Talk:Sweetener (album)/Archive 1

Redirect
I agree with, sourcing is speculative and nothing has been confirmed. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 14:14, 2 May 2018 (UTC) I'm ok with the Pitchfork source. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 14:18, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. Community Tech bot (talk) 05:37, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Sweetener Album Cover.jpg

About the release date
Hello fellow editors. Should we keep Summer 2018 or July 20 2018 as the release date? We really need an collective consensus on this. It's getting messy. Please discuss below. Quickfingers (talk) 04:37, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * What is known so far:
 * On Jimmy Fallon's show, Ariana said she will be doing something special every 20th of the month, and there's 3 months until the "big thing", strongly suggesting it will be the album release. It is yet to be confirmed by her or her team. Billboard did an recap of the interview, and mentioned the album will be in fact released on July 20. I personally trust Billboard, since they're the most respectable online media about pop in the US. Quickfingers (talk) 05:20, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Summer 2018. Billboard said they did "a simple math", and I keep reading she liked a tweet that said it will be released on August. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 21:21, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Instagram comment actually, and she was liking random ones. Quickfingers (talk) 00:00, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Like Quickfingers said, Ariana likes random comments, and I'm fairly certain Billboard is correct on the release date. I suggest we keep the date as is (July 20th) as said by Billboard and perhaps a few other sites. Sure, they may have did a "simple math" Cornerstonepicker, but I'm pretty sure it's July 20th as well. Ariana basically said it herself on the Fallon show. - Kamran Mackey (talk to me · my contributions) 06:40, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Saying she likes random comments is WP:OR. There is no confirmation of anything beyond Summer 2018, at no point did Ariana confirm July 20, at most she implied it. Media sources reporting speculation as fact is no reason for Wikipedia to do the same. Fan4Life (talk) 17:03, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree w/ Fan4Life. We shouldn't just assume she liked random comments. Why don't we wait for an official confirmation. Watch the BB writer be wrong with his math and this will be another case of "we can't trust Wikipedia." Cornerstonepicker (talk) 19:58, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Wait for confirmation. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 20:00, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Could you please further explain why you kept removing the July 20th release date? It's reliabily sourced from All Access and The Fader vaguely saying that it would out in August doesn't make this new piece of information unreliable. Please also note that the new release date was published after the cover story, so it could've been updated or whatever. This page is already as messed up as it could be with all these song titles sourced from Twitter. The release date has always stayed the same since the Fallon show and I didn't understand how the hell it went to August in the first place. Hayman30 (talk) 15:58, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, this is obviously original search. Hayman30 (talk) 16:02, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Ariana has never said July 20, that has never been the date. Ariana liked tweets saying August, then The Fader confirmed that it's August, and Ariana said at Wango Tango that the album is coming in August. All Access is not reliable when Ariana has explicitly said that it's coming in August, nothing that contradicts Ariana is reliable. The Fader was not vague and it does make All Access unreliable as it was an interview with Ariana and it said that the album is due in August. Also, Ariana confirmed on Twitter that what's coming on July 20 is a song. Fan4Life (talk) 17:10, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The release date has always stayed the same since The Tonight Show. Billboard explicitly confirmed that "Sweetener will arrive on July 20th". Grande liking random tweets has nothing to do with this, as noted by editors above. And again, the new release date was published by All Access after the cover story, so it could be an update. We're not forever stuck with the old release date simply because Grande said something in the past that would deny everything afterwards. According to you, any source reporting a new release date for the album would be unreliable, which is absolutely absurd. Thus, at no point is All Access unreliable. Hayman30 (talk) 07:26, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Ariana explicitly said at Wango Tango that the album is coming in August, I provided a source directly quoting her. Also, she has said that what’s coming on July 20 is a song. Fan4Life (talk) 11:50, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Again, that article was published before All Access posted the new release date. It's not like the release date can't be updated or it must come out of Grande's mouth to be true. She never said that a song is coming on July 20, her random chatter with fans on Twitter is irrelevant to this discussion. Hayman30 (talk) 11:55, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes she did. You are literally saying that Ariana is wrong/lying. Fan4Life (talk) 11:57, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * She did not. Quote instances where she did. Nothing was confirmed on Twitter. Hayman30 (talk) 11:59, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I already did, as you'll see in my previous post. She said on Twitter "... u get the light in a couple days ... and another song on jul 20", I provided a link to this tweet above. Fan4Life (talk) 14:45, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * That's not an announcement, she was merely casually telling a fan about potential possibilities. She did not confirm or guarantee anything. Her tone implies that we should take her words with a grain of salt. Hayman30 (talk) 14:46, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * So now we have to take explicit confirmation from Ariana with a grain of salt? She was not saying we might get a song, she said that we are getting a song. Also, a fan asked Ariana what's coming on July 20 and she replied "a song". All Access is unreliable because it has no source and it contradicts Ariana herself. Plus, Billboard have also said that the album is expected in August, in an article published today. Fan4Life (talk) 15:01, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Please stop edit warring. Hayman30 (talk) 15:05, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not edit warring, I was reverting addition of incorrect information. Ariana has not announced TLIC as a single, and media sources are known to frequently misuse the word "single". Fan4Life (talk) 15:08, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Lol you're not edit warring? You're literally reverting every edit made on this page. "Reverting addition of incorrect information" doesn't mean you're not and is not an excuse for edit warring. You already have a long-standing history of edit warring. Billboard explicitly called it the second single. It's not up to you to decide whether they've misused the term "single", you're just a fan. And you need to stop using Grande to back yourself up. Not everything has to announced by Grande to be substantially true. Neither has she announced the song as a promotional single, so why did you label it as such? You are contradicting yourself. We need to stop relying on Grande's words on Twitter to craft this article. Regarding you last comment, Grande did not confirm anything. Notice how she used words like "how about dis" and "deal?". She's hinting at the song release at best, she's not announcing anything. An announcement would be something like: "Very excited that my song [song title] is coming out on July 20!" Stop using everything she says on Twitter as a reliable source that immediately disregards any contradicting statement. Hayman30 (talk) 15:17, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Stop asking me to take it to the talk page as an excuse for your edit warring. I left the comment above more than a day ago, there has no response from you whatsoever. You need to stop. As I said, not everything has to be officially announced to be substantially true. Billboard explicitly referred to it as the second single and there literally isn't a single source calling it a promotional single. Calling it a song doesn't mean it's a promotional single, I have absolutely no idea why y'all still think this is a valid argument. It's not up to you to examine whether media sources have misused the word, and in this instance, the song has been explicitly referred to as the second single. You kept coming up with different excuses and false claims. It was never an unsourced change, it was reliably sourced with Billboard. In fact, calling it a promotional single was unsourced in the first place, there literally isn't a single source calling it as such. You need to stop using "the article has been stable until now" as a reason for your reverts. Hayman30 (talk) 16:01, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't see it. Media sources also called "Be Alright" the second single from Dangerous Woman, so that proves nothing. "The Light Is Coming" is clearly a promotional single as there is no radio impact date, singles are sent to radio. Fan4Life (talk) 15:00, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You didn't see it? I pinged you twice and you didn't see it? Righto. What are you trying to point out with "Be Alright"? Because media sources called it the second single and you don't agree with them so they're wrong? What makes you think "The Light Is Coming" is "clearly" a promotional single? Based on your observations? There literally isn't a single source on the page calling it a promo single/buzz track, and you can't interpret "single" as "promotional single" simply because you don't agree with the former. Singles are not required to be sent to radio, please stop using this as an argument. Hayman30 (talk) 15:19, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, but the official Team Ariana account has called it a promotional single on Twitter and so has Ariana, which is more reliable than media sources who have no connection to Ariana or her team. Fan4Life (talk) 18:38, 21 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Right now, multiple third-parties are claiming August 2018 as the tentative release. And, with the pre-order tomorrow, we should simply wait and stay with August 2018 until the pre-order is available to use as a source.  livelikemusic    talk!  15:12, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Any objections to archiving this section? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:56, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Track listing
Please find a source which verifies the track numbers and lengths for "Raindrops", "R.E.M." and "Get Well Soon". Hayman30 (talk) 06:45, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Raindrops: https://twitter.com/arianagrande/status/1012040904889323523?s=21

The rest were posted on her Instagram Story and were determined by adding lengths on each side. Grande posted God Is A Woman to be 3:17/18 the day before the release of the song, which turned out to be accurate, meaning all of the other lengths are accurate as well. Sixinchboca (talk) 14:47, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Track Listing
Sweetener's Instagram IS an official source, stop reverting the edits. It is ran by Ariana and her team and she has also confirmed several other tracks on twitter that are being reverted:

R.E.M: https://twitter.com/arianagrande/status/1003013432294031360?s=21

Get Well Soon: https://twitter.com/arianagrande/status/1003012881254760448?s=21

These reverted updates are problematic and unnecessary, especially when everything that is being reverted has already been confirmed by Grande herself. Stop. Sixinchboca (talk) 14:44, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it wasn't official, I said it couldn't be used as a source for the track list. Just because she posted what appears to be the tracklist doesn't mean it is the tracklist. There are nothing written in the caption, nothing confirms that it is the actual tracklist. Saying something like "oh my god that's clearly the tracklist" is against WP:OR, because there is not one reliable source that confirms it. This page is already bloated with all kinds of assumption and speculation purely based on Grande's tweets (e.g. Grande tweeting "the one with P isss called Blazed" immediately translates to "'Blazed' (featuring Pharrell Williams)"). What really is problematic is that fans keep coming in and changing the page like they do on Wikia, where they can just put rumors and original search on articles. Hayman30 (talk) 15:00, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Reverted edit by "Frankie Grande"
I reverted this edit because I don't see confirmation of the song "Orange". But, 1) is there a way to confirm if this is really Frankie Grande?, and 2) do we need to add a connected contributor template to this talk page? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:44, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I see has blocked this account. --- Another Believer  ( Talk ) 23:00, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Max Martin
You keep saying that Max Martin shouldn't be shortened, but it's shortened on all other pages where he's listed. As well as this, I can't find anything in MoS that says names shouldn't be shortened if they aren't legal names. Fan4Life (talk) 21:37, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Question
I don't know if this is the right place to make this question... but I need to know why tracklist is not stylized? --1998gmo (talk) 20:45, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Becuase Wikipedia does not embrace stylizations. We have our own manual of style. Hayman30 (talk) 13:57, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! --1998gmo (talk) 18:51, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Bonus track
The deluxe edition includes a karaoke version of No Tears Left To Cry. source: Source --84.108.146.16 (talk) 10:05, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 August 2018
In Track Listing change track 14 "title14 = pete davidson" to "title14 = Pete Davidson" (title case, MOS:MUSICCAPS) Also, could the protection level be decreased, please? Extended-confirmed protection heavily restricts other editors; I could have easily made this edit in 5 seconds, without bothering others. — bieχχ (talk) 22:29, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Hayman30 (talk) 23:13, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

The Sweetener Sessions
Page watchers are invited to help expand the newly-created article The Sweetener Sessions. Thanks! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 17:17, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Goodnight n Go
Surely the writer credits are completely wrong, as the song is mainly a cover of a song written by Imogen Heap, with minor additions by someone(s) else.109.149.91.131 (talk) 23:31, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and linked the track title to Goodnight and Go. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 14:57, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Template:Ariana Grande
Should "Goodnight n Go" be added to Template:Ariana Grande? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 21:22, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I found examples of covers being included in an artists template, among many others:
 * Liability (song) in Template:Tove Styrke (released as a single)
 * Smooth Criminal in Template:Alien Ant Farm (single)
 * Red Red Wine in Template:UB40 (single)
 * I'm a Believer in Template:Smash Mouth (single)
 * Blue Monday (New Order song) in Template:Orgy (single)
 * Covers aren't included in Template:Panic! at the Disco (Bohemian Rhapsody, from an album), Template:Travis (...Baby One More Time (song), B-side single), Template:Local Natives (Ultralight Beam, released as a single)
 * Although it is not a single, I do not see a reason not to add it to the template. — bieχχ (talk) 21:59, 22 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Also, Over the Rainbow is included in the Ariana Grande template. I went ahead and added Goodnight n Go to other songs. — bieχχ (talk) 09:33, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 13:33, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 August 2018
Track listing edit. Track 1 Raindrops (An Angel Cried) – Imogen Heap and Molly Lawes to be ADDED as *co-producers* alongside Max Martin and Ilya Salmanzadeh. There's been some discrepancy with Imogen's crediting – just like how she wasn't added as a writer on 'Goodnight N Go'. https://twitter.com/imogenheap/status/1031301085162622977 Please amend the Track 1 credit to list correctly, thank you! Itsjd4real (talk) 15:01, 20 August 2018 (UTC)


 * ❌ - Twitter is not an acceptable source in this case. Please read Wikipedia's instructions on reliable sources. - Dmezh (talk) 15:12, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 22 August 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: WITHDRAWN by the nominator as the proposal was unanimously opposed. (non-admin closure) — bieχχ (talk) 21:18, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Sweetener (album) → Sweetener – Pageviews since the article's creation show that the album is the primary topic by far. Since creation of Sweetener (album), it has been getting several times more pageviews daily than Sugar substitute. Currently, Sweetener redirects to Sugar substitute; moving the article about the album to Sweetener will improve navigation and avoid surprising users. — bieχχ (talk) 10:36, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). — bieχχ (talk) 11:02, 22 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Note was nominated at RfD on 21 August 2018, the discussion was procedurally closed as this requested move is the correct venue. Thryduulf (talk) 11:21, 22 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose – Although the album has a huge spike in page views following its release last week, it has not yet demonstrated sufficient long-term significance to become the primary topic. However, there is a good case for moving the dab to the base name instead. Certes (talk) 11:29, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd like to point out that since the article's creation (2 May 2018), it has been getting at least 2600 pageviews daily, while the Sugar substitute article has been getting less than 1000 pageviews a day. Also, if there will not be consensus to move this page, I will support moving the dab page to Sweetener.— bieχχ (talk) 11:43, 22 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I oppose the move as proposed, but may support moving the disambiguation page to the base title. &mdash; Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 11:37, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose - a spike in viewing is to be expected with a novel thing, but sugar substitutes/intense sweeteners have a larger significance outside of popular music. As WP:PrimaryTopic says "In most cases, the topic that is primary with respect to usage is also primary with respect to long-term significance" and "A topic may have principal relevance for a specific group of people (for example, as the name of a local place, or software), but not be the primary meaning among a general audience". That would also preclude any disambiguation move. I note that revolver, the gun, is the primary topic despite the cultural significance attaced to Revolver (Beatles album)  GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:54, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose – this album is clearly not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Pageviews have never been a valid determining factor in move discussions. Hayman30 (talk) 15:00, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Sugar substitute is the clear primary redirect, as it already is. It's an incredibly common term of long-term significance. Of course an album released five days ago is going to get a spike in page usage! But it's pure WP:RECENTISM. It's no indicator of being the primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:05, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose as primary topic is clearly the sugar substitute. Even Thriller album does not claim primary topic, and the album is nowhere close to being that popular. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 16:11, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Also note the pages that link to the word are mostly concerning the sugar substitute. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 18:14, 22 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I don't think even the most ardent Ariana Grande fan would be astonished to find themselves at sugar substitute when searching for "sweetener". &mdash;Xezbeth (talk) 17:19, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose WP:ASTONISH per Necrothesp, we already have a direct hatnote to the album.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:21, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose let's see if we can get up to 100 in 7 days In ictu oculi (talk) 18:25, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Close, there's obviously not consensus to move. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 21:01, 22 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:23, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Ariana Grande "Sweetener".jpg

Trap
Explain how trap is supported by the source. Hayman30 (talk) 18:33, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * "But with her new album Sweetener, she set her sights on conquering trap" this is explicitly saying that trap is one of the album's primary genres. Fan4Life (talk) 12:44, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
 * No, it is not explicitly saying that at all. It is implying that trap is involved in the album, but it doesn't specify how..  Please look up "explicit" in the dictionary. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:27, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ssilvers. It says "set her sights", that doesn't mean they are calling this a trap album. And it definitely isn't "explicitly" stating that trap is a "primary genre" on this album. You're clearly trying to make her sound better by trying to say this is a trap album when it's not. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 21:48, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I think that the source is explicit enough. The title itself asserts that "‘Sweetener’ Proves That Trap Is the New Pop" and the body of the article constantly refers to trap music ("with her new album Sweetener, she set her sights on conquering trap", "on Sweetener, he [Pharrell] helps close the album with another chunk of trap-pop, co-producing a trio of booming, ironclad beats"). Blueberry72 (talk) 11:51, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The source calling a certain song trap is irrelevant to this situation. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 08:19, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually, in various sentences the source attributes trap to whole album. Blueberry72 (talk) 13:09, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2018
Sweetener was released in Sweden 17th August 2018 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.115.145.210 (talk)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. &#8209;&#8209; El Hef  ( Meep? ) 13:32, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 November 2018
Peak position 68.49.164.208 (talk) 02:04, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 02:29, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Edit warring
I have protected the article for a week. Stop edit-warring and talk things through here, please. Fish +Karate 13:07, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 November 2018
November, 2018" = "November 2018" 2605:E000:9149:8300:543B:5538:4D31:42BA (talk) 09:10, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done WP:MINOR. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 14:50, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2019
74.67.37.70 (talk) 17:59, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 18:03, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

==Release History-- Can you update the VINYL release date to November 2nd, 2018? The page only says Month/Year meanwhile the other formats have the full date. Visit amazon to verify the dates if you need that also. Moonlightfocus (talk) 10:29, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Genres
There seems to be a dispute over whether two articles in Crack Magazine and Rolling Stone respectively are sufficient to add additional genres in the infobox and change the lead to follow suit. Sample revert. I have full-protected the article for three days as everyone seems to be arguing over this - please discuss here. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  19:23, 3 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The main problem here is block evasion by User:MariaJaydHicky. Other than that, the Rolling Stone article is the most established source. Binksternet (talk) 19:39, 3 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The Rolling Stone article saying it is trap and yet another sock of Maria denying it are both quite obvious. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 15:53, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Sweetener (album)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Sweetener (album)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Argentina": From 21 (Adele album):  From The Fame Monster:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 12:45, 6 April 2020 (UTC)