Talk:Susan Polgar/Archive 2

Inaccurate edit re Grandmaster Title
This is inaccurate: being the second female Grandmaster after Nona Gaprindashvili. Polgar was the first woman to earn the Grandmaster title the conventional way by achieving three GM norms and a rating over 2500. This is a documented, historical achievement: ''In January 1991, Polgar became the first woman to earn the Grandmaster title in the conventional way – that is, by achieving three GM norms and a rating over 2500. (Nona Gaprindashvili was awarded the Grandmaster title in 1978 as a result of winning Lone Pine International 1977, but she did not make the normally required three GM norms. Maia Chiburdanidze was awarded the GM title in 1984 for beating Nona Gaprindashvili and two others in matches for the Women's World Chess Championship). Zsuzsa's younger sister Judit earned the title of Grandmaster in December 1991, at the time the youngest player of either sex to do so. In 1992, Zsuzsa won the Women's World Blitz as well as the Women's World Rapid Championship, ahead of her sisters, Chiburdanidze, Galliamova, Maric and many other top female players.''. Correcting in Lead. Ellie Dahl (talk) 13:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I think it is an important distinction that Nona G. was awarded the GM Title, but that Polgar was the first to earn it outright. It makes Polgar more than just the second woman to get the title. She is the first to have earned it. That's a fact not in dispute. I think the article should be worded to make that clear, without any detraction from Nona G.'s title. Ellie Dahl (talk) 15:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Proposed wording to clarify difference in titles: Current: ''for being the second female Grandmaster after Nona Gaprindashvili. '' Proposed: for being the first female to earn the Grandmaster title through conventional requirements, although FIDE bestowed the GM title to Nona Gaprindashvili prior to this in 1978. Discussion welcome Ellie Dahl (talk) 16:23, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian: your rewrite on the lead is much better. I didn't want to disparage Nona Gaprindashvili in any way, but didn't know how to clarify. I like the cleaner lead in, thanks! Ellie Dahl (talk) 05:08, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You're welcome; the whole NPOV editing-style takes time to get used to. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:11, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

World Cup Championship wins
Many edits are being made without the editor pointing out where the edit was made. This is rather sly and leads to confusion about where information was changed.

Regarding the edit claiming Polgar only won ONE World Championship: She won 4, the Women's Classical World Championship, Women's Blitz World Championship, Women's World Rapid Championship, and World Girls' Under 16 Championship. She is the only chess player, male or female, to win the triple crown which includes classical, rapid, and blitz world championships. I am correcting this misinformation.

Please stop vandalizing this page. It is obviously a personal problem and a vendetta. It would be most helpful if you would post proposed edits in the Talk section BEFORE making changes. Ellie Dahl (talk) 13:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry but it is you who keep vandalizing the Polgar pages. Where is the source, other than Polgar herself, for the claim that she won the triple crown which includes classical, rapid, and blitz world championships? There is no such thing as the triple crown in chess. Where is the source, other than Polgar herself, for the claim that she won the rapid, and blitz world championships and World Girls' Under 16 Championship? You have removed a lot of very well sourced material concerning controversies involving Polgar and have added in these meritless claims. Since you claim you have done a lot of research, surely you would have found sources for these claims, other than Polgar herself, if they existed. Kayokimura (talk) 14:07, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Here is your source: This is the OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the FIDE Women's World Blitz Championship:  http://womenblitz.com/en/history.html There are only 3 types of World Championships: Classical, Blitz, and Rapid. That is a triple crown. She is the only one, male or female, to have won all three. If you want to argue this point, take it up with FIDE, but please quit making your personal rantings against Polgar part of Wikipedia. Ellie Dahl (talk) 14:32, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * (ec)I've gone ahead and researched each of the changes. First, it is correct that Polgar was the second, not the first female Grandmaster. Polgar is the first to achieve Grandmaster status through tournament play, but I can't find a good cite to verify that, and I think it's fairly awkward anyway, so second is more correct.  I'll revert Ellie Dahl on that change, and check to make sure the body matches the lead.
 * Polgar, however, was not "tied" for first at 15--once I'm done with this, I'll add a citation from NYT from 1985 verifying she is was the top female player at that time.
 * I can't find information either way on the World Chess Championship titles. I'm going to have to do more research tomorrow.
 * Finally, both of you, stop attacking each other. Ellie, claiming kayokimura has a "personal problem and a vendetta", while it seems to make sense based on the username chosen, is just your supposition. Continuing to make that claim could be construed as a personal attack.  Just discuss the actual edits made, not the editor.  Kayokimura, the information was removed primarily by me, not Ellie Dahl, and that information (the lawsuit stuff) should not not be re-added per WP:BLP.  Just because the material was sourced does not mean it automatically goes into the article, because of the nature of the information and the final results of those lawsuits. We cannot and will not tar this person's image by bringing up lawsuits that were all thrown out of court. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:43, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * (after ec): I see ELlie has new sources; I'll review those in one minute after I finish the other edits. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:43, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I would appreciate it if this user would stop calling me a sock puppet just because they disagree with my edits on this article. It's degrading Ellie Dahl (talk) 14:53, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That appears to have stopped--the last time was over 24 hours ago, before I warned xyr. If it starts again, I will look into consequences. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

TRIPLE CROWN: Plenty of sources referencing Polgar's triple crown, including the USCF website http://www.chessville.com/editorials/Interviews/20Questions/PolgarS.htm http://www.uscfsales.com/product_p/dvd0010sp.htm  http://www.chess-sets-and-more.com/chess-dvds.html http://www.chess.com/eq/chess+videos/susan-polgar039s-vol-5-winning-chess-brthe-easy-way---bobby-fischer039s-most-brilliant-brinstruction

So the USCF and FIDE both recognize Polgar's triple crown. I feel those recognized chess entities carry enough weight for merit against a claim by another editor there is no proof of these achievements. Ellie Dahl (talk) 15:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I don't consider any of those to be reliable sources. Each of them is press info provided along side an advertisement for a product for sale (save the chessville, which just seems completely non-reliable). Companies don't necessarily fact check the advertisements they publish.  Post here if you find more. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:10, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if there are other sources. Maybe "Triple Crown" isn't the right term. But I think it is notable she is the only person to win all three. How about this: She is the only world champion, male or female, to win all three forms of world chess championships. That's the same information, just not with the term. Ellie Dahl (talk) 05:34, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * That would be fine; it could well be that that term was invented as advertising copy, not as a standard phrasing. A quick search on my behalf doesn't turn of the term being used anywhere outside of advertising and in a quote from Polgar herself.  I'd stick with just the factual claim that she won all three forms (listing them for clarification, if needed). Qwyrxian (talk) 05:48, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Please cite changes made
There are rapid edits being made to information, with inaccurate information being substituted, or information being disputed, reverted or removed. However, the changes made are not cited, forcing everyone else to have to read the entire article to see what is changed. I did a lot of research on this page when I edited it, but I do not have this stuff memorized and so it is not obvious when something is changed. Please make it clear what is being edited for courtesy to other editors. Thanks. Ellie Dahl (talk) 13:59, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Ellie, what are you talking about? You can go into "View History" and click on "prev" of any edit, then click chronologically thru successive edits either going forward or backward in time; the system color-codes changes made. Do I misunderstand you? Ok, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 07:30, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I spoke to Ellie by e-mail, and, in fact, xe didn't know how diffs work. She's got it now, I think. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:13, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry guys. Slowly getting the hang of Wiki. Very s-l-o-w-l-y =P Ellie Dahl (talk) 12:05, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Chess achievement list
After thinking about it more carefully, that "achievement highlight" list doesn't belong in the article. In general, lists are inferior to prose. Most of that is covered in the article already; those points that aren't, I'm not sure if they're really all that important (things like the olympiad records). Plus, of course, they're not verified. I'm copying this list here, and, if people think any of this belongs back in, find a source, then add it into the prose section.


 * Polgar became the #1 female chess player in the world at the age of 15
 * Broke the gender barrier to qualify for the Men’s World Championship Cycle (1986)
 * Earned the Men’s Grandmaster title (1991)
 * Won the U.S. Open Blitz Championship (2003)
 * Grandmaster of the Year Award (2003)
 * Winner of 4 Women’s World Championships
 * 3-time US Open Blitz Champion (2003, 2005, 2006)
 * Five time Olympic Champion with 10 overall medals (5 Gold, 4 Silver and 1 Bronze)
 * Currently holds the record for 56 consecutive Olympiad game scoring streak without a loss.
 * Never defeated in Olympiad competition.
 * Broke four world records for a simultaneous chess exhibition in 2005
 * 2006 Women’s World Chess Cup Champion

On this I had gone off the Kasparov page for format. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garry_Kasparov I am not attached to it, just went for that to add continuity to famous chess players' pages. I do think people who research sports stars like a summary of their achievements and it makes sense as a quick reference guide. Readers aren't always interested in the narrative of the star's life. Just sayin' =) Ellie Dahl (talk) 14:56, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


 * A quick suggestion, instead of Winner of 4 Women’s World Championships, use Women's World Champion (1996-1999), Women's World Blitz Champion (1992), Women's World Rapid Champion (1992), and Women's Under 16 World Championship (1981). Mateinsixtynine (talk) 18:47, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

You're right, that is much clearer. What is your opinion on this section? Good format or do you think it is redundant? Ellie Dahl (talk) 19:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I think its okay.Mateinsixtynine (talk) 19:47, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I was working off of the guidelines in WP:Prose. While that guideline does say that we can use lists, it says that we prefer prose.  None of the specific examples of "good" lists apply here.  My feeling is that a list of achievements simply isn't encyclopedic--it's too much like a sports bio, or retrospective coverage in a magazine.  Qwyrxian (talk) 21:41, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Well that makes sense. Sticking to prose Ellie Dahl (talk) 06:02, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Do you think I should edit the Kasparov page to eliminate the list format in favor of Prose as well? I thought somewhere there was a project for chess entries on Wiki, but do not know where. I'd like to work on getting the chess bios consistent, so I can then maybe get more experience cleaning up BLPs in general, outside of chess. Stop me if there are revert wars on Kasparov I should know about! Ellie Dahl (talk) 22:10, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Ellie, Project Chess is at: WikiProject Chess. Ok, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:51, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That would be an issue to take up at Talk:Gary Kasparov. I try not to edit sports bio pages, but I don't recall seeing any at all that have a bulleted list of major achievements.  Chess, of course, is different, but, such is life.  One thing I definitely think that no article should do is to duplicate information in a list format and in prose--that's giving undue weight to those specific accomplishments. The lead already serves as enough of a summary of an article as is needed.  But, I expect reasonable editors may disagree.  Since it seems like it may be controversial, you may want to consider discussing the issue before just doing it.  Qwyrxian (talk) 02:10, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Ihardlythinkso for the link to the project, and thanks Qwyrxian, will take the format up w/ Kasparov page and let the folks who have worked on that page advise Ellie Dahl (talk) 15:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Update
I kept up with the federal case against Gregory Alexander over the hacking into emails of someone in the USCF that often came up as a smear type post on the Polgar page. That case is scheduled for a plea hearing tomorrow. It doesn't really have anything to do with Susan Polgar, but that was a hot topic for troll posting, so heads up as it may draw more crazies. Hopefully not. It's probably a footnote? Ellie Dahl (talk) 03:46, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If the only source is the case itself (i.e., court documents), we should probably not add it. If there's independent coverage (newspaper, that NYT column), then we can decide based on what it says.  The article's still on my watchlist, so I'll see if anyone adds anything untoward. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:29, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 December 2011
Please correct spellingerror "Chariperson" to "Chairperson". Markus w1965 (talk) 09:12, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, done. Johnuniq (talk) 09:26, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

World Chess Federation
"World Chess Federation" was taken out of the article, stating that there is no such thing. According to FIDE there is. In The Official Laws of Chess, published by FIDE in 1989, page 7, third paragraph "The founding of FIDE, the World Chess Federation, in 1924 ... " Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 06:44, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "FIDE" means "Fédération Internationale des Échecs", which is French for "International/World Chess Federation". However, virtually no one ever calls it "World Chess Federation".  It's kind of like how the "NBA", or National Basketball Association, is technically the "United States Men's Professional Basketball League", but everyone just calls it the NBA.  I mean, if you really want, we can put something like "the World Chess Federation (FIDE)" in the article, but I think it's redundant and even a bit confusing.  ChessPlayerLev (talk) 06:52, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * There are people reading this article that won't know what FIDE is, but they can understand "World Chess Federation". Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 07:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, I have edited the sentence accordingly. I have also made the last sentence about her tenure a bit more specific.  Let me know what you think.  ChessPlayerLev (talk) 07:13, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * OK. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 14:57, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 June 2012
Please add under "Chess Career":

Webster University
Susan Polgar and the SPICE program joined Webster University in suburban St. Louis in 2012.

2dog (talk) 13:16, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

✅ Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 15:03, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Update paragraph 1 concerning National Championship Chess Teams
The SPICE program relocated from Texas Tech to Webster in 2012. The change has been made in one part of the article, but not in the opening paragraph. now says: head of the Susan Polgar Institute for Chess Excellence (SPICE) at Texas Tech University as well as the coach for the 2011 National Championship college chess team.

should say: ...(SPICE) at Webster University as well as the coach for the 2011 and 2012 National Championship college chess teams at Texas Tech University and 2012 National Championship college chess team at Webster University.

references are here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Four_of_College_Chess http://lubbockonline.com/local-news/2012-02-04/susan-polgar-makes-move-texas-tech-chess-coach-and-grand-master-leaving-st#.UzOdwahdU-M — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank Niro (talk • contribs) 03:43, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Frank Niro (talk) 21:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC) I was able to make the requested changes myself as an 'autoconfirmed' member. Thanks to those who gave me advice. Frank Niro (talk) 21:45, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Time to update the intro--five straight championships now.
Webster just won the 2015 Final Four:

Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2019
Change nave to have as it is a typo in the phrase 'She felt that she did not nave sufficient time to recuperate' Thenonameguy24 (talk) 00:02, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Jiten talkcontribs 00:15, 28 April 2019 (UTC)