Talk:Super transformation (Sonic the Hedgehog)/Archive 1

Dark Super Sonic
I've been hearing things about a 'Dark Super Sonic' from Sonic X (the animé) I was wondering if anyone had any info on this and if they would like to add it to the article or mention it here. Well you've heard wrong, bitch.

Team Super
Team super sonic is a main part of sonic heroes so I (and probably other people would like to hear about it. dannyboy955


 * There is a small part mentioning Team Super Sonic further down, I don't think any more needs to be added in my oppinion. --Zikar 17:15, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it should be added because if people don't know about or played Sonic Heroes, they wouldn't know what a Super Sonic team is. --anon

Super Sonic the Hero?
question: would it be worth mentioning that in his super form, sonic usually (though not always) continues to be portrayed as a hero? Djchallis 11:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Not really, only Fleetway's Super Sonic is portrayed as evil, so it only needs to be mentioned on his info (see Super Transformation (other media)).--Zikar 16:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * ah, i hadn't spotted the "other media" page, thanks. i'm impressed you know that though, fleetway was a long time ago! Djchallis 22:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * then shouldn't the section on comic-only super transformations be put in the other media page? also, the reason i got confused was probably because the link at the top says that the current page is about "sonic the hedgehog games", and the other page is about "other media".  the fact that it didn't mention sonic made me think it was about different things.  you've probably thought of all this before, but there's my newbie insight :) Djchallis 22:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed, in fact I added Sonic's name to it recently (but after you asked your question ;) As for knowing a lot about Fleetway, well, I've was around for issue #1 ;) But yes, that other media page contains all other Super Transformations from Archie, Sonic the Comic and Sonic X. :) --Zikar 23:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Theme song
"Sonic Speed Riders" may not be Super Sonic's theme song. It's speculation! Needs a reliable source for <<<< It does have clues it says "Riding On The Wave of Super Sonic'' it might be talking about when Super Sonic fought the Babylon Guardian.

I thought Sonic fought the Babylon Guardian in his normal form. --Alexie 00:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

He did fight him in his normal form

Signed, Jarvis Ganon

Merger.
It's a simple matter of reducing content and only giving the essentials in Sonic the Hedgehog. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:20, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Nope, there's to much information to merge it with Sonic's page without either bulking it massively or removing most of the actual information. I think there was a thing to try and delete/merge this page before and it was voted to leave it as is. Not to mention that Fleetway's Super Sonic is separate character from Sonic. --Zikar 04:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Fan forms
Can people stop including fan forms? The article's supposed to be about the Super Sonic forms seen in official Sonic the Hedgehog media, not free advertising for fan made sprite comics and such --HellCat86 19:25, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Super Sonic predating DBZ? yeah right
I noticed in the introduction a false statement "Super Sonic's appearance (golden hair and aura, changed eye color) is a reference to a Super Saiyan from the Dragonball series, though Super Sonics first appearance predates Super Saiyan by several years."

First of all this makes no sense, how can his first appearance predate a Super Saiyan by several years and still be a refrence to it? It can't and I'll tell you why

While this might be true in America dbz was around in japan in the 80's

therefor Super Sonic is indeed a refrence to DBZ but his first appearance does not in anyway predate the first appearance on a Super Saiyan

anyone disagree?Gibbman 22:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

This is totally right, Super Saiyan form predates Super Sonic. IP recorded 22:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the offending statements until someone can provide credible evidence that Super Sonic appeared before Super Saiyans did. Shaolin Samurai 05:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

What the? Someone just added the statement right back. Get this straight, DBZ 1989 in Japan, Sonic 2 in Japan November 21, 1992. Super Saiyan came before Super Sonic end of story. Im changing it back - Gibbman 20:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Super Sonic and the Super Saiyajins are both based on an old legend about a warrior with golden hair.

I read somewhere that for Sonic the Hedgehog 2, Yuji Naka wanted to have something that came from Japan and the US. Super Sonic, being based after the Super Saiyan, and the Death Egg; being based after the ships from Star Wars. Ryu Ematsu

Archie Super Forms
I have taken away the information on "Chaos Knuckles" and "Turbo tails" from the "Other Super Forms" segment and put them under the "Archie" segment instead. I feel the "Other Super Forms" segment should only discuss those seen in the games. Is everyone OK with that?

actually..I think the section on the other Super forms should be given it's own page and that this article should only focus on Sonic's modes. I'll change it but I wanna get some opinions first Grandmastergalvatron 18:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea to me Onikage725 12:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Not a bad idea, however, I can see Other super forms being merged back to this article after the split because the seperated article won't be big enough or comprehensive. Perhaps this page would do better with a rename to Super forms (Sonic the Hedgehog) but still keep the article focused on Super Sonic. Or something. --DavidHOzAu 01:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good...perhaps all of the information on the super forms of the character should be placed here? Grandmastergalvatron 05:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Super Sonic Article and Sonic Article
Does anyone else think this article isn't really needed. I mean this article, regarldess how long, should be with the Sonic the Hedgehog article since Sonic and Super Sonic are one in the same. In most continuities anyway. UnDeRsCoRe 15:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

There's more to the Super transformation than just Sonic. It's like saying that Super Saiyan should only be in Goku's or Gohan's article. --DavidHOzAu 01:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

is Neo Metal Sonic, Metal Sonic`s super form instead of metal madness\overlord?
The chaos emeralds in sonic heroes was in special stages, rihgt? But who placed them there? Metal sonic maybe, And If he did, he could have used before?

Nah, neo Metal Sonic is more of an upgrade, like E-101 β mk.II. RememberMe? 00:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

We don't know the name, and we don't know the transformation. His changes in the game were completely unexplained.

The name IS official, Sonic Rivals confirmed that.- Eriorguez, 29th December 2006.

Other Super Forms
Deleted this section, the other super forms will be discussed with that character Grandmastergalvatron 19:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

How come there was an edit "suposedly" done by me claiming the existance of a hyper sonic in a ps3 title if I don't know that? I was having dinner at the time of that edit.Czin 03:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe you should change your password? --Zikar 09:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Still, how one could figure it out is beyond me.Czin 15:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Image
I think we should replace the current image at the top of the article with that of Super Sonic from an FMV in the new Sonic game, so that it's uniform with all the other Sonic character pages. Anyone know how to do that? --Zikar 02:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * A noble suggestion but it would be better to use an actual CG pic of him for professional reasons. It seems that the Channel pic is all we'll get since Sega didn't bother to create 3d art of him for Sonic Rivals :/ GrandMasterGalvatron 16:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I've got an image of SS from Sonic Next-gen. how do I post it? Hyper the Hedgehog 07:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure, if it's a nice clean shot. --Zikar 08:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I put one up since it's no longer an article just about Super Sonic. Got screwed by thumbnails as usual.GrandMasterGalvatron 13:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Nice pic! I might resize it though, could do with being a tad bigger to fit in line with the others. --Zikar 21:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Can someone do the same for Shadow? 06 does show his most recent super transformation. DeathGodDragon EDGE 00:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * They are actually identical, since the FMV seems to have been made by the same people, also the Shadow the Hedgehog game has a clearer shot of his Super form. --Zikar 11:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Pretty cool. My one's bull shit compared to that, But I think we should still have the Channel Artwork, with the CGI image in the corner. Hyper the Hedgehog 17:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I just think, if we have a CGI picture of it, we should use it, since it looks better, more official. Plus it keeps in uniform with the other Supers. --Zikar 17:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, can someone get a better pic and Hyper Knuckles? It looks a lil bit too small. DeathGodDragon EDGE 00:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Spacing
What is the deal? Aren't there supposed to be two spaces after the end of a sentence?GrandMasterGalvatron 13:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Technically I think so, yes. --Zikar 13:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't know that. Why two? 83.255.67.167 13:46, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Separation of end of sentences, and use of initials like S.S. or things similar to that nature.GrandMasterGalvatron 21:00, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Changes
Hey GrandmasterGalvatron, we have the same goal here, so I hope that by explaining why I made the changes you reverted that we'll see eye-to-eye or work out a compromise. First.
 * Super Transformation generally gives the character enhanced speed, similar to using a "High Speed Shoes" power up. The transformation also originally gave the character the same effect as the "invincibility" power up. As of Sonic Adventure, taking damage while using Super Transformation will result in the character being thrown back a small distance. Certain enemy attacks will also cost the player losing anywhere from five to 20 rings. The player temporarily loses control in both situations. Even with the transformation enabled, the player can still be lose a life by falling in a bottomless pit, being crushed, or drowning.

to
 * Super Transformation generally gives the character enhanced speed, similar to using a "High Speed Shoes" power up. The transformation also makes the character able to withstand most attacks without taking damage, however some powerful attacks may make the player lose up to twenty rings. However, even while in Super Form, the character can still be killed by falling in a bottomless pit, being crushed, or drowning.

I feel that the same information is expressed, but shorter and more to the point.

Second
 * His dreadlocks do not raise like Super Sonic's quills, but rather float as if her were standing above a large fan.

to
 * His dreadlocks float as if he were standing above a large fan.

Corrected a spelling mistake and just made it more streamlined to read.

Third
 * his forehead stripe becomes shorter in length, most noticeably in Sonic Adventure 2 (whether this is intended or not is unknown).

Removed I felt it was unnecessary as it's obviously a small difference involving the models used, rather than a deliberate change, the fact that it's not present in Shadow the Hedgehog or Sonic 2006 backs that up.

Forth
 * n n Sonic Adventure 2, Super Shadow appeared to be a metallic champagne color during game play. This led to an ongoing debate on what color he was as there were various descriptions of the color. However, this was caused by a graphical processing error in the Dreamcast during the battle. This was fixed for Sonic Adventure 2: Battle, and Super Shadow has appeared as a metallic lemon cream color ever since.

to
 * In Sonic Adventure 2 on the Dreamcast, Super Shadow appeared to be a metallic Silver color during game play. However when the game was re-released on the Gamecube his colour was now a lemon cream colour, this caused much debate as to what his true colour was meant to be. However in all subsequent games he has been lemon cream. Apparently Super shadow's original silver colouring was due to a graphical error in the Dreamcast. 

It was Silver in the DC version and Yellow in the gamecube version. The fact tag is because we need a source for the graphics error thing.

Fifth
 * (although occasionally they look like Shadow's due to design liberties)

Removed I have no idea what that means, his spikes go up, that makes him look kinda like Shadow, yes... but I'm not sure what it means.

Over all, I'm just saying, remember, the page isn't about winning an argument, it's about facts and ease of reading. --Zikar 00:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Understood. OK. I'm going to disagree with the first edit. Wikipedia prefers things to be more "out of Universe", that is, spoken in relevance to the real world. I feel the first version did that better by speaking more in terms of playing the game. Remember, this is now a gameplay feature article and not a character one. Therefore, I really want to stay away from "in universe" (talking as if they were real) as much as possible. I want it to be clear the the reader that this is about a video game feature.

The second edit is fine.

If you look at the original SA2, you can see that the stripe change was clearly intended. It was barely past his ears. It now appears to have been retconned away. Trivia perhaps?

The fourth one is the result of consensus, so it's fine :)

Fifth: What that is saying is that Super Sonic's quills generally look like the in Genesis games. However, sometimes the model makers think he would look better with Shadow's sty;e of quills, just like how he always has a different effect. It's almost like there's a different designer for each game and they all have their own idea. It's all about artistic merit on the part of the creators. I'm going to put that back for the whole out of universe thing.

Thanks for your support BTW. :)GrandMasterGalvatron 04:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Allow me to explain some other changes I made as well.

Other special effects include sparkles and metallic fur, as well as cracks of electricity and afterimages.

Afterimages are used in the advance series.

'' In addition to enhanced speed, Super Sonic also has enhanced strength. In Sonic the Hedgehog 3, the player could use this to break through barriers that would require Spin Dash. Super Sonic's primary attack method is that of a powerful charged dash similar to Metal Sonic's charge in Sonic CD. Super Sonic is able to dash in multiple directions and is surrounded by fire as he does so, rendering him immune to enemy attack. Super Sonic retains all of his standard abilities and is able to use "Light Attack" without needing to charge up power.''

Deleted the Sonic X information as there is another article for that. I've also brought back the gameplay details. I am now treating these as the video game characters they are :).

The DBZ paragraph was restored because it was at first, a massive sentence. I see that all over Wikipedia and it's embarrassing. There are sentences that look like paragraphs!

''As the primary Super Form of the series, Super Sonic appears in nearly every game where Sonic is a main character and seven chaos emeralds must be collected. He also appears in various spin off games as a bonus character. Super Sonic is one of the two Super Forms to appear in the Sonic X cartoon.''

Too many "also"s the way it was.

A common misconception is that this form is not'' a Super Form due to lack of a color change among other things. This is technically incorrect as the form displays all of the gameplay merits of a Super Form.''

A bit of insight as to why some fans feel that way, and why they are wrong. I want to get across the point that gameplay wise, it is a Super Form. They can keep all their storyline stuff to themselves. XD

Other changes were to make it clear that this is about video game characters. That's something that really needs to be done on ALL of the Sonic articles. They read like stories really. I've been focusing on this article because it looks like it may be the first to accomplish that goal. I'm hoping we can make it a "good article", and eventually a featured one.

Also, grammar nitpicks. I want to say this to everyone. There are TWO spaces at the end of a sentence! Not one, but TWO! Also, possessive nouns ending in "s" take an "'s" if they are singular. Example: "Knuckles's powers." If the noun is plural, then is uses an "s'". Example: "The Emeralds' power."

Other than that, I liked a lot of the changes you made. Really good stuff. Perhaps GA status isn't too far off after all.GrandMasterGalvatron 04:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, that is if random people don't stop adding random fancruft :p
 * I'm still not a fan of mentioning Metal Sonic's charge, as lets face it, one charge is very much like another.
 * And as for the Shadows quills thing, I mean, Super Sonic's spikes just go up, different games make it look different ways... I just feel it's kinda unnecessary and a little confusing... but there you go :) --Zikar 13:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Metal Sonic's charge is rather age old, most people outside the Sonic fandom won't remember it anyway. Go on and take it out.  Super Sonic uses it more anyway.
 * Also, if you don't want to mention Shadow, I suppose that part could be reworded...but then again, the quill style is really 50/50. He has the Shadow style in the advance games, adventure games, Rush, and Riders.  Actually, I noticed that in Heroes, if you pause at certain moments, it does look like Shadow's since his hair is always moving.  That's a common thing every time he appears.  Perhaps we could mention that instead?GrandMasterGalvatron 13:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I always just thought that the spikes just went up (although he DOES look like Shadow sometimes. Maybe change it to something along the lines of This can sometimes make his quills look like Shadow's or something? I just feel the way it's worded at the moment makes it seem like a deliberate effort to make him look like Shadow in some games. Oo --Zikar 13:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well...there is a degree of copy-paste in there. Especially in SA2 where Super Sonic and Super Shadow looked like twins.  If anything, as Super Sonic started that look in SA1, I would say that Shadow was deliberately made to look like the new Super Sonic.  Especially since there is a shot in Sonic X that does it as well.  In fact, I'll fetch it.
 * Perhaps I could change "like" to "similar to"? That seems to be the best option GrandMasterGalvatron 14:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Umm... I just played the Finalhazard battle on SA2:B and, although it isn't as noticeable as it was on the Dreamcast, Shad still looks a lil silver/platinum. He does, however, looks closer to the creamy-lemon color scheme that was used in SHtH in SA2:B. DeathGodDragon EDGE 00:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

super transformation lv2?
I just thought of something. if super sonic is based off super saiyan, could that mean that hyper form could actully just be something like SUPER FORM LV2. If so can it be changed to that. If I get at least 5 good comments or a good one from grandmastergalvatron. Please dont give mean remarks or i will have a go at any comments you write.Mt 1994 17:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You'll get no such thing from me. It's speculation and doesn't belong here.GrandMasterGalvatron 17:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think thats a good point. They never say its called Hyper form and since its based on DBZ it probly is a second super form. OH and also what does grandmastergalvatron.
 * 1. Stop erasing people's comments.
 * 2. Sign your comments.
 * 3. This place is for verifiable facts, not mindless fancruft. GrandMasterGalvatron 18:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Mt 1994, STOP erasing my comments and STOP adding UNTRUE SPECULATIONS to the articles. Wiki is supposed to be an accurate info site, not a mindless fanboy site. JEEZ!!! DeathGodDragon EDGE 21:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

AFTER ALL THE COMMENTS THAT YOU JERKS HAVE BEEN GIIVING ME. IVE DECIDED TO GET RID OF ALL MY 'DUMB IDEAS' THAT YOU LOT SAY I HAVE. I HOPE YOUR PLEASED YOU PIECES OF FILTHY SHIT. Mt 1994 19:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Nice try, but you're not gonna get off that easily. GrandMasterGalvatron 20:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow...calm down Mt 1994. I (at least) am sorry for flyin' off the handle at you, but you need to understand that until we have an official statement that Hyper forms are similar to Super Saiyan 2, we can't put it in the article. Yeah, but I agree that saying you needed grammar lessons was going a lil too far. Truce, Mt 1994? And Grandmastergalvatron, what does "Nice try, but you're not gonna get off that easily." mean? DeathGodDragon EDGE 23:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That was in response to him blanking the section here. GrandMasterGalvatron 00:49, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Still, I am sorry, Mt 1994. DeathGodDragon EDGE 21:56, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

list of super form games and burning silver
To give people more info on the super forms shouldnt we write a list and hyperlink of the games they appear in under the info of there Super form info? Also if Blaze and Silver come from the same time which has the sol emeralds doesnt that mean when silver turns to hi super form it could acctully be called Buring Silver? Oh and i deleted my info on super lv 2 because it didnt look like i was going to get any comments.Mt 1994 15:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * 1. It's actually stated in most sections what games they appear in.
 * 2. Silver did not use the Sol Emeralds. He indirectly used the Chaos Emeralds via Sonic.
 * 3. Filenames refer to the form as "Super Silver"

Blarg...there was another source for that but I can't find it GrandMasterGalvatron 16:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Then at least could we make a list like this

. sonic 2 . sonic 3 and knuckles . sonic the hedgehog 2006 ect ect... What do you mean by Blarg?

And shouldnt Super Mecha Sonic be in the list of super forms instead of on Metal Sonics page? Mt 1994 18:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Dammit, STOP BLANKING SECTIONS! GrandMasterGalvatron 18:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

WHAT DO YOU MEAN ABOUT BLANKING I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IVE DONE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FOR GOD SAKE!!!!!!!!!!Mt 1994 18:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This page's history shows you repeatedly deleting sections of this talk page. Don't do that!GrandMasterGalvatron 18:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. well anyway back to my other question. shouldnt super mecha sonic be in the list of super forms.
 * I've been considering that....I'll probably have to get a consensus on it.GrandMasterGalvatron 20:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

what does consensus mean. also Do you think that because super tails with the flickies only appears if in Sonic 3 and Knuckles that that could actully be his hyper form like sonic and knuckles and his form in sonic heros is his only Super form? Mt 1994 21:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll answer this one, Grandmastergalvatron. The Super Tails that appeared in S3&K is still Tails' super form. Tails can't use the Chaos Emeralds directly to transform, so when he uses the Hyper Emeralds, he has some extra abilities added in (the 4 golden Flickies). Oh, and consensus means an general agreement. (Ha! My education is finally paying off!) DeathGodDragon EDGE 21:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Blast..you just beat me there mate! XD


 * As for Super Tails, the games themselves specifically said "Super Tails"...both times. It is completely possible that the second one overwrote the first. In fact, I'd damn near say it has as the Super Emeralds seem to have been all but forgotten, yet Tails still has had super powers. Since there's no confirmation on that, it's really up to the fan to decide.


 * I'm tempted to say that Tails can't transform without Sonic but there is truly no grounds whatsoever for that statement. Super Forms have been restricted to boss fights and Tails has never had possesion of all 7 chaos Emerlads. Same with Knuckles really. You show me an instance where either one of them is in possession of the emeralds and doesn't transform (Final battles notwithstanding) while Sonic and Shadow do, then maybe you'll have something. (Example, a multiple character game like S3K where super forms are avaible for level. If Sonic and Shadow transform but Tails and Knuckles don't, then you've got something. Until then NEVER :P)GrandMasterGalvatron 21:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll write a simple equation: Sega+ Sonic the Hedgehog series= RETCON! DeathGodDragon EDGE 22:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

YEAH GO RETCON!! WAIT A SEC... HOWD U WORK THAT OUT. AND IM A BIT CONFUSED ABOUT THIS SUPER FORM NEEDING SONIC BECAUSE CANT U JUST GO AROUND IN SONIC3KNUCKLES AND JUST GET THE EMERALDS USING KNUCKLES?QUACK 62.31.120.177 23:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Wha...I still can't understand half of what you're sayin'. But it's pretty easy to understand the recton thing. Because S&K had a lock-on feature, when 3 and S&K are put together, the games act as 1 (In fact, Sonic 3 and Sonic&Knuckles were supposed to be 1 game). Anyway, lock-on caused 14 emeralds to be available from both games. And since Sonic Team didn't want 14 Chaos Emeralds, they decided just to make the Super Emeralds. More than likely, the Hyper Forms were just a treat for havin' both games. ChromeWulf ZX 19:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Citing 62.31.120.177 23:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC): JUST GET THE EMERALDS USING KNUCKLES?QUACK 62.31.120.177 23:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC) Yeah, "Quack" really has many things to do with the article :D--Perfect Shadow, Ultimate Wiki Form 18:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC) (forgot to sign)

what about perfect chaos
even if he looks different from the other super forms and using the negative power of the emeralds instead of the positive, he is still similar enough according to me .... or not, what do you think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.200.164.254 (talk) 14:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

well since He is referred to as Perfect chaos not super chaos is one point and another is he cant really be a super form since he is pure chaos.Mt 1994 21:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't super forms use the positive emerald energies? Chaos used the negative energy, that's why he was called "Perfect Chaos" not "Super Chaos". ChromeWulf ZX 19:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

So if Shadow used the negative energy, he would become Perfect Shadow :D sounds cool, but I don't think it works like this...--Perfect Shadow, Ultimate Wiki Form 18:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC) (why am I always forgetting to sign?)

Well..I suppose negative energy with a player character would create something like "Dark Super Sonic". As for being a Super form, I don't know anymore ._. For this, I'll just settle on a consensus. However, if it goes in the article, and there is disagreement, it'll be removed. ^^GrandMasterGalvatron 19:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Tails and Knuckles are not confirmed as Super anywhere in Sonic Heroes
The allegation Tails and Knuckles are in their Super forms in the last boss of Sonic Heroes is speculation. It hasn't been confirmed by Sega or Sonic Team, beyond the animation filenames, which are simply not conclusive enough.

I say they aren't conclusive enough, because they could easily have been named "ss", "st", and "sk" for simplicity's sake. Developers don't necessarily intend for people to look at the animation files.

And while this is less likely, "st" and "sk", no matter how unlikely it is, could very well stand for something different.

I personally think they do stand for "Super Tails", and "Super Knuckles". But I don't think that means that they transform into their Super forms. I think they simply did that because, or
 * It's easier.
 * Whoever put those filenames wasn't completely informed as to the nature of the characters.

We cannot act like speculation is fact. Blastero 8:30 PM, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I keep having to revert the changes. Stop. We don't know weather or not Tails and Knuckles are in their Super Form in the final boss. It is not a proven fact no matter how you look at it. It's speculation.

Blastero 8:30 PM, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

And yet you and some other IP filled the page with speculation and broke loads of other Wikipedia policy. XD

First off, this article talks about Super Transformation as a feature. Meaning, if it plays like a Super Form, it is one. This stance is chosen due to Wikipedia's policy of keeping things "Out of Universe", that is, as seen from a real world perspective. The only arguments against those two being Super are in-universe speculations which aren't allowed here.

The confirmation exists in various forms. The first and foremost one being the very nature of their gameplay. They exhibit the traditional hovering and new powers being counterbalanced by ring consumption. The rings start at 50 and go down to zero. That combination alone is all that is all the confirmation you need. But in addition, not only do we have the file names, but it is specifically stated that they are using Super Transformation.

Also, those filenames are actually fairly accurate. Nothing is named a far cry from what it is. Example, the metal skins for vs mode are named "f(character)". The "F" is for "Fake". If you run the model archives through a decompresser, the actual model itself is called "FAKE(CHARACTER)_LOCATOR" The only other discrepancy exits between Charmy and Cheese. Both of their names start with "ch", so in order not to confuse the two, Cheese's files are called "cheese" and Charmy's are called "bee".

Anywho, some other things I want to point out while I glossed over those edits. I noticed a whole lot of "some think" and "others think". Who are some? How many are there? Who are others? Are there more than some? The whole thing is called "Using weasel words" and isn't allowed here.

Also, there is now confirmation on Blaze's super form being called "Burning Blaze". If you take a look at the link there, the katakana specifically reads "Burning Blaze". It is the last of her abilities mentioned.

The rest was oddball fancruft. Now let's hope my connection doesn't screw up again.GrandMasterGalvatron 23:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm no expert on Wikipedia policy, but I'd hope that fact would come before policy. Information that simply isn't true is not encyclopedic content one way or another. The allegation that Tails and Knuckles were definately in their Super forms in the last boss of Sonic Heroes is false. They may have been in their Super forms. I don't think wanting the plot of a game to be represented correctly is being too "in universe".

We might as well say that the Invincibility Shield is a Super form too. You can reference Tails and Knuckles' forms from the final boss of Sonic Heroes on this page, and point out their similarity to a Super form, but you can't claim that they are indeed in their Super forms. I for one think my edits point out this debate, and make the situation perfectly clear.

The fact of the matter is, regardless of what's likely and what's not, nothing in this debate is for sure. All you are doing by reverting my edits is asserting that your speculation is fact, while what I'm doing is pointing out that your speculation is speculation, but not denying that you have a legit argument.

The fact is, we can't prove it. The possibility exists that the filenames are, in fact, correct. The possibility also exists that they are incorrect. The very fact that there is a possibility that Tails and Knuckles aren't in their Super forms is enough to make your allegations speculation. This is covered in Verifiability, and Reliable sources, and two-lettered filenames are not reliable sources. To quote the latter of the above policies, "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources", and I would consider this to be at least a pretty bold claim.

You can't just have shady evidence. You need concrete proof. Blastero 00:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC))


 * No. There is no legit evidence against them being in Super form.  At ALL.  The only "evidence" is fancruft which isn't allowed here.  Allow me to paraphrase (because I can't remember the exact quote) something that was said in the game:


 * "You can't use Super Transformation if you run out of rings."


 * Likewise, you can't use Super Transformation if you are not in Super Form. No, the invincibility effect is not a Super form because it doesn't not make you hover, effect your rings, or give you new powers.  You might as well say that the animation packages named "sh" and "ro" are for "Shield" and "Robot" even though they are for Shadow and Rouge.  According to your argument, Super Tails and Super Knuckles in Heroes are the exact same as regular Tails and Knuckles.  This is unbelievably false for a great number of reasons which meet the eye.


 * The standpoint of this article is that any character that uses Super Transformation becomes "Super (character)" unless stated otherwise. This is the reason that Super Shadow is "Super" Shadow and Super Silver is "Super" Silver.  There is no "Hyper" Shadow, or "Shining" Silver.  Also, it has never been publicly stated that Super Silver is called "Super Silver".  How do we know the correct term is "Super Silver"?  In game filenames say so!  Just like they did for Shadow, and just like they are for Tails and Knuckles.  The only reason Blaze is listed as "Burning Blaze" is because Sega specifically said so.


 * Though I haven't looked at recent changes, I'm going to have to revert because "may" isn't allowed here. It either is, or it isn't.  A Super Form IS any temporary form that is attained by the use of 7 chaos emeralds and 50 rings.  Perfect Chaos, Ultimate Emerl, Final Hazard, and GMel's transformations are not Super forms because they not only do not use ring energy, but are also infinite, while Super forms are not.  That is the criterion for this feature.  The new Super Tails and Super Knuckles may not match the old ones point for point, but that does not change the fact that they are still Super Forms by the very definition of the feature.  Anything else is speculation and doesn't belong here.GrandMasterGalvatron 00:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Something else I want to point out here. Your argument, which is based solely on appearance, states that the "evidence" against them being Super is the fact that they don't look like the old forms.  It also implies that Sonic does, which is false.  There are vast differences between Sonic 3 Super Sonic and the Sonic Heroes super Sonic.  It actually comes out to just about the same as with Tails and Knuckles. Also, way to overlook Sonic Adventures 1 and 2. :PGrandMasterGalvatron 00:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not arguing weather or not the last boss forms of Knuckles and Tails belong in this article or not. I'm arguing as to what form they are. I recognize that "Super" can be used to describe the entire collection of similar forms, and to describe a specific form within that collection. There are different levels of "Super" forms that aren't called "Super". What about "Hyper"? That's a level that, due to being above the "Super" form, is given a different name. Just the same, there is no concrete proof that the forms used the last boss of Sonic Heroes are the same forms that we know as "Super".

Either way, you are claiming that the "Super" forms of Tails and Knuckles from Sonic 3 and Knuckles are the same.

"No. There is no legit evidence against them being in Super form. At ALL. The only "evidence" is fancruft which isn't allowed here. Allow me to paraphrase (because I can't remember the exact quote) something that was said in the game: "

Except for the fact that there isn't any legit evidence for them being in their Super form. We're done with the filenames. I can challenge their reliability within reason. By virtue of that, they are not good enough evidence. Let's push those aside. You say that their appearance differences aren't good enough? Well, when they break a long line of convention, as far as how Super forms generally look, and there is no other evidence at all supporting these forms being the same ones from Sonic 3 and Knuckles, I'd say, yes, they are good enough.

The forms aren't achieved through the Chaos Emeralds, as other Super forms are, either. Sonic achieved his Super form through the Chaos Emeralds. Now, he can do what he wants with the power he now possesses. He can blow something up, or he can surround Tails and Knuckles with nondescript glowing spheres.

What my edits are doing are distinguishing "Super" Knuckles and Tails, from their nondescript "Super" forms in Sonic Heroes.

Blastero 01:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC))
 * No evidence for? What about the fact that they play the exact same as a super form, have all of the same animations, and have not been stated as otherwise.  By that fact alone, there is no choice but to call them "Super" until Sega says otherwise.  Just like Burning Blaze was originally called "Super Blaze" by fans, until they learned the truth.  That doesn't change the fact that Burning Blaze is still a Super form.  Likewise, the fact they they don't look the part doesn't change the fact that they are.  I'm going to tell you just how shallow your argument is.  If Knuckles had a metallic texture in that fight, but other than that was no different from regular Knuckles, you'd all call it Super Knuckles, even though it would be just Knuckles with a texture.


 * Anyway, I have no choice but to revert your edits because you are breaking many a rule with them. The entire thing is composed of "Some fans say" and other such statements which are weasel words and are not allowed here.  Also, "what the fans say" doesn't belong here either as frankly, no one cares.  Again, this article is about Super Transformation as a feature.  If you are using Super Transformation nowadays, you are in Super Form.  Unless until Sega says otherwise, your name is "Super (Character)".  Also, visit Silver's talk page if you think the power was Sonic's.GrandMasterGalvatron 02:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I need to use the word "fans" at least a few times to clarify where this argument is coming from. What about the abundance of Wikipedia articles that have seperate sections for "Reception"? Does no one care about what the fans think there?

"they play the exact same as a super form, have all of the same animations, and have not been stated as otherwise"

How do they play exactly the same, when the gameplay mechanics of both games are vastly different? And having the similar powers does not make them the same form.

And how do they have "all the same animations"? You're comparing 2D sprites from a very old game with 3D models from a relatively recent game, and claiming they have the same animations?

"By that fact alone, there is no choice but to call them "Super" until Sega says otherwise."

No. It's anyone's guess what they're called if they aren't given official names. People generally just choose "Super" right away, because it's the traditional name for the form. It doesn't make "Super" right either way. It's still a guess. Guesses are not encyclopedic content. So they changed the appearances from Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Maybe they changed the names too. We don't know. All I know is, the two forms at the end of Sonic Heroes are never referred to as anything at all. Not "Super", nor anything else. All we know is that these are nondescript powered-up forms.

When you take a picture of Knuckles from the last boss in Sonic Heroes, and label it as "Super Knuckles", and put it under the "Super Knuckles" article, you are stating something that hasn't been confirmed or verified. Verifiability says you need to verify with a reputable and appropriate source before saying something such as that. Reliable Sources does a good job of defining a reputable source. It also says that "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources", and claiming that two forms that haven't appeared in about 10 years in a completely unlikely and unapparent circumstance without any official or concrete confirmation, requires more than the ambiguous evidence you've supplied.

To put it simply, what you've supplied isn't confirmation. It's evidence supporting your cause. Confirmation means a reputable source explicitly stating that in the final boss fight in Sonic Heroes, Tails and Knuckles are, in fact, in the same Super forms that they appeared as in Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

Until you get that, the labeling of Tails and Knuckles as they appear in the last boss fight of Sonic Heroes as specifically "Super" is not appropriate for an encyclopedia.

So you can do one of three things. You can choose to leave my changes intact and/or correct any "weasel words" you feel fit to, you can make a totally seperate section on this article for the nondescript forms, or you can erase them from this article all together, and put them somewhere else.

(Blastero 03:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC))


 * Debates within the fanbase aren't allowed here. They only amount to speculation.  You can't post that section here without massive rewording, and loads of citations.  Who are "some fans"?  How many are there?  See what I'm getting at?
 * They play the same because in that game, Super Sonic plays no different.. I'm not comparing the forms to S3K.  I'm comparing them to all post SA Super forms.  That is where the similarities lie.  They hover and such just like Super Sonic in the Adventure games, and all after.
 * sigh*. What we know is that they are Super Forms.  It has not been spelled out what they are called, but we know it begins with an "s".  Sonic had this same tag and was called "Super Sonic".  Since most of you need things spoon-fed to you, you must have it spelled out by Sega that it's what it is.
 * When you take a picture of Knuckles's transformation from the last boss in Sonic Heroes, and label it as "Knuckles", and put it under the "Knuckles" article, you are stating something that hasn't been confirmed or verified. Verifiability says you need to verify with a reputable and appropriate source before saying something such as that. Reliable Sources does a good job of defining a reputable source. It also says that "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources", and claiming that a form that has all of the characteristics of a Super form is the same form as the normal cahracter without any official or concrete confirmation, requires more than the ambiguous evidence you've supplied.


 * Guess what? You don't have any confirmation either!  That means we've hit a dead end.  You want official confirmation that it is Super Knuckles, and I want official confirmation that it isn't!  That's right, not only do I want Sega to spell it out for me that the form isn't called "Super Knuckles", but I want them to say why they chose that name, why they didn't use the name 'Super Knuckles", and why it looks the way it does!  That's right, your so called "facts" aren't crystal clear to me at all, and therefore, in accordance with wikipedia policy, must have reliable citation to prove your point.


 * Now, even though I LOVE debating on this subject, it's time to reach a consensus. I propose that we refer to is as a Super form and show why.  However, we will not give it a name other than "S (character)", and show why for that as well.  In both cases, the fanbase will not be mentioned at all, nor will any weasel words be used.

how's that? :)GrandMasterGalvatron 03:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You are overlooking one specifict fact. My argument is not that it's the same as regular Knuckles, nor is it that he does not go Super, even if that is my opinion.

My argument is that there is no confirmation one way or another, and that we should make a note of both the ambiguity of the character form, and the debate among fans. "Fans" are not unacceptable. They clarify "who". I can't get any more specific than that, unless I start naming names. '''My changes neither push my opinion, nor do they step on yours. They employ a neutral opinion, which I always though was better for an encyclopedia.''' Neither your opinion, nor mine can be considered "fact". But what can be considered "fact" is the fact that the status of the characters is obscure. The filenames are not extraordinary sources. Yuji Naka himself probably didn't personally write the filenames with the intention of revealing the forms of the characters. I don't know what's so hard to understand. The filenames are inconclusive, as there are other reasonable explanations as to why they are named that. Even if you have a 70% chance of being right, and I have a 30%, until you get 100%, you are still in the realm of speculation.

And if you are taking our argument on Sonic Stadium as being the same as this, you're wrong. I'm arguing my personal opinion on the matter there, and here I'm arguing what is most encyclopedic.

(Blastero 05:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC))

No. I cannot allow you to make those edits. You are using Weasel Words which are not alllowed here. What the "fans" say, has no place on Wikipedia without citation from a proper source. This excludes forums of any sort. Did you even look at the edits I made before you reverted? The clearly lay out the issue in a NPOV way without mentioning the fans AT ALL. I also don't know what's so hard to understand. Now read these words, and concetrate on them carefully. '''The page as it is now lists the form as a Super Form. However, it does not give a name.''' You entire edits are nothing but speculation and weasel words, which isn't allowed. Also, another point I want to make clear. This page is about anything and everything about Super Transformation. Meaning, if it uses Super Transformation, it is a Super Form. Period. Names are up for grabs but that fact remains. Now before you revert agian, why don't you LOOK AT THE DAMN PAGE FIRST.

And while you're at it, quit screwing up Shadow, Blaze, and Silver's sections!216.64.16.199 13:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. I skimmed your changes, but I guess I didn't read very closely. My bad.

That said, I think if this is how we're going to do it, by referring to these as seperate "forms", we need a seperate entry for them. The "Super" section is for "Super" forms alone. This is why we have a seperate section for "Hyper".

I also think we need to refrain from using any implied names for the forms. "S Knuckles" is not the name of the form one way or another.

(Blastero 22:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC))

That is not necessary. They are not being referred to as separate forms, but as nameless Super Forms. By your logic, Burning Blaze would also have to be moved, and Super Silver's name would have to be stripped as well. There has been no official confirmation of that name. All we have is filenames just like Tails and Knuckles. Yes, I'm going to demand official confirmation for "Super Silver" because, per your logic, filenames are not good enough. Yes, I'm going to demand that Sega spells out "Super Silver". If your logic holds true, and the last three transformations have defied the "Super" name tag, I'm going to have a hard time believing that it's "Super Silver". It could be "Hyper Silver", "Shining Sliver", "Burning Silver", "Omega Silver" or some other odd tag.

I hope you see the point i'm trying to make :PGrandMasterGalvatron 22:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not a matter of just the names. Sure, they are transformations that seem to resemble "Super" transformations in general, and for that reason, they belong in the "Super Transformations" article, but they are obviously different from other Super forms, and therfore, we can't be sure weather or not they are technically "Super" Super forms, or any other transformation.

(Blastero 00:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC))

I'm going to have to say that is incorrect. For this article, all that matters is that the gameplay treats it as a super form. Does it exhibit all of the play aspects of a Super form? Yes. Does it exhibit any aspects of a Hyper form? No. Therefore, the only option is to label them as Super Forms, after all, that's what Sega did. Did they spell out names for you? No. Did they say all three were using Super transformation? YES. Cream said it, and not only to Sonic. She said "Everyone". Super Sonic doesn't do anything that they don't. There is no such thing as a "Super" Super form. There is simply one single state of Super form. The only caveat is that the names vary. Also, by your logic, not only do Tails, Knuckles, and Silver (and by extension Metal) have to be in their own category, but Blaze has to be in her own as well.

This whole idea defeats the entire purpose of this article! That purpose, is to document the gameplay feature that is "Super Transformation", what it does, and who uses it. It was never explicitly stated that Super Transformation requires an appearance change EVER. Implied things don't cut it here. That is one of the reasons why this article didn't pass peer review. (look at that section before you edit btw), the other reason was the usage of the words "speculation" and "theory" in their various forms. At the time I submitted it, someone made changes behind my back very similar to the ones you made. This is the main reason I keep reverting you. Your changes, in addition to the changes of anyone holding your same opinion (overtime, I've seen that they are generally all the same) are a major factor that prevents this article from attaining GA status.

Yes, if you check the history, this article was originally the Super Sonic article. However, Super Sonic does not deserve his own article, so all playable Super forms were placed here. (though I may reconsider that in the case of Metal). From the very beginning, my goal was to have this article become a featured article. This one seems to be one of the easier ones to work with in that regard. (I'm getting to the point BTW :P) Actually, before you came here, I was in the process of making sources for EVERYTHING. This is still my plan. Here's where your edits come in. There have been 7 super forms. Your logic dictates that there were nine. Only five of them have had their names specifically spelled out. Those would be: Super Sonic, Super Tails (old), Super Knuckles (old), Super Shadow, and Burning Blaze (this is on Sonic Channel). These can all be verified by means of site links for Sonic and Blaze, and screenshots for the other three (Super Shadow's name is on a Rivals card). If in-game file names can't be used here, Super Knuckles (new), Super Tails (new), Super Metal, and Super Silver's names have no official confirmation and are thus speculation. Therefore, as per your reasoning, all four of them HAVE to be in a separate section and labeled as "unclassified" because the "possibility", even though it's really really small, exists that they are not Super forms (which in turn implies that they are weaker, which is what I dislike the most about your argument). Also, Burning Blaze has not been spelled out as a Super form. This mandates that she also be in her own category.

At this rate, we now have the following: "Super" forms, Super Sonic, Super Tails(old), Super Knuckles(old), Super Shadow. "Hyper" forms: Hyper Sonic, Hyper Knuckles "Unclassified" forms: Tails(new), Knuckles(new), Silver, Metal "Other": Burning Blaze

This exists simply because you nitpick over something so minor as appearance even though the same basic qualities exist with all of the transformations, and special effects exist between the Hyper forms. Now that I think of it, there are some major holes in your logic. According to you, a Super Form must directly use the Chaos Emeralds to transform (as Sonic can't share the power). That in itself discounts every other form except those in the first row there, and it also puts Metal in his own category as he used the Master Emerald.

This is everything your argument implies, and therefore, if you are right, I WILL hold you to it. My goal is still to have this article reach FA status, whatever it takes. Because the "possibility", now matter how slight, exists that everything is not as it seems, I am going to demand specific citation for not only every Super, Hyper, and any other form name, but I am also going to demand a specific citation that states that Super Forms must have some radical appearance change. I am also going to demand specific citation that those two forms that started this, Blaze, Silver and Metal are inferior/superior/equal to a Super Form; as such is NEEDED for FA status. I consider the first two to be EXTREMELY exceptional claims, and therefore require extremely exceptional sources. Why does this have to be? Because everything must be crystal clear here. There must be no grey areas. It either is, or isn't, and if it's debatable in any way shape or form, no matter how minor, it MUST BE CITED!GrandMasterGalvatron 03:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow... do you need some assistance Grandmastergalvatron? DeathGodDragon EDGE 21:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

1. From a plot point of view, it's unclear if this is the same form as the original Super Knuckles, the section you have it under. This article is not completely free of plot-related points, such as Sonic's donating of energy to Tails and Knuckles in Sonic Heroes, a fact with no real gameplay related meaning.

2. From a gameplay standpoint, it's also unclear. All you ever get to play as this form is during a flying stage, where certain aspects of the form aren't clear. As you yourself have even stated, Super Knuckles has never been seen flying on his own, and if this form truley is Knuckles' own, (as opposed to just Knuckles using Sonic's power throughout the entire fight) there's one difference, from a gameplay and plot standpoint that puts this form apart from the original Super Knuckles.

To really see how this form compares to other "Super" forms, you need a ground level. You need to set some kind of standard.

To clarify my position on the terminology, I'll give you an outline:

Super Transformations

1. We have the "Super" form, in its more specific technical sense. The word "Super" can be replaced by other adjectives without altering the identity of the form.

2. We have the "Hyper" form, which is more powerful than the "Super" form. Although it's not clear weather or not this has been done before, the word "Hyper" is not necessary in order for it to be considered a "Hyper" form, in a technical sense.

3. We have other forms, forms that, while still having the right characteristics to be considered a "Super" form in a general sense, exactly what level of Super form it is is unclear, due to gameplay or visual aspects that differ from the basic aspects of other Super forms.

I never said that the name on its own meant anything. However, the name can imply a form. When you call Knuckles "Super" Knuckles, you are implying two things:


 * That Knuckles is in his "Super" form, in the specific sense.


 * That Knuckles is in the same form as he was in Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

To make things easier, you might as well just refer to "Super" as level one, and "Hyper" as level two. This will take away the complication of having to apply up to two names to one form for specific characters.

Because the forms differ in gameplay and story aspects, you cannot say for sure that they are "Super", or "Level one".

I'm not here to argue about Blaze or Silver yet. I'll argue those after I'm done with this.

(Blastero 03:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC))

Interesting. I gave this some real thought, and I feel there has been an error on my end throughout this whole ordeal. I have not made it clear before, and need to do so now. As I play the games, and work with the files within, one thing has become very clear: This form is intended to replace the original "Super Knuckles". By having Tails and Knuckles transform into these forms, the originals have been retconned out of existence. The "Super Tails" of old is especially gone forever as the Super Emeralds will never return (a plot that big would have showed up by now). I'm sure anyone and everyone who has been following the games would agree that with this form in play, the original "Super" Knuckles and Tails will never return. All future instances of transformation on the part of those two will call for these forms, regardless of how they are obtained. By naming the files "Super" in the first place is Sega's way of cementing this. They're not gonna have one acronym stand for two different things, other filenames in Heroes show that (like the case with Charmy and Cheese).

When I said that this "Super Knuckles" is the same as the old one, I meant that by the very definition of the term. The term "Super" is not a name, but a description, much like "Hyper", and "Burning". This is why all Super forms are named "Super (character)". By Blaze transforming into "Burning" Blaze, that implies that the form is not a "super form" from plot stance, but its own form altogether. I now see that there is a glaring error in this article, which is, not enough distinction between out of universe, and in universe (what little of it there is). That's why I rewrote Super Sonic's article in the first place and left it here! XD I knew there was something I missed. Each form in itself is properly called a "Super Transformation" itself from an OOU standpoint. "Super Transformation" is also the name of the feature which, given the context the term was used, is a move or power up in itself. (read: every transformation is a "powered up" character).

Also, "Sonic's power" should not enable a character to fly. It should only make a character stronger, furthermore, that character shouldn't become stronger than Sonic himself, which Knuckles obviously does in that battle. The power is not "Sonic's" but the Chaos Emeralds' power. Notice how it spilled out the instant Sonic transformed. It's pretty clear that Sonic took his share and let the energy itself take care of the rest. (Not only did he go straight up into the air, but he was also quite far from them as well) Again, this is all pretty well spelled out in the Silver debate on his page.

Anywho, outline time:

1. The "Super Transformation" is the feature(form) itself, which is simply a character power up. This applies to all transformations as they all do the same things.

2. "Super" applies to any first level transformation using enabled by positive energy of the Chaos Emeralds in whatever state they're in (this covers the Super Emeralds which are powered up Chaos Emeralds). God knows what the negative will turn you into. XD

3. "Hyper" applies to any enhanced "Super" form enabled by the Super Emeralds. Sonic and Knuckles could already become "Super" which is why they became "Hyper".

4. "Burning" applies to any first level transformation enabled by the positive energy of the Sol Emeralds.

5. The name is a description of the transformation. Therefore, calling Burning Blaze a "Super form" is incorrect. If it were a super form, it'd be called one.

6. The new "Super Tails" and "Super Knuckles" have replaced the originals via retconning. This was made perfectly clear by Sonic '06. Sonic's blanketing Shadow and Silver with "his own" energy should have made them look like the new Super Tails and Knuckles. However, the energy isn't "his own" and therefore it didn't happen. (I always said in the earlier debates that if Shadow was where Knuckles was, he'd have looked no different from SA2 (save for the color glitch)) Either way, it's clear that those old appearances are locked in the past.

7. By calling the transformation "Super" (character) this implies that the transformation was made by the Chaos Emerald energy. In the case of Knuckles and Tails, it needs to be made clear that these new transformations have overwritten the first ones. In the case of Silver, it is the only way you can call him "Super Silver" without citation (because there currently is none..aside from filenames, which apparently we aren't supposed to know :P)

As for the article, it needs to be freed of all plot related things. The player activated those forms by collecting the Chaos Emeralds. That's pretty cut and dry. How you collect the Chaos Emeralds needs no more detail than playing the story or the special stages. Right from the get go, the intention of this article was to stick strictly to the gameplay aspects. (Which is why that form was tagged "Super" in the first place). It also needs to be made clear that the transformations are not characters themselves, but the equivalent of hitting an item box with that power ("S" box anyone?)...shoot! I forgot to put that in there! That's something that definitely needs to be added! Therefore, the name "Super/Hyper/Burning (character)" should only be used once. All other name uses should be devoid of the tag, and sentences should be worked out as "(character) gains/can now use (ability)".

This is the true purpose and meaning behind the article. It would actually do well to rename the sections from the "super" names to the characters' real names (IE: Sonic the Hedgehog). That I will do right away!

Heh. I knew I'd botch up the execution! That's the exact reason I publicly uploaded the article's draft.GrandMasterGalvatron 17:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay. While I still disagree that the original Super Tails and Super Knuckles from Sonic 3 and Knuckles have been retconned out of existence, that itself is not an issue in the article, and I think we've come to a good compromise.

Good job with the article!

(Blastero 20:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC))

Before I patch the article up into neatness, are we in agreement with the name issue? Also, should "Super Metal" from S3K go into it's own section in this article. As it isn't clear what the tag from direct usage of the Master Emerald would be, it will go in as nameless. It would go in as a Super transformation used by the CPU. GrandMasterGalvatron 20:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't completely disagree, or agree, but I think both of are points of views are represented in the article, (Which has been edited back, by the way.) and I am happy with the way you edited it.

(Blastero 02:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC))

The article has been cleaned up, and this debate is finally resolved! Now let's get those sources!GrandMasterGalvatron 19:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Super Sonic/Hyper Sonic Super Knuckles/Hyper Knuckles
to not take up as much space should we put the above title instead of two seperate sections for that persons super forms. Also i just actully thourght of something. If use that device that alows u to play as people like knuckles and mighty the armadillo on games like sonic 1&2 can they get super forms in those games as well? PS: i did not change the artical so it was like ive suggested. PPS: IM NOT MT 1994 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.31.120.177 (talk) 11:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

Someone keeps messing with the article. There is supposed to be one section for each character that documents ALL of their transformations. I will personally deal with that user and if they refuse to stop, I'll have the page protected.GrandMasterGalvatron 21:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Troublesome IP
Ok... can we block this IP: "24.187.99.83". It keeps on vandalizing the page. I've asked it to stop but it refuses.GrandMasterGalvatron 04:31, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Crappy pics...<_<
The 2-D pics are sorta annoying, because they didn't have good enough graphics back then to give you a good image of their Super and Hyper forms. Mainly, Tails and Knuckles. And Sonic Heroes doesn't show it full transformed, also, if it does, then those pictures are OFF time. I was just wondering if we should hunt down better pictures. I think it would help the article, although, personally, I don't like this article, but I'm going to state me opinion anyways. :P - Owner of TAils Doll's Grave, Anniku.
 * In the case of the 2d games, that's all there is. All you can really do in scale them, but even then, that throws things off by making them look all pixellated.  You're welcome to do so if you think it's unnecessary.  Also, Tails's and Knuckles's transformations are generally overwhelmingly unimpressive compared to Sonic's.  Of course, no character has anywhere near as impressive a transformation as Sonic (favoritism on the creators' part really) but those two don't even try. XD (but at least they got something..unlike Emerl)  As for Heroes, only think different from the pics here and how they look during gameplay is that Knuckles's hair is floating and Tails's tails are always spinning.  Seriously.  Knuckles was made that way for technical reasons.  Tails is universally screwed across all media.  His Super forms have amounted to: Tails with birds, Tails with a shield, Tails with a cape. (Let's not talk about Titan Tails m'kay?)

So um yeah...that's just how it is really. If the 2d pics really bother you, I will scale them. (as they are at actual size :) ) As for the Heroes ones, I DO have the actual CG scenes on hand, HOWEVER the true resolution is SMALLER than the pics we have. Also, the quality is barley better so unless you have a capture card, it best left as is.  As for Blaze...if you can get a higher quality pic, by all means do it!GrandMasterGalvatron 08:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we can get a screenshot of Hyper Sonic's ending, similar to the one of Super Tails? 83.255.67.167 10:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Where the h--- is a pic of Shad from Sth 06?! I've been askin' for it for weeks! ChromeWulf ZX 20:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * There isn't one. The only pic I have with just him is a semi transformed one.  It doesn't matter anyway as he looks exactly like he does in ShtH.GrandMasterGalvatron 22:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Super Tails
I don't like the section about Super Tails/Knuckles. No where in Sonic Heroes does it say that the two wrapped in the gold bubbles are Super forms of them. I just took it as them being surrounded by Super Sonic's invulnerability. Where does it say that they are actual Super Forms? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.17.250.77 (talk) 15:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC).
 * In a nutshell:

Cream specifically warns them about their power flagging. She says that can't use Super Transformation without rings. In addition, the power is not Sonic's but the Chaos Emeralds'. All first level transformations via Chaos Emerald Energy are labeled "Super", regardless of appearance. This is why there is no "Hyper" Shadow, or "Shining" Silver. It's also why Blaze's transformation is called "Burning" and therefore not a "Super" form. Re-read the section carefully, and take note of the last sentence. GrandMasterGalvatron 18:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Alright, who the hell took out Tails, Knuckles and Silver's sections?
I mean, they where PERFECT. Who did that? They screwed up the article.

Eriorguez.

Believe it or not, of all the people in the world, it was I. Until a consensus could be finally reached, I noted out all three of them to stop the edit warring. Little did I know that there was still more edit warring after I left XD (humans love fighting). I actually took this case to the help desk, and the result seems to be a slight bending of the rules. Because this debate has created edit wars for years, it was deemed necessary that the debate itself be placed into the article, even though it may possibly involve weasel words and speculation. Also, it was deemed that all characters involved should not be named, as there isn't a hard citation for any of them. This in turn applies to Silver by default and fairness. It's been fixed now and "Mecha" Sonic has been added. GrandMasterGalvatron 07:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Citations, Citations, Citations
Ok...am I like...the only one who wants this article to make FA status? Dammit people why is no one looking for sources? The peer review dudes said there needed to be more sources! We still don't have a source for that processing error, that "Hyper Shadow" thing, or that Super Sonic camera glitch. SOURCES PEOPLE, SOURCES! XDGrandMasterGalvatron 07:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Are sprite sheets acceptable, or are they counted as too easy to fake? Because these two  would otherwise be good for the Hyper Sonic and Super Tails name references. 81.172.223.197 15:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say no because anyone can make something on there and say it's real. Someone once tried to use a sprite sheet as evidence that Super Knuckles was pink and I, in turn pulled up a sheet of Super Sonic in his lightest flash color and said he was white. XD  The sheet had fake sprites anyways (Knuckles doing Kai Blasts?  yeah right).  What might work for those names is a screenshot of when the emeralds are obtained, or use of a cite game tag referring to that specific moment.GrandMasterGalvatron 22:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay. I'll try to find some screenshots for now. If none are found, I guess one of those tags could be used. 81.172.223.197 01:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * There was a message saying "You can now play as Super Knuckles" in Sonic & Knuckles and all Lock-on versions that appeared wwwhen you collected all Chaos Emeralds with Knuckles. The same aplies to Super Tails and Super Emeralds. I'll seek for pics. -User:Eriorguez.

Mecha Sonic
All right, the Mecha Sonic part has gotta go! This article is only about player controlled Super Transformation. The problems with putting Mecha in are these: 1. Mecha isn't controlled by the player (unless by debugging or some glicth he is playable) 2. "Super" Mecha Sonic is only a quasi-Super form

Please take Mecha out. ChromeWulf ZX 18:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually...no it isn't, and I gave this some serious thought. The article is abut Super Transformation as a gameplay feature.  Truthfully, all that matters is when it's used and if it's by the CPU then so be it. XD
 * Also, what the hell's a "quasi-Super form"? and do you have a source for that?
 * Also, before anyone asks, Perfect Chaos, Final Hazard, and Metal Overlord don't fit the description here. Perfect Chaos was a unique case in his own right in that he transformed with just one emerald, and he used the negative energy...something the other transformations don't do....actually..he might be up for debate..I'd love to hear it.

Final Hazard is a definite no because he just Chaos Controlled himself to the ARK, and was already invincible from the start. Metal Overlord didn't use any emeralds at all so he's definitely out. Emerl and GMel might be in the same league as Chaos, but then again, the term "Super Transformation" is vague in itself.

Actually..yeah..let's have a go at this.GrandMasterGalvatron 22:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok...you do have a point. I have no clue what the hell I meant when I said quasi-super form. Maybe it's cause he used the Master Emerald, instead of the Chaos/Sol Emeralds. That part was probably just bull. Anyway, Chaos used he negative enegy from all 7 Chaos Emeralds. As far as I know, everyone used who used 'em to transform used the positive energy. Therefore, Chaos was "Perfect" Chaos not "Super" Chaos. I say that both Mecha and Chaos are the only non-playable characters with Super forms (Chaos is debatable, though). If you put Mecha in then: 1. Chaos should go in as well and 2. the article needs to be edited to show that it is about all true Super forms (Devil Doom, Solaris, Metal Overlord, and The FinalHazard don't count). And I'm not here for a fight with you GMG, either. ChromeWulf ZX 22:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * XDD I'm that trigger happy eh? Ah well.  Now Chaos, that's an odd one...I actually wouldn't put him in because he isn't "invincible"/super fast etc.  That's how Mecha got in.  However, if enough people agree, I'll put him in there ^^GrandMasterGalvatron 03:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow. If only all flame wars would end this fast. ChromeWulf ZX 20:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Proof of Super Tails and Super/Hyper Knuckles.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/Artichao/Super_Tails.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/Artichao/Super_Knuckles.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/Artichao/Hyper_Knuckles.gif

Thanks to Tails Ohki from GameFAQs. No reason to the citation things now. Silver, BTW, is very likely to be Super Silver, due to tons of things in common with Sonic and Shadow and the continuous references to "Super forms". User:Eriorguez
 * I actually know it's "Super Silver" but have to ask for a source for sheer policy reasons. There are some who think that it might be something else, and the place I got the data from cannot be cited. :/GrandMasterGalvatron 03:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait a sec...we need Hyper Sonic too! XDGrandMasterGalvatron 04:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, we'll have to wait 'till the PC version is released and then the textures will tell it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eriorguez (talk • contribs) 04:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Yeah..unless we get another lame "ssv" type file...then we'll be right where we started XDDGrandMasterGalvatron 05:24, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh, that's what we'll get, being Sonic Team the way they are. Today was discovered that Super Sonic and Super Shadow were intended to be in the multiplayer mode of Sonic Adventure 2 Battle...

-User:Eriorguez
 * I saw that! I'd say that's worthy of being in this article..I mean.it even has a character description for Super Sonic.  At this tare...tehre might as well be another section for times that Super forms were almost used in level.  As far as we know, this is the third.

Any supporters? Opposers?GrandMasterGalvatron 07:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I dunno about this Super Silver or Super characters in SA2B discussions, but I've got a Hyper Sonic screenie. Too bad there are some numbers in the corner and that the Emeralds were in the gray pallette the second it was taken, but... is it acceptable? 83.255.67.167 15:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, it's not animated like the other ones. If someone makes an animation, it would probably fit in better with the other pictures. 83.255.67.167 15:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/Artichao/Hyper_Sonic.gif

Again, thanks to Tails Ohki. Yeah, I support that idea. Eriorguez

I support the idea as well. ChromeWulf ZX 20:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I knew those gifs would come in handy! =P - "Tails Ohki" from GameFAQs 67.173.62.22 03:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

All those "Citation needed"...
C'mon, most of them are explained in the gameplay! There is no need to them. Heck, and then we get the Zoo Tycoon 2 article being vandaliced now and then...
 * But guess what..professional articles have loads of citations. This one aims to be no different :P.  After all, the peer review dudes said we needed more citations, so I'm tagging anything that can be possibly doubted.GrandMasterGalvatron 05:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Silver citation
Well...I was going to explain how we might not be able to use the decompile info as a source... but you know what...we still can't. Just for the simple fact that, like earlier, someone might actually see the filenames as irrelevant in this situation as well and demand a better source. Plus, last I checked, they were from the demo anyway so there might have been a change. Yes, I know it's unlikely, but they very fact that it's possible means we'll have to wait for something better. after all, the fans assumed Blaze had a "Super" tag but ended up being wrong on that. The point simply stands that we'll need a more reliable source.GrandMasterGalvatron 17:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Y'know, some things are logical things. Look at ALL Wiki articles but this one. It is enough proof filename wise. Super Silver, end of story. Blaze is different due to the usage of Sol Emeralds. And, thus far, Transformations with Chaos Emeralds give a Super form. Silver is super. If that isn't credible that way, time to delete the God article. Eriorguez


 * I actually have to differ. :/ The goal of the article remains the same.  We actually had this same situation if you scroll up a bit.  The filenames weren't a valid citation then, and they aren't a valid citation now, and they were Chaos Emerald transformations as well.  The file doesn't need deletion, it just needs time.  Nothing's being hurt by making it ambiguous for now.  I actually went to the help desk again, and there's actually some things that need to be taken away from the article (the way it's looking, the whole "trivia") section might go.  In order to make sure, I'm going send the article up for peer review again.  We'll see what needs to be done afterwards. ^^GrandMasterGalvatron 02:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Super Sonic the Glitchy
The article says:

Sometimes the screen will lag behind so much that Sonic occasionally dies for no apparent reason after the camera is forced to play catch-up. While coming into the Dr. Robotnik boss area at the end of the "Hydrocity Zone" in Sonic 3, Sonic can fly at full speed, bypassing Dr. Robotnik himself. This results in a number of glitches.

I'm about to remove both of these statements unless somebody pulls up some cold hard facts. I have seen the camera lag while in Super mode. I have never died because of it. How often does the camera lag kill the player? Is it as widespread as the infamous CNZ Barrel?

Also, I'm calling BS on that Hydrocity statement. There's a short space to travel before that boss and Super Sonic's acceleration isn't that good. Anyone wanna try to back these up?GrandMasterGalvatron 22:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I've been in Hydrocity with Hyper Sonic and I saw no glitches. ChromeWulf ZX 22:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think s3k counts because a lot of things were ironed out ;) Though I did have a funky palette glitch in Sonic 3, but I don't think it's notable.

GrandMasterGalvatron 22:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

True, but I also did the same thing with Super Sonic in 3 and nothing of the sort happened there either. ChromeWulf ZX 03:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Alright then. Anyone opposed to removing the statement?GrandMasterGalvatron 23:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't even think it's POSSIBLE to get to full speed, since you are slowed down by the water. Anyway, no objections here. Gurko 13:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, once I was speeding through Hydrocity as Hyper Sonic, then I entered the slot machine Bonus Stage, and when I came out, I had debug powers. o.o Jon166 06:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Burning Blaze
Okay, I admit I should have discussed before adding that, and I'm not going to add it again, but I would still like a    reply with some clear evidence. Or if any of you read Japanese, you could maybe post all of the text, instead of just the quote "Burning Blaze." Sorry. >.< Anyway, why did you remove this: "Similarly, Blaze is the first character with full clothing cover to go Super, just as she is the first female." That was explaining why she was the first to have her clothing change color. I mean, her shoes and gloves didn't change color, just as with the others. Jon166 00:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The "Burning Blaze" is listed under the "special skills" tab. IIRC it said "Able to manipulate fire. By collecting the 7 sol emeralds, can transform into Burning Blaze"

As for the clothing comment, the page says that she's the first character who's clothes change color. I suppose more detail could be put in as to why she does, and why Shadow and Knuckles don't (it's a palette issue).

For those who are wondering, I'll explain. All official characters have a limited set of colors they can use. This is because in 2d games, there is a 15 color limit on the character sprites (it's actually 16 bu the 16th is always transparent). The super forms envoke a rotating palette which recolors the character on the spot. For example, all blue on Sonic turns yellow.

With this said, why doesn't Shadow's gear and Knuckles's shoes change color? It's because Knuckles originally had five shades of red in his palette. Two were for his shoes and three were for his fur. Super transformation only effected the fur shades. it's the same with Super Shadow. The black in his gear is not the same black as his fur (unless he's not going Super in that game). It's generally a dark grey instead of black.

It is this rule that explains why Blaze's clothes change colors. There are too many colors in use for it to not happen. If the jacket stayed purple, so would her quill tips..and that would look odd. The jacket rim didn't have to change, but it just looks better.

Why is it noteworthy? In the advance games, Knuckles's sprite palette only has three shades of red. Also, the Heroes model uses the same red all around. Using the plain old recolor principle, it's impossible for Knuckles fur to glow and for his shoes not to glow. This is why Knuckles now just has an exterior aura when he's super. Also, it's why Shadow's model in Shadow the Hedgehog is altered from his Heroes one. He had to have his fur and gear separated or they'd turn yellow when he went super. Blaze on the other hand said the hell with it and just took the clothing change. XD

If you want to add that on the page (albeit shortened) then go for it. :)GrandMasterGalvatron 23:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't have to ask you twice for a good explination. o.o; Thanks, I'll just refer to this page when I need to tell somebody the exact information, but adding it to the main article would seem a bit rambling...  It's up to you. Jon166 04:19, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Article title?
The title 'Super transformation' is, while better than listing the whole thing under 'Super Sonic,' a tad unsuitable, and the same goes for the 'Super transformation (other media)' article. The term could refer to any fictional transformation in any series. It would probably be more sensible to entitle this page, "Super transformations in Sonic the Hedgehog."

That's my opinion anyway. Super Shaz 14:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * A noble suggestion indeed. However, I haven't seen any other series refer to it's power ups as "super transformation".  If the time comes that another series explicitly uses the term, then this will become a disambiguation page, and all applying articles will be pointed to from there on.

In short, it's not explicitly necessary now so no need to bother with it. It's only a minute's work anyway XDGrandMasterGalvatron 22:30, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Mecha Sonic & Other Enemies
I know: "Not this again!" I just thought I'd question, why does Mecha Sonic (using Master Emerald) have a section, while Perfect Chaos (using Chaos Emeralds) has none? Additionally, Finalhazard (using Chaos Emeralds) and Devil Doom (using Chaos Emeralds) also don't. And as long as we can make sections for characters who use objects other than the Chaos Emeralds, why not Metal Overlord or Solaris?

I have three suggestions:


 * Give me a clear explaination why it is as it is.


 * Delete Mecha Sonic.


 * Make an enemy Super Transformation section/article.

I personally have no opinion toward any of these, but may I have something useful? Jon166 05:01, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

For the very same reason Burning Blaze is listed although a product of the Sol Emeralds, and Hyper Sonic is listed although a product of the Super Emeralds. It's similar enough to a Chaos Emerald transformation to be listed. The others are not. That's really all there is to it XD.GrandMasterGalvatron 18:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, the Super Emeralds are the Chaos Emeralds powered up, and the Sol Emeralds are pretty much the Chaos Emeralds' reflections.

But even aside from the emeralds, why aren't Perfect Chaos, Devil Doom, and Finalhazard listed? Jon166 02:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Not similar enough to the player transformations is really the only reason. These aren't standard characters with auras in the least, but giant monsters of destruction. Much like Eggman's mechs after emerald usage. We wouldn't list all of those now would we :P It could also be hotly debated whether they are "super" transformations at all. The Mecha Sonic is a "super" (or whatever the name is) transformation controlled by the CPU. No stretch for that. Personally, I'm not even sure Devil Doom USED the Chaos Emeralds. I always thought that was his true form (like something out of a sentai). Just for that alone Devil doom couldn't be listed.

Chaos 0 himself is a product of the Chaos Emeralds' power (he was a chao) but he's not listed :P There's also Ultimate Emerl and Gmel's transformation. Those just aren't in the same league as the 50 rings crowd and are better suited to those character pages.

At least I think that's what'd be best. I'm open to debate on it ;)GrandMasterGalvatron 03:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Chaos was a Chao? o.o I would like to hear more about that for interest reasons. Anyway, I'm just going to stick to Mecha Sonic not going super. Super-like, sure, just like Mecha Sonic is Sonic-like. I see that this article is about the force that the heroes can use to fight the ultimate enemies. All of the characters thus far have seemed to need a heroic personality to be super. (That's why I was angered by Super Shadow and Super Sonic fighting in an episode of Sonic X.) Blaze and Shadow changed, for instance, and Tails seemed to have gotten stronger up to the point of being Super in Sonic Heroes. Again, maybe there should be a "Dark Super Transformation" page for characters that use the negative power of the emeralds. (But really, the "negative" is just the power in the emeralds, while what Super characters use is a link to the Master Emerald. Just as Hyper Forms are links to a loop of energy between the Super Emeralds and the Master Emerald.  Mecha Sonic used the power in the Master Emerald.  Whatever, that's more speculation.  I keep falling off the track of this reply...)  This page could include an actual list of Eggman mechs that use emeralds. Jon166 06:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

"sigh" Ok, lemme get somethings straight: 1. Mecha (more or less) went super using only the Master Emerald. But probably due to the fact that he didn't have an organic body, was why he wasn't able to keep the power as long as other users. He still did go super. 2. Yes, Chaos is a chao (see the article for info). 3. Black Doom never used the Chaos Emeralds for super transformation. He only used em to teleport the Black Comet into the earth's atmosphere. 4. All the Biolizard did was attach itself to the ARK. Nuff said. :P 5. Metal used to data of the heroes and the remains of the Egg Fleet to transform into Metal Overlord. 6. Solaris is the fusion of Mephiles and Ilbis. 7. "The servers are the seven Chaos. Chaos is power, power is enriched by the heart. The controller is the one that unifies the Chaos." While this might aply to Chaos Control, it still shows that the Emeralds turn thoughts into power. How else were several enemies able to use em properly? o_O 8. No mechs (other than Mecha). Emerl's Gizoid persona was awakened by the Chaos Emeralds. However, G-mel's transformation is debatable. 9. The only dark super transformations I can think of are Perfect Chaos and Dark Super Sonic (fromSonic X). But, DSS isn't in the games and PC doesn't fill the requirements of Super Transformation like the others.

Jon, believe me, unless you have proof (and I mean like a website or actual info from Sonic Team), don't try debating Mecha. Believe me, I tried. ChromeWulf ZX 15:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm..Jon is technically right. All transformations are named according to their power source and level. 1. 1st level Chaos/Super Emerald transformations are "super" 2. 2nd level Chaos/Super Emerald transformations are "hyper" 3. 1st level Sol Emerald transformations are "burning"

Mecha Sonic was a 1st level Master Emerald transformation. We don't know the official name for those. All we know is that it's a super transformation similar to the other types, and that's why it's here. Also, all of those use the positive energy of the emeralds. Perfect Chaos, Gmel, and Solaris did not...that's why they came out like they did. Ultimate Emerl did not use the emeralds' power but consumed the energy from the shot of the Final Egg Blaster. Final Hazard is not a transformation at all. He merged himself with the ARK by using Chaos Control. Metal Overlord used the power of other characters and Devil Doom tapped into his own hidden power. (it was never stated or implied that he used the Chaos Emeralds for anything other than Chaos Control)

The only ones that can really be debated are Perfect Chaos, this Mecha Sonic, GMel, and Solaris. They're the only enemies that used emerald power to transform, and Solaris is really iffy. GrandMasterGalvatron 16:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, starting with ChromeWulf:

1. He was just energizing. Sonic and his friends have a constant power, because the emeralds pretty much fuse with him. Perfect Chaos absorbed the connection, but apparently Sonic and friends used their positive energy to reclaim the power of the connection back into emeralds. This happened again in Sonic Rush, with the Sol Emeralds.

2. I was unnaware of this. Is this in the game? If it is, I don't remember it. If not, I need a source to be sure of it.

3. There isn't any evidence that he did, sure, but why didn't he do this long ago if he just could, instead of letting Shadow continue stealing his emeralds? o.o; Besides, Perfect Chaos and the final boss from Sonic Rush used the stored energy of the emeralds after Sonic or Blaze took them back. Why couldn't he?

4. No, enough isn't said. First, Sonic said "Where is he getting all that energy? Is that the power of the Chaos Emeralds (Em-er-alds!  Get it right Jason...)?  Shadow, are you okay?" This could have been referring to Shadow, or Finalhazard. Besides, Perfect Chaos, and the mech from Sonic Rush, could use stored emerald power even after Sonic (or Blaze) took the emeralds' power back, so why couldn't he? The Master Emerald broke the connection, it didn't steal his power. Additionally, the Eclipse Cannon, which he was attached to, was running on energy it took from the Emeralds at this point.

5. I didn't say he was going Super. I was saying, "If Mecha Sonic isn't going Super a set of emeralds, then why can't Metal Overlord be in the article?"

6. Refer to 5.

7. Well, first, I know this paragraph very well. Second, it says "heart," not "thoughts." Machines don't have hearts (Emerl did, but the Gizoid didn't), and Shadow and Blaze didn't have very open hearts at the point that they were Sonic's enemies. Once they got rid of their revenge and pride, they could go Super (or Burning. :p).

8. Refer to 5 for the Gizoid. G-mel, however, did use the emerald(s) just like Chaos, Mecha Sonic, the Biolizard, Devil Doom, and the Mech from Sonic rush.

9. Perfect Chaos's appearance means nothing. I do NOT think that he goes Super, though. However, I don't think Mecha does, either. Mecha just looks like a Super character, but he isn't. Just as he looks like a Hedgehog, but he isn't.  Eggman built him to look and act like Sonic, so when he got some energy, he used it. However, he didn't create a link to unlimited power, but just sucked a bit off every once and a while.

Now GrandMasterGalvatron:

10. Your 1 and 2 were right, but "Burning" just comes from the fact that Blaze has Iblis's power of fire. Sonic could use the Sol Emeralds to go Super, but that would be pointless with him having the Chaos Emeralds. Not sure what would happen if he used both Chaos and Sol. Not nearly enough to go Hyper, but well over Super.

11. Now let me read this again. "2nd level "Chaos"/Super Emerald transformations are hyper." Erm... If somebody had the power of 7 Chaos Emeralds prior to getting them, I suppose they could to Hyper...  Still, nobody has seemed to possibly have this power. Only some sort of superbeing from another planet might be able to achieve this. Black Doom wasn't even that powerful. Nobody on Earth could come close, besides maybe Sonic when he matures into an adult.

12. Those that "didn't use the positive energy" used the emeralds in a negative way, but the positive energy of Sonic and his friends are powerful enough to overcome them. ("Chaos is power, power is enriched by the heart.")

13. The Chaos Emeralds drove Emerl to his "Gizoid Madness," that of which Professor Gerald experienced when exposing him to the Emeralds' power. But just as they give him his old, crazed Gizoid personality, they give him his ultimate moves, which were created along with him, able to be unlocked only through getting all of his power through training, or through unlocking his original power and personality with the Emeralds.

14. Refer to 4.

15. Iblis just needed the small power of one emerald to fuse with Mephiles, similar to our Sun fusing Hydrogen and Helium, giving off huge amounts of energy, while using less to create the fusion. Hence the name "Solaris."

16. From my point of view, G-mel, Perfect Chaos, and Mecha Sonic didn't go Super. I mentioned that if Mecha is, then the others should. They don't actually turn Super though, but rather feed off of energy to transform. For example, a large electrical power plant could probably even be used to transform these characters. Again, there should be an article or section separate for those who don't actually go Super, but rather transform with energy. Jon166 21:49, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice anaylsis!

Blaze: Iblis has nothing to do with it. The "Burning" is probably a literal term when you take into account that her cuffs are literally on fire. Sonic would probably have a similar transformation with the Sol Emeralds.

About 4: Actually..that is enough said. Sonic's trying to kill the FinalHazard, he has no reason to worry about it's safety. When he was asking about Shadow, he meant the Hedgehog. It may have been using some energy from the emeralds, but nowhere near enough to attain "super" status. Even if he was, the merge with the ARK was powered by Chaos Control it wouldn't fit in this article anyway.

Emerl: The Emeralds did not unlock his power. The unlocked his personality and capturing abilities. Notice that he was fine after Shadow used the keyword. It was capturing that boatload of Energy from the stars destroyed by the Final Egg Blaster (or as Sonic says, "Final something or other") that drove him insane.

What I said about Hyper: You're over analyzing that one..or I just stated it badly. If you can already go Super with the plain ol' Chaos Emeralds, and you unlock the power of the Super Emeralds, you go "Hyper". Hyper mode is pretty much a Level 2 super mode. Sonic and Knuckles have done it. In theory, Shadow should be able to do it. Silver and Tails are now iffy. Sonic pumped them both full of Chaos Emerald energy, it's hard to tell whether they could do it on their own. Tails would be a no, but he's been retconned a bit since the old days. Actually...Knuckles might fall into that category too, but we haven't seen him attempt to harness the energy on his own since the old days. We'll have to wait for future developments on the three of them.

About Mecha: I'm glad you're not being shallow like the last person I dealt with here and just going by looks XD (Scroll up a bit for that madness). You've raised some fine points here. Mecha's weakness was that he couldn't retain the energy indefinitely, however, that seems to be a general robot trait. Gmel siphoned a load of the negative energy from the emeralds, yet still didn't absorb them into his being. I think it's safe to say Mecha took enough energy to become Super, but not enough to stay that way. (after all, how could you beat him if he did) After all, he's still got the invincible, super speed, and flight the others have. Actually, you could say he had the ring count thing in a sense as well. Super forms are ring dependent right? Super Sonic's profile on Sonic Channel says that the transformation consumes large amounts of energy and can only be maintained for a short time. It looks like some times are shorter than others.

Chaos: The chao bit is in his Sonic Channel profile. He's the Feb. poster boy XDGrandMasterGalvatron 16:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'll just jump right back in, then. ^^

Blaze: Well, seeing as she gets her fire powers from Iblis, I would think that it's the same for her Super transformation... Remember, Super forms have added or increased flight, increased power, increased speed, and increased the power of normal abilities. Just as with Silver's increased psychokinetic range, Shadow's increased use of Chaos Spear, and Sonic's even faster superspeed, Blaze's fire powers are increased. She's just called burning because it changes her overall appearance, as well as attacks.

4: I said that badly... I know he was referring to Shadow when he said "Shadow, are you okay?" I meant he could have been referring to either Shadow or Finalhazard when he said "Where does he get all that power? Is that the power of the Chaos Emeralds?" right before warning Shadow. He could be asking if Finalhazard was using the Chaos Emeralds. However, he could be wondering if Shadow's extra power is from the Chaos Emeralds, or another source. Both are completely plausable statements. Either way, whether Finalhazard goes Super or not is very debatable. I don't think he did, but his energy did increase. In other words, I place him in the category Mecha Sonic, but not in the category of Sonic. That's why I think Mecha should be in a different category than Sonic.

Emerl: I went over Sonic Battle again in my mind, you're right. That isn't a Super Transformation. I'm still puzzled, though. The power of the Final Egg Blaster showed that Eggman had more power than Sonic, and helped him establish a new link. Sonic wasn't able to all of a sudden let Emerl have all of his Ult. skills, but why did he have them once Eggman was his linkee?

Hyper: Yes, that was what I thought it was. I guess it was just a little misreading/mistyping... All I have to say is that I agree that the retconned Tails, due to age, can now go Hyper with the Super Emeralds. Silver can, too. Well, let me go over that again. Tails might be able to go Hyper. We don't know, because, just as you said, Sonic was pumping the energy to them. Especially because, instead of glowing, he just had an aura barrier. That's just Sonic energizing him and Knuckles. Sonic Next Gen's super group is different though. He just seemed to let Shadow and Silver take the power. Remember, Team Super shared a ring count, while Next Gen Super team members each had their own ring count, just as in Sonic Adventure 2.

Mecha: I've been looking forward to replying to this one. :3 Well, first, in Sonic Adventure 2, a Super Sonic quote mentions him saying that Shadow's ring energy is too low, and he needs to switch with him. So rings do provide energy, that's for sure. Sonic has control over the emeralds, just as he says in Sonic Rush that the emerald sets can coexist if the one who holds them knows how to control them. Sonic has a sort of symbiosis with the emeralds. Mecha, even though he does use rings and get normal Super abilities, just takes some of the energy from the Master Emerald, just as G-Mel did to the Chaos Emeralds. Super Mecha Sonic had Super Sonic appearance and abilities, because normal Mecha Sonic has normal Sonic abilities. He is programmed to copy Sonic, and if that means copying Super Sonic when he gets enough energy, that's what he must do. However, instead of keeping his energy high enough, he just fills up enough to change, and then holds it while he can.

Chaos: Well, that's a source. Still, I'm beginning to question Sonic Channel's canonicity. Jon166 05:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I think Emerl couldn't use all the Ultimate Skills simply for gameplay reasons; he can't get more than 500 Skill Points. The rest... I have no idea about. I'm no super expert like GMG. Gurko 09:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The ring count is obviously for gameplay reasons. Sonic, Shadow, and Silver had their own ring counts because you couls swap between them, but only use one at a time. With Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles, you had all three right there. If you could replenish your rings by just switching formations, it'd totally cheapen the fight. Also, Sonic and Blaze had two different sets of emeralds, yet had a shared ring count. I still don't get the logic for that one. XD As for the appearances of the two Team Supers, scroll up a bit, Knuckles has a technical reason, Tails is just a minor character. Sonic, Shadow, and Silver got this odd thing where they're all hedgehogs, have the same height and weight, their names start with "S", and now they've all got yellow transformations with red eyes. Sonic's still got the most dramatic change(main character bias), but the other two don't look too far off. Mecha also fits the yellow hedgehog red eye deal. I kinda think Knuckles and Tails are possibly being phased out as characters...it certainly seems that way. Sonic Channel data is written by Sonic Team...I think they of all people know what's going on XD.GrandMasterGalvatron 17:24, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, something else I wanna say. The Iblis statement is null and void for several reasons. The primary one being the retcon at the end of the game. The events just flat out never happened.GrandMasterGalvatron 22:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, a note to both of you, whether the reason is technical or gameplay, it is still in the game. Sonic Team could have found a way to make anything work if they had to. For instance, they could have made an aura surrounding Knuckles and Tails's bodies, rather than having a barrier. However, they didn't. The same goes for the ring count, and the fact that Emerl has all his moves. Speaking of Emerl, he did enter the Gizoid personality before, but he didn't fight as the Gizoid. He may have had all of his Ult. moves right there.

The fact that Blaze and Sonic share a ring count does disprove that my ideas are definately true. But remember, they might pass on their energy, just as when you switch the leader in Sonic Heroes with any team, they have the same amount of rings.

Here's a question though: How do the unnused characters in the Solaris battle collect rings, when nothing exists anymore? o.o;

And Mecha fits the yellow color and red eye deal, because he's copying Sonic. Remember, he fits the blue color and spikey hair deal, too, but he isn't Sonic. :p

And as far as the fact that Sonic, Shadow, and Silver's similarities, there might be an unseen force involved. Remember, Super Sonic was painted on the wall in Hidden Palace. That could mean that the Super form was some kind of predestined power. Silver could be the future version, as Sonic is the present. Shadow may have either been made by Gerald seeing the painting, or by the same destiny thing. Of course, we don't know if this is true, but it might be a nice theory to think about, as long as we're on the topic.

Also, some part of Sonic Team might have written Sonic Channel, but I highly doubt that they must go through the approval of authorities that the makers of games do. Similarly, I doubt those that write the story write Sonic Channel. Sonic Channel isn't in a game, so I don't see it as a reliable source for information. Although, I won't argue it, because it could very well be right. Just remember this if something in a game contradicts Sonic Channel, okay?

Finally, Blaze receiving Iblis wasn't retconned, as changing the storyline of Sonic Next Gen wouldn't affect a different dimension. Why else would she have her flames, anyway? Also, when Solaris undid pretty much all of the past, besides bringing Sonic & friends out of time, Blaze still wasn't able to be brought. She was as major of a character as others there, and there is no reason that she shouldn't be there, too. Jon166 00:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The sphere aura is fine considering it was used the previous four games :P This was just a way to gradually phase it out. However, I bet the next time they transform, they will have different auras. There is no unseen force, it's just because Sonic Team likes those three a hell of a lot more than they do Tails and Knuckles, hell..they even said that in an interview once! XD (They really like Silver)

Blaze was supposed to be in another world so she wouldn't have been with the cast anyway. Blaze had fire powers before taking in Iblis. It was because of her fire powers that she could take in Iblis in the first place. Solaris was completely erased from existence, which means that nothing in Sonic '06 ever happened except for the very last scene. This means that there was no Iblis, which in turn, means no sacrifice from Blaze. With Solaris never existed, the future was effected enough to create the events of Sonic Rush and Sonic Rivals, in which Blaze, Silver, and Nega are all from the future. Blaze is still a pyrokinetic, and Silver is still a psychokinetic. Blaze's profiles ignore the events of '06 as they should, because it just plain didn't happen.

Nothing in the games will ever contradict what is written on Sonic Channel. This stuff comes straight from the game makers. I'm completely sure it can be trusted...not to mention it's all in Japanese anyway.GrandMasterGalvatron 13:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Heh..get a load of this..they like Silver so much, that his picture is in the Circle Player update of today, even though it's only talking about server downtime! XDGrandMasterGalvatron 13:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Auras: They've had the aura barriers without Super Transformation since the Sonic Adventure games, anyway. I just wonder why they didn't have something surrounding their bodies or some other simple effect to show that they do an independant transformation.

Blaze: Nevermind anything I said about this. I don't have Sonic Next Gen yet, and I was told that she didn't have her fire abilities in Sonic Next Gen. If this is the case, Iblis may have never existed, but Sonic Rush still took place in a different dimension. And this dimension was created from the events in Sonic Next Gen. I mean, the future doesn't have the Sol Emeralds, and I doubt that Blaze is queen in the future of Sonic's dimension. The Sol Emeralds are still mirrors of the Chaos Emeralds though. The Burning effect is from Blaze's control over fire, not the Sol Emeralds. Also, is she confirmed to be in the future yet?

As for the hedgehog theory, I was just trying to come up with ideas. What you're saying is the out-of-game explanation, but SonicTeam might have an in-game explanation, too. Jon166 04:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Well...Heroes was really experimental. They just came off Sonic DX which used the sphere effect and Sonic X had the full body outline. They've already used something like that before, but now they were just seeing what they could do with it. I suppose they wanted to see how blending the styles would look.

As for Sonic 06, ignore it completely...it's retconned itself out the storyline. Sonic Rivals is where it's at. Here Silver is still from the future. Eggman Nega is also revealed to be from that same future. In fact, he's a descendant of Eggman! Since Eggman Nega and Blaze are from the same world, this means that Blaze's "dimension" is actually the future. The chaos and Sol emeralds were not mentioned, but the Master Emerald was. Much like Sonic 06's final boss Solaris, the M.E. transcends all timelines. If you screw with it in one time, you've affected it for all times past, present, and future. (WTF?! Paradox much?) The true orgin of the Sol emeralds has yet to be revealed.

The "burning" may be a literal term (probably due to the burning cuffs and aura of fire), but note that all 1st level super forms with the Chaos Emeralds are called "super". There has yet to be a 1st level DBZ like form from the Chaos Emeralds that wasn ' t called "super". The Sol emeralds might break that trend for themselves, but we have yet to see it and can't assume it.

Likewise, the M.E. transformation might be called "super" also, for it being like the Chaos Emeralds, but we just don't know that.

As for the yellow boys, I see your point. I personally don't think they do, but then again, they just might come up with something XD.GrandMasterGalvatron 17:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

You're right about the Master Emerald transcending time. No arguement there. But I'm not so sure that it causes a transformation. We know it gives off energy, but it hasn't ever transformed any characters that weren't machines. Also, remember that scene in Hidden Palace Zone when Eggman steals the Master Emerald? It looked like he was able to shock Knuckles with it, wrather than Knuckles absorbing the power directly. The same electric effect is seen with Mecha Sonic, but Mecha Sonic uses the power.

And I would think Blaze's dimension is different. I doubt she could be the Queen of the world, know everything about the Sol Emeralds, and never have heard of Chaos Emeralds. Also, I doubt that Silver would send Blaze to another dimension and Sonic Rush mentioning another dimension frequently if there wasn't going to actually be one. xp

Also, if it really is a different dimension parallel to Sonic's, then the Sol Emeralds would be equal to the Chaos Emeralds. Blaze has practically uncontrollable pyrokinesis, so it would make sense that she gets a different transformation name.

Finally, I'm not sure if Blaze will be in the future. Perhaps Silver sent Blaze into another dimension in the future anyway, for some other reason. Either way, it would be confusing to see Blaze from the future, and another Blaze from a different dimension. Remember, just because the Master Emerald transcends time, it doesn't mean Blaze transcends dimensions. xp Jon166 01:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'm confused (probably due to the fact that I haven't been keeping up with this discussion for about 5 days). Can someone keep me up to date, so that I can get back into this? ChromeWulf ZX 02:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, sure. We've been debating Super Forms and other related things in the Sonic Series. If you need to know more, I guess all you can do is read it. Jon166 02:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Damnit! I read the entire things, and I still don't what I should say! I'll just wait til something comes up. Continue. I'll only be a spectator til someone says something that I don't think is true. ChromeWulf ZX 02:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Well..it looks like we've come to and agreement of sorts and are discussing the M.E. and how it relates to the article. To that I'll say that the Hyper Forms are directly connected to it in a sense. Remember in the Hyper endings, the characters stay transformed as long as they are in it's presence.GrandMasterGalvatron 15:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

And I'm guessing that you guys are saying that that's notable because characters in Super forms would revert without the necessary Rings even if they were surrounded by the M.E/C.Es? ChromeWulf ZX 22:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

And wait?! Whaddabout Mecha? Wasn't the entire discussion based on Mecha's validity as a Super form? o_O ChromeWulf ZX 22:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, a few things. ChromeWulf, we're discussing whether or not a robot using the Master Emerald is a Super Transformation. This was what Mecha Sonic did.

GMG, the Master Emerald always sends out flowing energy. It can be used to stop the Chaos Emeralds' energy, which shows that the Master Emerald provides energy to the Chaos Emeralds. Also, as in hidden palace, if the Chaos Emeralds are brought to the Master Emerald, they can be formed into Super Emeralds by being so close to their source of power. Sonic then played each special stage to direct their energies to himself: Super: Master Emerald ---long distance---> Chaos Emeralds ---short distance---> Sonic. Hyper: Master Emerald ---short distance---> Super Emeralds ---long distance---> Sonic. Then you'd think, why does the change give more energy? Well, I think that the Master Emerald provides energy for more things. We know it is used for lifting Angel Island, and for Mechs. I think it also is what creates rings. If a majority of the energy goes straight to the Super Emeralds, then there is less unused energy flying out into space on it's way to the Chaos Emeralds. Then when Sonic beats the Super Emerald special stages, he creates a link with them, so their energy gets tuned into him. Also, when Sonic has the Master Emerald, he can stay as Hyper Sonic because of the energy from it. Remember how Sonic told Shadow to watch his ring energy? Well, if Rings are energy, and obviously the Master Emerald has energy, what's to say Sonic can't use that energy to retain this form? And besides, Mecha Sonic can shoot out an unlimited amount of rings after he has sucked energy from the Master Emerald. Could this be the same effect?

Also, I'm going to try to animate Hyper Sonic, maybe in space. I'm not sure if it will be worth adding, but I feel like a green picture isn't enough. Jon166 03:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I tried the animation, but I didn't have a high enough frame rate to do the afterimages, and I haven't gotten the sparkle patterns down, but I have this: http://i1.tinypic.com/v41lxk.gif  Not worth putting in, buy maybe could help with those who have never seen him. Jon166 05:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC) I just remembered a quote a bit ago: Mag: Have you recieved comments from Akira Toriyama about Super Sonic? Why can he transform almost automatically? Naka: Oh…(smile) we didn't recieve comments from him. And if Sonic got this power, it's a question of mastery. Okay, I just noticed the last part. "...it's a question of mastery." Mastery? As in the Master Emerald? Jon166 02:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmmm...you have a good point about the C.E.s/M.E. And this page might haveta be archived if this discussion keeps going for awhile. ChromeWulf ZX 22:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Hyper Shadow?
The title contradicts the article... I don't know how to change the pic caption, so.....someone do it for me... --Superbub 01:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, everything seems normal now. ChromeWulf ZX 19:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah, someone changed it. Thank you--Superbub 01:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No problem. ChromeWulf ZX 04:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Darkspines Sonic
Ahem yes...Sonic has a new transformation in Secret Rings, but it's not a super transformation per se...

Sonic merges with Shara's spirit and the power of the World Rings to become Darkspines Sonic. This form is essentially the games' answer to Dark Super Sonic. What do you all think should be done about this form?GrandMasterGalvatron 14:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

...Good question. It's a transformation, but it's not super. And the transformation section was removed from Sonic's article because of this one. Though super transformation (other media) has transformations like Titan Tails, that don't use the Chaos Emeralds either. Gurko 15:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm...it definitely doesn't seem to be a "super" transformation per se, but it is a transformation, like Metal Madness, Devil Doom and the like. Maybe, we should make an article on false or psuedo transformations. Just a suggestion... ChromeWulf ZX 01:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, ChromeWulf is right, there should be another article. There are many transformations that aren't Super, but still are transformations. The only issue I can see is figuring out where to put Mecha Sonic. Jon166 06:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but "Minor transformations in Sonic the Hedgehog" seems a bit crufty. Gurko 13:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Though I haven't touched the page, it seems people are content with him being here. He's already been added and tweaked by several IPs. Only problem is he doesn't follow the rules of super transformation :/GrandMasterGalvatron 17:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Nah, Darkspines doesn't belong here. Maybe he should go under somethin' like Powered Up Forms in Sonic the Hedgehog. Characters like the FinalHazard, Perfect Chaos, Devil Doom, Metal Madness, and (maybe) Solaris (what was the verdict on Solaris?) could go under there. Any disagreements? ChromeWulf ZX 02:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but there is one thing. Would Powered up forms in Sonic the Hedgehog REALLY qualify as notable? Gurko 20:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm...you make a pretty good point. I really don't have an answer to that question. ChromeWulf ZX 03:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The truth on Darkspine Sonic: He does not get under the control of Shahra nor does Shahra use the Rings for herself. What happens is several of the rings enter him and then he transforms. Looking at the broken ring that was his bond with Shahra, he says "Shahra, lend me your power!" You still are Sonic and not Shahra using his body. By the fact that Burning Blaze uses the Sol Emeralds and Hyper Sonic uses the Super Emeralds, I'd say Darkspine Sonic using the World Rings does fit with the description here. - "Tails Ohki" from GameFAQs 67.173.62.22 03:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Finally got to the end of SatSR... Anyway, if you put Burning Blaze in this list, then Darkspine Sonic belongs here, as Tails Ohki said. On the same note, if we do make a new transformation page for sub-tranformations, Darkspine Sonic does not belong there. He uses seven objects that follow the same color pattern, and have the same "universal power". And back to GMG, I think this answers our questions about Burning Blaze. Well, sort of. The creators of Arabian Nights had their emotions put into the World Rings, and Blaze's flames could have been put into the Sol Emeralds. At the same time, Sonic gained fire powers from his Flame Arrow, and these powers were amplified with the World Rings. I'm guessing both flame amplifications were used by Burning Blaze, and if Sonic uses the Sol Emeralds, he could very well transform into Burning Sonic.

Also, isn't it kind of weird that Darkspine Sonic has just about every trait that Shadow had, but Super Sonic didn't?

Super Sonic: Red Eyes, Upward Spines

Darkspine Sonic: The wrist and ankle rings, the darkness, the extra color strips on his spines, the emoness, common use of chaos control Jon166 07:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

DS isn't emo (neither is Shadow) and he doesn't use Chaos Control XD.GrandMasterGalvatron 13:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that Sonic would/could use the Sol Emeralds. Besides, the flame arrow is completely different from the Emeralds. ChromeWulf ZX 00:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, first, I use the term emo lightly. (I also don't use it in a negative way.) I meant to say that they aren't calm, and show their rage, hate, and so on. And Time Break is a form of Chaos Control, as is Time Stop from Sonic Adventure 2. Time Break and Speed Break are almost identical to Shadow's Boss and Level forms of Chaos Control.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Black Doom mentioned that the Chaos Emeralds just amplify the power of Chaos Control. We've seen Shadow go without an emerald, and we've seen Sonic use a fake one. I think he gets enough power from either the flame arrow, the skill ring, or the just plain "mastery" of it (represented as experience points).

Anyway, you are right, the flame arrow is completely different from the Emeralds. I was comparing it to Blaze's pyrokinesis. And Sonic doesn't have any use for the Sol Emeralds now, and we don't know if we will ever see them again, but it is still possible. Jon166 04:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought that Time Stop in SA2 was just to put Sonic on equal groiund w/ Shad in battle mode and not reveal that Sonic later gains the ability. I'm not sure about Time Break. It's possible, but I'm a bit skeptical. ChromeWulf ZX 20:13, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

That's true, Time Stop may not be canon, but Sonic can still do Chaos Control. It just tells us that if he used it as often as Shadow, he would say "Time Stop". Jon166 05:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

super rouge/omega
using a mod in sonic heroes there can be a team dark in a super form, creating super rouge and omega. although this is only by a mod, shouldnt it be in the super forms [otrher media] ? also im really stuck on getting the 7 emeralds on sonic heroes, could someone give me some cheats/ tactics to get them. mt 1994


 * Okay, first off, mods don't count. Secondly this is Wikipedia, not a game tips site, go to Gamespot or something if you want tips and cheats. --Zikar 10:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Yep, it's harsh, but sooooo true. ChromeWulf ZX 03:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The name is Darkspines
Because the strategy guide says so and no one has provided a citation to prove otherwise.

With that said, unless someone can verify the "Darkspine" name (I'll need at least three people who own the game to confirm it), it shall stay "Darkspines". It's simply policy mates. The latter's got a hard citation and nothing against it but fan wishes..at least so far...GrandMasterGalvatron 14:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's what I find funny. People are citing the Prima Strategy Guide. Remember their Sonic Heroes guide? On page 133 they say this: "This is the final battle and Gold Sonic is ready to go with his super powers." I'm still having a hard time understand why people think of Prima as an official source, just because the word Official is labeled on the cover.

EDIT: Also, from my understanding, Prima was also the one whom had "Hyper Shadow" printed in their guide of Sonic Adventure 2. Yup... real dependable.

--Jinjo Ace 00:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Here, I'll end the debate myself: It's Darkspine. Go to the Secret Book in SatSR after opening the final videos, and go to Chapter 9, Video 12. It's titled "Alf Layla wa-Layla Appears". The description given in the entry before you play it is thus:

"A sad scene, Darkspine Sonic appears and gets ready for the final showdown!" Looks to be page 132.

So, according to the game itself, the form is called "Darkspine Sonic" Anyone else who owns the game and has unlocked that movie can prove it; it's right there in the open. Kaosu Reido 08:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Needs a hard citation...screenshot plz.GrandMasterGalvatron 19:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Not an issue: They're from a digital camera, and they're shots of my TV. None of them are great quality, but I don't have a way to hook my Wii up to the monitor. Here:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6412/dscn0028iu8.jpg http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/921/dscn0029sf5.jpg http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1199/dscn0030eg3.jpg http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9424/dscn0031cl0.jpg http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8170/dscn0032si7.jpg http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9638/dscn0033fi1.jpg http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4760/dscn0037wu6.jpg

Posted so many so no one screams "But they were doctored!". But the quality sucks anyhow. Kaosu Reido 02:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. Now I won't get served when I try to argue against the Darkspines name. Good Work ^^GrandMasterGalvatron 03:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the pics. This definitely ends the name debate here. Plus, we know of the official name as well. --Jinjo Ace 20:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)