Talk:Swahili language/Archive 1

Orthography
What character set is used for writing Swahili?
 * Normally the Latin alphabet (minus "q" and "x", iirc), but people have written it in the Arabic alphabet once upon a time (there's some examples of this in the House of Wonders, Zanzibar). &mdash; Matt Crypto 23:15, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Important Difference
I read that an important difference between Swahili and the rest of the Bantus is that it is not tonal. This was one of the argument for the Creole language interpretation, which is denied by the current redaction. -- Error 03:13 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Not all Bantu languages are tonal. This doesn't seem like a particularly strong argument for (or against) the creole idea. --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 18:03, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Kiswahili is the mother tongue of the swahili people who inhabit a 1500 km. sretch of the East African coast from southern Somalia to northen Mozambique. There is two distinct kiswahili dialects in Somalia : - CHIMWINI or "KIBARAWA" spoken in Brava city (Southern Somalia) - KIBAJUNI (Kitikuu derived from the words : Iti=land or country (in Kibaju- ni) and kuu=great).

The BAJUNI are the original inhabitant of Kisimayu city and the main coastal villages : -Nchoni -Fumatini -Istambuli -Yamani -Kudhayi(now renamed KULMIS) -Burgavo (located on the ancient SHUNGUWAYA) -Ras Kiyamboni and the BAJUN ISLANDS : Koyama, Ngumi , Chovaye , Chula , Darkasi , Chandraa and numerous smaller (Fuma, Kandhaiwu , ...) in southern Somalia. In Kenya the BAJUNI are inhabitant of Lamu archipelago and part of the adjoying mainland and Mombasa. The BAJUNI identify themself by the island of origine therefore we have : - Wa-Koyama (of Koyama island) - Wa-Chovaye (of Chovaye island0 - Wa-Chula (of Chula island) - Wa-Amu(of Lamu archipelago) - Wa-Siyu (of Siyu) - Wa-Pate (of Pate) - Wa-Mandha (of Manha) - Wa-Gedeni (of Gedi) - Wa-Mvita (of Mombasa) KIBAJUNI DIALECT is the major dialect spoken on coast from south Somalia to Mombasa with several "SUBDIALECTS" named after the place : -Ki-Amu -Ki-Siyu = (Ki-fundi) -Ki-Mvita -Ki-Pate -Ki-Vumbu                                                Thanks                                                Yusuf Sheikh                                                baajuuni@hotmail.com

Preferred name of language
I've read in the last couple of years that the preferred names for bantu languages, even in English, is with their correct noun class prefix. In the case of Swahili, that would be "ki-". But I've heard conflicting suggestions as to how it's capitalized. I think it's either "KiSwahili" or "kiSwahili" but not "Kiswahili" as is written in this article. &mdash; Hippietrail 09:09, 31 May 2004 (UTC)


 * There is a tirade on the name on Kiswahili, that should be moved elsewhere. --Error 01:48, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * We should place the article at the most common name in the English language, which is "Swahili"; that's the usual practice on Wikipedia.  I've reproduced the discussion below, and redirected Kiswahili here; perhaps we should merge this into the article, but it needs reediting for NPOV. &mdash; Matt 23:22, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * No, 'Kiswahili' redirects back to the 'Swahili' article, which needs to be fixed, especially since the first line of that article tells one to 'see Kiswahili'. Quill 03:51, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * p.s. I agree with you, in English, the article on the Swahili language should be called simply 'Swahili'. Simply put: Speakers of English say 'French', 'English', 'Swahili'....We do not say 'Of the French', 'Of the English', or 'Of the Swahili' (unless, of course, we're speaking of the French, of the English...oh, heck, you get the picture!).  Quill 04:00, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Kiswahili or Swahili
Much has been said about calling the Swahili language as Kiswahili, but foreigners be they English or French or Arabs do not call other peoples' languages as they should be called by the native speakers of those languages. We, therefore, hear many people referring to the Swahili language as Kiswahili language, though this is linguistically wrong. The Swahili people call their language "Kiswahili", because grammatically language falls under Ki-class, and therefore they would say: Lugha ya Kiswahili for Swahili language, and lugha ya Kiingereza for English language, and lugha ya Kiarabu for Arabic language and so on and so forth.

On the other hand, Arabs call their language "al-'Arabiyyah", and call the Swahili language "as-Sawaahiliyyah", and English as "al-Ingliziyyah". Also, the English people call their language "English", Kiswahili as "Swahili" and al-'Arabiyyah as Arabic, and this is true for all other people all over the world, who use a certain system of grammar for their different languages.

As we would not expect the Swahili people to call the English language "lugha ya English", we therefore, would not expect the English people to call the Swahili language as "the Kiswahili language" and the Arabic language as "Al-Arabia language, as this would go against their system of grammar.

Salim Elhaj

http://www.geocities.com/salimelhaj/swahili.htm

http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/profiles/profs04.htm


 * 1) REDIRECT Swahili language

Kiswahili

Kiswahili, again
I couldn't take it; I attempted an article. It needs checking, though. Kiswahili Quill 05:00, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Kiswahili versus Swahili talk page
I'm about to merge Kiswahili versus Swahili into this article. This seems to be the consensus on the talk page, which I will copy here:

Tried to smooth the Swahili discussion by creating this stub. I'm now tired and need help with format, maybe headings, copyedit?

Also, if someone could check the Arabic grammar; I took it from another user's comments but don't know if it's correct. Quill 04:53, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Do we really need a separate article that covers two things: 1) The meaning of a Swahili word; 2) The assertion that it's "Swahili", and not "Kiswahili" for the correct English naming of the article? I think that 2) should be contained in the Swahili language article, and that 1) should be in the Swahili Wikitionary. Also, the content of this discussion needs to be more NPOV; some people think that Kiswahili is the more correct name in the English language. &mdash; Matt 05:03, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, a move-and-merge would be fine with me. As to neutrality, well, I disagree to this extent:  being neutral does not mean that every theory has to be written as if true.  Do some people think that Kiswahili is the more correct name?  Sure!  Are they right?  Well, I've never heard any evidence of it.  Both my dictionaries and all my grammar books say 'Swahili' or 'Swahili-English'; 'English-Swahili'.  In East Africa, an English speaker would ask 'Do you speak Swahili?'  No 'ki' about it.


 * You say, "being neutral does not mean that every theory has to be written as if true". I agree, however, to be NPOV, we have to present every theory without saying that any of them is true; we can't take sides on things that people dispute. &mdash; Matt 06:05, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I have only ever heard of the language referred to as 'Kiswahili' in the States in African-American enclaves, and no one has ever given me a good reason for it. People may say "I've been told that this is correct" and be entirely serious and truthful, but WHY is it correct?  What about that usage makes it the right one in English? Quill 05:27, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * We don't need to argue as to which is correct, but we should try and present how others would argue this. I am, of course, assuming that there are people who would argue for "Kiswahili" over "Swahili" as the correct English name. This seems to be the case from the comment at Talk:Swahili language. &mdash; Matt 06:05, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Hmm...yes, you seem to have misunderstood me. I agree with you; when I said 'WHY is it correct....' I meant 'what argument would they  make to persuade someone that that was correct'?  I can't possibly discuss how (in what manner) people would argue that the use of 'kiswahili' was correct in this context; I don't have the foggiest.  People come to believe all sorts of things.  For example, someone told me today that all ginger cats are male.  They're not.  A LOT of people believe that all ginger cats are male.  They're ALL wrong.  They believe it because it's been repeated so often. One could not write a credible article without indicating that the popular notion that all ginger cats are male is not correct.
 * Without further information, all I can do is say 'some people say that 'Kiswahili' is the correct way to refer to the language'. What people?  Why? If it's a theory, fine, state the theory and the wherefores--but if it's just repeated because that's the current fashion...?    Quill 10:18, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Ah, a rhetorical "Why", sorry; maybe it is just a widespread mistake, we should try and find out. A Google search turned up a couple of sites referring to "Swahili (more properly, Kiswahili)" or "Swahili (or Kiswahili, which is the proper way to identify the language)" . I'm sure I've heard that "Kiswahili" is more "proper" before, as well (even though I don't buy it); perhaps we could query User:Hippietrail to see what it was he read? &mdash; Matt 11:10, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I would bet money that you have heard that "Kiswahili" is more "proper"; I know I have....I'd like to explore this some more, but I want it to be clear that I'm not setting myself up as an expert in linguistics or in Swahili; I'm neither. Quill 21:14, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The content of the article is self-contradictory. First it states that English names for languages differ from the name used by the native speakers of the language, then it claims that we should not say "Kiswahili" because that would be grammatically wrong in Swahili, not in English. So what if the native speakers of Swahili don't call their language "Kiswahili"?


 * WHAT?! No, I really think you misread the article. Native speakers of Swahili do call their language 'Kiswahili', and 'Kiswahili' is gramatically wrong in English.  And yes, it does matter--what do you mean 'so what'?  African languages are not inferior to Europeans ones; they should be 'handled' the same way. Quill 21:14, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Right, I misunderstood your argument. But I neither said nor in any way implied that African languages are inferior to European languages. That is nothing but an ad hominem attack. I agree that African languages should be handled the same way that European languages are. As the article pointed out at great length, the English language does not care how the native speakers of various European languages call their language. Thus it should not care how the native speakers of African languages call their own language either.


 * I simply cannot figure out what you mean when you say that "Kiswahili" is grammatically wrong in English. Burschik 14:27, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * There's no need to get defensive; I'm not attacking you. I'm saying that in my opinion political correctness, which I believe this is, denigrates.
 * I'm not sure I can explain any better. How about this:  when I'm speaking in English, I do not say 'I speak le francais', I say "I speak French".  If I were speaking in french I would say, "Je parle francais" and refer to the language as 'le francais'. Quill 22:03, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I find it difficult to see your point. Are you saying (1) "Kiswahili" is politically correct, and (2) political correctness denigrates the speakers of "Swahili"? Do you also object to the terms "Sinti" and "Roma"? Do you also object to the use of "Beijing" instead of "Peking"? And what happened to the argument that "Kiswahili" is ungrammatical in English? Regards, Burschik 10:05, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think the whole thing should be cut down to one or two sentences stating, in effect, that some people call the language "Kiswahili" and why they do it. Burschik 14:09, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * That makes sense, but I agree with Matt that this should probably be explored further. It's not a minute issue.  Quill 21:14, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I do think it is a minute issue. Now if the speakers of "Swahili" were mortally offended by the fact that their language is called this or that in English, then it would be an issue. Burschik 14:27, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't know about 'mortally offended', but some do object.Quill 22:03, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Really? Why should they object? Burschik 10:05, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think a sentence like "Swahili (or Kiswahili)" in Swahili language suffices for this; I'm unconvinced there's a need for a separate article. &mdash; Matt 14:38, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree. Burschik 14:55, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * It sounds like most people are OK with a merger. I'm going to go ahead and do it, giving it a heading near the top of Swahili language, unless there are any objections. Lesgles 15:42, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

How many noun classes?
I asked a question on Talk:Grammatical gender which I'll summarize here. This page claims that Swahili has 15 noun classes. I can only find 8 or perhaps 9 at the most (WA, VI, MI, MA, N, U, PA, MU, and KU). About the only way I can come up with 15 noun classes is by counting plurals separately, which seems silly (the same line of reasoning would say that Latin had 6 genders). Am I missing something? --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 15:43, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Nope, that's it. In the Bantuist linguistic tradition, singular and plural classes are most often counted separately (the pairings of them are called 'genders' though). The reason for this is that there is not always a one-to-one mappings from singular forms onto plural forms. Class 1 en 2 pair up, and so do 3 and 4, up to 9 and 10, buth class 11 takes its plural from class 10; and additionally, there are forms which can take plurals from several classes. &mdash; mark &#9998; 21:49, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Other
"In structure and vocabulary Swahili is distinctly Bantu and shares far more culturally and lingustically with other Bantu languages and peoples than it does with Arabic, Persian, Indian etc. In fact, it is estimated that the proportion of non-African language loanwords in Swahili is comparable to the proportion of French, Latin, and Greek loanwords in the English language." If I recall correctly from Mario Pei's book "History of the English Language," only about 25% of English vocabulary is of Anglo-Saxon origin. If this analogy is then used, it would imply that Sabaki subgroup vocabulary constitutes a mere 25% of Swahili's total vocabulary, and would render the language of the first sentence misleading in terms of its maintainance of a strong linguistic linkage with fellow Bantu languages. If someone would clear this up it would be much appreciated. (By the way, aside from this, the article is great). D.E. Cottrell 03:05, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Interesting question. One has to keep in mind that the proportion of loan-words is different in different strata of the vocabulary. For example, in the case of English, even though only about a third of the vocabulary is Germanic, it's the more commonly used third of the vocabulary -- the Romance words tend to be less common and more learned. This means that while it may be that only a third of the actual words are Germanic, in a given passage of text, there may be very few non-Germanic words. (For example, the previous sentence has about 6 non-Germanic words out of 30, or about 80% Germanic content, rather than the 25-33% given for the vocabulary as a whole.) Also, the function words -- pronouns, prepositions -- are Germanic; this is a class of words that is generally not readily borrowed from one language to another.
 * Turning to Swahili, the same situation may be the case. I have no specific information on the different strata of the Swahili vocabulary, but I could well believe that more of the common words are Bantu, and more of the learned words are Arabic. --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 15:11, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)