Talk:Susan Wagle

COI edits?
Between July and November 2018, an IP editor, 165.201.70.2, which is a State of Kansas (government) IP address, made 47 edits to this article, with frequent errors, most lacking citations and largely CV padding. Twenty-seven were made on Monday, July 9, 2018, alone. They were made from downtown Topeka where the state capitol is located, during working days and hours, and appeared to be fluff, pro-Wagle campaign material. State of Kansas (state.ks.us)	38.9167	-95.8199 Geolocation data from DB-IP (Product: Full, 2019-5-1) IP Address    Country	        Region	City 165.201.70.2  United States 	Kansas	Topeka (Downtown) ISP Organization	Latitude Longitude State of Kansas	39.0509	 -95.6775 (West Topeka, I-70 @ Auburn Road) Interspersed with these were edits made from an SPA, Kansasusa6 (on a Tuesday)... 15:58, 8 January 2019 diff hist +89‎  Susan Wagle ‎ →‎Political career 15:55, 8 January 2019 diff hist +5‎  Susan Wagle ‎ 20:08, 28 November 2018 (Wednesday) diff hist +535‎  (a Wednesday) Susan Wagle ‎ 19:54, 28 November 2018 diff hist -1‎  Susan Wagle ‎ 16:07, 10 July (Tuesday) 2018 diff hist +14‎  Susan Wagle ‎ 20:13, 9 July (Monday) 2018 diff hist -4‎  Susan Wagle ‎ Tag: Visual edit: Switched All these edits were made between 11:06 a.m. and 3:13 p.m., CDT. ...with a final edit from the IP in February 2019 @ 9:09 CST. Shouldn't this article be protected? Activist (talk) 05:23, 17 May 2019 (UTC) "Revverting massive deletion of well-sourced and pertinent material by "I don't like it" editor. Activist (talk) 07:33, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Removal of alleged inaccurate and POV content
The section on abortion was a mixture of POV and inaccuracies. Per WP:BLP, I have made the following edits:

1. The following paragraph has been removed:


 * In 2012, Wagle and her colleagues passed the Women's Right to Know Act, which was reportedly the first pro-life law passed in Kansas. The law mandated giving women who seek late-term abortions misinformation on fetal development. It claimed (without scientific evidence) that abortions caused breast cancer, a contention disputed by the National Cancer Institute.Do Abortions Cause Breast Cancer? The shaky science behind Kansas’ House Abortion Act, Slate Magazine, Elaine Schattner, May 23, 2012. Retrieved May 16, 2019.

The many problems with this paragraph include the following: (a) The Woman's (not Women's) Right to Know Act was passed in Kansas in 1997, not 2012 (see https://www.kcur.org/post/brownback-signs-bill-adding-abortion-information-requirements#stream/0); (b) nothing signed in 2012 was the first pro-life law passed in Kansas (the 1997 law would seem to qualify as a pro-life law, and Gov. Sam Brownback signed three abortion-restricting bills in 2011; see https://www.reuters.com/article/us-abortion-kansas/kansas-governor-sam-brownback-signs-bills-restricting-abortion-idUSTRE73B7XL20110412); (c) the bill being referred to in the Slate article did not become law in 2012 (see http://www.kslegislature.org/li_2012/b2011_12/measures/sb313/); (d) I cannot find any information suggesting that the bill being referred to in the Slate article ever became law in Kansas; and (e) the Slate article does not even mention Susan Wagle.

2. The following sentence has been removed:


 * In 2019, Wagle along with other anti-choice members of the Kansas Senate led efforts to pass a resolution condemning New York's Reproductive Health Act, which allows for late-term abortions.Kansas legislators vote to condemn New York abortion law, MSN News, March 13, 2019. Retrieved May 16, 2019.

(I previously removed an irrelevant sentence that followed this sentence; it mentioned comments made by a New York legislator that did not mention Wagle.) Problems with this paragraph include the following: (a) "anti-choice" is a POV and pejorative term that does not belong in the encyclopedia; (b) punctuation problems; and (c) the cited source does not say anything about Susan Wagle's involvement in the resolution; it merely includes a picture of her with other Senate GOP leaders.

3. The following paragraph has been condensed:


 * Wagle opposed the confirmation of David Toland as Kansas Secretary of Commerce because as director of a local non-profit, he had gotten a grant years earlier to help reduce the high rate of smoking by pregnant women in Allen County, therefore reducing complications in pregnancies, and secured another grant for local health services to provide access to contraception for low income women who wanted to postpone pregnancies or avoid unintentional fertilization. The resources had come from a charitable fund posthumously named after an assassinated doctor, George Tiller, and had nothing to do with abortion. Wagle's spokesperson, Shannon Golden said that the Toland "partnership in general is concerning."In Commerce nominee’s hometown, residents take sides in bitter confirmation fight, Wichita Eagle, Jonathan Shorman and Lara Korte, March 31, 2019. Retrieved May 18, 2019.

Per WP:UNDUE, it could be argued that within the context of a nearly 30-year political career, this issue is too insignificant to be worth mentioning at all. However, I have edited the paragraph to read as follows:


 * In 2019, Wagle opposed the confirmation of David Toland as Kansas Secretary of Commerce. As director of a local non-profit, Tolan had obtained a grant from a charitable fund posthumously named after George Tiller, a murdered physician who had performed abortions. The grant funding did not relate to abortion; however, Wagle's spokesperson, Shannon Golden, called the relationship with the Tiller fund "concerning."In Commerce nominee’s hometown, residents take sides in bitter confirmation fight, Wichita Eagle, Jonathan Shorman and Lara Korte, March 31, 2019. Retrieved May 18, 2019. Toland was later confirmed. After bitter fight, Kansas senators confirm Gov. Kelly’s pick to lead commerce agency, JONATHAN SHORMAN, APRIL 01, 2019

SunCrow (talk) 05:55, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Spare us, SunCrow. Tiller, an OB/GYN was shot from inches away through his brain in May 2009, by a homicidal anti-abortion activist, assassinated by a terrorist who had been previously convicted of transporting a bomb and other offenses, as the doctor was ushering congregants to pews in his church. The assassin, Scott Roeder, who was an associate of Operation Rescue West, had gleaned information as to the doctor's whereabouts and schedule by virtue of ORW having stalked him. After threatening to kill two other ushers, he fled and was captured after having rapidly driven almost 200 miles away. On a Post-It note on his dashboard, was the cell phone # of the ORW coordinator who had been previously convicted of a firebombing of a California clinic. Tiller had been regularly vilified on-air by then-and-former-Kansas Attorney General, the now-disbarred Liberty University professor Phill Kline, on sexual harasser Bill O'Reilly's talk show, and was there termed "Tiller the Killer." Toland's unworthiness, in Wagle's eyes and action, was conclusive as to his ostensible unfitness thanks to obtaining small grants for two rural non-profits to help pregnant women quit smoking (which habit can cause miscarriages and birth defects) and to access contraceptives to prevent unplanned pregnancies which could otherwise result in abortions. Now there was nothing to keep Wagle from knowing all this about the victim, her Wichita neighbor of which she was thoroughly aware, who had vehemently spoken out about him while he was still alive, and has continued to do so. So the word is assassin, no need to find some soft euphemism for what actually happened. I Googled "George Tiller" "assassin" and got 27,600 hits. This was immediately international news. I heard about it when sitting near a TV in an airline terminal 1,000 miles away from the scene of the crime. I should also mention that as you sliced your way through the article, you have again left at least one more bare URL which you've done before at this article. When I previously requested that you cease and desist what you'd been doing, you simply denied what you'd done. I've got a life but I'll try to find time to sort through this. I've left your legitimate changes and your unnecessary tinkering intact, but please stop reverting notable, relevant information that Wikipedia readers should be able to access unimpeded. Activist (talk) 11:25, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Activist, your February 25 hissy comments seem to be arguing that the word "assassinated" should be used in connection with the death of George Tiller. While I wouldn't choose that word myself, I will acquiesce to its use here. Your other stated concern has to do with a bare URL. In response, I have run Refill on this page and can now confirm that there are no bare URLs in it. That process would have taken you about 30 seconds and undoubtedly would have involved less time and effort than you spent on your February 25 outburst tantrum  screed comments. Try to keep your hair on. SunCrow (talk) 19:28, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * P.S. I have not reverted "notable, relevant information" from the article, either. SunCrow (talk) 19:30, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Senate chamber controversy
I substantially condensed the following paragraph:
 * On May 29, 2019, nine protesters had been singing and chanting in the senate chamber. When they refused to stop, they were detained and taken to a room while the gallery was cleared. The protest had begun after the Senate began considering overriding Democratic Governor Laura Kelly's vetoes of a GOP-led tax bill. The Wichita Eagle's Jonathan Shorman wrote that journalists had been "prevented from witnessing the arrests as police escorted reporters out of the chamber." "Senate staff also sought to clear senators off the floor as well." Wagle said after she had called for a recess, police asked her staff to clear the chamber. The president of the Kansas Sunshine Coalition for Open Government called her action "unprecedented, intolerable and must not be allowed." Acting on behalf of the Kansas Press Association, Kansas Association of Broadcasters and the Kansas Institute for Government Transparency the Coalition filed a complaint with Republican Attorney General Derek Schmidt. The Coalition contended that Wagle's action violated the Kansas Constitution and the Senate's own rules.[10]

My condensed version reads as follows:
 * On May 29, 2019, nine protesters who had been singing and chanting in the senate chamber were detained and taken to a room while the gallery was cleared. Reporters who were present reported being ordered by police to depart. Wagle said after she had called for a recess, police asked her staff to clear the chamber. The Kansas Sunshine Coalition for Open Government filed a complaint with Republican Attorney General Derek Schmidt contending that Wagle's action violated the Kansas Constitution and the Senate's own rules.[10]

User:Activist reinstated the lengthier version of the paragraph. The user summary reads, "restored text providing coherent context regarding notable incident".

By way of context, the lengthier version of the paragraph is longer than the section on Wagle's 10-year career in the Kansas House of Representatives. It is also longer than the entire section on Wagle's 2020 U.S. Senate campaign. I believe it is excessively detailed and unbalanced and believe that my edits should be reinstated. In fact, I believe the paragraph should be condensed even further. SunCrow (talk) 07:30, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * By way of context, I do my best to improve the encyclopedia and devote a considerable amount of time to it. I've been editing since 2006 and have made almost 12,000 edits in the last 10 years. I'm a member of the KS Wikiproject as can be seen on my User page. When I find problems on a page, I try to clean them up, often to the detriment of other tasks for which I'm responsible in life. I've been editing this article since mid-May 2019 and have made 41 edits to it. As one can see from this Talk page, I was very disturbed to find that what appeared to be a COI IP editor had filled the article with promotional material, apparently using a state computer on work time. SunCrow began editing the article in mid-August and has made 55 edits, half of them deletions of the work of other Wikipedia editors, including my own, substituting his own judgment for theirs. On May 17, I left numerous requests regarding unsourced, though not controversial material in the article. One of those requests, ironically as it turns out, was for a source on her graduation from Wichita State University. The article's subject has lived in Wichita for 62 years and began teaching there right after her graduation in 1979. I seem to recall somewhere that she graduated cum laude but I'm not certain of that. SunCrow elected to remove that graduation info. It only took me a minute to find a source for it, one among many, so I'll restore it. https://www.wichita.edu/administration/government_relations/shockers_legislature.php Many of the edits I've made were to fix incomplete citations, of which SunCrow made many. I'm not responsible for the relative size of any section. There are 40 Senators in Kansas, elected to four-year terms in non-presidential years. There are 125 House members, elected to two-year terms. Senators in leadership have a much higher profile than House members, but I've created articles for the latter Kansas legislators. For instance, one was for a Republican former KS Senate President, Dick Bond (Kansas politician), who has been retired for 18 years. I thought he was pretty remarkable (i.e., was for 25 years, a staffer for three successive Republican congressmen in KS CD-1, before he ever ran for office himself) and Wikipedia readers deserved an article about him. I've written 94% of that article, though eight other editors have contributed as well. So here's the upshot of the situation. I think my edits to this article (and most others) are about important aspects of Wagle's public service career. If SunCrow thinks that her tenure in the KS House deserves more attention or if any other aspect of her life does so, I would welcome him to provide it. SunCrow has attacked and removed my solid edits to other articles in the past. For instance, in the Claudia Tenney article, he removed her comments about mass murders (she claimed without any basis that most of them were committed by Democrats) from a section in her article entitled, "Mass murder" https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Claudia_Tenney&diff=827244311&oldid=827217480 SunCrow writing bizarrely that it was, "not relevant to the section." He often summarizes his deletions with "trimmed," "condense," when "I don't like it" might actually be more appropriate. I try very much to edit from an NPOV, not a gender, age, ethnicity, nationality, religious, etc., -based perspective. SunCrow admittedly feels that Wikipedia should be edited from a Christian conservative viewpoint. That's his choice. If something bothers him, he seems anxious to delete it. He removed my edits to other articles about Kansas politicians.  It's a style: He just made 26 consecutive deletions to the Naturism article, (maybe he has a problem with "naughty bits") and though warned about it, repeatedly removed Ted Haggard's name from a List of evangelical Christians. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_evangelical_Christians&diff=812940278&oldid=810917508 drumming Ted out of the Wikipedia Corps. I've just spent the better part of two hours writing this response. There are other things I'd rather be doing, like editing Wikipedia articles. On his User page, Sun Crow adopts his mantra from Lewis Carroll:  "The question is, 'who is to be master?,' that's all."  That seems to be his attitude. I hope this puts SunCrow's issues with my edits to rest. Pax Activist (talk) 11:08, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * User:Activist, I'd ask that you kindly reconsider your ill-considered comments above and self-revert within the next 24 hours. First of all, none of your comments have anything at all to do with my proposed edits. Second of all, most of your comments have nothing to do with this page and should not be dealt with here. Third of all, much of what you said about me above was false. Wikipedia article talk pages are not fora for personal attacks against other editors. Regardless of whether I am the target or someone else is, I object to you using this talk page for that purpose. I am not interested in continuing the conversation here and will address you in more depth on your talk page.

SunCrow (talk) 18:11, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Something's "false?" Please feel free to correct me, here on or my talk page or whatever. Be specific. Just cut and paste what you contend are the "false" parts and I'd be glad to address them. I don't think I've gotten anything wrong at all. In the unlikely event I have, I'd be happy to apologize. I've sent you some of the diffs and I'd be happy to send more and I'll send them to your talk page or your email. I'm looking forward to your response. Please remember, you deleted much of my work on the article and when I reverted some, instead of going to my talk page, you came here to plead your case for reverting once again, and/or to canvass for support. Activist (talk) 21:32, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Activist, please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Activist#False_accusations_on_Susan_Wagle_talk_page. SunCrow (talk) 21:40, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Expand Section
There has got to be more that could be said about Wagle's 19-year state senate career. Right now, the section states that she was elected to the Senate and elected president of the Senate; it then goes on to recite two rather random incidents. (talk) 03:50, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * There was nothing "random" about those incidents, in fact the opposite was true. They clearly showed well-documented consistency in her behavior. SunCrow's edit here was unsigned but I check the Talk page history to see who left it. Activist (talk) 00:30, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Incomplete citations by SunCrow
This article has been plagued for a long time by SunCrow deleting notable material, substituting filler that makes it appear changes are less major than they appear, and he chronically fails to provide access dates for his new citations to assist other editors in sorting through his substantial deletions. It is extremely frustrating and time consuming to figure out what he's done and when he did it. Activist (talk) 23:13, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Activist, aside from the part about access dates, that is a crock. I stand by my edits to the article, which I have explained fully and clearly on this talk page. Dial down the drama. SunCrow (talk) 03:47, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Access date problem solved. Now stop trying to make this article into an attack ad against Wagle. That's not what it's for. SunCrow (talk) 04:04, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * SunCrow was blocked three weeks ago for disruptive editing. I wasn't pleased, because I finally thought he was coming around to less adversarial participation, but I expect his history caught up to him. Should he return I have no reason to believe he would not be somewhat chastened by his experience and more disposed to collegiality. Activist (talk) 00:38, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

NPOV tag - healthcare section
I've tagged this section for NPOV for several reasons. First, the length of the section is undue give the length of the article and other sections. Second, the text reads as a narrative discussing how the subject of this BLP is acting simply as an obstructionist. This isn't a section talking about the position of the politician rather how the politician obstructed the, presumably, correct actions of the governor. The section starts out with a the totally biased sentence, "Governor Laura Kelly has long tried to expand Medicaid coverage in Kansas, but Wagle has blocked it, despite what would otherwise be an easy passage into law." Finally, while not specifically a NPOV issue the prose needs serious help. This should be broken into some sort of hierachy with a topic paragraph for the section and a few supporting paragraphs each with it's own topic sentence. The extensive use of "sound bite" quotes should be avoided. The intent of the section is to summarize and the use of quotes should be generally minimized per WP:QUOTEFARM. Springee (talk)
 * Springee has recently engaged in WIKIHOUNDING me and my edits to the articles on federal and state legislators, of late starting with well-sourced and notable edits to articles about congressmen Andy Biggs (R-AZ) and Ken Buck's (R-CO), removing text about their being the only Reps in opposition to the first coronavirus bill and regarding which they have welcomed the immense media attraction and attention it has directed toward them. Then Springee moved on to stalk me at the Don Young (R-AK) article. Young is a Representative famous for his tin ear and vulgar mouth, who for the first time since I've been ever been aware of him doing so about anything, apologized for his recent "hoax" remarks about COVID-19. I've made almost 60 edits to the Don Young article in the last 8 1/2 years, and Springee's recent slashing through my edits there was the first and only time Springee has ever edited that article. Springee also claimed that I had sourced Young edits to four opinion pieces. Actually they were sourced to articles written by reporters at the Frontiersman, the regional paper where they covered the recent remarks that Young had made, also at the Anchorage Daily News, the state's largest paper, Alaska's "paper of record," and another by the Associated Press. So his contention was simply untrue on its face, and a personal attack on me. The fourth sourced text he removed in the Young article was by a University of Alaska emeritus professor of history who was invited to comment by the ADN regarding the remarks. He extensively discussed the facts, not how he felt about the Congressman's behavior. Now Springee has migrated to stalk me at KS Senate President Susan Wagle's article. I've edited this article for the last 11 months and have made 80 edits to it after another non-NPOV ideological warrior had chopped mine and many other editors' work to pieces, leaving it requiring substantial and difficult repairs. Springee's deletion of my Wagle edit was the first and only time he has edited the article. I've long been a member of the Arizona, Kansas and Alaska Wikiprojects, plus those of eight other states. Now you don't have to have a PhD in statistics to understand that the odds that Springee's deletions of my careful edits at these three articles are not simply random, are on the order of well over a million to one. Two other Wikipedia editors have contacted me in the last month to share with me that being the victims of behavior much like Springee's have caused them to cease editing, in the face of similar unwarranted attacks upon them. We are asked by Wikipedia to "assume good faith" regarding the work of other editors, but in the case of Springee, I find that to be a task of substantial magnitude. Activist (talk) 10:27, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * None of the above addresses the NPOV and general prose issues with the section in question. "Springee's deletion of my Wagle edit was the first and only time ".  This is a false accusation as I have deleted nothing from this article.  I have added a NPOV tag.  Springee (talk) 12:19, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Primary debate section added May 2020
This newly added material is both UNDUE and not written in an encyclopedic style [] (material added here []). The content says very little about Wagle herself. Narrative such as the ballroom was empty is unnecessary in an article about a candidate. The whole section seems to be in this article to suggest desperation on the part of the participants rather than anything in particular about any candidate. Nearly idntical text was added to two additional articles [], []. Perhaps the material should exist in only one place with pointers. Ping as the editor who added the material. Springee (talk) 01:18, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Ping Springee as the editor who posted to Noticeboards 181 times in his last 1,000 edits (why in the world would someone have found need to do that?). He has been stalking me for months, and, as here, has been canvassing for complaints about me. Activist (talk) 04:14, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * , WP:ABP. Please address the issues related to the edits.  Springee (talk) 12:13, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * To be clear, this edit [] does not address the above concerns. Springee (talk) 12:46, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Your rapid edits have, via conflicts you've caused, wiped out the last three responses I've written to you. The first one was very detailed and extensive. I'll write it somewhere else as time permits and post it here so I don't lose it a fourth time. Activist (talk) 13:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * What rapid fire edits are you talking about? Please include links showing where one of my edits (talk page I assume?) erased one of your comments.  Springee (talk) 14:04, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * , you made accusations against me and said that you had a reply to my concerns. I've seen that you have edited since you made the above posts.  Please address the issues here (and as it relates to the two other articles where you added the same content).  Springee (talk) 12:50, 31 May 2020 (UTC)