Talk:Survivor: Thailand/Archive 1

removed incorrect trivia
the trivia section said this was the first time Jeff hosted the reunion special. Jeff has hosted all of the reunion specials. 71.174.54.44 (talk) 01:13, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect. The first three reunions were hosted by Bryant Gumbel, the fourth by Rosie O'Donnell. Jeff may have introduced the reunions immediately before they went to commercial after announcing the winner, but he didn't host. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.44 (talk) 20:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The Shii Ann Dispute
Ok. Here we go. as you are no doubt aware in the past, there has been a long running dispute between myself adn Scorpion. He likes SHii Ann, I don't. I don't mind putting up stuff that is general common knowledge about her, Scorpion does. Scorpion did NOT mind it if people were putting up stuff that did not comply with Wikipedia standards of sourcing BUT was favorable Shii Ann whereas I did. I think that about gives you all a summary.

In January, 2006, OLN (now the VS Network) whom had already secured syndication rights to broadcast repeats of previous seasons of SURVIVOR, decided to air a SURVIVOR ALL STARS marathon during the 2006 Winter Olympics. Part of the reasoning was that because OLN normally carried NHL Ice Hockey action during this period, but the NHL goes on hiatus during the WinterOlympics so that their players can compete for the home countries in the Olympics. To go along with their ALLSTARS presentation, they polled former Survivor Players (it was never clear how many) with a list of issues like "FAVORITE WINNER", "Most Outrageous Moment",etc, etc. They were polled, the top 5 issues were then put on the OLN website. We the Survivor Fan's then had time to vote on these nominee's, with the winners being announced via skits done by Survivor PearlIslands/AllStars Rupert Boneham and Survivor Pearl Islands Jon Dalton aka "Johnny Fairplay". Awardee's where then given a Gold, Silver or Bronze medal based on the fan's vote.

Here is the direct link to part of the nominations. ]

As you can see, Survivor Thailand's Shii Ann Huang was nominated for the categories of "Biggest Mistake" as well as "Most Disliked".

Now, Note that in my previous issue, I only said she was "NOMINATED" for those two categories. I did not say whether she won or not. In truth, she did win the category of "Biggest Mistake" getting the Gold Medal. I don't believe she finished in the top 3 for "MOST DISLIKED". As a result, as I do not have the actual results available yet (Jon Dalton has told me via Myspace that would try to find the file that has the entire show so I can put it up on YouTube and use that as source). But in the meant time, accoridng to the stated Standards here at Wikipedia......


 * Neutral Point of View- I am simply going to say [b]"Shii Ann was nominated for "Biggest Mistake" for botching the merge ][/b], and I can even leave out or put in paranthesis the "Most Disliked" nomination she recieved as well. But will leave no other judgements on Shii Ann in the actual article.
 * Verification- As shown, OLN still is (even if it is now the VERSUS NETWORK) the offical home of SURVIVOR re-runs. the link provided is from their official site.  As it is a honorable, major website, it meets the VERIFICATION standard.  Note that I have never used SurvivorSucks.com discussion threads for any source here, or other Surviovr Fan pages.  That would not be enough, but I think OLN is.
 * No Original Research- Met and done, none of this is original research, it is completely citable. I think that meets that standard.

There is also a Conensus issue that has been brought up. As I am for entering in what I have shown to enter in, I think it is relative to the article. I think we all know based on his knee jerk defense of Shii Ann in the past that Scorpion is going to be against it, even though it meets all standards. So let's hearwhat the rest of you have to say.

Sincerly Whippletheduck (talk) 20:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I would like to make something very very clear here. I never watched a single episode of Survivor: Thailand or All-Stars. I only started watching after Guatemala. I do not like Shii Ann, I am not a fan, I am just trying to meet wikipedia's editing standards. The only reason I did not revert the other user is because I was convinced he was a sockpuppet of you and was going to wait an hour before reverting to avoid an edit war. After that, I just forgot. First of all, a fan poll is not notable. Don't believe me? Check any GOOD article on a film and you will not find any mention of IMDB ratings. Second of all, your suggested wording is better, but in the past everything you wrote violated the NOR and NPOV policies. Personally, I don't think it's really worth mentioning here because otherwise you would have to mention every award that everyone from Survivor was nominated for. You are still posting your POV because you seem so determined to note that she was nominated in a poll, but you aren't showing the same determination in making sure the rest of the nominees are noted. -- Scorpion0422 21:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, no offense, but you have spoken rather quickly about items that in my opinion at least, only a Survivor Fan would know. I admit that I was going to create a sockpuppet to do stuff that was against editing standards but was favorable to Shii Ann to see if you were going to uphold the same standard but since someone else did what I was going to do, I stepped back to see how you were going to react, and after 24 hours it was clear you were not going to do anything, and You have to admit it looks very hypocritical on your part.

Secondly, this is NOT a Fan Poll, the Survivor Games awards truth be told are just as valid as American Idol Results. It would be one thing if the votes were done and left on the internet. But when a reputable media organization puts the results out on TV with hosts and everything else that goes with it, that is more then a meaningfull standard. Are you going to complain that Clay Aiken should be the American Idol because he was better then Ruben Studdard and the fan voting was meaningless? WHen a reasonable production company puts a show on and does it, I think that reaches a certain standard. And I am more then willing to note others discrepencies. For example, I am leaning towards noting that Bryan Heidik/Ted Rogers were both nominated for best backstab, etc, etc. But why go thru the trouble when you were editing anything that came out against Shii Ann? I'll leave the ball in your court for now. Whippletheduck (talk) 00:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)


 * A set of skits aired between episodes of a cable re-run marathon is hardly comparable with one of the highest-rated programs in the US. How, may I ask, is a process in which, in your words, "[w]e the Survivor Fan's then had time to vote on these nominee's," different from a fan poll? To clarify, your edits violate our "Neutral Point-of-View" policy because they focus entirely on one castaway's negative nominations. As an alternative course of action, may I recommend you consider beginning an article on the awards themselves? I'm not so convinced, but if you believe that the program "reaches a certain standard," and that the nominations and awards are notable, then such an article might be a more appropriate place to start including the information, instead of cherry-picking which nominations to add to which articles. An article on the awards would almost certainly be nominated for deletion, but even then there would at least be a more definitive discussion. --Maxamegalon2000 05:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I noticed the above in the Rupert Boneham article. Any reason why we don't just do this with other SURVIVORS and let it be at that? Or is Shii Ann some special case? I ask that because the unreferenced thing there seems to be wikipedia there, this would alleviate all the problems we have with it. It also goes to the fact that we are jumping thru all these rings regarding one Survivor only and giving passes on others, which is why I don't believe Scorpions claims that he is not a Shii Ann fan....if that were true he would not fight so hard to defend her. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Whippletheduck (talk • contribs)


 * The reason that this seems to have become a "special case" is because of all the edit warring that's gone on. It would be great if, when this dispute is resolved, the parties involved could work on removing the need for tags like the one that Whippletheduck has placed above. I echo the sentiments of both Maxamegalon and Scorpion, and add that Wikipedia is not a forum for one's personal opinions. Whether anyone likes any contestant is irrelevant. I do not see how this fan poll is notable (like the IMBD example Scorpion gave), and argue against its inclusion. -- THE DARK LORD TROMBONATOR  01:29, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary break
But Like i said, it is not a Fan Poll in that sense. The nominations were determined by Former Survivor contestants from Season 1 thru Season 11 (the last season concluded before OLN would have taped the 2006 Survivor Awards). THEN they were voted on the by the Fan's. That makes it every bit as legitimate as anything seen on American Idol. Would we be having an argument about how Clay Aiken from American Idol 2 was the true winner over Ruben Studdard on the grounds that Aiken has been a more bankable recording artist? We could post the sales of his CD's, but the fact is that Ruben Studdard did win the vote and I am sure because those numbers are out there, that they would withstand scrutiny. We could make the same claim in Academy Award Nominations as well. The point is, that I admit if this was a Survivor Fan Sites poll, that would not withstand scrutiny and should not be used for citation purposes. But this is a much more reputable site, OLN (now VERSUS network) is a reputable cable channel that still holds Syndication rights to Survivor. Whippletheduck (talk) 07:14, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Then one more question: where are the results of this poll? As you say, "the numbers are out there", but none of the parties in this argument, possibly including yourself, have seen these. Before this can be included in the article, the results have to be verifiable, and at the moment they are not. "It is not a fan poll in that sense" - but in the sense that it was voted on by fans and was not officially endorsed by CBS, the producers and owners of the Survivor franchise, it is a fan poll. -- THE DARK LORD TROMBONATOR  04:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The results of the polls were revealed during the february 2006 presentation of SURVIVOR ALL STARS marathon on OLN. As the 2006 Winter Olympics were going on the same time, the parody/skits were how Rupert Boneham and Johnny Fairplay were holding mock ceremonies. They talked about the categories that were NOMINATED by former Survivors and voted on the fans. The results were revealed via BRONZE, SILVER ,and GOLD medals for the winners, which were in many categories. This show WAS officially endorsed by CBS, Survivor Producer Mark Burnett, and the owners of a the Survivor Franchise because OLN was and still is the official home of SURVIVOR in syndication. So this was not a FAN POLL like you are trying to say it is, any more then AMERICAN IDOL is a fan poll. It is just as worthy as the baseball ALL STAR starters are, which are chosen by the fans. I think it is ridiculous that we are giving this so much scrutiny, it seems like people are holding criticizing Shii Ann to a harder standard then Major League Baseball All Star Player selections are, which essentially is what happened. In any case, I am content to wait untill Johnny Fairplay is able to find the file that has the ENTIRE SURVIVOR GAMES and puts it on his Myspace account. I'll imediately copy it to my own myspace page as well as my youtube account. You can all see for yourselves Shii Ann's awarding of the Gold Medal for the category she was awarded in. But I think it is ridiculous that we are requiring that much scrutiny on this issue. I expect that when that is made available, I am going to insist that if Scorpion makes ANY edits after that, that he face immediate scrutiny and a temporary block if he tries to edit it out after that. Although I am sure he will still find some rules lawyering to keep scrutiny of Shii Ann off the site. Whippletheduck (talk) 04:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you actually read anything above? Nobody is doubting that she won the award, people just don't think it's notable for inclusion. This is a little different than American Idol because they are at least a legitimate show that gets millions of votes, whereas this was a one-night special based on an online poll. In my opinion, it's no more notable than if CBS affiliate WCBS-TV decided to hold their own Survivor games. -- Scorpion0422 11:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Scorpion0422, Maxamegalon2000, and The dark lord trombonator that the fan poll is not a notable award and should not be included. Various editors both here and on your user talk page have told you why the award is not notable.  You seem to have a bias against Shi Ann for whatever reason as your only edits regarding the OLN poll is related to the negative one about her.  You appear to have made no edits regarding the other "awards" given and all of your edits regarding Shi Ann have a negative tone, which violates a core Wikipedia policy (as noted to you previously).  To compare this fan poll to the polling for American Idol is stretching things.  American Idol's fan participation is integral to the format.  The OLN fan poll done well after the show was over and had no impact on the game.  The same reasoning is true for Major League Baseball's All Stars.  I think that consensus is to not include mention of the award unless you can provide proper citations on why the award is notable such as independent coverage of the award from a reliable source. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 17:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

For the 100th time it was not a fan poll. Survivor Alumni were given a list of awards that they planned on awarding medals. On the subjects of MOST DISLIKED (consistent with the fact that Shii Ann is not well like by most Survivor players) and WORST MOVE IN SURVIVOR HISTORY, Shii Ann was nominated in both categories. Now, the issue here is that Shii Ann was voted out of Survivor Thailand in large part BECAUSE of her botching the "Fake Merge" Twist, whether you agree with it or not, the fact is it cost her the game and she did 'botch' the move, which was in large part what I have been saying. The fact that the article on two places both cites her botching the merge means that her botching it IS INDEED notable to mention she was named to the award that she won. THe fact that she was nominated for MOST DISLIKED (even if she did not win it) is totally irrellevent to the THAILAND article, which is why I agree it should not be included. I do believe that the Poll is reliable, as it came from an OFFICIAL Survivor Broadcast partner for Survivor []. Those nominations came for Shii Ann's peers in the game of Survivor. As to the whole point about Citations, if a CBS affiliate had an official interview/poll of some kind that said something AND could be put online for citations purposes, it seems to me that would withstand the stated standards of Wikipedia, although I am sure if it was not favorable to Shii Ann, that Scorpion would still remove it anyway. As it stands, once Johnny Fairplay finds the video footage, which I will save myself as well as put on both my Youtube and Myspace accounts, since I am sure Scorp will go all out to get them removed somehow, that I hope that will be the final answer on this issue. I still think it's ridiculous that other people are held to much lighter standards and we are going thru all this over the fact she was nominated (and won) for WORST MOVE for her botching the Merge, which you concede is true. Wait for the video to be released, since that has to be the final word it appears. Whippletheduck (talk) 04:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You're still not quite following what the issues are concerning the "award". The existence of the award is not in question.  The issue is notability.  I and several other editors do not believe that it is notable because the award was not given during the season, has no official standing beyond your own connection that being a syndicate infers being to create officially sanctioned content (that is a very tenuous argument), and is a fan poll.  Waiting for video (of which, by the way, YouTube is not a reliable source) is not going to help any of those issues.  The "reference" that you listed on your last attempt to add in the "award" was a link the OLN page that very clearly states "cast your vote for each category".  That's the very definition of a fan poll.  In any case, consensus here is to not add the "award". -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 06:35, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

But on the other issues that are cited ABOVE Consensus, ie NPOV, No Original Research, Verifiability ARE met. When you look at the [], that clearly establishes OLN as the official home of SURVIVOR on cable, not the fan-driven poll that you are claiming. I am not even going into the issue about her winning or not. The fact is, Shii Ann's peers nominated her for Biggest Mistake in Survivor History BECAUSE she botched the merge. As the article makes clear that Shii Ann completely bought the merge and was the #1 reason for her elimination from the game. And if I provide the direct video (whether I post it on Youtube or stream it from Johnny Fairplay's myspace account where he said he would post it when he finds the time), if I show a video where it directly confirms what I have said, what then? What will the new excuse be? Because I have met the three major critieria's for putting in the words "For Botching the Merge, Shii Ann was nominated for the Biggest Mistake in Survivor History", where else is there to go with this. It's not that big a deal and the fact that at wikipedia, it will report that Actors whom have been nominated for Peoples Choice Awards, are we going to remove those nominations too? What about Major league Baseball or NBA All star game nominees? They were put in by 'fan polls' that you are deriding. The fact that this is not a big deal but Shii Ann supporters are making it one soley to protect her is quite telling. 71.128.69.61 (talk) 03:15, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You still aren't understanding the issue. The primary issue is one of notability.  Consensus is that the "award" is not notable.  Your arguments that her peers nominated her does not make the "award" notable because it's clearly a fan poll per the very references that you included.  To try to compare this "award" to the People's Choice Awards, MLB All-Star Game, NBA All-Star Game, or American Idol rather dubious.  Those are nationally covered, yearly events.  This was not.  As for your claim that there are "Shii Ann supporters" protecting her.  That's already been addressed by others.


 * This discussion really needs to end right here. Consensus is to not include this "award".  Until other editors participate in the discussion and consensus changes, the "award" should not be included. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 04:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) 1- This is the DISCUSSION page. I was under the impression that the point of this page was to have DISCUSSIONS on articles.
 * 2) 2- The Stated Wikipedia format requires NPOV, Verifiability, and no original research. With my above links, I establish that the addition "for botching the merge, Shii Ann was nominated "The Biggest Mistake in Survivor History".  In theory, I could add those lines and then report anyone whom edits it out for violating the Edit Warring, which Scorpion has been in complete violation of, as my last edit had the required verifiability, couldn't I?
 * 3) 3-I could follow Scorpion around and edit out and report him for violating ANYTHING that I don't consent to in order to prevent him from posting what he wants, even if it meets the other parameters, coulnd't I? The fact that he has never touched anything I have done on other posts (which include mostly LOST) My point being I can follow the example here and do the same thing, can't I?  I don't think it would be worth it, and neither do I think that what I want to post is worth all this effort to derail, which Scorp has done.Whippletheduck (talk) 02:35, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent, you can start by copyediting Bart Simpson. The last guy who stalked me didn't help much, so maybe you could chip in here and there. By the way, I only have like ten Lost pages on watch, and I've never seen you add "For SHOOTING LOCKE, Benjamin Linus was named THE BIGGEST BASTARD IN LOST HISTORY" so I've never had to revert anything. -- Scorpion 0422  02:36, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

My point is that A) I got better things to do then to follow around and edit out things that I don't like even if they meet the standards of Wikipedia, which you are in clear violation of by editing out ANYTHING not favorable to Shii ANn even when it meets the stated standards. First it was NPOV, then it was Verifiability, then Original Research ,and now consent.  And if i were to start getting everyone that hates Shii Ann to come here and agree, you would throw out a new standard to protect Shii Ann.  If Locke were nominated for the biggest bastard award by LOST Fan's in some official capacity, for example, if G4TV were to do something like a Fan Tribute show where a vote was done, that would meet scrutiny but would you be OK with it, even if you knew he knew.  It's funny because I should go to the ben linus page and edit out that he was nominated in 2007 and 2008 for Best Supporting Actor Emmy's because "he was only nominated, it does not say if he won" or that because the voting was done by his fellow peers, it should not count. If he wins for the Peoples Choice awards, I guess that won't count either, will it, since you are against Fan Polls, right? In fact, should I go thru and remove all references to the Peoples Choice Awards since if Shii Ann can't get nominated by a Fan Poll, then neither can anyone else, right??? Whippletheduck (talk) 03:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't shifted my position at all, everything you listed still very much applies, but it would be very tiresome to repeat every point over and over again. Also, there's a bit of a difference between the Survivor games and the People's Choice Awards. "People's Choice Awards" gets 7,140 Google News hits . Survivor Games gets 0 . -- Scorpion 0422  03:13, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Whippletheduck, please read Consensus and Notability before continuing this conversation. It is apparent that you may need a refresher on these two important processes, the first of which is one of the five pillars of Wikipedia.  I am also becoming concerned that your language about Shii Ann is bordering on violation of the BLP policy.  Please consider tempering your words.  Risker (talk) 03:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I have read it. I think it is Scorpion that needs to read the verifiability and no original research and NPOV. My last posting on the main article complied with all three and according to the actually direct standards of the site, those are the three that are emphasised over anything else. The fact is, Scorpion forfeited any high ground he might have claimed in the old shii ann huang page when he had the chance to show he was fair and impartial. He forfeited it there and really has no standing to make anything of this issue. But I find it interesting the way he keeps changing the rules around to fit what he wants and now we are talking about Ben Linus, a fantastic character from the show LOST. You know, he was nominated at 2008 Comic-Con for "Best Anti-Hero". Now, I don't think that is a bad thing, as Anti-Hero's are often quite fun to watch and are a testiment to the acting that goes into Ben Linus. So in truth, maybe being nominated for "Biggest Mistake In Survivor History" at least show's that the person was trying to change the game/effect the outcome, even if it did not work out. It could be said that Shii Ann was following Theodore Roosevelt's old line of "Far better to dare mighty things, then to take refuge with those poor, timid spirits that risk nothing and know nothing of victory or" words to that extent. So in a way, it's not a bad thing that Shii Ann was nominated for this category. But I KNOW Scorp won't see it that way..... Whippletheduck (talk) 00:31, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Brian Heidik merge with this article
I agree with the merger in that it appears over 90 percent of the info on the Brian Heidik page is summarized on this page. It would be good to save anything important that's not here, as part of a controversy section, or after the show section, or something. Plastikspork (talk) 02:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I would say as a Survivor Winner, Brian Heidik has earned the right to his own page. The better the player you are (Like bryan), your page should reflect. Players whom were tremendously overrated (ie, Shii Ann) should not and have had their pages removed. My two cents. Whippletheduck (talk) 22:25, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem is that there needs to be something substantial on his page that's not already here. It would be great if someone could help in that regard. Then, I agree that his page should stay. For example, many of the other winners have gone on to have other careers, or had other careers before the show.  Plastikspork (talk) 23:09, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Notability is not inherited. I know that has been the standard in the past, but I disagree with that and agree with Plastikspork here. The only non-Survivor info I found on google is about the puppy thing and the, er, softcore porn. Either of them notable? The puppy can be easily integrated into the season article if we merge, a la Richard in Borneo. -- THE DARK LORD TROMBONATOR  06:56, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Then we should condense Bryan's own page to summarize that he won the game, tell what is out there that regards him personally. This own page should remain a summary of Survivor Thailand. Whippletheduck (talk) 18:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the Heidik page should be merged here. Do we have consensus? What do we need to do to make this happen? -- Bull  Wiki  Winkle  21:30, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that the Heidik page should be merged in to Survivor: Thailand. There is nothing outside of this season of Survivor that makes the person notable. UnnotableWorldFigure (talk) 20:32, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I think all we do is redirect it, and see what happens. I don't think WP has a policy for someone "deserving" his or her own page. Plastikspork ―Œ (talk)  21:13, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * But all the other Survivor winners have their own page. Thus, I think that previous practice should continue here. 65.246.161.26 (talk) 15:35, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I say that Brain has his own page, the other survivor winners have their own page (and some non winners), he was the best player of the season and for all other reasons preveous stated Wifishark (talk) 17:14, 08 Februray (UTC)

Tribe Colors
I know for a fact that the color of the Chuay Ghan tribe is red. Here's a link to a pic of John on the CBS website. Look at the buff on his right arm. Stjimmy61892 (talk) 12:37, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what's going on in that picture, but here's one that more clearly shows his buff as orange. Sometimes camera angles or lighting can make one color appear to be another.  --  Bull  Wiki  Winkle  00:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That's weird, because (and unfortunately I can't use this as a reference anymore) on the Survivor: Thailand website (when it was up), the main "castaways" page, where it has them by tribe, Chuay Ghan was red. Also, at every message board I go to (not a reliable source but the numbers are overwhelming) and I mean EVERY message board, when they do vote-off games, Chuay Ghan is in red. But by that picture I see what you mean.Stjimmy61892 (talk) 20:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Someone for some reason went through and made Chuay Ghan an even lighter orange but I put it back to the original dark orange. MarkMc1990 (talk) 22:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

voting history
why is it that this season and all the other season separate the voting history from un-merged to merged. it would be simpler if you made the voting history into one big bar. anyone agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.198.251.170 (talk) 22:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Ratings
Why can't we include anything about the ratings for this season? I know internet fans love to hate on Thailand but the fact is is that its ratings are the fourth highest ever. If we're going to include Jeff's opinion about this season, then we should also include the facts to provide a balanced view as to how it was received by the public. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.49.60 (talk) 20:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)