Talk:Swallows and Amazons series

(old)
I replaced my removed paragraph. If you want to rewrite it, do so, but don't just remove useful information. Varitek 04:30, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * They meet on a fictional lake

I was always led to believe it was Windermere. Isn't it? 66.92.237.111 05:18, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I think Windermere was the model, but it's never explicity stated. Mackensen (talk) 05:40, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * The lake is fictional, combining elements of Windermere, Coniston Water (most obviously Wild Cat Island is Piel Island, but others too), and Ransome's imagination: even those elements based on real places are sometimes modified for fictional purposes, the entrance to the secret harbour being rather easy in reality (though no less exciting to visit) . StephenDawson 07:34, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Small Sailing Boats
It's a common misunderstanding that the books are about sailing especially dingy sailing. Actually this is not really true. Let's consider them:


 * Swallows and Amazons - Dingy Sailing
 * Swallowdale          - No Sailing
 * Peter Duck           - Large Boat
 * Winter Holiday       - No Sailing
 * Coot Club            - Motor Boats and Larger Boats
 * Pigeon Post          - No Sailing
 * We Didn't Mean To Go To Sea - Large Boat
 * Secret Water         - Dingy Sailing
 * The Big Six          - Houseboats
 * Missee Lee           - Large Boat
 * The Picts And The Martyrs - Sailing in one chapter.
 * Great Northern?      - Large Boat

Only 2 books "Swallows and Amazons" and "Secret Water" have any significant amount of small boat sailing.

jmd 05:43, 6 October 2005 (UTC)


 * That is one way of looking at it, but I don't think it tells the whole story. Here is my analysis


 * Swallows and Amazons - Dingy Sailing, clearly the main focus
 * Swallowdale          - Dingy Sailing ant start and end, much of the middle about fixing Swallow
 * Peter Duck           - Large Boat, but Swallow plays a major part
 * Winter Holiday       - No Sailing, but it is often mentioned
 * Coot Club            - Motor Boats and Larger Boats, as well as Titmouse and Flash.
 * Pigeon Post          - Sailing isn't central, but there is some. It's set more as a prelude to sailing.
 * We Didn't Mean To Go To Sea - Large Boat
 * Secret Water         - Dingy Sailing
 * The Big Six          - A large mix of boats, including dingies
 * Missee Lee           - Large Boat, minor part by smaller boats
 * The Picts And The Martyrs - Not much actual dingy sailing, but it is a key central theme.
 * Great Northern?      - Large Boat


 * Looking at it this way, small sailing boats are central to (but not the sole focus of) 7 of the books, and if we expand from small boats to any boats that becomes 11. That being said, I don't particularly like that sentance anyway, so I will change it. --Apyule 08:11, 6 October 2005 (UTC)


 * OK. Fair enough. jmd 02:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Swallows and Amazons books template
I have created a template called Template:SwallowsandAmazonsbooks which looks like this;

This can be put at the bottom of each page about the individual books. I have also used it on the page for Peter Duck which I started. Also, should this page be split into 'Swallows and Amazons (novel)' and 'Swallows and Amazons (series)'? JP Godfrey 16:08, 14 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me (I just tweaked the template so all titles are in italic). I'd say move this page to Swallows and Amazons (series) and make Swallows and Amazons the article about the first book. --Bob Mellish 19:02, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Good work with the template. The move is a good idea, but I'd leave Swallows and Amazons as a disambiguation page and create a Swallows and Amazons (series) and a Swallows and Amazons (book) page. --Apyule 04:08, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Is there a standard 'Wiki-way' of making a disambiguation page for a novel which shares it's name with a series? Thanks for the tweaking Bob. I just copied another template so wasn't sure how the mark-up worked. It looks much better now. JP Godfrey 15:20, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't know of a wiki-way for that, but then, I can't think of another series that is know by the name of one of its units, so to speak. Personally, I think making a disambiguation page is silly, since the phrase is used only for two extremely related things - I would vote to use Swallows and Amazons for an article about the series, and Swallows and Amazons (novel) (not book) for the book. - DavidWBrooks 15:48, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The only series that's named after a part of it that I can think of is Star Wars. This page is about the series, but with a link to a disambiguation page at the top of the page.  I think the disambiguation page is only used because it also links to the Strategic Defense Initiative. A New Hope is also mentioned and linked to in the opening paragraph. JP Godfrey 09:11, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * How about going with Bob's idea in having Swallows and Amazons about the book, but with a disambiguation notice at the top of the page redirecting to Swallows and Amazons (series)? JP Godfrey 22:33, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Having Swallows and Amazons be about the book would be fine with me. I don't think a disamiguation notice is necessary - just saying in the intro paragraph something along the lines of It is the first book in a Swallows and Amazons (series)|series of novels ... and introduce the link to the series article that way.  - DavidWBrooks 02:27, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, if no-one objects over the next couple of days, I'll move this page to "Swallows and Amazons (series)" and create a page at "Swallows and Amazons" about the first book of the series. --G Rutter 10:21, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I have been gradually adding the books in the series and my plan was to do something like that eventually. We certainly need a separate article for the book. Whether it be Swallows and Amazons (series) and/or Swallows and Amazon (novel) is of less importance to me. If we use both Swallows and Amazons (novel) and Swallows and Amazons (series), we will need a disambiguation page.

Dabbler 10:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Or choose one of ...(series) or (novel) (I suggest the series) to redirect Swallows and Amazons to and put a disambiguation link in it. The template can link direct to the right ones.

-- Martinp 03:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Done- although the article on the book isn't very good yet! --G Rutter 08:51, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Strongly support the seperation of the book and series articles. personally I think it makes more sense having the series as Swallows and Amazons (series) so that all the book articles in the series are the same, i.e. not with (novel) after the title. Suicidalhamster 18:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Bridget's age
I feel that this article rather over estimates the disparity in Bridget's age between books. It says that she goes from 1 to 6, but in fact she has her second birthday during the first book. By the timeline given, that would only put her age out by one year, not so great an error. Jefrir (talk) 01:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Is her age even mentioned in Secret Water? I'm re-reading it just now, so I'll check 109.155.152.51 (talk) 19:36, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Taqui Altounyan obituary.
An dead external link has just been removed. A substitute from The Independent is here, if anyone cares to add it. I didn't put it in because I'm a little doubtful about WP:TOPIC. --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:35, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Vicky -> Bridget
If there is any evidence that Bridget's name was actually Bridget in the first book, post it here. If you can't, we have to assume that her name was retconned in the second book, and that her likelyness is only a cover (not a terribly convincing one, I might add). --91.55.104.163 (talk) 13:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree - her birthday cake in book 1 even has 'Victoria' written on it. 109.155.152.51 (talk) 19:34, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Interior illustrations
Several of the books articles have cover images that advertise illustrations but only the first {infobox book} identifies an illustrator --a complicated situation.

(minutes later) I see, this series article includes section Swallows and Amazons series. If it's reliable the information simply needs incorporation in the books articles. Offhand it appears to me that the first three books and the unfinished one may need particular attention but the other nine can be handled identically, probably with one {infobox} field and one line of text.

One WorldCat library record for the first U.S. edition of Pigeon Post --1936, the inaugural Carnegie Medal-winning sixth book-- identifies Mary Shepard as the illustrator. It seems unlikely that a British illustrator would illustrate the U.S. edition only, so I have listed her in the Pigeon Post {infobox book} without visible comment. Lippincott would commission a British illustrator for the U.S. edition. Did Ransome illustrate all of the books in the style (childish?) we describe here for the third book:
 * Ransome decided that he would personally illustrate the third book Peter Duck. As this book was supposedly based on information supplied by the children themselves, Ransome drew the pictures as though done by the characters. These illustrations were so popular that Ransome illustrated the remainder of his books himself.

Are the Ransome illustrations (for all except #2 and unfinished, i infer) still used in the most recent UK editions? If not, how long did they survive?

The U.S. Library of Congress Catalog is down, so it is not convenient to check its holdings for Arthur Ransome systematically. It does appear to hold first UK and US editions of Pigeon Post. --catalog records inaccessible now. --P64 (talk) 20:13, 14 August 2012 (UTC) --P64 (talk) 20:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * You can search the old version of the Library of Congress catalog at http://catalog2.loc.gov/. I wish they would fix the new version. —Diiscool (talk) 20:19, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I wrote this in two stages using green color and strikeout for stage two, after edit conflict. --P64 (talk) 20:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Evidently LC holds first UK and US edition copies of all volumes #1-12. Its catalog records for the first five do identify illustrators and agree with what we say about the UK editions. About the US editions:
 * #1 illus. Helene Carter
 * #2 illus. Helene Carter
 * #3 illus. mainly by themselves, with additions by Helene Carter
 * #4 illus. Helene Carter
 * #5 illus. by the author and Helene Carter
 * Oddly, just now when that WorldCat record lists Mary Shepard, the LC catalog records no longer reliably identify illustrators!
 * #6, no comment for either edition
 * #7-12 no illustrations or maps credited to anyone except the author but he is credited only for a few editions; the majority of records say nothing
 * #1 1968 UK ed. illus. by the author
 * Lippincott is the US publisher for #1-6, where I stopped looking.
 * Records inconsistently specify plates ("ill. plates" or "ill. pl.") but I have no confidence in that.
 * --P64 (talk) 20:57, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Promising source
Here is part of a review of a promising source:. "Reading Series Fiction: From Arthur Ransome to Gene Kemp. By Victor Watson. New York: RoutledgeFalmer, 2000. Reviewed by David Rudd." Children's Literature Association Quarterly 26:3 (Fall 2001), pp. 154–155. Excerpt at jhu.edu. Retrieved 2012-10-03.

According to Rudd, the reviewer, "The world [that?] Watson primarily explores is Arthur Ransome's (he originally wanted to write an entire book on this author), which is given three chapters;" --P64 (talk) 00:33, 4 October 2012 (UTC)