canceled. Jigglypuff hasn't had anything confirmed before David Hayter. That's the difference. The whole point is that David hayter knows the entire character roster because of the codec conversations. That makes him reliable. Shyrangerr 02:53, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * First, thank you for proving my point with Joey. Second, We know this. But that does NOT make him as reliable as the Dojo. Everyone here seems to agree with me on this, Dengarde ► Complaints 02:57, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * So far only Satoryu agrees with you. FrosticeBlade has told me that he agrees with me. So so far it's 2 vs. 2. Shyrangerr 04:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Froticeblade says he agrees with both of us. So that argument is moot. Now, I'm getting tired of arguing with you, so I'm just going to say this, and hopefully be done with it. If your logic is correct: That he is involved so me MUST be right. ten fine. Add him.
 * But you're also going to have to add Krytal, Luigi, Sheik, ad Gannondorf. Why? Becaue a Nintendo Employee said Luigi is in. It MUST be rue. The voice actor for Krystal in Starfox Assault said that Krystal is in Brawl. She's involved with Nintendo, so Krystal MUST be a playable character. Eiji Aonuma said that he submitted designs for Sheik and Gannondorf to Sakurai. He works for nintendo, and sent somthing official to Sakurai, so it MUST be logical to think that they're in Brawl!
 * You see where I'm going with this. Just because someone thats in some way related to Nintendo or whomever casually say one thing, it doesn't make it %100 percent true. So it doesn't matter who said what, unless it's an official statement, It's considered fake, or Original Research. Dengarde ► Complaints 04:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Listen we want pictures of the player not some voice actor.--FrosticeBlade 01:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I know you'd willingly accept this if it was said by Sakurai. So you obviously don't care if there are pictures or not. Shyrangerr 01:49, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't actually.If he did i would want proof.--FrosticeBlade 01:50, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with both of you but this is only me i guess i want to see pictures of the players or even a new pre view of SSBB using jigglypuff.--FrosticeBlade 03:07, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

IDEA!: Put a note saying that Luigi,Krystal,Jigglypuff,Ridely,etc. have been confirmed to have roles in the game although their role is currently un-known. This could be trivia. Who agrees? I mean come on! We should do this at the very least!-SLJCOAAATR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.99.218 (talk) 05:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this whole discussion is moot because you CAN'T CITE A YOUTUBE VIDEO. UltraNeko's YouTube channel does not have editorial review like CBS' channel. YouTube is only citeable when the article's subject is a YouTube video or the video is made by an established news network such as CBS. Axem Titanium 05:49, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

...And why whould CBS give us info. on Brawl? Why even compare the 2????? So,ummmm,i'm guessing you don't agree with my idea?...-SLJCOAAATR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.99.218 (talk) 05:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well it seems the questions if the source is reliable or not. The video features someone who is working on the game (voice acting Snake) saying Jigglypuff is in. Now he would know which characters are on the roster from the codec conversations. In which he voices Snake talking about the playable characters from within the game. This seems to me to be a reliable source, also correct me if I'm wrong, isn't Wikipedia's policy not confirmation but rather having a reliable and valid source? This means that if the guy is reliable and valid (which it seems he is) then shouldn't Jigglypuff be added and if it is later proven to be false it can simply be removed. The Light6 09:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is exactly what I'm saying. David Hayter worked for the game and part of that work had to do with conversations about all the playable characters. So he's a person who has worked on the game and knows all of the playable characters. That by far is a reliable source. And Dengarde, we don't have to add all of those other characters. Krystal's VA just said Krystal's voice was in the game, not specifying what role though. Luigi was a name just listed off by some completely random employee of Nintendo that has nothing to do with Brawl. Aonuma had just said that Sheik and Ganondorf's models were submited, they could just be used as ATs or bosses or something the like. David Hayter was asked about the characters and answered Jigglypuff after thinking about it. There's a difference between all those cases. Shyrangerr 14:49, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

HELLO!!!!????DOES ANYBODY READ WHAT I TYPE?????????-SLJCOAAATR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.99.218 (talk) 16:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Why you continue to not have an account is beyond me. CBS was used an example, buku. -Sukecchi 16:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I mentioned CBS' content as YouTube videos that can actually be cited reliably. Everything else on YouTube is not reliable and thus cannot be used as a source for confirmation or otherwise. Axem Titanium 17:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That link doesn't say you can't use Youtube as a source. Besides that it's already been established that David Hayter is a reliable source. He's been involved in the development of Brawl and knows the roster of playable characters because he's recorded lines which talk about all playable characters. It just so happens that the subject at hand is about the playable characters. Shyrangerr 20:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It has NOT been established that Hayter is a reliable source. Please don't simply assume that kind of thing. Dengarde ► Complaints 21:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The link doesn't need to say that YouTube isn't reliable. It just isn't. UltraNeko's videos have no editorial review. Also, we have no proof that Hayter has recorded lines for all the playable characters; we're only assuming that. Anyway, I think we've established that Dojo is the only truly reliable source for new characters. Axem Titanium 21:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * How is it just not reliable? If there were a Youtube video of Sakurai confirming a character of course it would be able to be used as a source. David Hayter knows all of the characters in Brawl so he's a good source for that kind of information. Yes, it's implied on the Dojo that he has a codec conversations for every single character. And to TwilightPhoenix, there's no reason to assume that Hayter isn't talking about playable characters or characters from previous games. He's asked which characters in Brawl, that implies playable characters that appear in Brawl. Shyrangerr 00:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's the thing. It is implied and not explicitly stated that he would know. Just wait for Dojo, please. Besides, the game will come out in 3 months and we'll know for sure. Axem Titanium 00:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay then, it's down right stated he will. "On this stage, Snake communicates with his team to learn the key characteristics of his rivals... Whoa... Seriously?" his rivals are all the other characters and that says he'll be able to learn key elements about his rivals, which we just said are the playable characters. Shyrangerr 01:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, now you're just pulling things out of a hat, and al ot of it is the same thing. Lemme put what he said a bit better. Hayter IMPLIED that Jigglypuff is in Brawl. He didn't downright say that "Jigglypuff is in Brawl". Dengarde ► Complaints 03:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Let us look at the facts. 1) David Hayter knows the entire roster of playable characters because of the codec conversations for the Shadow Moses Island stage. 2) When asked which Brawl character he'd like to beat up the most, he answered Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Mario. To answer the question in Fact #2 you must know all the characters, which we established David Hayter does know from Fact #1. So how could this POSSIBLY not confirm Jigglypuff? Shyrangerr 05:20, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, you're just repeating everything, so I not going to bother typing up the same response. Dengarde ► Complaints 17:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Question! Does Hayter state that Jigglypuff is a character, or does he just suggest the poke is in the game without specifying which form? If the latter, she could be an assit trophy or something else. Keep in mind, according to the Dojo, not all assist trophies are invincible, so it would still be possible for you to beat up Jiggly as an assist. Also keep in mind, I haven't watched the video, and can't due to bandwidth issues. TwilightPhoenix 21:38, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Not all voice actors know everything. There is a clip on Youtube of Nancy Cartwright, the voice of Bart Simpson saying she basically knew nothing about the movie until it came out. She just recorded her lines and that was it. It was very strict, just like SSBB. It has not been proven, to my knowledge, that David Hayter knows everything about Brawl. He most likely just recorded some voices for Snake and that was it. Trevor  "Tinkleheimer"   Haworth  06:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes but Hayter would know the roster because of codec conversations, we don't expect him to know everything about the game. The Light6 06:56, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

What is a/the codec calls everyone is referring to? Trevor  "Tinkleheimer"   Haworth  07:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/stage13.html Arrowned 08:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Shyrangerr, you've been repeating ad nausem that Hayter has recorded codec calls for every character. That's only an assumption, a big one at that. There's no way to tell if he has done all the codec calls. For all we know, he might have only recorded the three shown on Dojo so far. Also, Hayter was asked "Which Smash Bros. Brawl character would you like to beat up the most?" Again, you're assuming that means playable characters. Not so. It could mean playable characters, but it could also mean Assist Trophies, Pokeball summons, and Subspace Bosses. Hayter did not specify if Jigglypuff is playable. End of discussion.Satoryu 20:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, that's what the Dojo says (I've been repeating it because that makes him reliable about characters and able to be used as a source). "On this stage, Snake communicates with his team to learn the key characteristics of his rivals... Whoa... Seriously?" The rivals in SSBB are the characters you play as (all of them), proof being that the three that are shown are playable characters. I'm not making any assumptions. You're SUPPOSED to think of playable characters when asked that question, which is why he also mentioned Pikachu and Mario, both of which are playable characters. There's nothing to suggest that UltraNeko or Hayter were thinking otherwise. Shyrangerr 22:01, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * David Hayter really didn't say she was in there but she asked him who he wanted to beat down not who he wanted to beat down in SSBB.--DarkFierceDeityLink 22:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

could we add
could we add this table and take out the old one this one is a lot neater and you can add more stuff to the page.--FrosticeBlade 02:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Why? all you changed to the table was that you added a show/hide bare, sorta unnessicary. Besides we don't need to list any more facts the characters table, no symbol, final smash, move set, ect.→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  13:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

bosses
could we add rayquazza to the bosses list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by FrosticeBlade (talk • contribs)


 * ...We don't know if Rayquazza is a boss. Dengarde ► Complaints 19:18, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And, judging by the way he appears and is vanquished all in the same cut-scene, suggests he probably isn't. But time will tell. -- POWERSLAVE  19:20, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's hold on to that till DoJo says something about it.--DarkFierceDeityLink 21:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's just "Dojo", the J isn't capitalized. On topic, as said before, we don't know if Rayquaza is a boss or not. It is likely it is however. Shyrangerr 22:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

On-Screen Appearances
Did we talk about the 'On-Screen Appearances" yet if so you guys or I will take it off.--DarkFierceDeityLink 21:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)