Talk:Swastika origin theories

Context
Instead of jumping right to the conclusions people draw from it, the article should start with what it is. A book? Found where, when? What's it about?

It's quite likely this information is in the article somewhere, but it needs to be very near the beginning for dense people like myself. NickelShoe 23:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I added a bit of information about the Han dynasty tomb finds, a Wikipedia link, and a little clarification of what the comet drawings convey. It might be a good idea to change the title of this article to =Han Dynasty Silk Comet Atlas=./? Bkobres 20:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know...What is it called in the references? NickelShoe 22:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The reference so far is from the swastika entry and is the same--no dynasty. I could change that as I'm responsible for using the abbreviated term anyway.  It probably doesn't make much difference except that the title would be more descriptive and easier to find for someone searching --Han dynasty--. Bkobres 23:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You could always throw up a link at Han Dynasty. I'd definitely stick with a title attested for in references rather than coming up with one ourselves, if possible.


 * If it's not an official title, don't capitalize words that wouldn't be capitalized in normal use.(Naming conventions (capitalization)) NickelShoe 00:20, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and replaced "Han silk comet atlas" with "Han Dynasty silk comet atlas" as the article name to conform with China related articles. Corrected all links. Bkobres 20:59, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Pics
I don't know...it seems like the article is kind of crowded with pictures...is there any way we can trim it down without stripping out too much information? Could we provide an exernal link for people interested in more pics, something like that? On a small screen, this article must be difficult to read. NickelShoe 21:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it will be difficult to convey information about motifs without a fairly liberal use of images. It actually seems easier to read if a browser is narrowed to the width of the top image, which is ~500 pixels. Bkobres 19:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Currently this is one of the best illustrations of using the web to compare shapes of objects, particularly comets and yes asteroids that were observed in ancient times. I have collected many triangle stones made by Native Americans and even stones carved in the shape of Ida, Gaspra, Eros, and most importantly Apophis or as the Japanese call it "Itokawa".

The triangle shaped comet is proably a multi-bodied comet with several large chunks in the tail. I recognise Eros on the Native American carving with the bird. Eros shows up in the Bear Claw.

I recently found a painting of Apophis and it was acknowleged by Apollo 9 astronaut Russel Schwigart. I therefore have found this to be an exmemplary use of images on the web.

Book of Silk? Mawangdui Silk Texts?
There are some articles on Wikipedia talking about the same "book".

Book of Silk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawangdui#Books

Please see the discussion as well.

Mawangdui Silk Texts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawangdui_Silk_Texts

References and Clean up
It looks like this could use some of the references put inline, find some stuff for the fact tags, and maybe some copyedit work as well. Maybe make this a bit more general of an article? the swastika motif in nature? or tightly focused on comets? Just a few thoughts. --Rocksanddirt 17:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyvio deleted
A huge portion of this article infringed on http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/bronze.html so I deleted the infringing portions. I'm going to replace some of the images as stuff that old is out of copyright. &larr;BenB4 19:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Comets and the Bronze Age Collapse is my article and is on my website. I started this wiki article and, as I think is stated above, all of the images are either in the public domain, created by me, or redrawn by me. Why don't you read the notes or view the history before such massive editing? Bkobres 20:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I am sorry, but I can see no notes or edit comments in the history which indicate any release of license. Your page implies that the Society for Interdisciplinary Studies holds the copyright.  Has the text in question been released under a GFDL-compatible license? &larr;BenB4 20:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I retained control of copyright and there are additional illustrations and text in this version. The information was always meant to encourage research and no payment was received from SIS. The entire article has been on my website since 1994 so there is no need for concern. Bkobres 20:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't want to be a pain in the ass, but the SIS web site has a copyright notice and sells reprints instead of hosting them for free. Is there a notation in the Workshop volume saying that the works are released?  It's not uncommon for there to be no payment for scholarly publications. &larr;BenB4 20:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If you never explicitly released the rights to SIS in a contract or by accepting their terms, you could just put a note on your site that the work is released to the public domain, under the GFDL, or under a Creative Commons license such as CC-BY-SA (not an NC variant, though.) &larr;BenB4 20:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The whole article is not used for this Wikipedia entry and I think that I varied some of the text anyway. Since I am the original author and the one who put it on Wikipedia with the knowledge that it would be free for anyone to use the information--Where is the legal risk to Wikipedia? Bkobres 21:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If SIS has a claim to the copyright, they could sue Wikipedia for providing a text for free that they sell. You could have easily assigned the rights to them by submitting the text under terms and conditions that said you do, even without signing anything, as long as you were sent a copy before you sent your manuscript.  If you think you didn't, you can place a release into the public domain or under GFDL or CC-BY-* on your site, then the risk and potential liability would transfer to you. &larr;BenB4 21:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Since the article has been available for free on my website since 1994 and by contributing the text that I did means that I agreed to license that contribution under the GFDL, I think that any legal liability is already mine. Bkobres 22:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure, but I know for sure nobody would have a problem if you could annotate your page. &larr;BenB4 23:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll try to get that done soon--I don't use remote server access so it may be Monday before I get back to the library. Current copyright law is overly influenced by corporate profit seeking and generally stifling to the exchange of information. I'm effectively limited to putting material online that was published prior to 1923, although many of these publications have been forgotten and are physically deteriorating due to the acid paper they were printed on. It's a shame.  Bkobres 00:42, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As you are clearly the author, I will put the article back the way I found it, but please do remember to annotate that page with a release. &larr;BenB4 00:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment
For the symbols that represent owl tracks, what exactly does that have to do with comets? &larr;BenB4 19:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * this article talks about ancient representations of comets and about mythological birds. What they have to do with one another, or with the swastika, is entirely unclear, and relies purely on Kobres' 1992 book. This is why the article is tagged as WP:OR. As long as no academic review of the book is presented, this probably shouldn't even be on Wikipedia. dab (𒁳) 07:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * even worse, the article doesn't summarize a book, but a five page article published in an obscure catastrophism journal. Clearly fails notability. dab (𒁳) 07:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

From a discussion at the Conflict of interest/Noticeboard
This article is being discussed at WP:COIN. The following is from a posting that Bob Kobres made there. EdJohnston 16:16, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The main theme of Comets and the swastika motif is predicated on the fact that the artifact mentioned has a drawing that most people would now describe as a swastika, labeled as a long tailed pheasant star (di-xing). Clearly there was an association between this particular view of a comet and a fowl! All that I have added (and published many years ago) to what is obvious from the Chinese artifact is the supposition that the association of swastika like drawing with a bird is due to the bird foot-print like aspect of the comet depiction. I learned recently that this relationship between the swastika or fyl-fot motif and a fowls foot was actually suggested over one hundred years ago:


 * http://books.google.com/books?id=85oYAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA109&dq=svastika+bird+foot+print&as_brr=1#PPA122,M1


 *  Fyl-fot. The Teutonic name of the Svastika or cross with feet, Greek gammadion or "crooked" sign (see Count G. D'Alviella, Migration des Symboles, 1892). This sign, found from Peru to Cornwall, is called Fuel-fut, Fujel-fot, and Fyl-fot, among Aryans, and identified with Thor's hammer, being found on dolmens in Cornwall, and, as a charm against thunder, on bells in Yorkshire (see Bells). It appears to signify the "fowl's foot" (German Vogel "bird"), a "flying foot," alluding to the whirl of the Svastika wheel (see Svastika) It was everywhere a sacred emblem. The Aryan root Plu signifies "to fly." The symbol is also the croix cramponee, or "crook cross," of heralds.
 * Faiths of Man: A Cyclopædia of Religions by James George Roche Forlong - 1906 vol.II pp 121-122

As for my published speculation of a connection between the swastika motif and the Astika parva in the Mahabharata--this too has been supposed earlier:


 * http://books.google.com/books?id=QvQeAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA145&dq=astika+bird+foot&as_brr=1#PPA329,M1


 *  It was in Hindu mythology the symbol of the two united female and male Suastikas (卍) (卐) the female marking the sun going northward at the winter and the male its going southward at the summer solstice while the eight rayed star includes both movements The name Su astika embodies that of the god Astika or rather as he is also called in the Mahabharata Ashtaka the eighth 2 
 * Primitive Traditional History: The Primitive History and Chronology of India ... By James Francis Katherinus Hewitt

Garuda, which is the main focus of the Astika parva, is not a terrestrial bird:


 * http://books.google.com/books?id=Wy0MAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA52&dq=garuda+talons+celestials&as_brr=1


 *  11 13 The greatly powerful king of birds the slayer of enemies rose on his wings and stayed in the sky over the heads of the celestials with their lord Indra who showered on him double edged swords iron maces sharp lances bright arrows and discuses of the form of the sun Being thus attacked from every side 14 The king of birds fought the great battle without being weary for a moment and the greatly powerful son of Vinata blazing in the sky attacked the celestials on all sides by his wings and breast and scattered them in all directions 15 Mangled by the talons and the beaks of Garuda copious blood began to flow from the bodies of the celestials 
 * A Prose English Translation of the Mahabharata: (tr. Literally from the ... By Manmathanatha Datta, Manmatha Nath Dutt

Postulating recent prior encounters with extraterrestrial debris is now well within the scope of contemporary scientific inquiry:
 * http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0706977104v1
 * A carbon-rich black layer, dating to {approx}12.9 ka, has been previously identified at {approx}50 Clovis-age sites across North America and appears contemporaneous with the abrupt onset of Younger Dryas (YD) cooling. The in situ bones of extinct Pleistocene megafauna, along with Clovis tool assemblages, occur below this black layer but not within or above it. Causes for the extinctions, YD cooling, and termination of Clovis culture have long been controversial. In this paper, we provide evidence for an extraterrestrial (ET) impact event at {cong}12.9 ka, which we hypothesize caused abrupt environmental changes that contributed to YD cooling, major ecological reorganization, broad-scale extinctions, and rapid human behavioral shifts at the end of the Clovis Period.

I discussed how this particular paper came to be published by SIS here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Swastika#Comets

I do not think that it is fair to casually label a publication that has been active since 1974 unacceptable simply because you are not familiar with the subject matter that group is interested in. As for the WP article under discussion, I think that there is certainly more evidence to support the notion that the swastika motif as an important religious symbol had more to do with its frequent appearance in the ancient sky than with basket weaving, which is suggested without support in the main swastika article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika Bkobres 22:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The "fowl's foot" is debunked at fylfot. The "male and female Sauastika" is debunked at Sauwastika. This reflects scholarship of the early 1900s at best. Now let us forget that Bkobres is pushing his own hypothesis for a moment, and just take Kobres (1992) as a published paper for better or worse. About two thirds of this article deal with this paper alone. This is clearly UNDUE for an idiosyncratic suggestion, regardless of the quality of "Society for Interdisciplinary Studies". The paper was written 15 years ago. Has it been endorsed by anyone? Has anyone ever refered to the idea in print since? Or has this hypothesis been buried as soon as the "Chronology and Catastrophism Workshop" closed its gates? If we can cite some mainstream publication endorsing, or even mentioning the idea, the case might look different. dab (𒁳) 16:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * hallelujah, I found a lone reference to the article: R. Schoch, Voices of the Rocks : A Scientist Looks at Catastrophes and Ancient Civilizations, Harmony (1999), mentions a connection of birds and comets on p. 177f. (but no swastikas), and lists Kobres' website under "back matter" without further comment. This seems to more or less sum up the reception of the idea over the past 15 years. --dab (𒁳) 16:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The swastika drawing on the Chinese silk is labeled Di-Xing. Di (as Sagan published) is the name of a long tailed pheasant: dí 'di' (ancient name for long-tailed pheasant)翟鸡 see: Reeves's pheasant White-crowned long-tailed pheasant. Also, who and when were the ideas mentioned above debunked? The Chinese silk was found in 1978. Bkobres 17:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * the point is that this would all be pure OR if it were not for your 1992 SIS article. --dab (𒁳) 17:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Dieter, you finally got me aggravated enough to look for the late paleolithic bird that is carved from mammoth tusk and sports a swastika right where the foot of a bird should be placed on such a carving. I recalled seeing this years ago but could not remember where--It was Joseph Campbell's The Flight of the Wild Gander, pp. 147, 1969 edition. The book was republished in 2004 and Google Book Search happens to make that section with a drawing of the artifact available for preview. The carving is on page 117 of this edition. Bkobres 21:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately Google Books won't show me that page. Do you know this fact because you have a paper copy of the book? EdJohnston 23:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I do have the 1969 edition at the library, Ed, but the link still works for me at home. It will open to page 116--you will need to scroll down or use the navigation arrows to get to the next page. Bkobres 23:46, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * well, that's excellent. now we have a source associating the swastika with birds. No comets though. Bkobres, you really need to review WP:SYN. I am happy to present all possible and impossible opinions regarding swastika origins, but you have to avoid cobbling them together into an argument that isn't present in any of your sources. How about we rename this article to Swastika origin theories, and let it have a "comets" and a "birds" section? --dab (𒁳) 08:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

COIN discussion (continued)
I share the concern of Dbachmann that the connection between swastikas and comets is not well enough attested by mainstream authorities. I'm fine with the reference to Joseph Campbell. But his page (which I did manage to open, finally) is not much evidence for the comet theory. It would be worth considering DB's idea for a Swastika origin theories article, but unless I'm missing something I don't know where that article would get its sources for the 'comet' section. EdJohnston 09:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * to be precise, nothing of this is "accepted" anywhere, but some of the hypotheses have sufficient notability to be mentioned regardless. The connection of sastikas and comets was notably made by Carl Sagan himself. The connection of swastikas and birds can now be traced to Joseph Campbell. What I am objecting to is Bkobres' synthesis of associating swastikas and comets and birds. His essay to that effect should at best be mentioned in a single sentence, not account for two thirds of the article. --dab (𒁳) 09:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There is a Whipple + comet mention here. - cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1643. Usable? -- maxrspct  ping me  11:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * this is the Sagan suggestion, which can certainly be discussed for whatever it is worth. The point is that (to the best of my knowledge) Sagan never talked about bird feet in this context. --dab (𒁳) 12:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Let me reiterate: (A) The Chinese silk that had been buried for over 2000 years and was unearthed in 1978 depicts 29 comets. (B) The 29th comet, that is swastika like, is labeled on that silk: Di-Xing, which in Chinese means long-tailed pheasant bird star. (C) The part of a bird's anatomy that the drawing most resembles is its foot. (D) Schaafsma (Morphy, H., 1989) states on page on page 261: "The tracks of animals are not a general feature of Pueblo art. Rather a selected few are chosen for graphic depiction because of the special roles the animals in question played in religious ideology and ritual. The whole animal may be signified by a track, although in certain cases the track (or paw in the case of bears) is imbued with specific ritual powers." She elaborates further on the next page (262): "Whereas in many cases the representation of an animal of bird track may be an abbreviated statement for the whole creature, and as well, an attempt to secure its supernatural aid, investigation shows that in Pueblo ritual the roadrunner track itself as well as the bird alone are both items of importance." (E) I have further pointed out a ~10,000 year old carving of a bird that has a swastika like carving where one would expect the foot of that bird to be located. There is thus a direct proven relationship between a swastika like motif and a comet called Di-Xing (long-tailed pheasant star) by the Chinese (A+B). The question then becomes: Is there published information that will allow that a bird could be represented by the form of its foot and has a swastika like motif been used to represent a bird's foot? (C+D+E) Make a strong case for that.

And Dieter you need to inform Dover that [http://books.google.com/books?id=rZPrsyyW90kC&pg=PA226&dq=swastika+bird&num=100&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=8CQ5y3wltM7LLVq4rop53fHgxLUMs. Ball's information on page 226 about the swastika] has been "debunked." Actually the direction a jetting comet would appear to spin, as viewed from Earth while within or nearly within the comet's orbit, would reverse as it came within Earth's orbit and then again as it moved outside of Earth's orbit. If Earth was way outside the comet's orbit (on the opposite side of the sun) when the comet came to perihelion, the comet would remain small and there would be no reversal of rotation. Thus the direction of spin and whether the comet was getting bigger or smaller would be important to observe for a comet that returned to perihelion at around a 3.3 year interval. Since the orbit of Earth and Taurid objects are not coplanar, whether the comet appeared north or south of the sun's path would also be significant to people trying to predict what degree of grief from encountering comet debris (meteor storms) might be headed their way. There would also be a head-first tail-first view of the comet at sunrise and sunset that can explain why some cultures gave the same entity both a male and female persona.

This seems most pertinent to the current discussion: An encyclopedia torn apart

Last Updated: 12:01am BST 11/10/2007

Tireless volunteer effort has turned Wikipedia into the world's most popular information source. But increasingly acrimonious arguments about what it should include threaten to split the online encyclopedia in two. Ian Douglas reports

There's a war going on behind the pages of Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia written and edited by its readers.

Submission of new articles is slowing to a trickle where in previous years it was flood, and the discussion pages are increasingly filled with arguments and cryptic references to policy documents. The rise of the deletionists is threatening the hitherto peaceful growth of the world's most popular information source.

. . . Bkobres 19:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * A while back I posted some arguments on Comet Encke talkpage about the swastika connection. The sources i put up may well be of relevence here. -- maxrspct  ping me  21:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

you still fail to point out how any of this is at all relevant. There are valid discussions of what may or may not belong on Wikipedia. original synthesis most definitely does not. The fact that your article was not nuked on sight is ample proof that deletionism is nothing like rampant on Wikipedia yet. dab (𒁳) 11:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding notability--I ran across this cite (with my name misspelled) from a graduate student in Brazil. The translation is via Babelfish:
 * http://www.faac.unesp.br/posgraduacao/design/dissertacoes/pdf/jacqueline.pdf
 * STATE UNIVERSITY SÃO PAULO COLLEGE OF ARCHITECTURE, ARTS And COMMUNICATION PROGRAM OF PÓS-GRADUAÇÃO IN APPEARED DESIGN JACQUELINE CONÇALVES FERNANDES OF I CASTRATE DESIGN WITH IDENTITY: BY MEANS OF STUDIES SÓCIO-CULTURAIS, 2007


 * In picture 10, we see the joined classic example in many cultures in different times, the suástica or gamada cross. The suástica call celta hardly is resembled to a suástica. In the Seniority, the suástica was used wide for the go-Aryans, hititas, celtas and Greeks, amongst others. In special, the suástica one was a symbol sacro of the hinduísmo and buddhism. It occurs in other Asian, européias, African cultures and aboriginal Americans. Adolf Hitler, used the suástica, due to its appearance as a gear, supposedly to symbolize its intention of an Industrial Revolution in Germany. The theory that justifies this onipresença of the signal arguing that exists all the cultures if interlace, and others argue with the unconscious theory of the "collective one" of Carl Gustav Jung. One another explanation was proposal for the astronomer Carl Sagan in its book "Comet". Sagan reproduces one old Chinese manuscript that shows some varieties of comets: some comet representations present the nucleus with four bending arms, remembering the suástica. That perhaps, in the atinguidade a comet can have sufficiently if approach of the Land, what it would justify the representation of the suástica as world-wide existing symbol. Already, Bob Krobes in Comets and the Bronze Acts Collapse (1992 - in English, translation ours), "for it, in the truth would be alegorias of ` feet of birds ' for its similarity with this part of the anatomy of these animals".


 * So, as with the other examples I've given, the fifteen year old paper is still receiving academic attention--notability. Bkobres (talk) 20:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If we are speaking of general academic recognition of the theory, among people who may be considered experts, I think the single mention from Brazil does not yet tip the scales. It's good to be cited, but being cited by mainstream people in numerous papers is even better. EdJohnston (talk) 21:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Earlier in this discussion Dieter said: The paper was written 15 years ago. Has it been endorsed by anyone? Has anyone ever refered to the idea in print since? Or has this hypothesis been buried as soon as the "Chronology and Catastrophism Workshop" closed its gates? If we can cite some mainstream publication endorsing, or even mentioning the idea, the case might look different. dab (𒁳) 16:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * hallelujah, I found a lone reference to the article: R. Schoch, Voices of the Rocks : A Scientist Looks at Catastrophes and Ancient Civilizations, Harmony (1999), mentions a connection of birds and comets on p. 177f. (but no swastikas), and lists Kobres' website under "back matter" without further comment. This seems to more or less sum up the reception of the idea over the past 15 years. --dab (𒁳) 16:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The paper is also cited on several online publications including a NASA sponsored article: http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/deepimpact/science/comets-cultures.cfm Bkobres (talk) 22:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)