Talk:Suzi Quatro/Archive 1

Edits
I made some edits to the article because it was seemingly copied from this website. The site may have copied Wikipedia, but since the info was not sourced, I removed/reworded it and sourced it anyway. Also, I wasn't able to find any info about an upcoming album and since that was from the above site as well, I've removed it. Pinkadelica (talk) 06:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Undocumented claim about session work removed
There is nothing in the Internet backing up the claim that she did any session work on Rick Derringer's All American Boy --much as I'd be impressed if she such work. See http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=ADFEAEE47819DD4BAC7120C59E3A54D9B17FFF0CD746E8AE0721425AD3FB3247801162B66EE5A7ABF6BE39B57BB0FC2EBB580FD3CCA251F6D966373C8EFEC61D&sql=10:6287gjirj6ic~T2 for the personnel for this album. For this reason, I removed the reference in the Quatro page.Arbol25 01:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Important note that suzi also has a brother Michael a very accomplished musician whom has helped in the carees of people like Alice Cooper, Ted Nugent and many others
 * Please check your spelling, provide documentation and sign your comments. Thank you.Arbol25 05:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe all articles on Wikipedia should lose language like "flop." Let's just mention the facts - and perhaps, even, in a neutral tone, as long as it is factual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.226.57.112 (talk) 05:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Fam name
I'm putting in: Her real last name is Quatro. Suzi's sister Arlene is Sherilyn Fenn's mother. Her sister Nancy was also in her bands of sisters. JBDay 02:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Who edited out her real last name? It was Quatrocchio, the parenthesi were to show that her name had been alterd by the family. While her name that she used was Quatro, her family name unaltered was Quatrocchio.JBDay 17:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * fixed with reference Julia Rossi (talk) 06:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Tricky work
Read somewhere SQ was exceptional in that she plays bass while singing lead while most lead singer/guitarists also play lead (or melody). Any references for that? Julia Rossi (talk) 05:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a few other singers around that do that; Roger Waters, John Wetton, even Sting. May not be that exceptional. --Richardrj talkemail 09:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Laura/Richard
(I'm staying anon for their privacy.) I personally know Laura Q, she's a good friend of my girlfriend's aunt. Next time I bump into her (which is probably 2-3 times a year) I'll see if I'm able to point her towards this page and see if she's willing to elaborate on some of the info on here, although I don't think she's very computer-literate. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.179.238.73 (talk) 16:21, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Birth name.
There have been edits stating her birth name is Susan Kay Quatrocchio, but the reference given is just a radio station website and is hardly authoritive. Other sites claim it is Susan Kay Quatro. Can we get a reliable site that backs up the Susan Kay Quatrocchio name, something official like a court case or other official document that gives her real name. --Dmol (talk) 08:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * PS, although this is not proof, the ratio of websites Quatrocchio to Quatro is about 600 to 7800. I strongly suspect that the longer name got mentioned somewhere and is being copied from site to site.--Dmol (talk) 08:41, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I remember a TV documentary many years ago that used the longer name. Readro (talk) 20:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not disputing that the name has been stated, but am looking for something verifiable and reliable. As I mentioned above, I think the long name has been stated, then copied ad nauseum.--Dmol (talk) 22:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Would something from her autobiography count?
 * "My grandfather, Michael Quattrocchi, emigrated to New York from Italy at the tender age of nine...the authorities took one look at his name, unspellable, unpronouncible, and told him that he was now Mike Quatro". It's in the first half-dozen pages of "Unzipped" (page 4 and 5 of my edition).
 * As often happened when people emigrated, her grandfather's name got Anglicized. Her father was born Art Quatro, and she was born Susan Kay Quatro--Almostfm (talk) 04:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Suzi's real birth name is Quatro...SQ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.108.212.252 (talk) 10:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Her real name is Quatro, her grandfather shortened it from the longer name long before her birth........Faren Short —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.28.244.129 (talk) 15:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I have readded the bit about her name. It is not unreferenced, as the paragraph states quite clearly that it is from her autobiography. It would be hard to get a better reference than that. It also states that this all happened before she was born.  It is valid info, hardly controvertial, and deserves to be there.--Dmol (talk) 09:10, 14 May 2010 (UTC)


 * You'll still have to reword. Saying "Many sources have claimed" in an article without reffing a single source is just not on. Just state the facts and ref the autobio. Wwwhatsup (talk) 16:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Errors
When editing, I wish people would check for errors as with just a brief glance I saw two inconsistencies. In the article it says "Minder" was 1980 and later says 1982 (also no link to "Dempsey and Makepeace") and says her 1979 album includes three singles - one of which is credited to 1978 in the discography section and placed before singles from her previous album (the single in question was 1979). Needlessly sloppy.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 12:06, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. "Stumblin' in" was released in November 1978, " She's inove with you" in October 1979. 195.240.16.79 (talk) 01:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Reliable source?
Is Answers.com a reliable source? --BwB (talk) 17:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

TV appearances
It's missing Newman and Baddiel in Pieces, in which Rob Newman tries to get her to sing a duet with him ["And then he kissed me... on the tits..."]. See http://www.micaelita.com/newmanandbaddiel/audio.shtml 195.58.94.172 (talk) 11:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The TV Appearances list is missing literally thousands of appearances. I am not sure what is the point in attempting it and listing just these few.........Faren Short —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.28.244.129 (talk) 15:20, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no point even attempting to list all of them, because that would breach WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Acting roles, yes, when credited, are fine, but guest appearances on chat shows etc. seem to be rarely notable; for example, I'm watching a repeat of Never Mind the Buzzcocks right now in which she appears, but then so have hundreds of other people. Some discretion needs to be exercised here. Rodhull  andemu  01:03, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes quite right. At the moment the list is purely a random few and hardly a) complete (how could it be? who on Earth would know them all) or b) the most important ones........Faren Short —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.2.4.248 (talk) 19:06, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Deleted "glam rock" because Suzi Quatro says that this is not her genre
See SUZI QUATRO - Back To The Drive Interview, question 6. Peter Loader (talk) 21:46, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

"Hey Charly" or "Hey Charley"
61.8.20.15 is right. The correct name of the single is "Hey Charly" according to the album cover of The Bolland Project - Darwin the Evolution. I was wrong to rely on the Suzi Quatro MySpace web site for the spelling. Peter Loader (talk) 21:50, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Fixed the spelling in the Suzi Quatro navbox too. Peter Loader (talk) 14:28, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Genres
Is "female cock rocker" really a genre? Ostalocutanje (talk) 10:21, 7 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Initially, only male musicians could be cock rockers. But, in his paper I Wanna Be Your Man: Suzi Quatro's musical androgyny, Philip Auslander makes the case for Quatro being a female cock rocker. See the Suzi Quatro section of the article for details and citations.
 * However, this information is not (yet) in the cock rock Wikipedia article. Peter Loader (talk) 18:06, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Playhouse Magazine
I have removed this text from the article because I could not find the reference in Quatro's autobiography, Unzipped:

"In 1975 she was voted third greatest bass player in the world in Playhouse Magazine, after Jack Bruce and Paul McCartney. [2]

2. Unzipped- Suzi Quatro, 2007"

If it is in Unzipped, please accept my apologies, put the text back into the article, and add the number of the relevant page to the reference. Thank you, Peter Loader (talk) 15:58, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Michigan Rock and Roll Legends award
The mention of the Michigan Rock and Roll Legends award was deleted from the article on the grounds of "self promotion". Though this was probably true of the original edit, it was not true of the citation which I added. (I am not now, nor ever have been, associated with the Michigan Rock and Roll Legends award).

I have reverted this deletion because: Just to make sure, I have rewritten the original contribution in my own words — Peter Loader (talk) 14:31, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that there is some third-party coverage of the Michigan Rock and Roll Legends awards, so they have a place in Wikipedia. See http://www.nilesstar.com/2012/06/05/sixth-generation-returning/, http://www.dowagiacnews.com/2011/07/17/this-is-their-time-again/, and http://www.mlive.com/entertainment/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/05/west_michigan_bands_vie_for_st.html
 * The original editor's user name made the connection with the Michigan Rock and Roll Legends quite clear and the edit was factual.

Terrible
Despite attempting some cleanup on this article over the past few days, I've come to finally conclude what a terrible state this article is in. I've twice removed "Let it Be" from her discography. This not a Suzi Quatro single - she didn't even have a solo spot on the song but was one of about 50 performers in the chorus line! Was her career in such a bad state by 1987 that this is worthy of mention - not only in the discography but also in her "Music" section (which is pretty short as it is)? I've had a look at the discographies of the actual leads on Let it Be and not one of them includes it in their discography. What a sad state of affairs the need to include it here.

Add to that, the line about a 1985 single which reads: "reached number 140 in the UK charts despite a complete lack of promotion" (!) Despite? No.140 is hardly an achievement - it's a total flop. Further, a 1987 re-release gets placed at No.87. This didn't actually happen as the UK charts from 1987 are readily available online - and this clearly didn't happen, which renders the reference "Timeline" to be completely unreliable.

With all this - and so little information regarding her significant years (ie the 1970s), this article has left me with the impression that Suzi Quatro was far less successful than I had thought.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 23:40, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Whether or not you agree with what the link says is irrelevent. It is one persons opinion about reaching #140 and is not to be taken personally. I maybe wrong but it seems you don't actually like Suzi Qutro or think very little of her career, so I ask why bother editing if you don't like her? Also whether you like it or not she did appear in the 1987 single Let It Be so yes it is still worth a mention. Thankyou. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stiarts erid (talk • contribs) 08:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * You're missing my point completely. (Whether I like Quatro is unimportant to what I'm saying) - but these additions are not only too minor to be mentioned - but are actually embarrassing to Suzi Quatro's career. Sure, her downward slump needs to be mentioned, but it seems to be overpowering to her successful period - which is the precise reason why she has an article on here.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 23:09, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The reason why other artists' wikipedia articles do not mention "Let it Be" may be because it is difficult to find a list of the "Let it Be" artists on the web — Peter Loader (talk) 20:35, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Leaving aside whether one accepts "the reference "Timeline" to be completely unreliable", I have found two more citations for Quatro's single "Let it Be". They are http://ukcharts.20m.com/number1.html#gap and http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/article/ALL-STAR-CHARITY-ALBUMS-FROM-GOOD-CAUSE-TO-THE-2812603.php#page-2. I therefore believe that it deserves to be in both the Music section and the Discography. I have put it back into the Discography, and added the citations plus an extra sentence to the Music section — Peter Loader (talk) 20:35, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not disputing the fact she sang on it. There's a link right there to the song which includes a reference to the list of artists (if you look, you'll see that it was me that actually created the Ferry Aid article!) The point I'm making is that it is not a Suzi Quatro single. It's not Ferry Aid featuring Suzi Quatro - or Suzi Quatro with Ferry Aid. The reason why other articles don't include it is because it's not one of THEIR singles either - and that's even if they sang a lead on the song (albeit a "Guest appearances" or "Collaborations" section could include it - just!). I'm going to ask this politely: do you guys know anything about editing music articles? Do you understand what a discography is? This need to include it is so baffling that I'm struggling to understand your thinking. Gloria Hunniford (an aging TV presenter who's never had a hit song in her life for crying out loud) also contributed to the song (to the same level as Quatro). Suzi Quatro's contribution to this song is totally insignificant - ie. if she wasn't on it, it would sound no different - or would make no difference to its chart placing. To put that in context, how come page 3 topless models (who sang alongside Quatro) like Suzanne Mizzi not mention it if, like you say, this is her single too? Wouldn't this article mention if she had a No.1 hit as well?--Tuzapicabit (talk) 22:52, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

"Let it Be" was performed by a charity supergroup. Though only seven artists are pictured on the front of the album cover, all of the artists/groups are listed equally, in alphabetical order, on the back cover, see http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1109963. I feel that, had there only been seven contributors to the album (instead of about fifty) it would have had less publicity and would not have sold as well. So I feel that Gloria Hunniford, Suzanne Mizzi, and Suzi Quatro can be proud of contributing backing vocals to this number one hit. It is a pity that Allmusic fails to list any of the artists and groups individually. This is probably why the single is missing from so many articles. See http://www.allmusic.com/artist/ferry-aid-mn0001746857/credits — Peter Loader (talk) 15:28, 26 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I am happy with ‎GFHandel's compromise wording for Quatro's discography — Peter Loader (talk) 15:28, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Residence
Updated place of residence to Hamburg. Essex/Great Britain is where her children lived in the common household until she sold the place; Mallorca/Spain is the couple's holiday exile. Her officially registered main residence is Hamburg in Germany. Source: http://archiv.mopo.de/archiv/2008/20080825/hamburg/szene/suzi_quatro_hamburger_sind_direkt_das_mag_ich.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.185.198.237 (talk) 14:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC) She has not sold the Essex residence...........Faren Short — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.92.123 (talk) 20:02, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Sections
This topic was split off from Talk:Suzi Quatro, above — Peter Loader (talk) 17:44, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the original Influences section's sub-section headings gave it undue weight over the Music section and that the Music section is too short. So, looking at WP:WPMAG, how about:
 * The Music section would probably benefit from subsections that divide Quatro's career by era. Maybe:
 * Early years and The Art Quatro Trio (currently missing completely).✅ — Peter Loader (talk) 12:33, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The Pleasure Seekers and Cradle (just one paragraph at the moment).✅ — Peter Loader (talk) 12:33, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Mickie Most and Quatro's unnamed band (three paragraphs at the moment).✅ — Peter Loader (talk) 12:33, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Mike Chapman and Dreamland Records (part of a paragraph at the moment).✅ — Peter Loader (talk) 12:33, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Independence (almost four paragraphs at the moment).✅ — Peter Loader (talk) 12:33, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes better. But I'm not sure about the "Unnamed band" since there's no mention of it. Perhaps you mean Solo career? This is the section however that I think needs major expansion. It should probably take up at least a third of the music section.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 12:41, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * According to Quatro's Official Fan Club Facebook page, her unnamed band consists of: "Suzi Quatro, Ray Beavis (Saxophone), Tim Smith (Guitar), Andy Dowding (Drums), Toby Gucklhorn (Trombone), Dick Hanson (Trumpet), Carl Membrino (Keyboards)". There are also numerous references to Quatro's band members in her autobiography, "Unzipped". "Solo career" would be a confusing section heading. She was also solo during the "Mike Chapman and Dreamland Records" and "Independence" sections. Please feel free to add to the sections that you believe are too short — Peter Loader (talk) 13:54, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Bass guitar playing, Notable bass guitars. See WikiProject Guitarists? Peter Loader (talk) 17:44, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * A new Live performances/Tours section.
 * A new Musical style section. Quatro has lots of genres. I feel that we should have a rule that only genres with citations should be included in this section. ✅ — Peter Loader (talk) 14:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * A new Musicianship section, covering Songwriting, ✅ — Peter Loader (talk) 15:16, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

At the same time, I feel that the text of the original Influences section is useful and should be kept. How about:
 * Changing the subsections into defined terms so that they no longer appear in the table of contents, let alone dominate it. ✅ — Peter Loader (talk) 14:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Moving any uncited information in the original to this talk page for possible future use when it has citations. ✅ — Peter Loader (talk) 14:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Renaming the Influences section as Influence (since this is more standard)? Peter Loader (talk) 17:44, 26 June 2012 (UTC) ✅ — Peter Loader (talk) 14:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * How about also having a Personnel section for the members of Quatro's unnamed band? It could include a timeline, like Alice in Chains personnel — Peter Loader (talk) 18:27, 26 June 2012 (UTC)


 * We probably need a Names section to justify Soul, Suzi (pseudonym); Susie, Little (nickname) in the Persondata information — Peter Loader (talk) 19:11, 26 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's along the lines of what I was thinking. Extending her music career section with subheadings. It needs to have more about her early years as well, so that's a good idea. As it is now, I think the influences section is just about right in length, so I'm not sure about what more information could be added, unless you have quotes or examples of how she influenced certain artists. If so, then that's fine. Look forward to seeing what changes are made, because Suzi deserves a good article. Good luck.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 06:36, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Updated Influence section. Still need to add quotes/examples to it — Peter Loader (talk) 14:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Items needing citations before they are added to the Influence section
She also inspired Chrissie Hynde, the singer for rock band The Pretenders, and The White Stripes — Peter Loader (talk) 13:02, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I see that has been added, using the This Is Your Life tv show as source. Wwwhatsup (talk) 22:03, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The This Is Your Life tv show cannot be cited directly because, as far as I know, it is very difficult to WP:verify what was said on it without accessing web content that infringes copyright. I have found one interview (with Quatro) discussing the show, http://www.emusic.com/listen/#/music-news/interview/emusic-qa-suzi-quatro/ (question "Can you recall anything that Chrissie Hynde said to you in the early days?"), but this differs a little from what is currently in the article. Can anyone find any other citations? If not I will update the article in line with the Quatro interview — Peter Loader (talk) 22:25, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Nonsense
Aside from the obvious - ie: that this is a very poor, fan-based article - some of the statements really are inane. For example, "Before Quatro's success, rock was dominated by men." D'uh! Furthermore, the genre is still dominated by men, and if the source is suggesting otherwise then it is clearly 94.13.217.249 (talk) 21:23, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking the time to comment here, however please note that you have the same editing rights and responsibilities towards this article as every other editor who has ever edited it. If you know enough about Wikipedia to quote "reliable sources. In other words: WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM. Best wishes with that. GFHandel &#9836; 21:35, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

This section requires expansion tags
Are these really helpful? They're ugly! Wouldn't the missing content be better of being detailed here, where it can be discussed?. Wwwhatsup (talk) 22:03, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree that they are ugly and the information about missing content should be here. However, I think that the summaries of the missing content should be temporarily added as a first paragraph of the sections, even though they are currently uncited, since they are not controversial and help to make sense of what is in the rest of the section. Peter Loader (talk) 22:06, 16 January 2013 (UTC)


 * No more comments received. I have summarised the missing content and so the following need extra content and/or citations:
 * After Quatro's contract with Mickie Most expired, she signed up with Mike Chapman
 * Quatro received formal training to play classical piano and percussion. She is a self-taught player of the bass and guitar. She played the bongo drums as part of her father's band, The Art Quatro Trio.
 * After Mike Chapman's Dreamland Records folded, Quatro was left without a label, and this level of success didn't continue as the 1980s progressed.
 * Genres
 * Rock
 * Hard rock
 * Pop rock
 * Garage rock — The Pleasure Seekers and Cradle
 * Country rock — Quatro covered "Desperado" by the Eagles
 * Psychedelic rock — The Pleasure Seekers' show featured an entire Sgt. Pepper/Magical Mystery Tour revue.
 * Motown sound — The Pleasure Seekers' show featured a Motown revue.
 * Musicals
 * Peter Loader (talk) 16:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Satire
How do we know that Suzy & Los Quattro is satire? "Quattro" means "four" and is spelled different from her name, as indeed is "Suzy". It could just be a five-piece band led by Suzy, unless someone can find some, ahem, rock solid support for the claim of satire.--94.13.217.249 (talk) 13:37, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Are NME articles between 1972 and 1976 a poor source for this article?
Between 1972 and 1976 the UK music newspaper New Musical Express, known as NME, was associated with gonzo journalism. Gonzo journalism is a style of journalism that is written without claims of objectivity, often including the reporter as part of the story. This is an indication of a poor source for contentious material about a living person.

Writing here in The Guardian Charles Shaar Murray, who worked at NME between 1972 and 1986, stated that NME "...relentlessly satirised even favourite musicians like Bryan Ferry - whose ludicrous clothes and fragile ego inspired us to seek endlessly for new ways to misspell his name. (The most memorable included Brain Fury, Biriyani Ferret, Byron Ferrari, Brown Furry and Brawn Fairy.)..." He also stated: "...Indicate that you might, under certain circumstances, be prepared to write a 400-word concert review of some dodgy combo and the next thing you knew another press officer would be flying you to Amsterdam, buying you a stupefyingly expensive dinner, taking you on a tour of the red light district and uncomplainingly parting with corporate wedge to buy you a wrap of overpriced cocaine. Then you'd get home, slide behind the typewriter for 15 minutes and slag the band off. Oh how we laughed!..." These are also indications of a poor source for contentious material about a living person.

So I have deleted from this article any contentious material based only on NME citations between 1972 and 1976 as well as any such citations supporting contentious material — Peter Loader (talk) 21:44, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Actor or actress?
Started a new section for the debate. Peter Loader (talk) 23:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Moved contribution from Stiarts erid (talk) into this section:

"'She is an actress not actor. A actor refers to a male whereas a actress is a female that acts. Polictical correctness would go against but this is how it has always been so please change actor to actress.'"
 * Peter Loader (talk) 23:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * It is true that an actress is a female who acts. However, the word actor refers to a person who acts regardless of gender, and "is increasingly preferred". See actor. So it is not true that an actor is necessarily male. The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines actor as "Dramatic performer..."; Collins English Dictionary defines actor as "a person who acts...". In Wikipedia there is not even a separate article for "actress". Actress redirects to the article for actor.
 * So I believe that we should continue to describe Quatro as an actor.
 * Peter Loader (talk) 11:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The consensus at wikpedia is we have actress categories, and we put females involved in acting in them. If you feel we should rename them to be "female actors" you are welcome to make such a nomination at CfD.  However you should not try to make individual articles exceptions to the established rule.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:12, 19 March 2013 (UTC)


 * There is a consensus that actress categories should exist and should be sub-categories of the equivalent actor categories. However, there is not a consensus that we put all females involved in acting into the actress categories. The editing guideline for categories states that
 * "'...A central concept used in categorising articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define [in prose, as opposed to a tabular or list form] the subject as having—such as nationality or notable profession (in the case of people),...'"
 * For a person who is referred to as an actor as well as an actress, it is "actor" that is the defining characteristic, since the word actor includes actresses, but the word actress does not include actors. So the person's article should be in the relevant "actor" category, not the "actress" one.
 * Here are several references to Quatro as an "actor":
 * http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/desert-island-discs/castaway/a4096fdf
 * http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DWOYJ7Q-VQkC&pg=PR1&dq=suzi+quatro+actor&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nslQUYGuKJGN0wWunYDQCA&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=suzi%20quatro%20actor&f=false
 * http://www.nndb.com/people/863/000062677/
 * So I believe that Quatro should be categorised as an actor, not an actress — Peter Loader (talk) 22:38, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Empowering women?
I'm removing the comment about Suzi's success empowering women. Even assuming it's true, the reference is a video interview with a DJ, hardly a reliable source - it's just his opinion. Madgenberyl (talk) 21:39, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I have put back the reference to "empowering women" because:


 * The article's section Queens of British Pop sets the context for the claim that Quatro empowered women. David Jensen is a notable radio DJ with his own Wikipedia page. His video interview was recorded by BBC TV when they selected Quatro as one of twelve Queens of British Pop (whose songs, experiences, and impact best wrote the story of the last fifty years). So this is a reliable source.


 * Another example of a reliable source is Philip Auslander's academic paper I Wanna Be Your Man: Suzi Quatro's musical androgyny. See page 2, paragraph 4 ("In the early 1970s, Suzi Quatro was unique...") and page 3, paragraph 2 ("Quatro, who characterises herself...).


 * Peter Loader (talk) 12:37, 16 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think either of the last two sensible entries justifies a statement that Quatro "empowered women." Don't get me wrong, I get what it's supposed to mean there, but I have to agree with Madgenbery. Maybe just a quote from Suzy supporting her intention to empower women as a role model, and some external citation of her influence on feminism, but claiming that she somehow shifted the balance of power in regard to sex or gender identification toward roughly on half the world's population is a wild, insubstantial, and definitely un-encyclopedic, indefensible claim. o0drogue0o 21:15, 30 April 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by O0drogue0o (talk • contribs)


 * I'm glad that it was clear what "empowered women" was supposed to mean, but I take your point that it was open to misinterpretation. So I would like to suggest changing the reason for Quatro's notability to "She is the first female bass player to become a major rock star — this success in the 1970s empowered women (at a time when rock was dominated by men)."


 * I hope that this would be less open to misinterpretation. Any comments? Peter Loader (talk) 18:14, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


 * No comments so far, so I am now adding "(at a time when rock was dominated by men)" to the relevant articles. If you can think of something better, please continue the discussion. Peter Loader (talk) 21:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Why not just state she was the first female bass player to become a major rock star and leave it at that? The further claim that this "empowered women" whatever that means, is unsubstantiated, vague, non-encyclopedic, take your pick. Madgenberyl (talk) 17:33, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Two answers to the points above: ...and two questions about the points:
 * Meaning of "empowered women": according to wiktionary the second meaning of empowered is "Abstractly, to give the confidence to do something".
 * "Unsubstantiated": Suzi Quatro gives substantiation to the claim.
 * "Vague": the claim "this success in the 1970s empowered women (at a time when rock was dominated by men)" does seems quite specific to me. In what ways could it be considered vague?
 * "Non-encyclopedic": which of the points in What Wikipedia is not are relevant? Peter Loader (talk) 20:07, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Cleaned up a bit of the article today. I've kept in the claim with a little tweaking in the structure, hope this is okay.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 09:29, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Tuzapicabit, thank you for joining this discussion. I notice that you then made a contraversial edit to Suzi... and Other Four Letter Words without waiting for other editors to read and reply to your comment. Please would you revert your edit to Suzi... and Other Four Letter Words and wait until a consensus is reached on this talk page. Many thanks — Peter Loader (talk) 10:49, 22 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Re: "I've kept in the claim with a little tweaking in the structure, hope this is okay." The changed version was:
 * "She is recognised as the first female bass player to become a major rock star and is seen to be influential in empowering women during the 1970s at a time when rock was dominated by men."
 * I have reverted the sentence back to:
 * "She is the first female bass player to become a major rock star — this success in the 1970s empowered women (at a time when rock was dominated by men)."
 * because
 * This version is more precise (either some other female bass player become a major rock star before Quatro, or they all came after her).
 * Quatro's success continues to empower women (her influence is not restricted to the 1970s, see the restored Influences section of the article).
 * I have also added a couple of citations for the sentence in the lead section (as well as explaining the word "empowered" in the Influences section) since this claim for Quatro's notability still seems to be a bit contraversial — Peter Loader (talk) 17:27, 23 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid I don't agree with your wording - it reads a bit jarringly, but I'll leave it. I don't really agree with its inclusion at all since it seems to be based on opinion. However, I do take issue to you reverting the Influences section since my reasons were clear. The section is too long with headlines for everyone - it gives undue weight over her entire musical career section. There's no need for an individual biography of everyone - since they have their own articles should anyone want to know more. In fact, that you have to explain who they are is almost like indicating they're not very well known. Also some of the proof given that they were actually influenced by Quatro is tenuous. Please do not put it back without further discussion. I'm also a bit concerned with this "empowering women" nonsense being splashed all over her album articles as well. So in no way were my edits to that album controversial - they were entirely correct.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 00:32, 24 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The new topic Talk:Suzi Quatro has been split off from this topic — Peter Loader (talk) 17:44, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, one point at a time. Three editors including myself have objected to the empowering women comment. So why keep adding it back? What does it add to the article? What do you mean by the statement? It's vague in the sense that the meaning is unclear. Are you stating that if Suzi Quatro hadn't played bass, other women would not have had the confidence to do so? Or simply that as the first successful female bass player (was she?), Quatro was a strong positive influence for other female musicians? Put that way, I have no objection to it. As worded, it has problems. Madgenberyl (talk) 18:49, 29 June 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, enough people have said the statement is nonsense. As for the second reference? Since when did a DJ (David Jenson for God's sake) become a speaker for Women's empowerment? The claim is removed - and so is the "at a time when rock was dominated by men - well, last time I looked, it is still dominated by men. --Tuzapicabit (talk) 18:03, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes rock is still dominated by men, and the David Jenson's reference to empowering women is not precise enough or understandable enough to be included in the lead. Neither is Philip Auslander's reference to the need for a viable template for women's on-going participation in rock. Also, it would not be appropriate to quote, in the lead, that Quatro saw herself as "kicking down the male door in rock and roll" even though this is both precise and understandable.

But I feel that we should not "throw out the baby with the bathwater". So, having read the wording used to define the term a "lasting contribution" resulting in a societal or cultural change (in WikiProject Women's History) I have rephrased the claim as:
 * "She is the first female bass player to become a major rock star. This broke a barrier to women's participation in rock music."

If anyone disagrees, please continue the discussion here, otherwise I will replace the other Wikipedia references to Quatro empowering women with this new wording — Peter Loader (talk) 19:46, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * There are no comments so far, so I have started using the "This broke a barrier to women's participation in rock music." text to describe Quatro's notability in other articles. I am also describing the background for her notability in "Background" sections of articles about her singles and albums. See Rolling Stone (Suzi Quatro song) for the first example of these changes — Peter Loader (talk) 12:38, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * What are you doing? Why are you mentioning Quatro's notability in her singles and albums pages? Those articles should be establishing the notability of the song. This information is unimportant there. Do you think that every Beatles song article has a whole section about why the Beatles are notable? Please can you familiarise yourself with the standards for song and album articles before you go any further. Jeez!--Tuzapicabit (talk) 18:25, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I did look at the relevant standards, but will look again and reply — Peter Loader (talk) 21:21, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Replies to the points raised above (based on Wikipedia standards):
 * "Why are you mentioning Quatro's notability in her singles and albums pages?
 * According to WP:AUDIENCE "...It is possible that the reader knows nothing about the subject: the article needs to explain the subject fully." and according to WP:BETTER, editors should ask themselves "Does the article make sense if the reader gets to it as a random page? (Special:Random)" to help test whether they are setting enough context. Readers who know nothing about a Quatro single or album would probably benefit from knowing why she is notable.


 * "Those articles should be establishing the notability of the song."
 * Articles about singles and albums must show that they have notability as recordings. There is no need to meet the more stringent requirements for the notability of their songs. However, if any of the songs in the recording is notable in its own right, readers would probably benefit from knowing why this is so.


 * "This information is unimportant there."
 * According to WP:NNC, "The criteria applied to article content are not the same as those applied to article creation. The notability guidelines do not apply to article or list content (with the exception that some lists restrict inclusion to notable items or people)."
 * All of Quatro's singles that currently have their own articles either helped to make her a rock star ("Rolling Stone" — number one in Portugal) or helped to make her a major rock star ("Can the Can", "48 Crash", "Devil Gate Drive", and "Stumblin' In" — international successes). Their contribution to Quatro being the first female bass player to become a major rock star is probably important to readers who know nothing about the single.
 * Quatro's early rock album articles also contributed to her being the first female bass player to become a major rock star. So Quatro's notability is probably important to their readers.
 * It is unusual for a rock star to also be the star of a musical, so Quatro's notability is probably an important part of the article about the album Annie Get Your Gun - 1986 London Cast.
 * According to MOS:ALBUM, "It should not be assumed that the reader is familiar with the artist's history and/or previously released albums. If it's necessary to put these items into context for the reader to further his understanding of later content in the article, a background section is suggested." So Quatro's notability is probably important for her later rock album articles too.

Are there any other concerns? Peter Loader (talk) 21:35, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


 * OK. I appreciate the work you've done there, but you've still not quite got it I'm afraid. To establish for instance WP:AUDIENCE you would simply say "...is a song by American rock singer Suzi Quatro." This shows to a random reader who and what she is - at that point, that's all you need to know. The link will provide the rest if they want to know further. After that you need to talk about the song - because that's what the article is specifically about. Certainly, where it comes in relation to her career and what happened around it and what happened immediately after is important - but it has to be somewhere related to the song itself. What you're doing however is having an entire section on why Suzi Quatro herself (no mention of the song in question) is important.


 * You almost have it with WP:Background, but again, not quite right for a few reasons. You're basically copying and pasting text from her main page to this with nothing else added. The section you have put would perhaps be OK if the entire article was huge and this establishes the importance of the song, but it doesn't do that. It says why the singer herself is important and then stops dead. You need about another five paragraphs on the song to justify what you've put. For instance This will show you a song article I did which conveys information mostly about the song but also conveys to a casual reader that this came at a successful time for the group. In other words, you can include the information you have - but it has to be amongst the rest of the info for the song, and how this song continued to build on what you're claiming. And certainly how can you say this about the song: "When Quatro emerged in 1973..." in the Rolling Stone (Suzi Quatro song) article when the song itself was released in 1972? Anyway, I'm done.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 23:58, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I only made minor adjustments when copying and pasting text, of which I am the sole contributor, about Quatro's notability between articles. I should have paid more attention to setting the context when merging this new text into the articles. I have updated the Background section of the Rolling Stone (Suzi Quatro song) article to relate the information about Quatro's notability to the single itself and will do something similar for the rest of the articles, unless anyone can suggest a better way of doing it — Peter Loader (talk) 15:25, 15 July 2012 (UTC)


 * This edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=48_Crash&diff=prev&oldid=503131927 to the article about the single 48 Crash:
 * deleted the text "Quatro is the first female bass player to become a major rock star. This broke a barrier to women's participation in rock music.",
 * deleted a comment requesting discussion on this talk page,
 * and deleted two associated citations.
 * The edit summary was "That statement is heavily opinionated and untrue. Grace Slick and Janis Joplin were rock singers long before Quatro became famous- she was, however, the first female rock star to play an instrument."
 * This good faith edit also broke two of the remaining citations in the article. I have reverted it, and invited the editor to join this discussion — Peter Loader (talk) 12:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No further comments, so I am now continuing updates to Background sections of Quatro's recordings — Peter Loader (talk) 18:20, 30 July 2012 (UTC)


 * This edit removed the words "This broke a barrier to women's participation in rock music." from the lead of the article. The edit had the summary "only one person has supported this in the TP discussion, whereas 3 (4 if you include me) have expressed concern". I have put the text back on the grounds that the wording was agreed here on the talk page (after much debate) and the editor did not explicitly specify any concerns — Peter Loader (talk) 21:13, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Having gone through the album sections I fail to see why some albums have all this padding about suzi's empowerment to women and being a major rock star. It has already been mentioned in the main article which is what most people are going to read first so I dont see why it needs to be repeated several times under her albums which were released years after her first single or would be when there were a lot of women in charts. Also she may have been a major rock star in the 1970s but her career was declining in the 1980's and chart wise pretty non existant in the 1990's. I think it may be alright to mention it on her first album but no need after that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stiarts erid (talk • contribs) 14:30, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Detroit HoF Appearance
It's a nitpick, but in the Personal section it talks about her getting injured in 2012 and cancelling the Detroit HoF appearance, and earlier it has her playing it in 2013. Both entries mention her sister and the 30 years, and are not too well sourced. Some clean up? Wwwhatsup (talk) 09:41, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Lack of success
During the mid 1980s and 1990s Suzi had virtually no chart success anywhere, this is a fact but seems I can not put this so called radical change. Just look at the discography if you need proof, plus she had a low period in the 1970s chart wise. The article doesnt mention any of this and should — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skiwalkko (talk • contribs) 23:05, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * These changes could be contentious WP:BLP information and so should not be unreferenced or poorly referenced. "Just look at the discography if you need proof" counts as unreferenced — Peter Loader (talk) 20:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but it's mentioned in her CD booklets that her charting career dried up in the early 1980's and the discography proves that. The references are in the booklets from Main Attraction, Rock Hard and Unreleased Emotion not to mention the others. It's actually defending her saying about still touring and releasing albums despite not being in the charts. In 1983, Quatro couldn't release her UNreleased Emotion album because no record company wanted to know after having several under performing singles and albums, thats mentioned in her booklet too from Unreleased Emotion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skiwalkko (talk • contribs) 21:44, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The addition of "During 1976 Quatro would take a year out of recording and married Len Tuckey." is contentious because Quatro recorded Aggro-Phobia that year, see page 2 of the album booklet of its 7Ts Records re-release. Also, the changes are still unreferenced, plus two citations have been lost. So I reverted the edits — Peter Loader (talk) 21:45, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Musical Style
My sense is that the Musical Style section is overblown. It could be condensed into a paragraph, and perhaps folded into another section? Wwwhatsup (talk) 07:08, 27 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I feel that it is important to have a all of the genre stuff in its own Musical Style section so as to avoid genre wars in the main info box. In view of the current disagreements about whether glam rock is one of Quatro's genres, it would probably be helpful to expand the section with an paragraph or two covering "glam rock era or glam rock genre". Similarly cock rock is rather contraversial and so I feel that its description is about the right length. However, the other less-contraversial genres would probably be better covered by a sentence and reference per genre in a single paragraph (until someone disagrees with them). What do other editors think about this suggestion? Peter Loader (talk) 21:00, 27 December 2013 (UTC)


 * No comments on this suggestion, so starting to implement it — Peter Loader (talk) 21:04, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Quattrocchi -> Quatro
The assertion that was "Quattrocchi was shortened by the immigration authorities because they found it too difficult to pronounce" may be sourced, but its source is at best a family legend with no basis in reality. It is simply not true that names were changed at Ellis Island. See the detailed discussion at and. --Pfold (talk) 18:41, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Suzi Quatro Chart Placings

Hello, you reverted one of my edits and claimed it was vandalism it was not. In Suzi Quatro's A Girl From Detroit album it clearly states that shhad a UK #54 hit with I bit off more than I could chew and a #52 hit with I May be too young. Please allow my edit to remain. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yf,jgfjyghfuydtmh (talk • contribs) 17:29, 11 November 2014 (UTC)