Talk:Surf culture/Archive 1

Contents menu position
Is it possible to fix the position of the contents menu panel, so it appears beside the introduction, rather than below it with blank space beside it? Maradja 00:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That's been fixed. —Kenyon (t·c) 08:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Post Surf Culture for speedy deletion
I've requested speedy deletion of the apparent attack page Post Surf Culture. I mention it here because this is the only page that currently links to it, so the link should presumably be deleted from this page if the attack article is indeed deleted. --Officiallyover 14:23, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Awesome expansion of this article!
See talk:Gidget for some background. Andrewa 07:43, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

"Localism" Inaccurate/Incomplete?
It's interesting that only the negative side of "localism" is portraied in this article.

Don't get me wrong, localism has a very definate negative side.

But it also has a positive side, where groms and newcomers pay their dues and are mentored by older, more experienced locals in a give spot or area. This is somewhat like an apprenticeship.

Also, we don't reference well know "surf gangs" like Da Hui and the Bra Boys, who are intricately tied in with localism and surf culture and have Wikipedia entries of their own. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dougirwin13 (talk • contribs) 01:17, September 20, 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and everything before the Quotes section should probably be broken up into more sections. —Kenyon (t·c) 08:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree that if such can be found it should be included. Anarchangel (talk) 06:09, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * My group and i have added information on surf gangs and it may take a day or two to get all of the citation it, but we're working on it!:) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kassie0303 (talk • contribs) 03:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Surf Gangs
Hi guys, like i said earlier my group contributed a section about surf gangs. We thought this relevant to localism because of the tendency for gangs to form because of this value. 3 out of 4 gangs are not listed on Wikipedia so we thought it would be important to add them considering their prevelance in surf culture. We did give a brief description of the Bra Boys and added a hyperlink to their other page on Wikipedia. We are still waiting for the citations to be put in for Cito Rats and they should be up soon. Let us know what you think! user:Kassie0303 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kassie0303 (talk • contribs) 03:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the gangs should be added as it's part of the localism that has already been mentioned.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:55, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

General Surfing Issues
I've added merge tags to three sections that seem to belong more in the general surfing article than this surfing culture sub-article. I think they fall out of the scope of this article. -- Jmartinsson 20:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

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Under "fashion", should Hollister Co. be added?
i think it should because technically, hollister's theme is california, surfing, and beach... what does everyone else think? - J-Whitt 02:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Delete surf terminology
A large section of this article is a list of surf terminology. There is already a link to a glossary of surfing terms on Wiktionary, which appears to be a more appropriate place. Unless I hear otherwise in the next few days, I will be deleting this section. Please post any thoughts about this removal on this talk page. Thanks, Alanraywiki (talk) 14:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I am moving the surf terminology to the talk page for a few more days. That will allow any valid words not included on Wiktionary to be moved over there.


 * Air: getting airborne
 * Aerial: airborne maneuver
 * Amped: charged up; stoked; fired
 * Backdoor: to pull into a tube from behind the peak
 * Bail: to abandon a board; jump off; usually without regard to the board's future
 * Bake: a closeout
 * Barreled: this is when the tube catches up to you and you bail
 * Bashing: body surfing
 * Bitchen: top notch stoke
 * Boost: getting airborne off the lip
 * Brah: from bruddah, Hawaiian pidgin for brother
 * Bro: a buddy or friend
 * Bro-in-a push from a friend into a wave
 * Bucked: helmet
 * Bump: a swell
 * Bumps: the build-up of wax on a surfboard deck
 * Carve: symmetrical, fluid turns
 * Cheater five: five toes on the nose &mdash; keep your weight back on the board to maintain trim and speed, squat down and extend one foot forward
 * Clucked: afraid, intimidated by the wave
 * Crew: a group of surfers defined by break or area
 * Cutback: a maneuver where the surfer turns sharply back towards the breaking portion of the wave. See also 'S-turn'
 * Deck: the top surface of the board
 * Ding: damage to a surfboard
 * Dogging: going backside in the pit
 * Drop: as in dropping from the crest of the wave to the pit
 * Dropping in: catching a wave that is already occupied ... taking off on the shoulder while someone is taking off deeper
 * Drop in late: catching the steepest part of a wave
 * Dune: a big peaky wave
 * Epoxy: alternative board construction to foam
 * Falls: the pitching lip of the wave &mdash; don't get sucked into this
 * Fan: a fan of spray off a turn such as a water skier throws
 * Fluff: spray off the lip
 * Falls: top of the wave pitches out and throws a waterfall shoreward
 * Fish: a type of short surfboard that is wide, fairly thick for added buoyancy and has two fins; popular in the 1970s
 * Frigged: snaked
 * Full on: with commitment and intensity
 * Funky: A slang term for cool, used by surfers regularly
 * Fuzz: the police a term use in earlier days
 * Gash: very sharp turn
 * Gnarly: awesome and intimidating
 * Going off: a break under optimum conditions
 * Goofy Foot: Someone who has his right foot forward instead of his left
 * Gouge: sharp, fast turn
 * Gremmies: grem or gremmie is short for gremlin &mdash; Sixties US term for young, possibly or probably mischievous surfer, pre-adolescent surfer
 * Green room: inside a full cover-up tube
 * Grommet: adolescent surfer
 * Gun: a variant of board shape made for big waves
 * Gunned: under-gunned or over-gunned; refers to the size of your board in relation to wave conditions
 * Hawaiian scale: a system of wave measurement used by surfers
 * Hiddie: from hideous,intense
 * Hooting: howling and yelping approval and encouragement to buddies
 * Jag: retreat after getting worked
 * Kook: someone posing very hard as a surfer. An unskilled surfer
 * Lineup: the location in the ocean where the outer waves are breaking
 * Lip: the portion of the wave that is breaking and falling from top to bottom, especially in hollow waves
 * Local: a person who lives near a surfspot and surfs there almost daily
 * Log: a long surfboard
 * Meatball flag: black with a yellow dot in the middle, means no surfing today
 * Mondo: Another synonym for cool.
 * Nipped: nipples rubbed raw by board or suit
 * Noodle: exhausted, overall condition or specific as in noodle armed
 * Nose ride: to walk up to the front of the deck
 * Outrageous: An adjective used to describe a particularly difficult wave or surf session
 * Over the falls: inadvertently riding the lip of a wave as it breaks rather than the face of the wave
 * Pit: the hollow-est portion of a breaking wave
 * Pitch: throw &mdash; angle of any run to rise
 * Pitted: being in the pit of the wave
 * Pearl: to go pearl diving, the nose of you board submerges and usually the wave pushes the rest of the board over the nose, you too
 * Pintail: the shape of the tailend of a surfboard, tapering to a point
 * Pop: kick out
 * Pop-out: a surfboard that comes from a mold for mass production, in contrast to being shaped.
 * Poser: a non-surfer playing the role of a surfer
 * Pucker factor: the effect an intimidating wave has on ones ability to remain relaxed
 * Puff: a spitting wave
 * Pumping: above average large swell
 * Quiver: a surfer's collection of boards, a board bag that holds several boards
 * Rails: the side edges of the board that interact with the wave's energy
 * Rip: to surf to the height of one's abilities
 * Rocker: the bend in the board, as in a rocking chair
 * Room: inside a large barrel
 * S-turn: an advanced maneuver where a sharp turn is made on the shoulder of the wave in the shape of an 'S'; a type of cutback
 * Schlong: thick, long, old style single-fin surfboard
 * Squid: unlikeable individual
 * Scab: a reef or rock
 * Scabbed: getting damaged by a reef or rock
 * Shred: ability to execute rapid repeated turns &mdash; shortboard term
 * Sick: excellent, top notch &mdash; describing a surfer, stunt, maneuver or conditions
 * Sideslip: when your board stops tracking forward and moves sideways
 * Slam: bounce off the lip as it begins to pitch
 * Slash: cutback
 * Staff (staph): Infections from polluted water and open wounds
 * Snake: paddling around behind someone who is in position and stealing their wave. Effectively the snake is taking ownership of the wave by being the closest rider to the breaking portion of the wave
 * Spray: the water coming off a wave
 * Stink-eye: hard, cold, menacing stare
 * Stoked: geared up, wound up, full of enthusiasm
 * Stylie: with good form &mdash; with grace
 * SUP: stand up paddle surfing
 * Sup: asking another surfer what they have been doing
 * Surfer's knots: large bumps on the tops of feet and on knees caused by callusing where one continuously contacts a board
 * Stuffed: getting driven under the water by a wave coming down on you
 * Swish: a meek or fearful surfer
 * Thrashed: when a wave lays a beating on you
 * Throwing tail: sliding the tail in a turn, breaking the grip of the fins
 * Thruster: a surboard with 3 fins with the center fin more towards the tail
 * Tow-in surfing/Tow-ins: getting towed into waves that are too large to paddle into
 * Trim: adjusting your position on a board so that it planes, and achieves its maximum speed
 * Tube: the cylindrical or cone shaped hole created when the lip pitches out far and clean enough to create a space between the wave and the falls
 * Vertical: turn straight up the wave
 * Waffling: rapidly working the board back and forth
 * Wahine: A young female surfer
 * Wannabe: wan-na-be, someone who wants to be a skater
 * Wax: paraffin + color + scent + additives to make it apply at specific temperatures. Used on deck of boards for traction
 * Wipe out: a fall, particularly a spectacular fall
 * Worked, getting: the action a wave plays on you. It feels like being in a large washing machine
 * Wyatt: Slang for a horrible surfer.
 * Zoo: excessively crowded in the water


 * Alanraywiki (talk) 15:51, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably solved. There is a link to Wiktionary now, that has a long list of surf slang, and a short list at Surfing. Anarchangel (talk) 06:09, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

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"Surfer" high schools in the Los Angeles area
The article needs to mention the various high schools in the Los Angeles area which have always had a large surfer student body such as Venice High, Santa Monica High, Palisades High, Culver City High.--jeanne (talk) 15:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know if it needs to, but if the article does include "surfer" high schools then there should be a citation from a reliable source that they are considered such. And because this is a worldwide encyclopedia, I would not limit it to just L.A. high schools. Alanraywiki (talk) 16:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I attended Venice High and it was always called a "surfer" high school, same as the others I listed. And yes, it shouldn't be limited to Los Angeles.Finding the sources which label them as such could be a time-consuming problem though.--jeanne (talk) 16:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The lack of citations is a huge problem with this article. The article really needs to become more encyclopedic, so more verifiable content and less original research is needed.  So while I personally don't have a problem with adding a section like that, we really do need citations.  That would include the "surfer" high school I attended, Huntington Beach High School.  Thanks, Alanraywiki (talk) 16:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Stupid Article
Sorry, but this article is just dumb. What next? A full-length article about water skiing culture? --98.196.33.67 (talk) 11:05, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Why is it dumb to use your expresion? Surfing and the culture which accompanies the sport/lifestyle has been around for many decades in places such as Southern California, Hawaii, Australia, so an article is quite appropriate.--jeanne (talk) 08:02, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Struck WP:SOAPBOX not furthering the improvement of the main article. Do not feed the trolls. Anarchangel (talk) 06:09, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Spirituality
I just do not believe someone set out to make a 'spirituality' section about how some surfers are Christians. Someone please look in the history for the original stuff, thank you. Help WP help you. Anarchangel (talk) 06:09, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Issues with two large similar changes
A major addition was made here. I removed it with this comment "Removes uncited personal essay. Although well enough written, it's in a style suited to a magazine or a school essay. The idea of an encyclopedia is to stick to verifiable facts." The material was reworked in an interesting way here. But I don't feel the basic issues were resolved. (Btw, I live on a coast with surfing, so I am familiar with the culture.)

Surfers have a belief that somehow because their interest is embodied by the Beach Boys and in Hollywood movies that somehow their passion is different from that of skateboarders, rock climbers, scuba-divers, or even gun collectors. Nothing is unique about the passion: Birdwatchers go on "quests" and it becomes their "lifestyle". Every climbing rock has a unique attraction to climbers. Every trail changes seasonally to interest avid hikers.

Phrases such as "truly perfect surf conditions" have no verifiable meaning. What's perfect for a beginner is not for someone else. What's a good challenge for one person is an impossible challenge for another. Another WP:PEACOCK phrase is "throughout its long history"? Who are you kidding? People have been collecting coins for thousands of years. If anything (to a historian), surfing has a quite brief history. Regardless, the observation is unnecessary and subjective. "The goals of those who practice the sport vary"? Yeah, they do. Where's "Being socially correct in Southern California", "Being a girl magnet", and "Having beach parties?" What percentage of people each as central to their lifestyle? Are there surveys? Yes? Then quote them. Phrases such as "embraces more traditional capitalistic ideals" are not just WP:PEACOCK they subjective and biased (WP:NPOV). I.e., unacceptable for Wikipedia — even if given a citation.

Examples of Wiki articles that go pretty far into "culture" but still manage to keep a reasonably encyclopedic tone are Hiking and Birdwatching. They include material of the type that is already in Surfing, but they also have the kind of information about practical documented aspects of culture that would go well in this article. Compare Surf culture's "Issues affecting surfers" with Hiking's "Environmental impact", for example.

Google books. "Surfing culture" Great references, and "limited preview" material IS citable in Wiki. Go for it.

Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 08:33, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the essay. However, twenty excellent deletion rationales are never worth an imperfect inclusion. You are quite within your rights to refuse to clean up, but that does not give you a licence to cut out if cutting makes the article worse. You offer much shaky criticism and a smattering of the vaguest solutions but your only concrete action is to gut the article. Your PoV is showing also, it is ridiculous to say that something cannot be included if it is cited, and living on a raft made of surfboards would not give you more credibility here, so forget that. Comparing an article about the culture to articles about the activity (Birdwatching) to is comparing apple pie to oranges and saying it is ok, but a little overdone. You have removed a huge swath of text -and an image- with only three objections and no mention of the jpg; I suggest you make further specific objections if you wish the text improved. I will rework the text in line with the suggestions you have given so far. You need to AGF a little, especially since the authors are only doing things that you yourself do; 'throughout its long history' is more than typical for starting articles, and only means the person could not be bothered to look up the exact date, just as you cannot be bothered to fix the article. Anarchangel (talk) 09:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The references are great. They give readers something to go on. Things they can check for themselves. Valuable.
 * What's not valuable is the personal opinion expressed in uncited essay language by SYSS Mouse. Size doesn't matter. I can compose 5,000 words of original text in an hour (that's 11 times as much as was added). That doesn't mean a single word of that 5,000 is appropriate for Wikipedia. If I had one fixed concept, possibly all of it would be unuseful.
 * I modified the first section to highlight issues with the article.
 * You, thinking it through, finding references, generally making an effort is good. SYSS Mouse dumping lots of free-association rambling isn't helpful. We shouldn't be discussing his edits, when you could invest your effort by writing better material yourself. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 11:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The same references you laud were in my first edit. I added material to the first edit. If I did not spend my time rescuing articles from editors waving their arms chidingly at the orchestra and throwing away pages from the libretto, believing they are conducting, I might have time to perfect my prose. When you have added a single word, you will be in a better position to advise me. 5k in an hour? Hah. Anarchangel (talk) 15:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Take a really good look at this list of five citations, all from Google Books. They are all for a brand that you deleted. This brand has been famous since the early 1960s, and is more famous than you would ever be if you got a book on the New York bestseller list tomorrow. It was snipped out with a snide aside and the assumption that it did not belong. -The edit. Edit summary: ("Oldest running ad"? Um. Possibly interesting. Would need a citation, though. Removes the usual BS about how something is becoming more popular all the time.) -
 * • •  •  •  •
 * Make no mistake about it. You have been and continue to make the article worse than it was with every edit. Learn your craft or go somewhere far away. Anarchangel (talk) 18:29, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Citing an unencyclopedic statement from a reference doesn't make the statement ok. There is no such thing as "truly perfect surf conditions". You accept such phraseology because you are used to hearing it. But it has no encyclopedic, provable, testable meaning. And this is an encyclopedia, not a fan site. A provable meaning would be something like: a survey taken of several experts, each independently reviewing video examples of waves, each specifying whether the example is "perfect" or not.


 * That sounds odd to you? That's because you are not dealing with objective fact. Define "perfect surf" -- definitively -- and then it can be included in an encyclopedia article. "Perfect surf" is not in "Webster's 3rd International Dictionary". Nor does any meaning of "perfect" seem vaguely related. Piano non troppo (talk) 17:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, responding to your citations here in discussion, just above. References showing that surfing is popular is NOT the same as claiming it is "becoming more popular all the time". Maybe surfing popularity has dropped dramatically in the last years. Do you have proof, one way or the other? Piano non troppo (talk) 17:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Surfing portals

 * Surf Life
 * Maine Surf Culture
 * International surfing news
 * Surfing Videos
 * Eppic Surf
 * Costa Rica Surfing
 * SurferToday - Waveriding news provider
 * Tubasos.com Puerto Rico Surfing and Bodyboarding website
 * Surf-news.net - Educational resource

Surfing blogs
The below are representative of the hundreds of surf blogs created since 2002.
 * Clidro - I should be on the beach
 * Confessions of a Novice Surfer
 * AIBK
 * Sissyfish
 * 70%
 * Extremehorizon
 * Surf California
 * surf and Travel
 * BournemouthSurfReef.com

Live surf cams

 * Australia's popular surf breaks
 * Lincolnshire UK surf webcam

Surf forecasting
Thousands of sites offer surf forecasting and reporting, from single beaches to the entire world. Among them are:
 * Coastal Watch - Australia
 * SURFcasts.com
 * Magic Seaweed
 * Storm Surf - California
 * Surfline
 * Wetsand
 * Swellinfo
 * Wind Guru

CD-ROM

 * Surfology 101

Video games about surfing

 * Kelly Slater's Pro Surfer
 * ''TransWorld Surf"
 * TransWorld Surf: Next Wave
 * California Games
 * Sunny Garcia Surfing

3D models

 * Tubing wave, using SketchUp, can be downloaded into Google Earth.
 * Surfboard, using SketchUp
 * Surfboard, available in various formats.

Anarchangel (talk) 20:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Religious aspects
The article states, rather suspiciously in my view, that Nat Young attempted to "register surfing as a religion". This reminds me of the spurious claims made as part of the Jedi census phenomenon that if enough people said they were Jedis it would become an 'official' religion, with no details on what exactly that was meant to mean. Does the Australian government maintain an official list of religions? I doubt it somehow. Second point: an academic article by Bron Taylor is mentioned, but not explicitly cited. Please can anyone who knows it add the full bibliographic information so that people can get at the original. Furthermore, there is a claim of extensive discussion of Taylor's article in surfing magazines. Which surfing magazines, when? That's two references to something in the literature without the basic details that would allow readers to follow it up. Beorhtwulf (talk) 15:03, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Surf Gangs
The section on surf gangs as it's currently written feels like a paraphrase of the source magazines rather than an encyclopedic article, and it has a pretty obvious editorial slant intended to portray surf gangs as beneficial/necessary to the maintenance of order and safety in local surf spots. When reality has a bias towards a position, it is what it is, but there's no cited empirical research to support baking that angle into the article. Instead, we have gems like:
 * "In an incident where a tourist cut off a friend of Alexander’s in a dangerous six-foot swell, the Wolfpak leader beat up the visitor for his poor decision and later reflected on the positive outcomes native enforcement could bring."

Which is highly anecdotal, uses inappropriately unsupported judgmental language, and to top it off, the source is throwing 404s. Looking at internet archive, it's a brief retrospective from a member of the Wolfpak. This is not even remotely defensible to include with that wording. The surf gang section as a whole doesn't seem to be written in a manner that expands the overarching 'surf culture' article. Each part is just kind-of there. I'd suggest just scrapping them in their present state. Until there's something better there, it seems more sensible to just mention them by name in the localism section for notability. 69.80.178.4 (talk) 00:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060516163430/http://www.groundswellsociety.org:80/pdf/12_TGS_Leadership-Pierce_Flynn.pdf to http://www.groundswellsociety.org/pdf/12_TGS_Leadership-Pierce_Flynn.pdf
 * Added tag to http://journalsonline.tandf.co.uk/(0uw5j1450a4ozi55p5irn045)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,6,7;journal,3,24;linkingpublicationresults,1:108517,1
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050310213623/http://www.hicsocial.org:80/Social2003Proceedings/James%20N.%20Ehrlich.pdf to http://www.hicsocial.org/Social2003Proceedings/James%20N.%20Ehrlich.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080716060907/http://www.clubofthewaves.com:80/culture.php to http://www.clubofthewaves.com/culture.php

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External links modified
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I have just modified 9 external links on Surf culture. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080714053913/http://webcastr.com/videos/celebs/malibu-surfers-fight-paparazzi-webcastr.html to http://www.webcastr.com/videos/celebs/malibu-surfers-fight-paparazzi-webcastr.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100920144131/http://outsideonline.com/outside/culture/200811/surfing-hawaii-1.html to http://outsideonline.com/outside/culture/200811/surfing-hawaii-1.html
 * Added tag to http://www.savethewaves.org/news/ericeira-portugal-dedicated-as-world-surfing-reserve/
 * Added tag to http://www.savethewaves.org/mission
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.groundswellsociety.org/pdf/12_TGS_Leadership-Pierce_Flynn.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060924103228/http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/film/journal/articles/big_wednesday.htm to http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/film/journal/articles/big_wednesday.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060618035440/http://facs.scripps.edu/surf/srf_thes.html to http://facs.scripps.edu/surf/srf_thes.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060618035414/http://facs.scripps.edu/surf/wavesof.html to http://facs.scripps.edu/surf/wavesof.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.hicsocial.org/Social2003Proceedings/James%20N.%20Ehrlich.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080915114314/http://www.ci.santa-cruz.ca.us/pr/parksrec/facility/surfmu.html to http://www.ci.santa-cruz.ca.us/pr/parksrec/facility/surfmu.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.clubofthewaves.com/culture.php

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External links modified
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