Talk:Sweetheart of the Rodeo/Archive 1

Comment
Set Album to Class B & Top Importance Megamanic 09:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Major deletion of material
User:PetSounds recently removed a major quantity of material here with no explanation beyond an edit summary saying "fixing up". PetSounds, could you please explain the rationale of your edit? Offhand, I disagree strongly with the deletions, but I figured I'd ask what is going on rather than revert. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:28, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

First, "major" is a bit of an overstatement. The text needed more historical background (how Gram joined and influenced the band and why he left) which it did not have. And also, it is worth pointing out how big a commercial risk they were taking. I re-added the paragraph on the 2003 re-master - that was an unintentional deletion on my part. In any case, the article is improved now. PetSounds 13:44, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with any of your additions, it's the deletions I was asking about. -- Jmabel | Talk

The Notorious Byrd Brothers
According to our article on The Notorious Byrd Brothers, that album was not a big hit at least in the U.S., peaking at only #47. Could someone clarify the difference in tone between this article and the other? Thanks, Meelar (talk) 18:15, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

The cover
I was in Albuquerque, about a month ago, when I saw an old poster in the lobby of the Howard Johnson's, Sweetheart of the Rodeo by Jo Mora made in 1933 (I just looked that up and found out what it was) and the noticed the graphic in the middle, was the same one that was on the cover this album. I told my friend who I was with "I think I saw that picture on the cover of some old record".--Hailey 02:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

The Kevin Kelley link leads to some boxer dud who was not a drummer.

Parsons vocals
On which tracks to Parsons' lead vocals remain? -GTBacchus(talk) 03:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Life In Prison, You're Still On My Mind, Hickory Wind, One Hundred Years From Now (right channel), and The Christian Life (on the chorus and on the right channel of the last line in each verse). Some reports, which claim that Parsons's lead vocals were wholly eradicated from the latter two songs, are erroneous. Cbben (talk) 18:19, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Drug Store Truck Driving Man Lyric
Isn't the lyric, "He's the head of the Ku Klux Klan", not what's written here (leader of). It only seems important because the article actually has them in quotes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.166.84 (talk) 15:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You're correct. The lyric should read "He's the head of the Ku Klux Klan" and I have corrected this in my recent edits (see below). Kohoutek1138 16:25, 06 September 2009 (UTC)

Removal of No Footnotes tag
I have removed the tag stating that this article "includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations". This is because I have restructured the article, expanding it significantly, removing many factual inaccuracies and added many new inline references to remedy the specific "No footnotes" issue. Kohoutek1138 16:25, 06 September 2009 (UTC)

Changes to Personnel section & removal of invalid reference
I have reformatted the "Personnel" section in keeping with Wikipedia style guidelines. Titles should not appear with a capital letter at the start of each word...in most cases they should only have a capital letter at the start of the first word. Check out some of the other music related articles on Wikipedia, if their section headings are formatted correctly, this is how they will appear. It also makes sense to have the various headings related to Personnel as sub-sections under the general "Personnel" section...in keeping with the "Track Listing" section, which has sub-sections for "Side 1" and "Side 2" etc, etc. This is compliant with Wikipedia style guidelines.

Additionally, I have also removed the reference in the "Personnel" section relating to David Fricke and Johnny Rogan's liner notes in the 1997 CD reissue - these liner notes DO NOT support this information adequately. There is NO detailed listing of track-by-track personnel anywhere in these liner notes. Please only use references that genuinely support the information found in the article, thank you. Kohoutek1138 12:02, 12 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The inclusion of Fricke, at least so far as my contribution is concerned, is only with respect to the background vocal on "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" and, to a lesser extent, the banjo on "I am a Pilgrim." Though one can take the banjo credit from Hjort alone, Fricke makes it a more solid conclusion. If it weren't for the backing vocal credit on the first track, however, I could see removing Fricke from the notes on personnel.


 * Yeah, I think it's OK to leave the Fricke reference in, since there are now other references to support the whole Personnel section. I only removed the Fricke reference when it was being used next to "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" and "I Am a Pilgrim", since I felt it was misleading...it kind of intimated that the complete personnel listing for these two songs came from Fricke, which it obviously didn't. As it stands now is fine. Kohoutek1138 11:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * In the interest of confirming these last few credits I guess I'm going to have to canvass the Gram Parsons biographies. Unless someone has already read them and found them not to cover the matter of personnel on this album???  Or does anyone know of any other book(s) that might detail the matter beyond what has been cited in the article already?  Does anyone have the liner notes for the Legacy double-disc (I haven't seen those)?


 * I have the Legacy Edition but the liner notes don't specify who's playing the electric either. Good luck with the Parson's biographies...I doubt whether the info you need will be found in those. It's a little too technical for most biographies and is likely to only be found in Rogan or Hjorts books - which it isn't. Kohoutek1138 14:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

McGuinn credited as playing Electric Guitar in personnel
I have reinstated the "electric guitar" credit to Roger McGuinn in the Personnel section because although he doesn't play the instrument on the 11 tracks that make up the original album, he did play his 12-String Rickenbacker during the album sessions. McGuinn's 12-String electric guitar playing can be heard on the album outtakes "Lazy Days" and "Pretty Polly", both of which are included as bonus tracks on the 1997 Remastered CD. Kohoutek1138 00:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Good point, especially since the experience of new listeners will be the release with bonus tracks not the original album only. I think when the instrument is on outtake/bonus material only, the best approach is to clarify as much as per the listing as it stands at present.  I don't think it makes sense to detail things any further, but for the record per Sundazed's online description McGuinn's electric guitar on "Lazy Days" is a six-string.  But again I think the number of strings is best left out, and electric guitar suffices for both "Pretty Polly" and "Lazy Days."  Added note:  the 1997 bonus track version of Lazy Days appears to have both six and twelve-string electric guitar; maybe the Sundazed version has no 12-string in the mix, but to my ears the CD version has both.


 * Now moving on, "You Got a Reputation" and the rehearsal version of "Life In Prison" both appear to have electric six-string rhythm guitar -- played by McGuinn it would seem -- but does anyone know? Also as to the "Life In Prison" on the album itself -- the only acoustic guitar in the mix (to my ears) is that one lick in the first five seconds.  It's sort of like that intro to "Sweet Jane" and could have been tacked on after the fact because it works so well.  So I'll try to get to JayDee Maness, Roy Halee, or Lloyd Green, the likeliest to know and let us know, but meanwhile does anyone have a bead on who's playing this lick?  To my ears it doesn't sound like Hillman or McGuinn, and sounds a little beyond Parsons (though not by much, and he still seems to be the likeliest candidate).  Maness could definitely have played it.  Maybe he'll let us know.


 * I totally agree with all your points regarding the number of guitar strings and I also agree that the outtake of "Lazy Days" on the Sweetheart remaster features a 12-string but still, number of strings in largely irrelevant in the context of this article I feel. As for the rehearsal version of "Life In Prison" and the outtake "You've Got a Reputation" I have no idea who's playing the electric - could be Parsons, could be McGuinn - best to leave it out if we're not sure. On a related point, as the user Rlendog pointed out, if something's unverifiable or unknown it shouldn't really appear on Wikipedia. Rlendog was making reference to the notes in the Personnel section where it says something like "Acoustic guitar unknown". Personally, I think this kind of note is OK but it is kind of against Wikipedia guidelines. I suggest we leave these notes where they are for the time being, but don't be surprised if some other editor comes along and deletes them.


 * As for "Life in Prison" on the album itself, I think the acoustic does carry on after the song starts. It's kinda difficult to hear because it kind of gets ducked back down in the mix after that opening lick, but if you listen to the left hand stereo channel in isolation, I think you can kind of hear that the acoustic doesn't cut out but continues throughout the song. It's pretty low in the mix though, but there's a percussive strumming of the strings that can sometimes be made out I believe. I don't know though, I could be wrong.


 * As for who played it, I've no idea but I would say this with regards contacting Maness or whoever;
 * one of the cardinal rules of Wikipedia is NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH. As the Wiki guidelines quite bluntly state, Wikipedia is not concerned with what's true, only with what is verifiable. As such you need to have a written reference supporting the information. So, Maness could tell you who played that lick and be 100% totally accurate in his comments but it's no good for Wikipedia unless it's supported by a reliable, third party reference. Just thought you should know. Kohoutek1138 12:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I see. Verifiable, as in a private conversation or e-mail exchange would not be acceptable as support.  Glad I mentioned the idea here so I now know and can adhere to the no original research proviso.  And if the "Life In Prison" acoustic carries into the song then yes it would seem Parsons plays it, though it's still "unconfirmed" until something published confirms it, as I now understand the way things to be.


 * A few bits of unverifiable information shouldn't kill an entire track-by-track, so we need a workaround. If we can't put "unknown" or "unconfirmed" where nothing published verifies one small piece of the puzzle, there has to be something we can put, such as "also: acoustic guitar." That's how Neil Young does it in his self-hosted/published discography, including Buffalo Springfield material.  Now, if Hjort for example says there is, say, an unknown guitar player on a given track, that scenario should be considered verifiable info as we have a source stating such-and-such is on the track but it is not in the public's knowledge who is playing it. So in such a case it should be appropriate to include the partial information, it would seem to me. The problem might arise where the information is not in the literature even on a partial basis, as in no one says the instrument is even on the track, much less who is playing it.  I think I am getting it.  Thanks for the help. It will make me careful about when and how to put things.


 * I agree with your comments on the "unconfirmed or unknown" parts being verifiable because it's mentioned in Hjort's book. That's kind of why I feel that the way it is at the moment, with "acoustic guitar player unknown" is fine. I recommend leaving it like it is currently but as I say, if some other editor comes along and deletes it, don't be too surprised. You can always reinstate it anyway if that happens and make a mention of it on the talk page. Just put a comment in your edit summary like "reinstated unknown acoustic guitar player credit - see talk page for details". Kohoutek1138 13:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Just read in Hjort that two "Lazy Days" were cut: one with Lloyd Green (doesn't specify instrument) and one with 12-string from McGuinn.  I wouldn't be surprised if the 7" version is the one with Green, and he's on pedal steel, but Sundazed thinks it's McGuinn on 6-string.  I've never heard that version.  The CD bonus track (seems to be the same version as the one on the Byrds' first box set) seems to have 12-string, plus some rhythm electric from who-knows-whom.  Hjort's general style is such that when he doesn't specify instrument, it means the player is on his or her usual instrument, being pedal steel in Green's case.  On the bonus track/Box Set #1 version, Parsons counts the song off.  When a player counts off a song does that mean he typically would be playing an instrument (that's how I've always seen it live)? Cbben (talk) 23:04, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't heard the Sundazed 7" version either, it’s on my “to get” list. The CD bonus track of "Lazy Days" on the regular Sweetheart Columbia/Legacy CD is definitely the same take as on the first box set. There's also a third version of “Lazy Days” on the Legacy Edition double CD but the liner notes provide no info other than the recording date. It's not always an instrumentalist who counts of though, I usually have the role of a singer in the various bands I've been in and in rehearsals I'm often the one to count off a song, although personally I feel that it should be the drummers job but that's just me. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 00:07, 30 September 2009 (UTC)