Talk:Super Smash Bros. Brawl/Archive 19

Stickers AND Trophies?
Seeing as a recent update mentions "Stickers are easier to get a hold of than trophies. Just play the game and you’ll start to earn them as rewards", could this mean that trophies like in ssbm, will be back? If so then should we mention stickers on the main article, and trophies (once these are fully confirmed, if the post is just speculation) Cocopopz2005 11:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The mention of stickers had been added, but I think it could be placed in a better spot later on, when the whole article is expanded. The Dojo post only says that they're easier to get compared to trophies, not that trophies are in. It's left a little ambiguous. - Zero1328 Talk? 11:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Stickers and trophies would add a lot of collecting to do. Speaking of which should a mention be made in the article about the (semi)3rd mode of Smash bros.? 1p, multiplayer, collecting. No trophies other than Assist Trophies have been annouced and we don't even know entirely how they work.Pine27 12:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the stickers are noteworthy enough to be mentioned in the article yet. When more info arises about them, then they can be mentioned. Besides, they aren't a gameplay feature, per se. They're an extra mode much like the Trophies were.Satoryu 16:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I think that the last line in the recent sticker addition is speculation that should be removed but if someone wants to remove stickers for the moment then I'll understand and support it. -Adv193 16:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

at this point, the status of trophies (and the relation to stickers) is still speculation. just wait & they'll give us news. c'mon, weekday updates. what more could you ask for? FyreNWater 23:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Trophies kind of have been announced in the Adventure mode's "???" page. Pezzar 01:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

(Has learned lesson from Pokemon Trainer debate.) I'll wait 36 hours before deleting the Stickers blurb completely. But I'll remove the last line right now, as it is speculation. Satoryu 04:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

At this point, it would either be a good idea to use very minor details on stickers, or not include them at all for the moment until further details on their function for the game is revealed. I mean I don't want it to be permanently deleted, but there are too many minor details on the stickers for it to be posted on this page until new facts are revealed. -Adv193 20:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the comments on Dojo were intended to illustrate the swap of the two concepts. Trophies dropped onto the stage, and you had to pick them up. Stickers appear to just fall randomly, and you get them simply by touching them (meaning lots of stickers can be acquired unintentionally while fighting). Of course, this is just speculation. But I don't think they would use the same "collection" system twice. GraniteJJ 00:48, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Mention Pokemon Trainer?
Should Pokemon Trainer be mentioned somewhere here? I'd do it myself, but the page is protected. Poke DP 11:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We can't list every character. The paragraph will get cluttered. So we have this: -Sukecchi 12:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Pokemon Trainer is unique at the moment, but we just can't add everything. Imagine the hubub Sonic being announced would make. Or Diddy, or Ridley..... Point being, Pokemon trainer may get a sentance describing his(possibly costume changing to her) play style, but not a detailed explanation.Pine27 12:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think he should be mentioned. The only reason I can think of is the unique playing style Pokemon Trainer has, since he's in the background. I think this justification is applied to Zero Suit Samus' mention, too. The appearance is unique. Perhaps Zero Suit Samus and Pokemon Trainer can go into a separate paragraph on how the fighter enters battle differently..? - Zero1328 Talk? 13:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think he should be mentioned too. In fact, I think every single character should be given at least a mention if not a whole paragraph dedicated to them. It seems reasonable enough that the article contains as much information as possible and not mentioning characters because it takes up too much room seems a little anti-information giving.

--86.157.53.248 13:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)User:SmileGuy1
 * It's only right to add the characters if the stub about sonic is still in the article. Sasst82 16:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

We don't have to add every single new character to the page. Just because his playstyle is different does not mean he should get his own blurb on the article. The Pokémon Trainer page already has a blub about it. If people want to find out about him, they can go there.Satoryu 16:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * who's going to just look on his page to see if he's in any new games? It should be mentioned. Wasn't there a player chart at one time, or am I thunking of the character page? Either way, I think that something like that would be a good addition to this page.Purplepurplepurple 17:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The list of playable characters is still in the Super Smash Bros. (series) article, but there's no reason for there to be a second list on the Brawl article if Brawl is already included in the list over in that article. D i saster K i rbyTalk 18:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's better for relevant information to be on one page rather than multiple. I don't see what's wrong with mentioning all of the newcomers to Brawl in this article. It wouldn't really clutter the page much unless there's around 20 new characters. -- Tenks 19:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well if we were to do that, then for the Melee article we'd have to mention every character that wasn't in the original. Plus, we don't know how many new characters there are, so for all we know, there may be 20 new characters. InsaneZeroG 19:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not necessary to mention every new character. Only a few like there is already is enough. If we mention any new character, it's because of something important, like having Snake. All the characters is a little redundant. They're mentioned at the Super Smash Bros series page, and there own pages. Depressio 19:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Although this is also going to be a long wait until the games release and the article can be rewritten then, it still will have to be a long term goal regardless because of all the unknown variables that have not been presented yet and although there will still be editors and IP's that ignore the general concensus. One thing I have to point is there is already ENOUGH character examples for new and returning characters and it won't be neccessary to add more just as simply as there is also the repeating questions on opinion of how the page should be handled which is getting REALLY old.


 * Anyhow these endless talks and arguments are just another recreation of a upcoming video game dispute on Wikipedia, such as the large dispute over the English names for the new Pokemon that occurred before Diamond and Pearl's release, which I was also largely involved with. At this rate someone may have to request for a temporary page protection -Adv193 20:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Whoa whoa whoa, hold up here. I was just saying to mention him, not give him a paragraph. Ike, Meta Knight, Pit and all the other new characters are mentioned. Just put his name, and say that he is new, don't say what he does. That was all I was saying. Poke DP 23:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think I'll agree with Adv193 here when I say that there should be protection on this page until the game is finally released (in Japan at the very least). InsaneZeroG 23:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

After reading this I went ahead and put Pokémon Trainer and Diddy Kong in the sentence listing characters from previously represented series. I think that all new characters should be included at least until the release of the game because that is what people may be looking for when reading the article. Other 'Veteran Fighters' like Peach should be left out of the main article. Spruce Woodway 21:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe we would use more examples, but I strongly oppose all new characters being added here, since there are eight new characters confirmed and many more to come; that's way too many for this article. &mdash; Malcolm (talk) 21:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Remove Sonic
Sonic has not "been on the cards" for too long. We should take him out of the Super Smash Bros. Series page! - 4.130.2.178 22:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The only mention of Sonic on that particular page you have linked to only mentions the Sonic hoax. -Sukecchi 23:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * We should all just shut it and WAIT. Sonic's being mentioned too much in the talk pages, and it's getting on my nerve. Pezzar 01:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You're right. I'm tired of all this Sonic speculation. There's no way he'll be in the game. Why can&#39;t i find a good username 21:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

There's a chance he'll be in the game, because of Snake's presence, but i'm not saying he should be mentioned in the article. BassxForte 21:41, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

lets suspend all talk of Sonic until he is announced on the OFFICIAL website —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.175.231.181 (talk) 19:35, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought Sonic's first game with Mario was going to be in the Olympic Games in 2008...I personally hope he isn't in Brawl early. Lightwing1988 11:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * When that was said, we had no idea if Sonic was going to be in Brawl or not, just like we have no idea now. Olympic Games was the first game sonic was ANNOUNCED to share with Mario. Joiz A|A. Shmo 12:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Online Game?
This game is currently listed in Category: Online games, yet there has been no official word on whether or not the game will have online play. I'd fix this myself, but apparently this is the part of the "Free Encyclopedia that Anyone can edit" that not everyone can edit.--209.243.31.233 03:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * hmm, i never noticed it. i'll make the change. also, it's blocked to unregistered people and new users because it was heavily vandalized and endlessly edited with trivial junk for months. FyreNWater 07:29, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Coro Coro confirmed online play (and its Japanese release date). There was something about this here, but it got archived I guess. -- Tenks 19:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It was conformed a year or two ago by now-unreliable articles, which is why I asked why it was even in the article. However, the mindset is that since Sakurai/Nintendo/whoever says that it's online, despite the fact that in the same conference they confirm that it was to be a launch title for the Wii, it's 'fact' unless later refuted. I've heard of CoroCoro's recent update on the matter, however.75.67.206.173 00:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In regards to online play, I edited the commentary about that a long time ago because Iwata expressed a desire to include online capabilities. He didn't say it would definitely make it in. And since Iwata cannot speak for Sakurai, it would not be fair to include it in the article as fact, and hold the developers to someone else's promises. GraniteJJ 00:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

wanna add everything Dojo!! says?
well, it's not welcome at Wikipedia. if you're itching to record every tiny update, you're welcome to do so at the SmashWiki. please redirect your efforts to that site and let this article rest a bit, 'kay? (sorry i'm kinda advertising. it's a whole lot better to direct that energy to the right place than to keep fighting it, though.) FyreNWater 07:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This should be at the top really, possibly in bold, and possibly in the FAQ if it's not already in there...And then the link to that should be in bold and in something that people would actually notice. InsaneZeroG 17:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:DIEU [/shamless plug]  You Can '  t See Me!  19:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I of course appreciate the advertisement for SmashWiki here because that's the Wiki-style site I edit nowadays. But in general comments pompous in tone like "wanna add everything Dojo!! says?" and "let this article rest a bit, 'kay?" are pretty grating to my nerves.
 * pompous? i'm just trying to fix this problem of constant trivial editing. please do not assume anything and don't call people names. WP:ATTACK FyreNWater 21:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That wasn't meant as an attack or a name-calling towards you as a user, obviously I wouldn't intentionally stoop down to that level, and I apologize if that's how it seemed. It's just that I notice that pretty much every editor's comments I see on this talk page nowadays, as well as their edit summaries on the pages themselves, is noticeably more harsh than most other talk pages, sometimes contrary to Wikipedia's purported aim at being a more "friendly-type" environment; it's certainly why I don't post here much nowadays. Your comments weren't even anywhere near the level of the other sorts of comments I'm talking about, so I'll cross out my above comment and restate that I didn't intend to offend you or post a name-calling attack. :( I can appreciate how it's frustrating to everyone who works on this article for having to revert all sorts of good-faith-but-unnecessary material day-in day-out, so I'm hoping that with SmashWiki established as a location to encourage cruft-posters to head over to from here on out, we can all lighten up a bit. :) Erik Jensen (Appreciate 21:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * One thing to note: Since it's not a Wikia wiki, it has a different license, so we're not allowed to copy and paste Wikipedia text onto there. Erik Jensen (Appreciate 20:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I should point out that the details from that site which have minor detail without any sufficent information should not be used on this page due to speculation concerns, such as the stickers, where their true purpose hasn't been fully detailed yet.-Adv193 20:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Also, because SmashWiki looks like it's essentially a database made by and for the Smash Bros. community arranged in Wiki-style format, original fan-terms like Wavedash and Black Hole Glitch being the titles of their own articles, thousands of articles on players of the game, and some speculation to a small degree have all been established as fair game on SmashWiki. In other words; it's actually a fun site and far more suited to what normally is tried to put on these serious SSB-related articles on the general Wikipedia. Erik Jensen (Appreciate 20:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Now that we've established that the smash wiki exists, we no longer need to discuss it, as it isn't adding anything to the article. DurinsBane87 20:45, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But hopefully it's going to somewhat prevent the adding of futile details to the article from here on out, which was the objective of this thread. It was the adding of such unnecessary information that made this article hell to maintain in the first place. :) Erik Jensen (Appreciate 20:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * um... yeah. that was my point. i know i'm sick of constantly reverted trivial edits. while copy-pasting is not allowed, starting it in the right place would take a load off this article. FyreNWater 21:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Should we add the SmashWiki link to the top of the talk page and FAQ now? Erik Jensen (Appreciate 22:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Can we just wait til the game is out? The rules here (and people who think they're in charge) won't allow anything to be added. "No lists!" "That's speculation!" "That belongs on the SSB series article!" Unless it's more information on Subspace Emissary, I can't see anything else that could be allowed to be added. Maybe you guys need to list what could actually be added or changed to the article. If that list turns out to be short, maybe the article should not be edited at all until close to the games release. (Sorry for the long speech) (Zojo 22:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC))


 * If editors trying to follow policy here is really as controlling as you think it is, maybe you should file a report or go to one of the places where you can have admin's or other editors look at it. Instead of snide comments, see if you can do anything about it. I personally feel that we've been following policy and guideline to the best of our ability, and i feel that an admin would see that, also. DurinsBane87 07:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What can be added: Info about plot, release information, new (important) gameplay info, new playable third-party characters, online info, and...that's about it really. I'm not sure if anything else should be added that shouldn't already be added. InsaneZeroG 23:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course the information needs to be very reliable with no speculation and enough available material. All the information towards gameplay, characters, and additional options must also be properly sourced. -Adv193 23:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Simply end this discussion by quoting the "-pedia" suffix at the end of "wikipedia", ie. sources need to be cited and proper grammar is used - slang is not. *kaburicho 15:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Character announcements
This citation found on Pit (Kid Icarus) is a list of all the fan email replies by Sakurai, translated. (most are paraphrased, only a few are direct translations.) One such reply indicates that Sakurai will release information on a playable character each week, until release. After release, every week info on the secret characters will be released. Apparently this is similar to what he did for Melee, too.. Anyway, it's possible that we can get some info out of the other replies for the article. - Zero1328 Talk? 06:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This is really old news though, and it's not really relevant at this point. Besides, Toukouken was where fans could post their suggestions, that site has been replaced by Sumabura Ken (Dojo). *kaburicho 15:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Plus, Sakurai never said he'd do a once a week pattern. According to that translation, he said he'd reveal the characters and the translator speculated that he'd reveal them in a similar fashion as he did with Melee. (Zojo 22:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC))


 * doesn't that mean every weekday? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ivyluv (talk • contribs).


 * I wish...Quatreryukami 19:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * actually, every weekday, Sakurai 'has' updated the site every weekday. just look on the site!Ivyluv 23:42, 22 August 2007


 * I meant I wish there was a new character every weekday...*cry*Quatreryukami 19:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Single player mode
I think the single player mode should be made its own section, rather than a subsection of Gameplay. While the Melee article lists single player mode under Gameplay, the single player mode in this version is considerably more complex, more detailed than in previous games. Plus its very hard to distinguish between 3rd level and 4th level section breaks. I'm going to make the changes. --Son 16:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we should wait until we have a few more details, like at least a good majority of the main story, or at least a better, clearer understanding of how things work. 72.225.211.5 19:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It's stated that it's a sidescrolling action game. We could also post the important tidbits that Sakurai has posted. Quatreryukami 19:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

With the Dojo's new update, any thoughts on including the Primid, Ancient Minister, new plot details, etc.? 75.67.206.173 04:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe they absolutely should be included, or at least some of it. But we need to be very careful on what we say. We don't know much, and we have to be careful we're not unintentionally filling in blanks. DurinsBane87 04:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd agree with 72.225.211.5 in that we need more details before we try anything. Perhaps some extremely elemental information might be appropriate; a basic summarry of the This World post or the overall goal of the Ancient Minister as mentioned in The Subspace Army post, for instance. However, I would advise against posting summaries of the two posted movies and This World's screenshots or (worse yet) conclusions drawn from the them. It would be like trying to present a synopsis of a film with a complex plot, such as Spirited Away, after watching the first three minutes.  You Can '  t See Me!  04:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Full motion video?
The article says that the single player mode will use full motion video. Dojo doesn't say how the movies in single player mode are done. It's quite likely they'll be scripted movies like in Zelda so that the player's selected costume would be used (if there are additional costumes and they can be selected for this mode). Until we know more, it's speculation and doesn't belong in the article. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  17:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed Dengarde ► Complaints 17:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the video shown on the site FMV, and not just in-game graphics? Or am I missing something here? Coreycubed 18:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We can't prove that. (Read the post right above yours...>>)—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 18:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Right. It could be a capture of in-game graphics, or a custom rendering of it, or .... The point is, we don't know. What is on the site is definitely full motion, but that doesn't mean that the version in the game will be. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  18:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

You're right, I'm jumping to conclusions by assuming that the movies will be FMV. I'm trying to remember what my justification was, and can't think of anything, so let's go ahead and remove the FMV reference and just refer to them as movies or cutscenes or something. Coreycubed 18:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * you know, technically, those are in game movies. The Subspace Emmissary happens before the primids arrive, and The Subspace Army vid takes place after Princess Peach, Mario, Princess Zelda, and Kirby defeat the primids. Ivyluv 04:58, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Erm... yes. The question is whether or not those are FMVs, not whether they are in the game or not. As mentioned above, we can't know for sure whether they are FMVs or real-time rendering.  You Can '  t See Me!  06:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Wi-Fi
Why does the article say that that one of the modes of the game is Wi-Fi, when it hasn't been confirmed? I.P. 75.53.157.60 21:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Read the discussion about this in the Talk Page archives. Arrowned 21:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, theres a topic about it above...Purplepurplepurple 01:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No it has been comfirmed, get the link by going to the discussion (RP) Rating Pending androo123 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Androo123 (talk • contribs) 15:50, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Peach and Zelda turn to stone
I noticed that when Petey Piranha smashes the cages with Peach and Zelda in them together, they (Peach and Zelda) turn to stone. Can we somehow fit this into the article, or do you suppose we should wait until we get more info on this? I just wanted to point it out. Please don't speculate about it though, I'm just simply asking if it should be in the article or not. (If this has been mentioned somewhere here before, feel free to delete this) --Kenny2k 06:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Currently, the events of the two short clips and the sequence of screenshots in the This World post should be avoided, as they detailed descriptions of a plot that we only have literally two minutes of. But thanks for pointing that out. I didn't notice that at all.  You Can '  t See Me!  06:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Petey Pirinha didn't have that power before....hmm maybe he's in the same category Peach was a couple of weeks ago.(SPECULATION)Pine27 12:10, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah...Um... according to this, I was wrong. Oh well. --Kenny2k 07:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The turning to stone thing was speculation in the first place. I simply interpreted it as a lighting thing. Trying to interpret things with little info is technically original research, since it could be interpreted in any way. - Zero1328 Talk? 07:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. But, is there anything we could/should add about this update? Is it too soon to say that there could be multiple paths to take in the Adventure Mode? --Kenny2k 07:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally I'd like it if it were less vague, but since it's directly from the blog, I don't think there's a problem putting it in now. - Zero1328 Talk? 12:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, they actually dont turn into stones. They're trapped in the cage and used as weapons for Petey Piranha, a boss for the Subspace Emissary. But still, good eye, i also was thought to believe they turned into stone by watching it until the site was updated ChristoCracker 07:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Diddy Kong
Diddy Kong's been announced. The question is: do we add him? Pezzar 06:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No. The article already has enough character examples. Don't want the article to get all cluttered, do we? D i saster K i rbyTalk 07:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * yeah, and next time they make a dictionary, only put in like a hundred words. don't want it to get all cluttered, do we? --66.31.243.202 22:48, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That is a terrible argument. Besides that, a dictionary doesn't use a ton of examples for each word definition, does it? D i saster K i rbyTalk 22:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Have you read the the FAQ? That's the whole reason it's there, so people don't ask the same questions over and over again.→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  16:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No need to sound bitey. Useight 06:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The only reason I asked that is because he's new. Pezzar 00:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Havok Engine
Havok's Site says that Brawl will use the Havok engine. I've added this to the page. If anyone has any objections, I'd like to hear them. Luigi &quot;Kurai&quot; III 17:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That page only says that the game will utilize Havok products. It doesn't say anything about the whole game using a Havok engine. The main game engine is obviously the same Super Smash Bros. game engine, just... utilizing Havok products. D i saster K i rbyTalk 17:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ...Or am I mistaken as to how the whole "engine" stuff works? D i saster K i rbyTalk 17:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Taking another look at it, I'd think that the Havok products are parts of a game engine, but I honestly don't know much about game engines. I just saw a thread about this on a forum, or else I wouldn't have seen it. Luigi &quot;Kurai&quot; III 17:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

If you look at their product page, it show many different types of products from character behaviors to engines to SDKs. We don't yet know which of them is being used, if there are any at all. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  18:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

You're not mistaken, Kirby. Havok is middleware. In other words, the physics engine is just one element to be incorporated into the entire game engine, so we can't say that the game engine is Havok, because that's not possible. If you really want to include the mention for the moment, we could just say that the engine contains some Havok products, but I feel that at the moment it's a trivial fact. - Zero1328 Talk? 06:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Bullet Bill
I read from a Wiki page that Bullet Bill will be in the adventure mode for BRAWL, is this true and is their proof (theyre could be and i jus didnt see it) -ChristoCracker 11:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A screenshot on the blog shows bullet bills as an enemy in a level. It should be on one of the articles pertaining to the adventure mode. I'm not sure on what you're thinking while you're asking this, though.. it's just going to be a standard enemy, like the koopa troopas or goombas from Melee. - Zero1328 Talk? 11:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Or like the Bullet Bills that attacked Peach's castle in Melee (part of the stage). &mdash; Jaxad  0127  11:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, those were Bonzai Bills, Bullet Bills are smaller. Purplepurplepurple 23:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * They're still a type of bullet bill. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  12:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Really?... are we having this conversation... wow...(Poweroverwhelming 22:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC))
 * Wasn't it a Bullet Bill that took Mario out on the video with Petey Pihrana? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mayor Coffee Bean (talk • contribs) 12:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The Subspace Emissary
Uh, I came across this article earlier today. I'm not quite sure if this deserves an article quite yet, though that might just be the mergist within me speaking. Anyways, I did what I could to improve it, then slapped on a merge tag before starting this thread. Personally, I think that we ought to wait until the game comes out first, since until then it is just a part of Super Smash Bros. Brawl, not to mention a part that we know very little about as of now. Any opinions on the matter?  You Can ' t Review Me!!! 00:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that that article shouldn't really be up until the game is out, but a placeholder may be fine. Especially if the characters from the story become "major characters." On the other hand, the game isn't out yet so.... InsaneZeroG 00:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the page should just be redirected to the single player section, at least until the game is released but even then I doubt it should go into that much detail, Wikipedia is not a game guide!!!!!!→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  00:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering about that, and I agree. It doesn't need it own page. Dengarde ► Complaints 00:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, since nobody has objected so far, I'll go ahead and redirect the page. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 02:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I propose we have new subs:
Gameplay Sub- Adventure Mode Sub- Subspace Emissary

Everyone is happy and it leaves room for more.--ChibiMrBubbles 04:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC) Subpages is disabled for the main article namespace on wikipedia. Your solution, no matter how good or bad it is, can not be done.--Henke37 13:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Wi-Fi mode
Why is this still here? Online play was never confirmed; the most Sakurai ever said was "we'll try". Iwata said that the game would be online, but in the same breath he also said it would be a launch game for Wii. And that was at E3 2005; clearly out-of-date info. I'm removing this. Phediuk 17:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There's already two discussions on this very page about this. Arrowned 17:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Discussions which went nowhere. There was no reason to revert my perfectly legitimate edit. Prove that the game will be online or don't revert it. Phediuk 18:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

It was playing during Reggie's speech about WiFi games at E3 2007. The Brawl trailer was there along with dozens of other WiFi titles on Nintendo's platform playing during his speech. Sakurai has confirmed WiFi numerous times:

With interviews ranging from GameSpot to IGN to many other sources which talk more about online (such as online leaderboards unlikely)

On the official Brawl webpage he announced WiFi will be part of the game. Your edits are troublesome to say the least and lack any real justification other than your lack of insight.--ChibiMrBubbles 19:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Be consistent, now. Nowhere on the official site did Sakurai ever say that the game will most definetly be WiFi. If you're using other sites as references to prove Brawl is online, then anything can be justified that way. That means there really is 50 characters! You need to be consistentabout only putting in stuff confirmed by official sources. (Zojo 22:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC))

What the hell? No anything can't be justified like that because that's an editorial opinion. IGN as well as other sources have INTERVIEWS with the man. Your hyperbole sucks. There's nothing wrong with my argument and I have not heard any counterpoints that say theres no wifi.--ChibiMrBubbles 23:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

''There was a reason Smash Bros. was announced at the meeting. That was because when it was asked what product Nintendo would want to use to help it unveil its Wi-Fi Network, the first title on the list in both America and Japan was Smash Bros. So it was first decided to talk about Smash Bros. as an example of a Wi-Fi title, resulting in the game being announced before the development structure was finalized.''

 "We'd work to make the game independently, but we might be told to simply focus on making the game Wi-Fi compatible, and may be instructed not to lay a hand on any of the 26 characters in the current game, Super Smash Bros. Melee."

http://web.archive.org/web/20060703022306/www.smashbros.com/en/story/page_2.html

Sakurai has said numerous times to IGN as well as other magazines that he intends to put WiFi on the game, commenting as well on the fact that leaderboards won't be implemented on the game.

Now it's your turn.

I told you that Brawl was playing in the background during Reggie's WiFi speech at e3 2007 (along with other wifi games).

I quoted Sakurai's own words from Brawl prior to the makeover and I'm willing to find IGN and other magazines that reconfirm it.

Your argument fails because you implied that I was quoting magazines because they 'think' theres wifi.

Theory vs Quote from the director is not the same. --ChibiMrBubbles 23:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to remove this since there is no confirmation. Deoxys911 23:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Like hell, you prove to us that there is no WiFi.

''Will the game take advantage of WiFi connection? Will it be online?

Sakurai: My plan is to include WiFi and online functionality. Actually one of the reasons it was created was that the staff said that when the console went online, the first game should be SSB. I'm going to try very hard to do that. But, I think it may be a lot of work to come up with a system with 4 players simultaneously and figuring out who's first, but we may look at other ways of bringing 4 people together.''

If you remove it I will consider it vandalism and take appropriate actions.--ChibiMrBubbles 23:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You get to call this "lack of insight"? All Sakurai has said and all you've proven is that Sakurai would like very much and is trying to make this game Wi-Fi compatible. Does that mean Wi-Fi is confirmed? NO. Last I checked, before the game came out Pokémon XD was going to be a big fancy, main-series style RPG, but ohlook it was a Colosseum sequel! "My plan is to include WiFi and online functionality" does not mean "we've definitely got Wi-Fi functionality in this game."—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 00:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Fail example. Reggie was the one who said it, he was just a PR man. Read through the blog quotes I sent, specifically what Nintendo wanted to do with Melee. If that's all you got (A PR man vs the director who Nintendo begged to come back with full control), then I guess that's that.

Also, the game trailer was playing during Reggie's speech about WiFi games coming (E3 2007), along with Metroid prime 3 and dozens of other wifi games coming soon. And Sakurai was quoted about no online leaderboards, I can get them if you're clinging on to this matter that much. --ChibiMrBubbles 00:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to make it a mini summary: Sakurai, the director of the Smash Bros series, said in the original Smash Bros Brawl site that Nintendo was afraid of changing anything without consulting him and that they were going to take the original Melee with the original cast of characters and add Wi-Fi. Then he mentioned in the same blog that he wants to implement Wi-Fi into the game. IGN's interview with Sakurai confirmed he was going to implement WiFi and was going to be a challenge with 4player Wi-Fi but he would still like to have people play the game together on Wi-Fi. My sources are the original Brawl website, IGN articles that I'll be more than happy to share, and anything else that pops up I'll source it. There is no fully supported counterpoint to removing WiFi, here's what I had thrown at me: "You can't go use this source for this website because we could use them for confirming 50 playable characters" IGN does not speculate, they had interviews with the man. As well the original Brawl site. "Reggis Fils-Aime (A PR man back at the time) lied to us about Pokemon XD completely. Sakurai is the director of this franchise, one that left and was begged basically by Nintendo to come back. He isn't a puppet like a PR man is. And now we're clinging on to a sentence. Nintendo themselves wanted to add online to Melee without changing anything, Sakurai wants to add it, he's denied the claim about online leaderboards but will be adding online.--ChibiMrBubbles 12:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The article itself only says that Sakurai has "expressed an interest" in putting online in the game. I'm putting a [citation needed] on the Nintendo Wi-Fi note until someone provides proof of online. Phediuk 13:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you didn't read my comments about the numerous confirmation. The last recent one was at E3 2007. Your lack of knowledge doesn't concern me.--ChibiMrBubbles 13:38, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh really? Shouldn't be difficult to provide a citation if there was indeed a confirmation. Phediuk 13:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

There was a citation in the past for it and as I said I have no problems doing it, but the citation was removed and left alone for a while. --ChibiMrBubbles 13:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Then provide it again. Until then, the citation note is perfectly legitimate. Phediuk 13:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Because this has become a known fact that has been provided all over the internet through various sources. This is your vandalism by removing sourced material.--ChibiMrBubbles 13:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If it's "all over the internet", then why can't you provide a single source? This is surely a contentious fact, given that I'm not the only one in this discussion to contest this point. Provide a source, and then you'll be the right one. One easy-peasy source. Shouldn't be difficult. It's "all over the internet", after all. Until then, the citation note is legitimate. Phediuk 13:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, so when I mentioned E3 2007, Sakura's blog, IGN, this all somehow went over your head. No one else has contested because that would require a rebuttal which makes sense, none that have occured.--ChibiMrBubbles 13:56, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Sakurai's blog doesn't even exist anymore, and on IGN, all he said was that he was interested and would "try" to put it in. It was in a picture in the background while Rerggie was talking about Wi-Fi, but no one has ever said that "Super Smash Bros. Brawl will be online", and it has never been mentioned on the official website. Until it is, the citation note stands, and the information should be removed from the article if no one can provide a source. But oh, I forgot, it's "all over the internet". How silly of me. Phediuk 14:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

So somehow Sakurai's words are non-existent? This means he lied? Oh please, his quotes I believe are still use on the Wikipedia article for Brawl, this is a pathetic rebuttal it's not even worth mocking. Iwata announced Brawl with online multiplayer but lo and behold the game like all Nintendo games was pushed back from it's launch release like Iwata promised. Ignore all references to Brawl being online, I don't care.  Even CoroCoro a Japanese magazine did confirm it weeks ago. And before you even think about questioning their credibility they have always gave us new Pokemon name, scans, etc and are a reliable source. So this is a petty little fight because for whatever reason you're hellbent on believing the game doesn't have WiFi. I'm just going to wait it out until Nintendo's next conference which before the Tokyo GameShow which may confirm it for those are too slow to comprehend it. Or we'll probably get online confirmation by a Dojo update. So really, don't add citations, just remove it. Feed that hubris of yours, I will more than willing to strike it down come confirmation time.--ChibiMrBubbles 14:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And when it is indeed confirmed, then I will be "struck down". Until then, the note stands, unless you can provide a citation. It's "all over the internet", as you say, so I don't know why this discussion has gone on so long. That CoroCoro thing was fake, by the way. Phediuk 14:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Not at all my good man. I implore you to remove it right this instant. Shame on me for even pondering such fan speculation like the idea of Brawl having online. So by all means, remove the citation and remove the Nintendo WiFi.--ChibiMrBubbles 14:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope, citation stands, until you can prove that there is online play. I mean, it's "all over the internet". Come come, now. If you had the ability to shut me down with some conclusive proof, you'd have presented it long ago. Provide a citation, and hey, you win. But it seems you can't do that. Now, let's end this debate until you can find some proof. Should be quick, eh? It's "all over the internet". Phediuk 14:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if you're being dense on purpose but you see the little bar next to your browser? This lets you scroll up. And now if you use this handy tool, you'll see my references to IGN, E3 2006 and 2007. But then again, this would require much work for someone of high status to force his inane opinion over no WiFi in Brawl.--ChibiMrBubbles 14:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And if you scrolled down a little after that, you'll see how I said that all Sakurai said to IGN was "we'll try", and how showing a picture in the background among many other games while talking about Wi-Fi=/="this game will be online". You'll also see how I said online has not been mentioned on the official site. Oh, and online wasn't even mentioned at E3 2006, just so you know. And besides, if any of these supposed "sources" provided proof of online play, you'd be able to easily cite them and end this debate. But lo and behold, you haven't. The citation note stands until you provide proof of online. Phediuk 15:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't read past the first sentence. Cool, do what you want. --ChibiMrBubbles 15:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Good God, why is this topic so long? ChibiMrBubbles, if you cant give us a link to a reliable source clearly stating that Brawl has Wi-Fi, drop it. If Brawl is going to have Wi-Fi, I'm betting the first place we hear it is on the official site. Now lets let this topic die. And stop attacking Phediuk. --Kenny2k 23:57, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

NAH, ISN'T THAT WHAT I SAID YESTERDAY BEFORE YOU INTELLIGENTLY BROUGHT THIS UP? Shut up, learn to read, and stop commenting on finished discussions.--ChibiMrBubbles 18:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * ChibiMrBubbles and Kenny2k, please calm down and stop flame warring. &mdash; Malcolm (talk) 18:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this helps with the issue but the September 07 Nintendo Power had a fan letter asking if Brawl is online. The people at NP answered it's not been confirmed either way. (Zojo 15:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC))


 * Just for the record, if there is ever a situation where the existence or truth of anything is in question, the burden of proof falls on the one who says it does exist, and not the other way around. That is why - for example - in a court of law, it is the prosecution that has to provide proof that the accused committed a crime. If it were the other way around (as some seemed to expect in this talk page), then the defense would be constantly labouring to prove that the accused could not have - under any circumstances - committed a crime.

Furthermore, Sakurai's claims have been nothing but aspirations. I want to have a billion dollar mansion and a summer home on a private island. Doesn't mean I'm going to make it happen any time soon. Such is the difference between wanting something and doing something. GraniteJJ 01:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey guys, I want to travel to Mars! Guess we should make an article about me that says I've already traveled to Mars, because according to someone in this discussion, want=reality. ShadowUltra 04:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Stop adding the fact tag for the WiFi. Do you guys really need a source for this? EB Games even shows the WiFi icon for the box - regardless if it can be disputed as a reliable source. Douglasr007 19:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, yes. We need a source for nearly every fact that is not immediately obvious to the reader.  You Can ' t Review Me!!! 19:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Nintendo Power said this month WiFi has not been confirmed one way or the other. Official magazine. Can't argue with that. (Zojo 20:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC))

Links
This seems like a pretty good link: http://wii.ign.com/articles/809/809868p1.html Zixor 02:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Huh? They don't really list anything we already didn't knew. And it isn't an editorial that's reliable for a good source in my honest opinion.--ChibiMrBubbles 03:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Meta Knight is gone?
Meta Knight has been removed from the playable characters list on dojo... and he has only been presented so far as an enemy character. It's becoming clear that, as seen in the video's, the Halberd is also prominently used in shipping those puppet enemies around (name escapes me.) Should this be pointed out anywhere? It's kinda significant to the plot, and it's not delving too much into the realms of speculation. I know I haven't made any real points here, but I wanted to point out the Dojo thing and leave the content up to those with more experience. Rooreelooo 22:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * But then again, Dojo used him to demonstrate the Wiimote control set.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 22:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * He's definitely not gone. &mdash; Malcolm (talk) 22:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Besides, was Meta Knight ever GIVEN a player character article on Dojo? Whether the character is confirmed or not, they haven't showed up on the site until they decide to do it (Zero Suit Samus took forever to show up, and Snake isn't even there yet).—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 22:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Whether or not he has a page, the first video said that he was a newcomer. It's only logical to make him a character.  BlueCanary9999 22:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)BlueCanary9999
 * Yeah, I realize. I just said that to point out the fact that a lot of newcomers aren't on Dojo's player list, so it's a wrongful assumption to just think they're "gone."—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 23:02, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Saying that is like saying that Fox has no final smash just becuase there isn't one now. On the Dojo site before May and the daily updates, Met Knight had a little section on him along with Zero suit samus, pit, wario and Solid snake(so don't bring him up either) so they are confirmed to be playable even if the new site hasn't gotton around to given him a section.→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  12:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Besides his picture was seen in some of the sites list few updates, so I agree they haven't given Meta Knight a section yet. Look at their update archive for the Four Special Moves Type and Gliding sections for your proof. With that this conversation should now be over. -Adv193 14:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Give Sakurai time. He probably has his reasons. We've been getting new stuff instead reestablishing stages and characters seen in the trailers (what's with the Mario Circuit?). We'll see it all in due time. (Zojo 15:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC))


 * And now, we have him confirmed. I wonder if they read Wikipedia :P 69.182.106.175 07:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Confirmed --Kenny2k 07:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah they did read our archives. They even made it seem like there was a confusion on what Metaknight's relationship with Kirby is (we had an argument about that not too long ago) (Zojo 22:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC))


 * This one?  You Can ' t Review Me!!! 22:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Boxart?
It seems like this may be the official boxart of the game. Even though I would normally be skeptical about the boxart of the game, this caught my attention since every character is in a position that hasn't been shown in any screenshot so far. Does anyone else know if this is fake or not? Unknownlight 00:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Hm, could be. But it's not a source from Nintendo, so we can't put it in the article. &mdash; Malcolm (talk) 00:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That's probably the most possible box-art that's been brought up here. BassxForte 00:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I personally think it's pretty realistic, but it's too small to use even if there were proof of its validity.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 00:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I would say it's almost completely new, original art, but its resolution is too low. Basically, we can't put it in for two reasons: We need an additional, primary source to back it up, and either way we need to find a higher resolution image. - Zero1328 Talk? 01:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking that the art is definitely real, but no. Why would Nintendo give a picture to that website and that website only. I've never even heard of it. It even gets the release date wrong, so how much more can we question its reliability? It's possible it's just a really, really, I mean REALLY good photoshop. 24.186.101.182 02:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The two doubts you expressed could be easily explained. The release date on the site says December 4, instead of December 3. It's called a "typo". It's possible that Nintendo may have recently released the box art, and/or it wasn't supposed to be shown yet. We don't know. That's why, like I just said, we need a second image form another source for confirmation. We just have to wait. It's a waste of time and energy to argue, if that's all we need to do. - Zero1328 Talk? 02:35, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Specu -to the- lation is wack bro. Word. Atomic Religione 02:52, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I know you were trying to make the atmosphere less tense but.. that was wierd. - Zero1328 Talk? 02:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Message recieved homie. Atomic Religione 03:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it's safe to assume the box art will be based on the Subspace Emissary...maybe (Zojo 15:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC))

That doesn't necessarily have to be the case. 24.186.101.182 15:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's just agree that we won't add any boxart to the article until we get something official. This may very well be the actual boxart, but lets hold off adding it for now. Joiz A|A. Shmo 16:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

If you zoom in on your computer you see: Link, Pikichu, Mario, META KNITE [in the right corner], Peach, Kirby, Wario, PIT, Fox [in the center], Pokemon trainer, and Samus. I know it might not be real but just in case.The Wii Guy 03:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Can we still wait until Nintendo releases the boxart? Lightwing1988 11:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

GameCrazy is using it too, http://gonintendo.com/?p=24340.

This is starting to look like the real deal, so as soon as Nintendo releases a press release for it or at their pre TGS show, we'll have it set here. I also want to add that the WiFi icon is missing, but before anyone says this proves/disproves their theory about WiFi, Pokemon Diamond and Pearl's PRESS RELEASE boxes by Nintendo did not show the WiFi icon until MUCH later on.ChibiMrBubbles 01:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Further evidence is the rating on the box, it's still pending. That means that attached symbols and logos are still tentative, as well as the cover itself. I'm not saying that it's unofficial, though. That's different. - Zero1328 Talk? 06:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Wheather it's the real art or not is irrelevent, it's too small to be used in the article, once we get a bigger picture we can make something of it. BassxForte 07:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * GameCrazy's looks big enough (269, 375), but we should wait for official confirmation. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  12:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

All it takes is for one website to post it then everybody does. Wait until Nintendo's official sites or magazines show it. (Zojo 22:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC))


 * If you really must pull the NOT OFFICAL tag on us, then where did the art for the pics come from? I'm sure that you can't use photoshop to make THAT convincing a fake. I say put it but warn it's unnoficial and pending. Maybe a caption saying "Box art provided is unnoficial" or something to that extent. Quatreryukami 18:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

This is the box art being used on amazon.com:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7695/51wbamttvulss400wh2.jpg

All of the artwork is brand-new. It looks pretty damn legit to me. Phediuk 18:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * IGN is also using the boxart, though Gamespot has yet to join the club. While I'm generally of the opinion that we should wait for Nintendo in severe cases, I'm less an advocate of that as much as I am an advocate of reliable sourcing, of which Nintendo would obviously be topdog.  However, IGN and Gamespot, as legit video game news sites, count as "reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", and are used extremely often for cited information and links in various game articles on Wikipedia during preview timeframes.  As far as WP policy is concerned, there is now nothing against the rules about using this boxart.  If it turns out to be wrong (or, less majorly, just needs to be switch with the final version once it gets the appropriate ESRB rating and extra logos), then obviously we will get rid of this version, but there's still no longer anything wrong with using this one. Arrowned 19:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the boxart is very convincing. Note that if it was leaked it should have had atleast more chacacters in it which I found suscpicious. Though this can be an early boxart from nintendo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.153.155.19 (talk) 20:48, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Well if all the other sites are using it...let's use it too (I'm not being sarcastic). There's nothing misleading about it. It doesn't have people like Sonic and Jphn Madden as characters so it's not promoting some lie. Use it. (Zojo 22:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC))


 * There's still something suspicious about it displaying every character confirmed up to that point and only characters confirmed up to that point. I know it would be a rather difficult to fake, especially since the characters' poses appear to be original, but I know several artistic friends who could do the same sort of thing with anime characters. All it takes is quite a bit of talent. I think we ought to hold off for a bit longer, just to be sure.  You Can ' t Review Me!!! 23:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thing is, it's not displaying every character confirmed up to any point. Yoshi, DK, Ike, Bowser, and Zelda are all missing (Snake too, but that's not unexpected.) I personally don't think there are many starting characters left to go anyway; we already know more than Melee's starting roster. --HeroicJay 00:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I would say use the box art for now. There's enough valid sources using the box art. Why does the image have to be a high resolution to use it? If the image is a high resolution, the image can fail fair use policies for images. Douglasr007 17:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * EBgames is now using the box. http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=230015 JesseMeza 20:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * GameTrailers is now using it too. Look, there is nothing against the WP policy that keeps this boxart from being used. The policy states that there must be at least one reliable source linking to any statement, this boxart has more than enough. Two reliable sources (IGN and GameTrailers) several semi-reliable sources (like GoNintendo) and quite a few other websites (e.g. EB Games and Amazon.com) that are using it. What I think we should do is put the cover in the article and below it simply say "Boxart subject to change". It was the same with the Super Mario Galaxy boxart, why should it be different here? Unknownlight 04:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I just want to say that the boxart was fake on the SMG page check here. Sorry I just had to say that, anyway the boxart was posted on a fake boxart hosting site here on 09/03/07, the day this disscussion was started.....→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  12:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That doesn't disprove it. It's full of user submitted content, real images can still go in. Just look at the username, too.. at most, this just adds more confusion to the whole thing. - Zero1328 Talk? 12:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I originally said higher resolution, not high. The first appearance of the image was an extremely low resolution(less than 100x100px), making it useless to present the subject. That's not a problem now. - Zero1328 Talk? 12:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally I feel there is nothing stopping this boxart from being used on the Wikipedia page, seeing as we have a higher resolution now. If other legit sites (which have ties and links to Nintendo) believe that it is real then why not put it up? It would only be misleading if the other sites had no boxart. Unless the person who made the boxart was one heck of an artist and Photoshop user then it has to be real. - XINVADER Talk? 16:40, 8 September 2007 (GMT)

I think it looks fishy. 69.202.119.212 17:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * EB Games is now using one with the "Nintendo WiFi" logo on it. http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=230015 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.244.70.99 (talk) 19:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Now they aren't, they changed back to the placeholder art. So what does that tell you, buku? -Sukecchi 12:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As is Gamestop. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  01:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but EB and GameStop are the same now, so that's still only one source. Personally, I could see EB adding that to the boxart to boost preorder numbers, especially since most of the general public assumes that Wi-Fi is confirmed rather than just heavily hinted at and they wouldn't want people to think it's been canceled. I dunno, my suggestion would be to keep the one we have until we have sources for (A) Wi-Fi confirmation, (B) extra verification on this boxart and (C) a higher resolution version-- just like we did for the one we have now. --llamapalooza87 06:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure its fake...I don't really know. Since the characters on the box are ones that have been confirmed, there is a possibility it is fake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.99.15 (talk) 02:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Suit battle
I'm just gonna throw in that technically, the Varia suit is a modulation of her power suit, not a replacement. Either way, the difference of 5 letters is nothing to get into an angry argument about. It IS possible to have a normal discussion where everyone can give their opinions. Just don't let it deteriorate to personal attacks. That IS what this talk page is supposed to be for.DurinsBane87 16:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Is it really necessary to describe it in any more detail than just calling it her "suit" or "armour"? Why not just keep it simple and avoid the issue alltogether? MarkSutton 17:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, I'm just trying to ensure that the little edit war about it doesn't escalate. DurinsBane87 17:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, just calling it a suit would be fine. My point was that it was specifically the Varia Suit and I thought the page would look better if it called it as such. Lightwing1988 seemed to not be imformed on Samus' suit and its upgrades, and I was trying to inform him/her on the differences.

The Dojo's words are not always correct. If it said that Fox was a woman, does that mean it is correct? If it said Mario was German, does that mean it's correct? If it said Diddy was DK's son, et cetera.Satoryu 18:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * But would the site ever do such a thing? InsaneZeroG 20:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Not likely. Even if it did, though, then we'd have to go by that; Smash and the other games don't seem to be in the same continuity, so for all intents and purposes, Mario could be German, Fox could be a woman, Diddy could be DK's son, and Samus' regular suit could be the Power Suit regardless of their original backgrounds.
 * In any case, I'm all for simply using the word "suit" or "armor" without a title; personally, I'd go with the latter, since she is still wearing a suit underneath, albeit one that is not armored. Let's just settle this now before somebody files a (wait for it...) lawsuit. Ahahahahaha! Erm, yeah...  You Can ' t Review Me!!! 20:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * OTL. We don't have to go by it. We're not going to take EVERY single word said on the Dojo as law if we clearly know its wrong. Here's a better example. If the Dojo says Samus uses the Gravity Suit, would we have to go with that?
 * Frankly, this disregard to continuity is a stupid argument. The Smash Bros. games still acknowledge the character's pasts; they never retconned anything as far as I know.Satoryu 21:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Sakurai probably said "Power Suit" to avoid any confusion about Samus' abilities in Brawl. Saying it's her Varia Suit might make people think she can change suits that effect her defense such as they do in the Metroid series. Sakurai made it simple for us by saying Power Suit. (Zojo 22:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC))


 * I agree. Power Suit is rather generic. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  01:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The thing is, Sakurai isn't posting in English. A translator is translating what he says into English, and then from there, someone translates it all into the other sub-languages. The word "power suit" isn't specific to Metroid/Samus, nor does it need to be capitalized. It's just a Japanese word describing space suits such as those in Halo or in Sci-fi media. The same thing happened a while back when Pikachu's Final Smash was revealed and the translation said "Electric Ball" instead of the name used in the games - "Light Ball". *kaburicho 15:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

New special moves
I'm not completely for or against this, but I am wondering... Should there be a mention of how some of the veteran fighters will have new special moves? Granted, Mario is the only veteran that we know has a new special move so far, so saying that more characters than just Mario may have new special moves is speculation at this point (though chances are there will be more veterans with new special moves). Or is this minute bit of info deemed unimportant to the article, like half of the stuff revealed on the official website? D i saster K i rbyTalk 17:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As far as I am concerned it seemed to be a hasty decision and it looks doubtful that explaining new special moves is a waste for this page at least, unlike the Melee page because that page needed to mention the addition of a fourth special move. The only way I could think of for it to work (Though the chances of happening are also low) is to explain it as a revisements to a veteran character but only if there are more examples for other veteran characters and it be done with the minimum of words because Wikipedia is not a game guide, nor does give out strategies. -Adv193 17:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If this happens to a few other veterans, then we could mention it. Or if a new special move command is introduced, like Diagonal B. [/speculation] But as of now, leave the article alone.Satoryu 18:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I agree that speculation on other vets is not good, but this is notable IMO because up until now, Mario used the Tornado, and F.L.U.U.D doesn't even do damage. It might be a notable change, even if for the sake of clues to things to come. Quatreryukami 18:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's just a character's moveset changing. Ex. Link's boomerang was just his special move in the first but it changed to his side special move. And there is absolutely no diaganol B. Sakurai already covered the 4 special moves in one update. And by Sakurai's math when he was calculating Pokemon Trainer's special moves, it comes down to each character only having 4. (Zojo 19:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC))


 * It's very much so possible that they could include a fifth B move. Just because it wasn't on that particular update doesn't mean it couldn't be in the game.Satoryu 20:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The idea of a fifth special move still sounds like a hoax to me. But I'll support a possible sentence addition on the revisements when the time is right, as long as it isn't too broad. -Adv193 20:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * To quote the site: "He still seems to have this move, though.

Eh? Is it a normal attack?!" In other words, it is not a fifth special move, but rather a standard attack (equivalent to A+tilt moves in Melee). With that out of the way, this is starting to get forumish.  You Can ' t Review Me!!! 00:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * He wrote that as a question. He didn't confirm or deny that Mario Tornado was an A Move. And that's the last of it you'll hear from me.Satoryu 18:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I know, it is starting to get dull and this isn't the right time to talk about the subject any further until more verifiable details are uncovered, so this is the last you will here from me on this subject until then. -Adv193 03:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

My Music
This morning, Sakurai anounced a new option called My Music that lets players choose the likelyhood that any given song will play on a stage. This is a big change from the previous two instalments, because they had only one or two songs per stage, but Brawl will have at least five or six on each. Is this notable enough to be put on the article?--Mayor Coffee Bean 10:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How about a quick sentence at the end of the stages section along the lines of "Players can now choose which background music plays during each stage and can increase the available selection by collecting CDs during gameplay (link to Dojo as reference)"? MarkSutton 11:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

From what he said, each stage can play any music in the game, not just a subset of it. I support your wording of it. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  12:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC) That works for me. --Mayor Coffee Bean 12:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, from what I've seen, the Brawl page doesn't have a section dedicated to the game's music. Given what we know about My Music, some of the songs, and the vast list of composers/arrangers assisting on the game, would it be worth parsing the music into its own section in the article?--4.243.38.5 13:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I second this. Most video game articles have a separate section for the game's music/soundtrack anyway. Until the game's soundtrack is released, this section can detail most of what has been announced (via posts) regarding the composers, music, and My Music section. *kaburicho 15:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree. A skeleton section (or subsection or subsubsection or ...) will do for now. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  23:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

So... anyone care to go ahead and add that music section now? The talk is over and the idea is unopposed...Fiveinacan 19:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added a basic one using the text above. It needs some fleshing out. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  01:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added more to it, including past info on composers and the new "My Music" section. *kaburicho 04:23, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have a problem with the wording of the My Music sentence. From what Sakurai said, every stage will be able to play any song in the game. Nowhere in the update does it say only some stages will have this option or only some of the game's music will be selectable for each stage. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  04:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You're right! I read it wrong in both languages :P, it was the song itself that will be left without any new arrangement, not the stage. *kaburicho 04:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

It appears stages can't just play any song in the game. Notice the screenshots. The Bridge of Eldin stage features only Zelda music, while Delfino Plaza shows only Mario music. -- POWERSLAVE  09:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you not see the arrows? That implies that there is more music then that. Dengarde ► Complaints 15:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Aye, more music of that respective franchise... -- POWERSLAVE  16:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * And how would you know THAT? None of us do. For all we know it's simply listd as respective franchises for perpouses of the updates, as Dojo has done in many of their pics before. I can sum up your theory in one phrase. Original Reasearch. Dengarde ► Complaints 16:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

"With the "My Music" feature, you can enjoy the music of our many musicians any way you like. Choose freely from our diverse selection of famous songs! ...If your motivation behind your song selections is simply because you like them, then that’s just fine. Choose your settings as you like." Yeah, it sounds like we have complete freedom on our song selection for stages. It seems Go KK Rider can be played on Lylat Cruise if so desired. (Zojo 21:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC))


 * Actually, I think you're reading it wrong now, not before. In the English Dojo, the update says "...I think it’s a bit of a waste to limit that whole universe to just one song." after talking about how some people may have grown up on the original Super Mario Bros and some on the newer ones. That seems to imply a wish to expand the music selection to more songs of that universe. The confusion seems to be coming from the phrase "Of course, if you want to, you can limit a stage to only one song, or make every song in the game equally likely to appear." I submit to you the possibility that you are misinterpreting this and that what is meant is that every song can be equally likely to appear because all stages are equally likely to appear and all songs amongst those stages are equally likely to appear. This does fit well with what the screenshots show us - songs from the stage's home universe - listed for likelihood adjustment for that stage. I'm fairly new to editing Wikipedia, so I'm not 100% certain what the people will or won't consider original research. I know what the policy page SAYS, but it can be interpreted in slightly different ways. I hope you can see that I am not attempting to make what you would call original research (and am sorry if I did), but rather correcting what I believe to be a misinterpretation of a source. I realize this does tread dangerously close to original research, and some of you may still call it that. For those of you who do not, consider it carefully.Fiveinacan 21:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You are right. It's very confusing.  From "With the "My Music" feature, you can enjoy the music of our many musicians any way you like. Choose freely from our diverse selection of famous songs!" it makes you think that there is no limit to your song selection.  Then you get to the middle with the screenshots and everything, you get the feeling that your selection is limited to the series' songs.  But when I got to, "If your motivation behind your song selections is simply because you like them, then that’s just fine. Choose your settings as you like," it made me think we have complete freedom of song selection.  Especially when you think back to Melee when you could listen to Balloon Fight on Ice Climber stage, Mach Rider on FZero stage, and Fire Emblem on Zelda stage.  It's...a tough call (Zojo 21:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC))


 * Until we know for sure, this is all OR. We should keep it close to Dojo's wording (which MarkSutton's phrasing at the top does). Say each stage is limited to a certain selection or that any song is available is OR. Also saying only some stages can be changed or that they all can is OR. Dojo doesn't say any of those four and we can't either. At least not until we know more. &mdash; Jaxad  0127  22:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Looking at some past updates, it makes it very clear that songs are limited to certain stages. From Battlefield: "The song called Menu 1 found under the topic The Musicians plays on this stage."

From Go K.K. Rider: "It hardly needs to be said that this music plays in Smashville."

From Pokémon: Pokémon Stadium/Evolution: "This is the song for Pokémon Stadium." If those songs could be played on any stage, then why would Sakurai bother to mention it plays on those stages? 75.153.231.20 22:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you ever hear of something called "default settings"? My Music is your own, personal settings.
 * I mean, seriously. Come on.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 23:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Could you please point out where Sakurai said they were default settings? Or if there even is a default setting? Notice how he didn't say "this is the song that plays on any stage you want", It would be rather arbitrary to specifically mention where those songs play if they could play on any stage. Chances are that if there is so much music in the game, there will be more than one "default song" with the same odds of playing, unlike Melee. Think things through before getting snippy. 75.153.231.20 23:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The Japanese website does not mention "every song in the game", it just says "all songs". Take it as it may, it could be a translation error, or it could be close to the truth. For now, let's leave it as is. Also, I'm removing the statement about Uematsu as it's not really important or necessary. *kaburicho 23:42, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Number of third party characters to be included
The "citation needed" at the end of the article was needed, I think. I did some googling and I couldn't find any official interview that actually had Sakurai say "2 or 3 third party characters." Should that fact at the end just be omitted since the closest thing we have at the moment has already been mentioned (Miyamoto and co. negotiating with other corporations for third party characters)? Unless someone can find an official interview that says otherwise.Falco x Fox 22:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

It was on Sakurai's offical blog, Toukoken. Since the site was revamped, it no longer exists, but translations of it do. 75.153.231.20 22:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Does this Character select screen look real to you?
On a website not so long ago I found This I immediately thought it was fake, but the Music update is making me think otherwise. If you look at the top left of the music menu screens you can see the menu has a sort of folder design, with a circle (red on the char screen, purple on the music screen, kind of like the smash bros website's buttons)... There are also four slashes on the right, of the respective colors. The text in the menu is layed out the same way.

I don't know how much proof that offers, but the fact that the picture was updated a few days before this update has me thinking that this might be the real thing...The Wii Guy 20:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If you look at the other picture in that guy's photostream, you'll see another character selection screen, with the characters all rearranged, which leads me to believe that this is poppycock. Anyway, where in the hell would some random guy get a copy of SSBB that? I'm very inclined to think that this is fake... in fact it is fake, there's no doubt in my mind! Oh and I'm not blaming you, Mr./Mrs. no signy. Yoshiguy 20:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah...the chances it's real seem very low. &mdash; Malcolm (talk) 20:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact that Luigi's picture has Pikachu's name under it alone makes it incredibly shifty. Arrowned 20:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Didn't even notice that. :) Definitely fake. &mdash; Malcolm (talk) 20:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. That Animal Crossing character in the bottom right is part of the Smashville stage, and therefore, presumably unplayable. --AgreeneyedFox 20:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Tom Nook pretty much nails it as fake. C'mon guys!  When would Nintendo ever let something like this slip?  (Zojo 22:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Final nail in the coffin: This is likely the origin of the design similarities.  You Can ' t Review Me!!! 01:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I would love to note quickly that the glare in the second picture... it was pretty funny to me how precise it was in blocking "Pikachu" (really Luigi).. what I'm trying to say is, ghare is fake. --ShadowSlave 14:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ShadowSlave (talk • contribs)