Talk:Sweat lodge/Archive 1

Plagiarism
Didn't anybody realize that this article, apart from displaying very little actual knowledge about traditional ceremonial sweat lodges, was completely plagarized? Im fixing it. MrPMonday 01:35, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The Sweat lodge article was not plagiarism, at least not in the way you think. If you check the Internet archive the Crystal Links site did not have the text of this article at the time it appeared in Wikipedia. They apparently took what I had written and added it to their site. What I wrote was rewritten from content on a number of other sites. You have added information which you say is based on your own experience. We have to be careful about this. Editing guidelines explicitly forbid using original research. I would be particularly cautious about suggesting that there is only one type of sweat lodge and one set of practises. --Lee Hunter 21:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * What Im writing should at least be added with the the indication that some traditions follow these methods. Many of the features ot the article are vague, and Im offering clarifications and expansions.  For example: "Orientation -- The location of the door may be based on the purpose of the sweat lodge" doesnt really tell the reader much, but "In some traditions the lodge is often placed with the door facing the east, the direction signifying, in many traditions, rebirth and new beginnings. The ceremonial fire is directly to the east of the door, and is connected to the lodge by a symbolic pathway. During the ceremony this patway can only be crossed by the firekeeper.", from a previous edit, tells readers more.  Granted I did not originally qualify that this was not the only way the ceremony is done in the world, but it allows the reader a little more informaiton on what actually does happen in a sweat lodge ceremony.  Yurts are not North American structures, and they serve different purposes, thus they are not related to sweat lodges.  Dog soldiers are military warriors, I have found no mention to them as lodge supporters.  Most traditions have a formal firekeeper to tend the fire.  I incorporated a lot of the information you keep reverting, but some of it needs attention.  You should probably consider removing the source that says exactly what you did... it doesnt look good... like plagarism actually.  And you should list your original sources.  MrPMonday 22:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Temperature
I've been in a sweat lodge and I've been in a sauna, and they're very different in terms of temperature. I've only been in each once and they were widely spaced so I'm not a valid source for this but I'd like some mention to be made that this isn't just your standard sauna if anyone has better information than me. A person that could bring a thermometor to both would be ideal. Vicarious 11:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I would not say that temperature is a significant item. The importance is not to say exactly how hot is either a sauna or a sweat lodge, because they both cover a wide range. One important reason to mention the sauna is that the sauna is the closest thing to a lodge that most people will recognize. Another is that they both hold similar positions in the culture. The lodge and the sauna are very old, traditional ways to generate steam and clean off a person's body. We might as well make a comparison to a bath or shower, but they are so recent that by comparison they can be considered fads. [Roy C, 13 March 2007]

Seeing that the comparison with a sauna is mentioned in the "risks" section, it might be wise to mention that temperatures can "exceed that of a sauna". On the other hand, I'm not very up on wikipedia guidelines, but doesn't this section seem advisory? If there is documented evidence that people have been injured or that sweat lodge temperatures have been measured at certain temperatures it would be more factual and less cautionary.--SianMycock 01:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Cuckfuster's comments
It’s interesting to note how people who know absolutely nothing about American Indians are always the loudest and most arrogant voices on the subject of sweat lodges. Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe has been very clear on this issue. Non-Indians should not be appropriating our sacred ceremonies. Rationalizing spiritual abuse by claiming that saunas exist in other cultures is a cowardly cop out. Non Indians mock our spiritual practices by paying for fakes and frauds who conduct bogus sweat lodges. The practice is offensive and must stop. Going to a sweat lodge is racist exploitation of indigenous spirituality and ignorance in no excuse. This article should be removed, it is full of Colonial ignorance and arrogance regarding sacred Inipi ceremony and will only lead to its further exploitation. Wikipedia should have contacted legitimate indigenous spiritual leaders and let them speak for themselves. This article is irresponsible. It can't be corrected, remove it!

"Looking Horse Proclamation on the Protection of Ceremonies Source: Indian Country Today, April 25, 2003

Posted: April 25, 2003 - 10:17am EST by: Arvol Looking Horse / Guest columnist Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe, would like to thank all the People that attended this historic Protection of Ceremonies meeting.


 * Bernard Red Cherries Northern Cheyenne Nation Northern Cheyenne Arrow Priest and Elk Society Headsman


 * Tweety Little Bird Northern Cheyenne Nation Northern Cheyenne Elk Horn Scraper Society


 * Lee Pedro Southern Arapahoe Nation Southern Arapahoe Rabbit Man (Holy Man)


 * Dave Chief Ogallala Nation Lakota Spiritual Leader


 * Dave Swallow Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Kevin Horse Looking Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Floyd Hand Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Silo Black Crow Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Sam Moves Camp Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Chris Leith Prairie Island Dakota Community Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Gaylen Drapeau Sr. I-hank-to-wa (Yankton Sioux) Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Gaylen Drapeau Jr. I-hank-to-wa (Yankton Sioux) Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Ambrose Little Ghost Spirit Lake Dakota Nation Dakota Spiritual Leader


 * Calvin Medicine Bear First Assinoboine Nakota Nation Nation Spiritual Leader


 * Leonard Crow Dog Si-c an-g u Rosebud Sioux Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Roy Stone Sr. Si-c an-g u Rosebud Sioux Nation - Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Ned Medcalf Si-c an-g u Rosebud Sioux Nation Interpretor/advisor


 * Leon Red Dog Hoh -wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation - Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Steve Vance Hoh -wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Francis Yellow Hoh -wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper


 * Jacob Sanderson Cree Nation Canada Medicine Bundle Keeper

O n March 8th and 9th, Spiritual Leaders and Bundle Keepers of the Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Nation, Cheyenne Nation and Arapahoe Nation were called together to discuss the protection from the abuse and exploitation of our ceremonies. The meeting was held at the Cultural Center in Eagle Butte, South Dakota, hosted by the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. I would also like to acknowledge the financial donation from the Prairie Island Dakota Community.
 * Kevin Ta-c an Sioux Valley Manitoba Dakota Nation Dakota Spiritual Leader

Discussions in the meeting included the molestation taking place in ceremony, indecent mockery, mixing of new age beliefs, charging for ceremonies and death, which was never heard of before in our ancient ceremonial history. There was also discussion of the use of other medicines (drugs) in and around our ceremonies. When the White Buffalo Calf Woman brought the Sacred Bundle, she instructed that only those with a pure mind and heart should touch the Canupa. The ceremonies in question, in reference to all the Plains Tribes, were the I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony), Wi-wanyang-wa-c i-pi (Sundance Ceremony) and Han-ble-c i-ya (vision quest) Sacred Rites.

We put out notice in the newspapers, native radio stations and also contacted people through the phone. I offered prayers for the safe journey of the People to this very important historic meeting. Those that could not attend, I acknowledge their prayers for a good outcome for our concerns.

After long discussion and testimonies of the concerns and issues, it was decided that it would be up to me, as the Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe to make a decision. It was good to feel the beginning of a Unity amongst our People. This has been my concern for many decades, especially now, when we are facing an oncoming war. We need to stand strong with our ceremonies!

I will state what the decision is and also explain the reasons. I will state the protocols to our Seven Sacred Rites, which were passed down to me when I became the next Keeper at the age of 12 years old. These protocols are traditional knowledge passed down through our oral history and need to be brought back to strengthen our Ho-c o-ka (our sacred alters) once again.

I will also address the areas that I cannot be involved in. My responsibility is the Seven Sacred Rites.

It was decided, from March 9th, 2003 and forward, there will be NO non-Natives allowed in our sacred Ho-c o-ka (our sacred alters) where it involves our Seven Sacred Rites. The only protection with this decision in Government law; is that only enrolled members can carry an eagle feather. In all the Seven Sacred Rites, there has always been the understanding of earning and a requirement of an eagle feather while participating in these Rites. The eagle feather stands for Indigenous knowledge and guidance in our spiritual ways
 * The Wi-wanyang-wa-c i-pi (Sundance Ceremony): The only participants allowed in the center will be Native People. The non-Native people need to understand and respect our decision. If there have been any unfinished commitments to the Sundance and non-Natives have concern for this decision; they must understand that we have been guided through prayer to reach this resolution. Our purpose for the Sundance is for the survival of the future generations to come, first and foremost. If the non-Natives truly understand this purpose, they will also understand this decision and know that by their departure from this Ho-c o-ka (our sacred alter) is their sincere contribution to the survival of our future generations.


 * Please understand the Wi-wanyang-wa-c i-pi Ceremony is not only taking place in the center (Ho-c o-ka) with the dancers. The ceremonial participation also depends on all the supporters on the outside of the arbor who should be in prayer. From the gate, to the cook shack, to the fire-keepers, to the supporters around the arbor, to even the moon camp, all people are still a part of this sacred ceremony.


 * There should be a preparation of Han-ble-c i-ya (vision quest) before you become a participant of the Sundance.


 * We shall go back into this ceremony with the proper protocols before and during the ceremony itself. Only those that have had the dream or direction through a ceremony, in concern of someone's health, should be dancing. Dancers should be secluded from outside participants, as to not be contaminated by other peoples energy or thoughts. There should be absolutely no food or water during this four-day ceremony. If there are health problems, you should choose a person to finish your commitment. This ceremony is supposed to be for those that believe they can fulfill all required four days of the ceremony.


 * Han-ble-c i-ya (Vision Quest): The vision quest should be ONLY for Native People that have had the dream or vision. This Rite is also for the young men and women that reach the age of 12 years of age.


 * I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony): Those that run this sacred rite should be able to communicate with Tun-ca-s i-la (our Sacred Grandfathers) in their Native Plains tongue. They should also have EARNED this rite by completing Han-ble-c i-ya and the four days and four years of the Wi-wanyang wa-c i-pi.


 * The other four sacred rites of the Hun-ka ka-g a (Making of a Relative), the Ta-pa kah -g o-ya (Throwing of the Sacred Ball), Wi-yan is -na ti (Womanhood Ceremony) and the Na-g i glu-ha (Keeping of the Spirit Ceremony), should be only handled by legitimate Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Oyate (People).

• It was also decided only legitimate Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Oyate Medicine Bundle Keepers should handle any other ceremonies that are connected to our Ho-co-ka, such as the Lo-wa-pi and U-wi-pi ceremonies.

• There should be no price tag allowed to participate in any of our Sacred Ceremonies. The only protocol needed for a ceremony is to o-pa-g i, meaning to offer your C anupa or offer tobacco that has been prayed with, in which the Medicine Person accepts or not accept if he is not able to assist. Medicine People do need to survive, and if people wish to give a monetary or any other gifts after they receive their help from ceremony, giving it from their hearts, I see no problem with that. We have to have faith that the Grandfathers will provide for our needs to survive in this modern society; whether the gift is money, blankets, food or anything that represents how much they appreciate the help. Some people can afford big gifts, some people cannot. It all balances out.

• My position is only for the Seven Sacred Rites. I cannot dictate to our Medicine People who they allow to attend and support these Rites, in reference to non-Native People. I cannot dictate who they choose to doctor in their ceremonies. I cannot dictate where they travel to doctor.

• I have my own personal feelings on who should be Keepers of our Sacred C anupa (Pipe). The C anupa is very sacred and the Keeper should first be given a dream and be of Native decent. This issue should be further discussed in our future meetings. The reason for my feelings is that I am aware the C anupa has gone out to the International community and has been for sale. I know that most non-Native People do not understand the important protocols or have had the Traditional background to carry this sacred item properly. I am aware of women in their moon and men with blood on their hands (to take ones life intentionally) have been allowed to touch and carry the C anupa. These serious situations were never to be allowed. I offer thanks to the non-Native People that have returned the C anupa to our People, after I privately shared my concerns with them. I acknowledge their true sincerity in assisting our Nation to protect the survival of our Traditional way of life on behalf of our future generations. They have helped us bring back honor and respect to our sacred Ho-co-ka and C anupa.

• There was also discussion of only the Plains Tribal members to participate in the Ho-co-ka of the Wi-wanyang wa-c i-pi and the Han-ble c i-ya Ceremonies. In the early 70 s, Chief Fools Crow and my father Stanley Looking Horse decided to allow other Native Nations to participate in these Rites. Their reasons were based on the fact that most Nations have lost their ways through assimilation or lack of Teachers to teach their Indigenous ways. They honored and understood the unity of the First Nations People when different Tribes came to the aid of the Wounded Knee Occupation. I cannot undo their decision out of respect for our Chief and Elder. It has also been in our history that our Ancestors have respectfully shared our ceremonies with other Indigenous Nations.

• The original teachings were that the Pipe Carrier should make their own C anupa. There was an understanding of the sincere spiritual energy and the traditional values passed down through our bloodlines. All the values of compassion, love, honor, respect and truth are molded into the spiritual life they are creating. I hope that one day the future generations will again pick up this important protocol. I would like to invite all our Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Nations to the next ceremony when I bring out the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Bundle. The dates in the fall will be announced. During this time we will place the 12 honorable compassionate men to assist in taking care of the concerns of the Sacred C anupa. We will also discuss the protocols of the need to have a good mind and good heart to be a member of the Societies that will carry out these decisions in a respectful manner.

There will be another Protection of Ceremonies meeting to further discuss and address these serious issues in the future. This meeting will be sponsored by the Cheyenne Nation.

Once again, I thank all those that have offered prayers for these very serious issues to be discussed and handled in a good way.

In the Sacred Hoop of Life, where there is no ending and no beginning!

Mitakuye Oyasin, Arvol Looking Horse,

19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe "

published under Fair Use guidelines

Cuckfuster 17:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Respectfully, I do not think that the article takes a position for or against non-natives taking part in sweat lodges. Perhaps you could incorporate the objections of Arvol Looking Horse and other commentary and controversies into the article to show this dimension of the issue. I appreciate that Wikipedia is in itself a cultural enterprise that reflects encyclopedic norms alien to many cultures, but the nature of the project determines certain patterns of contribution. Wikipedia does not seek contributors; rather contributors seek it and edit it as individuals. You seem to be implying that the very existance of this article, the demographic of editors, and the structure of Wikipedia is inimical to alternative cultural norms. The point is a valid one. Some might consider it "Colonial", as you do. It's up to you whether you want to enter into that world in order to edit the article and include your points or whether you want to stay well away from it. --SianMycock 02:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Completely unsourced
In terms of Wikipedia standards, most of this back and forth is actually irrelevant. If the article remains, the statements by Looking Horse and other Traditionals need to be incorporated. But right now all the varying opinions about the content of the article don't actually matter: if it can't be sourced from reliable sources - and reliable in this case means sources from the actual cultures in question, not new age or pop culture misinterpretations - it will have to be cut. I'm thinking that, rather than have an article of OR describing ceremonies, whether accurately or inaccurately, it would be far better to cut this down to a brief article that gives a simple description and places it in religious, cultural and political context. -  Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 05:04, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Naturally occurring pesticides and toxins
An unsourced section claims there is a risk from putting plants on a fire which may have been treated with "modern chemical pesticides". Any discussion of such a risk should also include discussion of naturally occurring pesticides (i.e., the natural chemical weapons plants use to keep from being eaten) and just plain toxic plants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.134.226.188 (talk) 22:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This section has been reworded but is unfortunately still there. "Modern chemical pesticides" should be changed to "toxic plants and herbs".  The chance of any "modern chemical pesticide" residue in any significant amount is so negligible it is hardly worth mentioning, while the risk from toxic fumes from some herbs (tobacco, etc) is a legitimate concern. 96.239.138.207 (talk) 11:13, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Etiquette
I reverted this, the statement is appropriate, it could be said better. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 14:40, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

blog source removed
This appears significant, however it's sourced from a blog. Removing for better sources. Many noble warriors died in lodges healing from battles. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 16:01, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Many of the sources can be verify from available internet news articles. I looked them up and had them referenced for the section. Ifa123 Henry123ifa (talk) 17:12, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Cree
It doesn't represent Cree sweat lodge. The article tries to summarize many different traditions, and fails. The people who do sweat lodge have the fact they were here before while people and thats about it. You'd have to have different nations telling how their sweats are done. So readers should not trust this wikipedia on this one. Just sayin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.17.134.14 (talk) 01:13, 22 March 2012 (UTC)


 * "The sweat lodge (also called purification ceremony, sweat house, medicine lodge, medicine house, or simply sweat) is a ceremonial sauna and is an important event in some North American First Nations or Native American cultures."

The article is a generalization (key word being "some"). So no you dont have to different nations telling how their sweats are done. Purpose of wiki is to make condense general summarizations and is not intended to be extended into an essay or book. Also the purpose of wiki talk is not for venting your personal issues. Unless you have something constructive to help the article there is no use in complaining.

Henry123ifa (talk) 09:47, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

NPOV issues
This article has major POV issues. First and foremost, a "sweat lodge" is not necessarily just an "Indian" practice. Secondly, there is little or no scientific research to support the assertion that a person really becomes "purified" of toxins in a ceremony. This article fails to objectively address the topic, and reads like a Native American defense lawyer's arguments.

69.15.219.71 (talk) 23:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * First of all you need to provide verifible alternative academic sources.


 * Second of all. For the issue of being scientific "purified of toxins". No scientific claims are being made.
 * Just what the metaphysical beliefs are. It is documentation.


 * The purpose of wiki talk is not about venting your personal issues and beefs here.

Henry123ifa (talk) 09:35, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Sources would be good. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 04:05, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Bad source
Reference #5 goes to a finnish message board discussion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.175.141.228 (talk) 15:37, 17 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Removed source and associated statement. Dger (talk) 19:25, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Global view?
The article's introduction, as well as it's title, suggest that it is about worldwide traditions and usage of sweat lodges. However, the "traditions" section as well as the "risks" section focus solely on North American Native traditions in the U.S. (and Canada, perhaps?)

I put the "globalize" tag on those sections. The article should either be corrected to reflect well-established world-wide traditions (such as the Meso-American, Scandinavian and Baltic ones), or the title and introduction should be changed to make it clear that it is only about a certain geographical region.74.12.194.151 (talk) 15:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


 * There is certainly a need for a "thermal bathing around the world" article.

Kortoso (talk) 21:00, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Smoke baths
I updated the lead mentioning smoke baths too (these too are used alongside steam baths). Shouldn't we mention somewhere that steam baths are much more healthy though ? (due to the smoke also coming into the lungs (at least in closed chamber -tipi- type setups) and due to the formaldehyde in the smoke ?

Still, smoke baths have benefits over steam baths too, as the smoke will probably deter insects (mosquitoes) at least to some extend, so overall it could be more beneficial (for example in countries where there's malaria) KVDP (talk) 07:18, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

"Worldwide View"
I no longer agree this article should attempt to cover all kinds of sweating in all cultures. Not if it's going to be called "sweat lodge." There's already a sauna article. I just did some cleanup, as people were generalizing across cultures in ways that didn't work, such as calling saunas and European sweathouses "sweat lodges" when they're actually very different. I think the "worldwide view" flags can be removed if this continues to be called "sweat lodge," which is specifically a term from the Americas. If the article were called "sweating traditions in different cultures," that would be different. - Co rb ie V  ☊ 21:50, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Sweat lodge. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120913190536/http://articles.sfgate.com/2002-06-27/bay-...t-hot-rocks-owl to http://articles.sfgate.com/2002-06-27/bay-...t-hot-rocks-owl
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150518085724/http://www.blackhillsportal.com/npps/story.cfm?ID=3492 to http://www.blackhillsportal.com/npps/story.cfm?ID=3492

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 00:50, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Sweat lodge. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140709173345/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLILFSrfmBs to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLILFSrfmBs

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 20:18, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Systemic Bias issues
The user adding "altered states" tags to this article and some other Indigenous ones... when it is only done to religious practices seen as "exotic" by westerners, and not to articles about Christian practices, or other mainstream religions practiced by white people, this is not appropriate. These are not "altered states" to be consumed by the curious. These are integrated parts of religions and cultures. The sources cited were offensive and again not WP:RS for the cultures in question. - Co rb ie V    ☊ ☼ 01:00, 21 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Hm. Maybe link the diffs at WP:IPNA, helps us pinpoint the article.    Montanabw (talk) 00:09, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Sweat lodge. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130317115751/http://ndnnews.com/2009/11/lakota-tribe-files-lawsuit-against-parties-in-sweat-lodge-incident/ to http://ndnnews.com/2009/11/lakota-tribe-files-lawsuit-against-parties-in-sweat-lodge-incident/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 22:29, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Plains Culture Bias
This article has major bias towards Plains culture and the spiritual aspect of sweating. Sweat Lodges were used all over North America and in many regions they also had a sanitary function that was more common than their use for spiritual or medical purposes. Apart from spiritual concerns, natives just used the sweat lodge on a regular basis for cleanliness, not unlike Scandinavians use a sauna. In parts of Northern California and Southern Oregon the sweat lodge doubled as a male dormitory.

Statements like:

"In all cases, the sweat is intended as a spiritual ceremony – it is for prayer and healing, and the ceremony is only to be led by elders who know the associated language, songs, traditions, and safety protocols."

are only accurate for certain traditions and seem to be a warning for white people not to try it on their own, rather than factual information.

The article also implies that other regions copied the sweat lodge from Plains culture. While current New Age copying of sweat lodges may be based on Plains culture, most of regions of North America (Southwest, Great Basin, California, Northwest Coast, and Plateau) had their own indigenous sweat lodge traditions.

I plan to make some changes... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brwils (talk • contribs) 14:49, 8 October 2021 (UTC)


 * You will need WP:RS sources for any changes you want to make. Specifically, RS for the cultures in question. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 20:22, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Lead confuses me
Two sentences in the lead are unclear to me: It states as fact that "numerous nations" adopted it in the 20th century, and then it used to say that was "controversial" until it was recently changed to "This view is disputed." What "view"? Is it disputed that it was primarily used by the Plains Indians? If so, why isn't it worded like Originally, it was thought to be used only by...? Is someone disputing that only the Plains Indians used it originally? If so, who and why? Or is its use by non-Plains Indians disputed? If so, by who and why?So I tried to find further expansion on the point in the body. There's nothing in the body about this. I checked the ref at the end of that lead para. The ref doesn't say anything about only the Plains Indians using it or its adoption by other nations. I went through historical versions of the article to see if perhaps some supporting content had gotten cleaned out over the years, but couldn't find anything more (on this aspect) than what is there now.I'm coming to this as a reader, not an editor. I know almost nothing about the subject, and have no idea what it should say. But without any expansion in the body on that part of the lead and without a ref to the source that supports it, I can't learn more to help me make sense of those two sentences. I'm hoping the editors with knowledge about this subject might clear this up somehow. Schazjmd  (talk)  13:38, 8 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I undid the uncited change from "controversial" to "disputed". It shouldn't have been left in (I had missed it). I thought we had sourcing about the adoption of sweats by other Nations being controversial years ago... I wonder if someone removed it? Traditionally they were common among Plains, Southwest, and I think some First Nations cultures, but with variations in structures and the ceremonies themselves. The ones who didn't have them but have adopted them tend to be from the Southeast, for instance. If it's already hot and sweaty, you don't need a ceremony to get hot and sweaty, and tradish purification is by a different method.
 * OK, this line in the Goulais source: "This is an indigenous ceremony. It should not be in the hands of anyone other than sanctioned lodge carriers from those legitimate nations who use this ceremony." So, not precise, but indicating not all Nations have the ceremony. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 18:51, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the change, but I'm still kind of confused. Why was it "controversial"? Could there maybe be some explanation in the body to cover that? Schazjmd   (talk)  18:58, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * There are Lakota and other Plains Elders who don't feel these other tribes should adopt the ceremony. But I don't know if I can find any sources on it. I'll just cut it unless someone has sources. Or I'll see if there is a way to work it in with the sources we have. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 19:00, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll leave it up to your expertise. Also, sorry for coming across as just picking at it instead of fixing it. I wouldn't know a good source from a questionable one in this subject area (and I'm sure there are many questionable ones).  Schazjmd   (talk)  19:01, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem :) I'll see if there are any sourcing updates. It's difficult to source these articles as a lot of things about ceremonies and protocols aren't discussed publicly and aren't supposed to be published. So what often does get published is incorrect. It's a fine line to tread. Thanks for collaborating. Best wishes, -  CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 19:14, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

No explanation of or link to a sweat
Nowhere on the page does it actually say what a sweat is, and I can't see any links to a page on sweats. I think this is probably vital information that's missing! Ionophore (talk) 22:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)