Talk:Sushi/Archive 2

Archive Created
The talk page was getting pretty long, so I archived it. It didn't look like there were any active discussions going on, so I just put the whole page in the archive. If anyone has any objections or would like to revive a discussion, please accept my apologies and feel free to do so. -Sarfa 17:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

"Edo-mae" definition
The history section contains this line: "In the early 19th century in Edo, the dish evolved into Edo-mae zushi, which used fish freshly caught in the Edo-mae (Edo Bay)." "Edo-mae" means "in the Edo style." I've scoured my Japanese dictionaries and have found no word for "bay" that is pronounced "mae." I'm thinking about rewriting the whole history section (it desperately needs it) and this is my starting point. Any objections? -Sarfa 21:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Edo-mae (ja:江戸前) originally means "in front of Edo Castle," and thus Tokyo bay from Shinagawa to Fukagawa, Kōtō, Tokyo.
 * 江戸前（えどまえ）とは、
 * 東京湾で取れた魚介類のこと. 元々は品川沖界隈で取れたものをいったが、のちには東京湾で取れたものすべてをいうようになった. （用例：「江戸前の魚」など）
 * 上方に対して、江戸の流儀、やり方のことをいう. （用例：「江戸前寿司」など）
 * Edo-mae zushi used fish caught in Edo-mae region of Tokyo bay, that is the origin of the word "Edo-mae nigiri zushi" as a counterpart of Kamigata style sushi such as oshizushi and chakinzushi. Jjok 00:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Kyubei Restaurant Link
I don't think that a link to Kyubei's website is necessary or permissible per External links -- the restaurant is not the subject of the article, the website does not add any information not already contained in the article, and the primary purpose of the website is to advertise/sell the restaurant. -Sarfa 00:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * One thing I put the link is since they spell Kyubey instead of Kyubei, it will help find the page easier. However, it is true that the link does not give a good reference about gunkan-maki and I do not have any objection to remove it if it looks more like advertising. Jjok 19:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your understanding. I've removed the external link. I do, however, understand your point about the spelling of the restaurant name and decided that we should probably spell the name of the restaurant as they themselves spell it, so I changed the name from "Kyubei" to "Kyubey". Although I understand that this is not standard Japanese romanization, since this is a proper name I think spelling it this way is fine. Any objections? -Sarfa 17:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I left both since many English articles and blogs use Kyubei, and this may help connect Kyubei and Kyubey. Jjok 17:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Etiquette:grade order
I copyedited the grade order to the Japanese usage. Hope you all don't mind. If you have any question, ask me. Oda Mari 08:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

On the meaning of sushi
Sushi means literally fish delicious, so the comment at the start is misleading. It is true that the sushi preparation has lead to calling sushi other stuff (like norimakisushi rolls of cucumber, for example), but sushi means fish in japanese and I think this should be mentioned at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.238.171.70 (talk)


 * 魚 means fish in Japanese. 寿司 means sushi, and so do 鮨 and 鮓, even if the latter two contain the radical "fish". Granted, 鮨 used to mean some kind of garum, but it no longer means that in 2024. - ∅  ( ∅ ), 05:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

http://homepage3.nifty.com/maryy/eng/sushi_kanji.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.238.171.70 (talk)


 * Semantic shift - ∅  ( ∅ ), 05:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I feel that the first two sentences need to be rewritten because they've gotten very awkward. This is what I'm thinking of changing things to -- let me know if anyone has any comments:

In Japanese cuisine, sushi (寿司, 鮨, 鮓, sushi?) is a food made of rice seasoned with vinegar and sugar combined with other, usually uncooked, ingredients, such as fish.

Though the original Japanese term 寿司 sushi, written in kanji, means "snack" and refers only to the rice, the word "sushi" in both modern Japanese and English has come to refer to a complete dish with rice and toppings; this is the sense used in this article.[1]

I feel that this helps clean up the sentences a bit and clears up some of the confusion surrounding the traditional vs. modern usage of the word. Any comments before I make the change? -Sarfa 16:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

According to every Japanese definition I can get my hands on, such as Koujien (the Webster/Oxford of Japan), "sushi" does not refer to only the rice, but rather simply a combination of vinegared rice and fish and/or vegetables. Basically the same as the English. This is also confirmed by my everyday grocery shopping at Japanese supermarkets. I deleted the references to sushi meaning "snack" or "only the rice". RabidNelson 06:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I know that modern Japanese does not use the word "sushi" to mean a rice snack (see my above rewrite proposal), but I was assuming that the original author (Jjok?) had knowledge about how the word was used historically that I -- someone with very limited knowledge of historical Japanese -- do not. The OA even cited a source: Barber, Kimiko;Takemura, Hiroki (2002). Sushi: Taste and Technique. DK Publishing. ISBN 0-7894-8916-3.  Unless we can verify that the cited source does not substantiate what was originally written, I think we should leave it as is (with some slight rewriting for style purposes).  What do you think? -Sarfa 18:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

At the moment it say at the start that sushi is fish and other stuff, and further on says that sushi is sushi rice and other stuff. My understanding is that it's the latter. I've eaten plenty of sushi with no fish, and I don't believe that it's 'not real sushi', so the opening is misleading. The historical meaning isn't really relevant for the beginning of the article, as it should be saying what sushi is, not what it was. I like Sarfa's version above. Scatterkeir (talk) 00:33, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The article has started by saying "vinegared rice" for a long time. You just happened to look at it just now when somebody mistakenly (or perhaps purposefully) changed it to say "raw fish".  Clueless people stopping by are always doing this.  Help keep an eye on the article, eh?  --C S (talk) 01:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * How can the Kanji for sushi mean 'snack'? The Kanji for 'su' means aged and is honorific; the Kanji for 'shi' means a person performing a job or duty. So even allowing for Japanese grammer, how could sushi mean a snack? An old cook maybe, but certainly not snack! 86.142.162.209 (talk) 14:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Shiitake makizushi
Makizushi with shiitake filling shows up on the vegetarian sections of sushi restaurant menus these days; is this traditional or something newly invented? Badagnani (talk) 19:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Soy-dashi-simmered shiitake is a popular ingredient of Futomaki roll and chirashizushi, while personally, I have never seen Hosomaki roll with shiitake as single ingredient or usage of uncooked shiitake. I briefly retrieved "しいたけ寿司", "シイタケ寿司", and "椎茸寿司". Some places serve shiitake nigiri and oshizushi? but I do not know how much popular it is.--Jjok 22:01, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

SushiChart.com external link
I think the URL http://www.sushichart.com/sushichart/ could be added to the external links

It has a list of most of the popular sushi rolls, sortable by ingredients, cooked/raw, spicy/not, fried/not

I find it useful when I am craving a certain kind of sushi ingredient, like salmon, and want to see what kinds of sushi rolls have salmon in them

What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.241.240.204 (talk) 22:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Women sushi chefs
There is a belief that women cannot make sushi because their hands are too cold or too warm or something like that. Does someone know anything about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.216.156.208 (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It sounds like folklore bunk. There wouldn't be any sushi made in the home kitchen if this were true, although of course, nigiri usually isn't home cuisine but restaurant food. The reality is that it takes many years to become a (real) sushi chef (in Japan) as an apprentice in an old fashioned hierarchy. Hours are long, and one expects severe humiliation from scolding for the slightest shortcoming. Even as a chef, it takes a lot of stamina and physical endurance to work the kitchen. Actually, that's the common notion for any traditional Japanese food establishment. It's considered too harsh work for a woman, but that doesn't stop the determined modern woman.--67.121.120.67 (talk) 05:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I should have clarified that I don't believe the thing about women and sushi was true -- just that some people believe it and I was looking for a way to mention this in the article and possibly refuting it. 220.76.15.117 (talk) 03:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't speak to the veracity of the original statement, but I have heard that the traditional ideal temperature for sushi rice is exactly skin temperature, so it's possible that there is some belief of that variety. I haven't heard of it though, and I've seen female sushi chefs (though in retrospect I guess they were mostly men).  In any case, I don't think the suppose belief or its refutation would really serve to be of any use in the article.  If someone has a source on the rice being body temperature though, that might be interesting. 24.143.66.204 (talk) 17:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I read the Japanese article and there is no mention of the bit about skin temperature in there. However, having lived in Japan and feasted on any other 2 people's share of sushi all over the country, I'd guess that the ~91F is a guideline for maximizing the already pleasurable sensation of eating.Okipatrick (talk) 19:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

VANDALISM related to Korea
I have noticed some vandalism and it is all related to Korea. For example, instead of saying "outside of Japan, it is understood as the raw fish," it said Korea. The raw fish slices were also called buglogi, which is a beef dish in Korea. REPORT VANDALISM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tabouz1 (talk • contribs) 21:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Sasazushi
There is a pic of sasazushi but no text about it. What is a sasazushi? Seems to be a variation of oshizushi which have been pressed in bamboo leaf (litteraly "small bamboo sushi"). Lacrymocéphale —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.195.19.145 (talk) 09:45, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging
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Etiquette
"Beer is usually preferred choice of drink for accompanying sushi." is both weasel-worded and not true, even according to the article in other areas. Green tea or water are the preferred choice of drink for accompanying sushi, with green tea being an overwhelming favorite. Beer is often the alcoholic drink of choice, to wit it is not sake as mentioned for an east-west comparison in this article. In either case, the choice of drink is often very limited at Japanese sushi restaurants to only those items which do pair well with the fare; that is, it is not a matter of etiquette. Okipatrick (talk) 22:03, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Kaiten Zushi
"Some kaiten sushi restaurants in Japan operate on a fixed price system, with each plate, consisting usually of two pieces of sushi, generally costing between ¥100 and ¥200." This is true, but it is worth mention that in the fixed-price kaiten zushi places in Japan (Sushirou is one such chain), there are usually 2 colors of plates to indicate whether the items on the plate are made with or without wasabi. Okipatrick (talk) 22:12, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * That might be a regional thing. I've never noticed it; but, I've seen little toothpick flags stuck into the wasabi-less pieces. Neier (talk) 13:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It must be, I guess, but I've seen it in both Kantou (Tokyo and Yokohama) and Kansai areas (spec. Kyoto). this is a photo I found online that demonstrates the concept. I only know it demonstrates the point because it's from a Sushirou like I mentioned before. Yellow plates have wasabi and white plates don't, but all plates are 105yen.  Not a big deal to me; I just thought it was more commonplace. Okipatrick (talk) 13:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Sushi for kids?
Sushi is a common fare for children in Japan. Should there be a section for this? I'm thinking of items like inari-zushi (o-inarisan) and tamago-nigiri that are usually eaten by kids, as well as that many places, especially kaiten zushi restaurants in Japan, often cater to kids with non-seafood menu items like fried chicken nuggets and fruit juices for drinks.Okipatrick (talk) 22:12, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh, just made some inari-zushi for the first time last night (my wife and I are 50). My only concern is if it isn't SPECIFICALLY sold as children's food, then it becomes more of a "well, everyone considers it childrens food, but we can't PROVE only children eat it". Much like many people here in the States consider chicken nuggets kids food, but I know adults who eat it. Does that make sense? Lloydsargent (talk) 02:06, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Over-fishing
Perhaps this is a bit of a stretch, but over-fishing of different types of sushi-grade fish (bluefin tuna being one) has caused a rapid depletion of certain types of fish species typically used in sushi. Might this be a relevant part of the article? Bradfordschultze (talk) 12:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

what is sushi?
what all is in sushi other than raw fish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.25.43.173 (talk) 22:36, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Vinegared rice, actually. So some sushi has cooked fish, or no fish at all. -iopq (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Accent in nigiri
What is the accent in nigiri and nigirizushi? In other words, please indicate the accent fall in either one, if any. -iopq (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you talk about pronunciation, both has no accent fall. Nigiri means "grip" and Nigiri-Sushi generally made from rice by gripping supporsed to be by hand (or machine today!?), and there is/are other type of Sushi, such as Oshi-Sushi (押しすし) or Oshi-Zushi (押しずし) which means compressed (or pushed) Sushi by the weight which is seldom served at Sushishop generally.--Namazu-tron (talk) 13:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The above is wrong. While nigiri does not have an accent fall, nigirizushi most certainly does. More specifically, the first one is niGIRI and the accent stays high (thus it does not have an accent fall, but the accent does raise after the first mora.) For the second one it is niGIRIzushi. If you are doing any real research, then I would advise getting several of the following references: 1) 新明解日本語アクセント辞典 2) NHK日本語発音アクセント辞典, 3) 新明解国語辞典 (第六版), 4) 大辞林 (第三版). The first one is particularly excellent. 124.214.131.55 (talk) 13:47, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * OK.　Accent in Japan or on Japanese is long story, described in アクセント. Generally no accent fall sill OK for commmunication in general.--Namazu-tron (talk) 06:07, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

How to make your own sushi
I think there should be some pointers to websites that teach people to make sushi and show them the techniques. In some parts of the world the ingredients are hard to get some you could include links to some regional stores. There is a store that services Europe called sushisushi.co.uk and one in the States like Kaomart I think users would find this useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yakduzi (talk • contribs) 08:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree. How-tos aren't really an appropriate Wikipedia topic, and advertisements for stores are even less so. Franzeska (talk) 17:15, 16 June 2009 (UTC)