Talk:Super Smash Bros. Brawl/Archive 26

Archive, please read
The page hit 87kb, it's time to archive again. Please, before starting a new topic, make sure it has not already been covered in the FAQ. Specifically, do not open new topics regarding Zelda / Sheik, the new release date, Famitsu's perfect score, or adding move lists to articles unless you have a new, valid point or contribution. Frivolous forum discussion will always be reverted. Coreycubed (talk) 18:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Assist Trophies
I think that assist trophies ought to have a bigger explanation. Currently, there is only one sentence about them, and it is shared with Poké Balls. They seem to be important, from what I've read on the DOJO!! and I don't think that they should just be mentioned as temporarily summoned guest characters. They are something new to the Smash Bros. series, and Poké Balls are just returning from Melee, so that should automatically make Assist Trophies more important. So, does anyone agree? Epass (talk) 21:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Short answer: No. Long answer: Can you suggest how we can go into more detail, without having played the game or knowing more about the significance of assist trophies? They're just items that happen to be characters. It's a new element, and that has been noted. Maybe after release, there will be more to say. Coreycubed (talk) 22:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Assist Trophies act exactly the same as Pokeballs. The only difference is that Pokeballs summon Pokemon, while ATs summon anything else. It's fine the way it is.Satoryu (talk) 23:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, for one you could clear up rumors about Waluigi and Lyn being playable, because they are confirmed assist trophies. Secondly, maybe put in some of the popular characters that can be found in assist trophies, like hammer bros and nintendogs, throw in the capsule's appearance, and that is a fair bit of detail. The DOJO!! managed to make a section of it. It is just like the characters section, really. They have a list of the characters currently released and they have a list of Assist Trophies. It tells you what each character special moves are, and what Assistant's are, but you really don't know all about them. They really haven't released anymore information on characters than they do on Assist Trophies. I think there is enough information, check out the DOJO!! article on it. http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/items/assist/assist01.html Epass (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * What rumors? We know all of this. On the Smash Brothers Series article we have a list of characters. Within that list are hidden tags that state that the AT Characters are not playable. -Sukecchi (talk) 12:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, you'd be surprised. More than half the fan sites a look at say things like, "Do you think Lyn is playable? I hope she is playable." Or things like "Well, Wario's in the game, so it is obvious that Waluigi will be." Please note that that is not the exact words. Epass (talk) 12:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I've learned to never be surprised by the idiocy of people who post on SmashBoards, GameFAQs, or YouTube. People who come here from fan sites are typically out of their league. At any rate, I'm happy with the section the way it is. Like I said, if you can propose a rewrite of the section that does not delve into cruft, I'd love to see it. If you do a rewrite, and you want us to review it first (so it doesn't get reverted if it's too crufty) then post it here or in a sandbox under your User: space. Coreycubed (talk) 13:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Solo v. Single Player
Which should be the section heading. Commence discussion here instead of constantly reverting. I will be letting those who changed it know on their talk pages about this discussion. Trevor  "Tinkleheimer"   Haworth  04:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no need for a discussion here on this specifically; we've talked about it before and its in the archives. In fact, it should probably be added to the FAQ.  The consensus was to use Solo because we want to go with the mode names listed on the screenshot of Brawl's main menu. Arrowned (talk) 04:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well there were 3 changes on it from 3 different editors. I didn't know about the discussion. I guess if anyone has any new reason to support their view, post it here. Trevor   "Tinkleheimer"   Haworth  04:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * While I agree with Arrowned, I can't find said archived discussion after a quick look. Arrowned, could you link the part in reference so I can update the FAQ accordingly? In other news, apparently people don't read the article or the talk page. Coreycubed (talk) 06:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * My apologies, I was sure we had this discussion before, but you're right, it's not in the archives. So it should be given its chance to build up steam here and get everyone's opinion in before we make a FAQ addition about it. Arrowned (talk) 16:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Arrowned also. Whatever it is really called on the main menu is what it should be called in the article, I don't see why there is need for discussion on it. Epass (talk) 19:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

cover art
When i got a new game the booklets advertising newer games enclosed had different cover art than what we have for Brawl. Whats the deal? SxeFluff (talk) 04:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)]] 22:28, 16 January 2007
 * Those booklets are out of date. The box art we have is the official box art.Satoryu (talk) 04:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense
Is it just me, or are the release dates still listed as the older ones? The history, I think shows them correct, but not the article. 24.22.147.163 (talk) 05:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Read a tad bit closer. The article lists all release dates the game has had since its announcement, including the latest ones at the end of that paragraph. Arrowned (talk) 05:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I mean in the information box on the right at the top. Not that it matters anymore, as it now is appearing, to me, correctly. 24.22.147.163 (talk) 18:06, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Stage count
I saw that in the background there was a clear count on the stage select screen. I think that this means that we can get a very rouge estimate of the number of stages. 3% for a very early save, I estimate about 30-35 stages in the end. But I think we need a little more precise number before we can talk about adding it in the article, right?--Henke37 (talk) 10:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * In the SSE, I saw it too, but it can still be called orginal reasherch. There could have been check marks behind that diffucilty select. Way too early to state anything in the article.→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  12:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no evidence to suggest that every stage in the game will be present in Subspace Emissary (or that they won't). The Melee article also doesn't mention the exact number of stages anywhere other than one screenshot of the stage select screen. Not to keep using Melee's article as a barometer, but it's way too early to even be considering a stage overview or synopsis for Brawl besides what's already there. Coreycubed (talk) 15:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Sticker Power Ups
Is this noteable enough to add into the article. It was previously added, but removed by an editor citing WP:GAMEGUIDE. I feel that they are noteable enough to be added, but only in one specific part. Not both Subspace Emissary and Vault sections, just one or the other. Trevor  "Tinkleheimer"   Haworth  14:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could add it in the items section.--DarkFierceDeityLink 14:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Already handled. A sentence was added in the sticker section, and the sentence about the "method that has never been seen before" was replaced. Proper references were added in both cases. This should suffice. Coreycubed (talk) 15:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that, it just looked very much out of place, with the information set across two sections, without proper refs, and using the word "you". Logan GBA (talk) 22:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No, no, no -- nothing to apologize for! You did good reverting that. I meant I came along later and revised the article properly. Monday - Friday, this article usually starts with someone coming along and adding in a bit about the latest update wherever the hell they feel like putting it, with no regards to the Manual of Style, references, etc. Then one of the regulars comes along and reverts it, decides if it's notable or not, then adds it (correctly). So, no apologies necessary -- you're SUPPOSED to keep stuff like that off of Wikipedia when you see it. :) Coreycubed (talk) 00:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Reception reliable?
All source claim an unknown leak of a game scan can we find a link directly from Famitsu? 63.76.234.250 (talk) 15:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Which sources are you referring to? Famitsu is a well-known and respected periodical. Issue number has been properly referenced. Please include a link or more information detailing how this "unknown leak" disproves information currently in the article. Coreycubed (talk) 15:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Notice: Challenges Added
I put in a bit about the Challenges menu at the end of the Vault section. If anyone has any qualms to express, this is where to do it...but I think it will be fine. It does need a citation, though, so can somebody put that in? I always mess those up. :P Erik (talk) 01:46, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Zero Suit's FS
I just noticed something Mr. Tricky Sakurai Did. Everyone go on to Dojo and click on ANY character's page. Any one. Scroll down a bit. EVERY character has both their special moves and final smash revealed. I mean EVERY character. Go see for yourself. Well anyway, looking through all of the characters, I chanced upon Zero Suit's Final Smash. Her final Smash is changing BACK into Power Suit Samus. She doesn't unleash any sort of attack, just kinda... changes back. I mean when PS Samus does her FS, she does a huge blast THEN becomes ZS Samus. But Zero Suit just... changes back. Should this be mentioned? 24.186.101.182 (talk) 21:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No, because #1: the article doesn't talk about individual Final Smashes beyond a cursory mention they exist, and #2: we don't know what else that specific Final Smash entails. It could damage opponents, or it could heal her slightly (this would make the most sense to be consistent with Super Metroid), or it could do something else entirely.  Since we don't know, we won't mention it. Arrowned (talk) 21:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

But it's the most unique final smash becuase it's not an attack, but simply a transformation. If the attack did anything I'm sure Sakurai wouldn't have just named it "Power Suit Samus", kinda like he named Samus' attack "Zero Laser" rather than just "Zero Suit Samus". 24.186.101.182 (talk) 22:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No, you see, he said we don't know if it does anything else besides returning the Power Suit. -Sukecchi (talk) 22:17, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Further, although Samus's is the most extreme, Bowser and Wario also have Final Smashes that transform them. -Jéské ( Blah v^_^v ) 22:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Yea but you see, Bowser and Wario's transformations are ATTACKS as well. Zero-Suit just changes back to her normal self. It's not an attack or anything. Sure she can do attacks AS her normal self, but that's not apart of her final smash. Her final smash is just, changing. You catch my drift? I understand that Zero-Suit may end up doing something in the process of changing, though, so I guess we'll leave it alone as of now. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 23:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)EDIT: I've found viable and sufficient evidence that Zero-Suits FS does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING other than turn her back into her normal self. Take a look at 00:49-00:54. All I see is a flash of light around Zero Suit, than normal Samus emerges from the light, floating in the sky, then slowly floating down. Seeing as how Zero-Suits' FS is the ONLY FS so far that is not an attack, it should be mentioned shouldn't it? It's unique because every other character attacks in their final smash where Zero Suit doesn't. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 23:17, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, no they aren't. They merely *enhance* attacks (to detrimental result in Wario-Man's case when he uses his hog). -Jéské ( Blah  v^_^v ) 00:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Peach Blossom begs to differ. It's not necessary. -Sukecchi (talk) 23:21, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You still don't know for sure that's all it does. Again, if it's anything like the Crystal Flash from Super Metroid, it could heal her, which you can't tell from that video because she was already at 0% damage when she changed back.  Either way, this whole "it's not an attack/it doesn't do anything/it could do something we don't know" discussion is speculation and therefore against Wikipedia's rules to mention. Arrowned (talk) 23:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

That video you showed PROVES you wrong. You see how the crate that's near her gets sucked in? That clearly shows it does do other things than just changing ZSS back to normal. I don't have any links but there are reports coming from Whobby 2008 that if anyone is right next to ZSS when she preforms her FS they get massive damage. Even though I have no proof of that part, the video does show that it sucked in that crate and does have other effects besides just changing ZSS back to Samus. Shyrangerr (talk) 14:07, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

alright alright calm down. I didn't see the box there before. I guess you MIGHT be right, and you probably are. I just thought that if ZS's FS did nothing it would be a good idea to mention it, and I still hold true to that idea. But since you've proven me wrong and that ZS's FS DOES do something, well then I'm at a dead end. I'm actually happy that ZS's FS does something, otherwise it would've been a complete waste of a unique character. Anyways, whatever. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 19:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


 * What does any of this have to do with editing Wikipedia or the article? Coreycubed (talk) 19:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Famitsu says no Marth and Roy (please look )
Title: "Do you Remember Marth and Roy?"

They are touched upon in the column page, but these two participated in Melee from the Fire Emblem series. One of them is Marth who's from the game Fire Emblem and the Sword of the Dark Dragon and Light. The other is Roy who comes from Fire Emblem The Sword of Seals. Marth wields a fast flowing sword, and though immature Roy wields a potent blade. Can Ike surpass his two predecessors? Stay tuned!" They point out that they are Ike's predecessors, meaning they're not in Brawl. Since the magazine is doing these features on old characters, is this the final nail in the coffin for Ness? --DarkFierceDeityLink 01:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC) http://brawlcentral.com/

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c283/fallingstarlane/IMG_0913.jpg


 * Your interpretation of the word predecessors is speculation. That Marth and Roy preceded Ike is a fact just like Mario and Luigi preceded Wario. It does not necessarily mean anything in regards to this game. Furthermore, even if Marth or Roy were removed from this game, it would have no bearing on this article. I suggest you take character confirmations and the like to the series article where the list of playable characters is located. 68.4.175.152 (talk) 01:29, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * First of all thats from Famitsu which is a usable. 2nd its not speculation.And 3rd if you were smart enough to look at the links i have provided you can see I didn't use "predecessors" Famitsu did and also if you were smart enough you would look it up and see it means what they said.--DarkFierceDeityLink 01:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I kind of agree with the anonymous here. Interpreting something published in Famitsu is considered original research: If we have a reference that says A = B, and another that says B = C, saying that A = C without a reliable reference is considered original research. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 01:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really Famitsu confirmed sheik way before dojo did and we used it so I believe we should use this.--DarkFierceDeityLink 01:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Famitsu is as reliable source as any.--DarkFierceDeityLink 01:49, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course. But they confirmed someone to be there. Now they are not confirming these two characters are not there, they are just talking around whether the newcomer will be better than the predecessors. Unless they say "These two characters are not going to be there", it is not good enough. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 01:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * They are saying that you guys are to damn picky all you care about is dojo. Thats all i hear in this place and the playable page. If you read the thing its states that Marth and Roy are out and pretty soon Ness will be too.--DarkFierceDeityLink 01:55, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, "they" say that? *sniff* And I thought "they" liked me :-(
 * Now truly speaking, tell them to go read our policy. I care very little about this article (I have done very few edits here, just vandalism control mostly), but I care about our policies, and if "they" aren't happy with them, well, then "they" have no place here until they learn about our policies. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 01:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

We took the Sheik pictures as fact because we could see clear as day two pictures of a newly designed Sheik in action. We didn't need translations for Sheik. But we do with these supposed debunkings. You're honestly going to believe translations from Brawl Central? Stop getting info from them. They're not reliable.Satoryu (talk) 02:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * As a sidenote, I would have objected the usage of pictures as reference, but as I said, I am not regular of this article, just came for the vandalism that was issuing here some minutes ago. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Bro, you seriously need to calm yourself down. Let's think this out. As mentioned somewhere above, Mario and Luigi are the predecessors to Wario as the first male representatives of the Mario series. Just because Marth and Roy are the predecessors to Ike does not mean that they are being REPLACED by Ike. Because that isn't exactly the definition of a predecessor. And plus, translation protocols aren't so great when you're talking about going from Japanese to English. Some of the words might've been switched around and therefore you may just be interpreting what you saw in the translation. Thirdly, even if what you are saying had the slightest chance of being true, where on earth would we put it in this article? Famitsu is a reliable source, as reliable as DOJO, I'm not saying it's not. What I'm saying is that Famitsu did not say "Hey guys, Marth and Roy aren't in brawl. It's true". 24.186.101.182 (talk) 02:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

But it says up until now., SO NESS CAN'T BE IN! Trevor  "Tinkleheimer"   Haworth  05:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

So what are you impling, Satoryu? That all the information they got at the Whobby event is false? Brawl Central gives out accurate information (except with translations, those I can't trust unless someone like SamuraiPanda at the Smashboard translates) I agree with DarkFierceDeityLink when he says that you guys are too picky, your motto is "Not Dojo, not real"! Well, what if we HAD no Dojo, ever?!? I'm not saying I beleive the article, but if it's true, then my guess is Ness has been replaced by Lucas, Marth has been replaced by Takamaru (Sakurai commented on a question involving Takamaru), and Roy has been replaced by Ike. (66.214.8.7 (talk) 16:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC))
 * We have used Famitsu before, first off. Second, your guesses have NO relevance here. No one's guesses do. DurinsBane87 (talk) 16:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If they use words like "up until now" "Do you remember" dont you think that means you can kiss them good-bye? I really don't think it means they are coming back, I don't understand why we cant just put an X on them and if wrong we could always change it.--DarkFierceDeityLink 17:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Talk:Super Smash Bros. (series)/Archive_6. Some of you relatively new users should have been here long enough to know our safe stance on "If the wording is not absolutely clear or can be taken to mean several different things, it's not proof" applies, regardless of character involved. Arrowned (talk) 17:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * DurinsBane87, I know my guess doesn't have relevance, I wanted to say my output. And from what I've seen, you people don't believe in ANYTHING but the Dojo. And prove to me that Shiek was revealed before the Dojo. Scans of the magazine came AFTER the Dojo update. Unless someone here can give us a TRUE translation, Ness, Marth, and Roy are SPECULATED to be gone. Currently they arren't in or out. (66.214.8.7 (talk) 18:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC))
 * Actually, Sheik was the one time where scanned pictures from Famitsu that were actually citable appeared, and the roster at (series) was subsequently updated prior to a Dojo update. It was the CoroCoro stuff we didn't cite (that was fake anyways), but Famitsu had screencaps, so there was no question.  This also happened back when Sonic was announced with several sites (IGN, Gamespot, Kotaku, and Joystiq I remember offhand) popping up with news that he was in the game several hours before the Dojo update, though in that case the consensus was opposite the Sheik one and everyone decided to wait for Dojo regardless.  But anyway, you can see that there are times where trustworthy/verifiable info drops before Dojo shows it, and that we act on that info.  It's rare, but it happens.  The reason we're ignoring the Ness/Marth/Roy deal here is because nobody that can be considered "reliable, third-party published sources" (again, IGN, Gamespot, and the like would count) has translated those scans; only fans have, and we can't trust those fan translations are correct. Arrowned (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

For what I hope is the last time, please remember that Brawl Central is not a reliable source for information. They have been proven wrong in the past before, and they are not a published source suitable for use in Wikipedia. Famitsu is considered a source, however any translations of their content must be from an authenticated source (i.e., not fan sites). Coreycubed (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yet again, the "expert translators" have been proven wrong with the reveal of Ness. Lesson learned yet? Coreycubed (talk) 15:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)