Talk:Swiss Air Force/Archives/2015/October

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Military air surveillance

In Switzerland (including airspace of Lichtenstein) military air surveillance is also called Permanent air surveillance PlÜ. This will ensure uninterrupted 24h/365days by the FLORAKO system and by the IDO (Identifications Officer) and the TM (Track Monitor) and represented the air situation as Recognized Air Picture. The Swiss Air Force has several operational centers. In peacetime, the military command center in Dübendorf airfield located in the same building as the civilian air traffic control Skyguide is used. The locations of the other operational centers are secret. The command centers are part of the unit "Einsatz Luftwaffe" air, the Einsatz Luftwaffe chief is directly subordinate to the commander of the Air Force. It consist of the operations center of the Air Force redundant direct connections to the emergency organizations (REGA, police FEDPOL) as well as to the two Skyguide air traffic centers (Geneva and Zurich) and to the military and civilian air traffic control centers of the neighboring countries that are responsible for the adjacent sectors. Currently the sky is indeed continuously monitored, but intervention resources are usually weekdays only at day aviable. Only at major exercises, international conferences (WEF) or crises (Libya) 24 intervention resources are available. This is called PlÜ + (PlÜ PLUS) or ILANA. The Parliament has been adopted the requirement that 24h all year armed interceptors are ready, however, the Federal Council had the necessary funds not released it (would be at least 75 additional Jobsa and 2 air bases and civilian sites in Geneva and Zurich would need some modifications like Fighter aircraft boxes with livingroom for the personal. The Swiss Air Force is expected to have armed fighter jets on QRA 24 hours every day  until 2017.

Air policing Despite the persistent lack of continuous availability of armed fighter jets for the entire year, the Swiss Air Force regularly conducts the air policing. Contrary to popular conceptions of air policing is one of the most complex and challenging tasks of the Air Force. Unknown aircraft have short-term and in all weather conditions identified without error margin and, if necessary, can be intercepted. The air policing is performed daily and is always a real commitment and not one of the exercises, the parallel (eg air combat exercises) to take place. With the air policing following points would ensure, control and sovereignty of Swiss airspace and security in the entire air transport. The Air Force therefore not only meets the tasks of an independent state (or with Lichtenstein States) but also tasks for the benefit of civil aviation (FOCA & Skyguide). The air policing can be divided into two types: The Preventive air policing. Aircrafts will be intercepted by the Swiss Air Force and visually inspected, it is checked whether the aircraft complies with the timetable specified information (type, registration, operator) and whether abnormal characteristics are apparent. Or will it be followed and observed aircraft if the pilot at the air traffic rules keeps (sink rate, speed, type, weather conditions, etc. as appropriate).

Active air policing interventions
 * Help for civilian aircraft, for example problems with navigation and radio
 * "Visible" (escort) to make an airplane with a faulty transponder visible for civil ATC
 * Finding from flares with forwarding to emergency organizations (eg REGA)
 * Identification of airspace violations as not allowed ingress or schedule disruptions
 * Intervention to monitor safety whom VFR aircraft enters airways or the arrival & departure corridors of airports
 * Enforcing use of airspace restrictions (eg WEF, G8)
 * Monitor the airspace in hijacking
 * Management of crisis situations (eg approximation of enemy / terrorist aircraft at the border)

The Swiss Air Force is entitled to inspect at any time, regardless of type, nationality, etc. each aircraft, which is located in Switzerland (and Liechtenstein) airspace. Air policing interventions should be consultation with the respective Air Force operations center also across borders. Average to be flown 400 air police missions per year of which up to 50 Active air policing interventions, are growing. The Air Force also conducts regular air police training missions on all of their own resources through a high standard of security to ensure several times per year Bi-Tri-national air and police exercises performed with all the neighbors. In contrast to the German Luftwaffe, the Swiss Air Force is authorized for acute hazard third stop by an aircraft that even in times of peace by force of arms. The launch command is communicated directly to the Minister of Defense or the commander of the Air Force via the CAD (Chief Air Defence), the fighter pilot has ultimate authority to use weapons because they can assess an escalation or de-escalation first. After calling on the international distress frequency 121.5 MHz and the ICAO standard manoevers the Swiss Air Force uses as the last warning of a possible use of weapons (so to speak as a "shot across the bow) is the firing of the well visible Flairs (magnesium flares).

Services to other organizations

The Swiss Air Force met along with these tasks with their EQUIPMENT and staff a variety services for various other organizations.She providewith one of the secondary FLORAKO radar civilian Skyguide with radar data and enables a safe air traffic management. Air Force helicopters and drones regularly conduct surveillance flights for the Border Guard GWK, are also also for surveillance flights (eg Street Parade) and searching flights for the benefit of the police and the REGA. Also in support of the Fire Department for fire fighting where there drones and helicopters with FLIR used to locating nests of fire in forest fires. The helicopter of the Swiss Air Force can be used with the Bambibucket as extinguishing agents at home and abroad, the largest fire fighting operation was with three Super Puma in Israel. Three helicopters are currently stationed in support of KFOR in Kosovo. Or are used in large-scale events for relief abroad (eg Sumatra after the tsunami). For the Federal Office of Public Health, National Emergency Operations Centre and the Air Force conducts regular ENSI with helicopters and F-5 by air data collection and radioactivity measurements. With F-5 as part of the ARES program parabolic flights in favor of the ETH Zurich and other research institutions are carried out. In addition, the Air Force modified all-diplomatic clearance requests that are filed outside the opening times of the FOCA and represents the REGA (Swiss Air Rescue) communication systems available. The air base command 13 of Meiringen care in his office in addition to the resources of the Belp LTDB the aircraft stationed there by the Federal Office for Civil Aviation (FOCA).

Historical inventory
Armasuisse use a Aurora the Centaur (a modification of a Diamond DA42MPP can be flown both manned as well as unmanned) with the military Tailnumber R-711. Small target drone 1985: KZD85 The small target drones KZD 85 were purchased in 1985 by the Swiss Air Force for the training of air defense troops (flab). There 60 were procured. Today (2008), the Air Force still about 30 units. The drones are used to a maximum distance of 2.5 km under visual conditions as targets. The whole system is in a single-axle trailer housed, which also serves as part of the launch catapult. The remote-controlled planes land after the mission on a parachute. Registrations: Z-30 and Z-90 Source: Swiss Armed Forces - Air Force assets (p. 12); Schweizer Luftwaffe - Mittel: Flugzeuge, Helikopter, Flab  ! style="text-align: left;"|Notes
 * Hiller UH-12 B (1952 - 1962) V-10 to V-12 were first as KAB-201 and KAB-203 Enrolled. KAB for battlefield and artillery observation. helicopters lost in landing accidents.
 * Sud-Ouest SO 1221 (1958 - 1964), V-21 and V-24 were used for pilot training for the Alouette II, because of persistent shortcomings of the rotor blades, the machines were released back to the manufacturer.
 * Alouette II (1958-1992) in 1958, 10 1964 Alouette II bought another 20. They were used for observation, liaison, transport, and rescue flights. Enrollment V-41 to V-70.
 * Alouette III (1964-2010): From 1964, a total of 84 Alouette III helicopters procured (V-201 and V-284). 14 of these were lost in accidents. They were used mainly to transport and training purposes and were not armed. Since the Army XXI, only 35 were on duty. They were put out of service since 2008 and gradually replaced by the Eurocopter EC635.
 * Eurocopter Dauphin (2005-2009) for VIP transport, the state government until 2008, a Eurocopter Dauphin (T-711) was used, which was sold.
 * Rockwell 680FL Grand Commander (1976 - 1993) HB-GCB civil enrolled machine of the Federal Office of Topography (swisstopo)
 * Learjet 35 (1987-2006) The Learjets bought the Air Force of the REGA and enrolled them as T-781 and T-872: sold.
 * Beechcraft Model 50 Twin Bonanza (1957 - 1989) T-711 and T-713
 *  BAe Hawk T.Mk.66 (1987-2002): The armament program 87 were 19 (U-1251 - U-1270) procured aircraft, one (U- 1256) was lost in the Aletsch region 1990. 2008 18 machines sold to  Finland
 * Dassault Mirage III
 *  Dassault Mirage IIIC (1962-1999): In 1962, a Mirage IIIC was bought (registration number J-2201) which for the licensed system testing and missile deployment as test aircraft used.
 *  Dassault Mirage IIIRS (1964-2003): The Mirage IIIRS (18 pieces), enrollment R-2101 to R-2118, is the reconnaissance version of the IIIS.
 *  Dassault Mirage IIIS (1964-1999): The Mirage IIIS (36 pieces), registration J-2301 to J-2336, is a Switzerland erische development of the Mirage IIIC. It has among other things a new radar, canards (from 1988) of SF Emmen (today RUAG Aerospace) as well as chaff and flare launchers installed. It was originally planned to purchase more than 100 aircraft of this type. The quota but had to be shorted together because of massive lending excesses (Mirage Affair).
 *  Dassault Mirage IIIBS (1964-2003) version of the double seats MirageIIIS (4 pieces) 2 aircraft were lost in accidents. The machines were first up as U-2001 U-2004 Enrolled, the remaining 2 units received later the revised enrollment J-2001 and J-2004.
 *  Dassault Mirage IIIDS (1983-2003) version of the double seats MirageIIIS (2 units) as a substitute for the 2 crashed MirageIIIBS. The enrollment has been changed from U-2011 and U-2012 to J-2011 and J-2012. A MirageIIIDS (Ex.J-2012) with the civil registration HB-RDF is now in flyable condition in possession of the Musée Clin d'Ailes ESPACE PASSION in Payerne. Against appropriate payment (about CHF10.000) is a PAX flight possible.
 * Hawker Hunter
 * Hawker Hunter F.Mk.58 / F.Mk.58A - Fighter Bomber (1958-1994): The fighter version, the Hawker Hunter F.Mk.58 F.Mk.6 is an improved version and was finally assembled at the aircraft factory in Emmen. It was purchased in three tranches and F.Mk.58A F.Mk.58 total of 152, part of which used F.Mk.6 machines of RAF were (J-4000 to J-. 4152).
 * Hawker Hunter T.Mk.68 - Coach (1975-1994): The Hawker Hunter was T.Mk.68 the Hunter trainer variant and was purchased directly from the manufacturer. The machines were converted F.Mk.6 (singles), which for the Swedish Flygvapnet were converted to T.Mk.50 doubles for Switzerland and the standard of T.Mk.66. A total of eight T.Mk.68 were purchased, which were all used Swedish machines. (J-4201 to J-4208).
 * FFA P-16 (1955-1960) delivered in the development and the planned procurement of 100 hunting bombers FFA P-16. The prototypes wer also testet by Swiss Air Force military pilots from various military airfields (Dübendorf, Sion and a cavern airfield) flew out and checked to ensure their suitability for troops. After the 2 crash of a machine of this type already approved procurement of 100 units has been canceled. Those who remained (J-3002 was scrapped) 2 planes of the 5 P-16 were enrolled in civil and returned to the manufacturer FFA. Matriculation J-3001 to J-3005 (J-3006 only fuselage secements finishet at the time of canceling)
 *  De Havilland Vampire DH.100 (1949-1990): The De Havilland DH.100 Vampire fighter aircraft was the first jet powered aircraft of the Swiss Air Force. While enjoying it no airborne radar or missile but an upgrade from a Martin-Baker ejection seat.
 * 4 units of type "Vampire" DH-100 Mk.1 (originally 3 copies as testing machines. Crashed As one obtains another.) (J-1001 to J-1004)
 * 178 units of type "Vampire" DH-100 Mk.6 (3 later assembled from spare parts) (J-1005 to J-1082 and J-1101 to J-1200).
 * 39 aircraft of the type "Vampire" DH-115 (U-1201 to U-1239)
 * De Havilland DH112 Venom (1949-1983): The De Havilland DH.112 Venom fighter-bombers were fundamentally improved vampires with a slightly different tail, wing tanks and a standard ejector seat.
 * 126 type aircraft, "Venom" DH-112 Mk.1 (J-1501 to J-1625 and J-1650)
 * 100 type aircraft, "Venom" Mk.4 DH-112 (J-1701 to J-1800)
 * 24 type aircraft, "Venom" MK.1R DH-112 (J-1626 to J-1649)
 * Dornier Do 27 (1958 - 2005) The Swiss Air Force purchased seven machines type Do27H2 for aerial application, 2 machines were given a civil registration, but spähter was the HB-HAD in V-607 changed. (V-601 to V-607 and HB-HAC).
 *  North American P-51D "Mustang" (1948-1958): 1948 130 units at a price of U.S. $ 4000 were - bought..
 *  North American AT-6 Texan (Harvard) Along with the P-51D Mustang 40 of these aircraft from the Canadian Air Force Surplus stocks were purchased. Enrollment: U-301 - U-340. Eying out 1968th
 * Pilatus P-3 (1956 - 1995) The Swiss Air Force purchased the prototype of Pilatus (A-801) and 72 more of these 2 seater school / training aircraft (A-801 to A- 873).
 * Pilatus P-2 The Swiss Air Force had a total of 54 of these Schul-/Trainingsflugzeuge. (U-102 to U-128 U-132 to U-157).
 * Piper PA-18 Super Cub (1948 - 1975) 6 aircrafts, the first 2 before enrollment KAB-101 and KAB-102 had (V-651 and V-656)
 * 1201 North Norécrin I (1948 - 1952) V-653 Civil HB-HOI. Same identifier as the first Piper Super Cub PA-18-150
 * North NC.850 Norvigie (1949-1950) Imatrikulation KAB-103 has been tested for a short time by the former KTA but went back to France
 * Siebel Si 204 (1945 -1955) Matriculation B-3
 * Potez 63 (1938 - 1944). B-1 and B-2 (B-1 only as HB-HAs, B-2 only as HB-HAS)
 * Junkers Ju 52/3m (1939 - 1981) A-701 to A-703 Two machines since 1983, the HB-HOT is since 1985 and to date (2011) part of the in 1982 Established JU-AIR AIR FORCE CENTER at Dübendorf.
 * Nardi FN-315 (1944 - 1948), A-290 and A-291, the A-290 was later given the civil registration HB-DEF, then I-VILD.
 * Fieseler Fi 156 Storch (1940-1963): The Fieseler storks were used for cargotransport as well as contact, observation and medical aircraft. Admissions A-96 to A-100 of which the A-96 was requisitioned civilian machine (HB-ARU).
 * De Havilland DH98 (1944 - 1954) B-4 & B-5 B-4 was the first as E-42 Imatrikuliert, was also used for pilot training for Swissair with HB-IMO imatrikuliert. Later scrapped for spare parts. The B-5 was as flying test stand for the swiss Maba engine of sulzer used for the [Federal [Flugzeugwerke Emmen N-20]]. The B-5 was then used as a core element of the airfield firefighters and destroyed.
 * WLM-1 (1951) 2 gliders WLM-1 U-1 and U-2 (Civil HB-551 and HB-552)
 * Messerschmitt Bf 109 (1938-1949):
 * 10 aircraft of the type Bf 109 D-1 "David," J-301 to J-310
 * 88 aircraft of the type Bf 109 E-3 "Emil" (of which 8 machines in license-built)
 * 2 units of type Bf 109 F-4 "Fritz"
 * 13 aircraft of the type Bf 109 G-6 "Gustav"
 * 1 machine of the type Bf 109 G-14 "Gustav"
 * Messerschmitt Bf 108 B-typhoon (1938 - 1959) 15 pieces, A-201 to A-215
 *  Morane-Saulnier D-3800 (1940-1959)
 * 82 Morane D-3800 Registration: J-1 - J-84
 * 207 Morane D-3801 Registration: J-191 - J-297
 * 13 Morane D-3802 Registration: J-401 - J-404, J-406 - J414
 * 1 Morane D-3803 Registration: J-405
 * Federal Konstruktionswerkstätte K + W [[EKW C-36 C-3603 (1942 - 1987) C-401 to C-560 is a large part of these aircraft was later provided instead of a piston engine with a Turboprop.
 * Stinson L-5 Sentinel (1944 - 1945) A-96 civil After World War enrolled as HB-TRY. This machine now flies back to the original colors of World War II, including the red and white stripes of neutrality.
 * Bücker Bü 133 Young Masters (1937-1968), the Swiss Air Force purchased 52 of these single-seat aircraft for the acrobatics and air combat training. (U-49 to U-100). In the Aviation Museum in Dübendorf is issued one press. "The Old Eagles, Swiss Bücker Squadron" flies with 5 original aircraft of which 4 the yellow livery of the Air Force carry ann various airshows.
 * Bücker Bü 131 Jungmann (1936-1971), the Swiss Air Force purchased 84 (A-1 through A-84) this lightweight 2-seater training and exercise airplanes. Another 10 aircraft were requisitioned by aero clubs and received enrollments A-85 to A-94.

Is this relevant?
Not every part is, in my opinion, relevant. Our friend User:FFA P-16 on the other hand seems to think that every detail about the Swiss Air Force is relevant. So I hope to get some independent opinions about the relevancy of:
 * 1) Aircraft serial numbering
 * 2) Axalp
 * 3) 100th Anniversary

Hopefully, this saves us a few conflicts. The Banner talk 19:21, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * To have written down aircraft serial Numbers of every aircraft is not important. But the explonation  how the system work  (like J =Fighter, or  J-30XX = F-5Es and so one is helpfull. , Axalp yes i think it is important,  it has its history back in WW2, It is the only place in europe who everyone (also non military persons and non swiss people) can see life  air to ground firering , its as far as i knew the only airshow (fighterjets, ,patrouille Suisse, PC-7 team, PC-21, Superpuma, SAR & firefighting demonstration) who took place  in the mountains.. the show, the vistors, all on mountains.. and this  usualy is always 2 days in october.

The 100year is  a  short 1 or 2 sentens worth, because it was on one hand 100years swiss air force 50years patrouille suisse, 25 years PC-7 Team.. all in one. Also with two weekends full airshowprogramm and on every day between this weekends  shows of all 4 Teams of the swiss air force it is still the biggest airshow in europe (usualy airshows are  held  1 day   to  3 days (fr sa su) FFA P-16 (talk) 19:49, 21 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Just my opinions:
 * Aircraft serial numbering: If this were the USAF it would be unassailable. I'd say keep the table of letter prefixes but dump the complicated numbering.
 * Axalp: I'd say there's enough coverage out there to make it notable and the section is about the right length. Could do with much improvement, better sourcing, etc.
 * 100th Anniversary: Not significant. We all have anniversaries. Giving the dates on which each arm was formed in the History section would be better.
 * So, kind of a draw at 1 1/2 each.
 * One more for the pot:
 * Air policing has just appeared. I can see no encyclopedic value in this whatsoever.
 * &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:59, 21 October 2015 (UTC)


 * But the numbers made it possible (by the current aircraft) to identify the Type and Subtype (for eg, F/A-18C or F/A-18D). The Air 14 was not only an anniversary it was for 3 anniversary.. also  if an Air Force  has an anniversary it is held 1 to 3 days  (like the air94, air04 and in 2024 the air24), but this one was going on for 9 days. And was because of this 9 days (and air-displays on every day) the biggest airshow in Europe.


 * Air Policing is very important it is one of the main tasks of the Swiss Air Force it is made more or less every day, not much other Air Forces  do this so often like the Swiss Air Force  (for eg. Italy, Germany, France, Austria) some airforces  don't do air policing at all (eg, Thai Air Force). Just in the last 9 days  3 such air Policing missions gave  at 3 diffrend  days  reports to the biggest online news  in Switzerland 1., 2.(Live Mission on the Russian Tu-204) 3.(Live-Mission on the US Aircraft), on the US  Aircraft.   The Live Mission on the Tu-204  made it  (because of whiner Sergei Naryshkin) this got it to the Medias in Russia, Fance, Germany and so one.. may it is better if it is here written so people will  knew next time that this is usual in Switzerland    FFA P-16 (talk) 05:24, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * What makes you think that the Thai Air Force does not do air policing? They have fighter units with an interceptor-role, just what is happening during air policing. Not mentioning the word does not mean that they do do it. The Banner talk 12:58, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

If an Air Force has Fighter jets it doesn't means they do air Policing in the same way like the Swiss Air Force do. the THai Air Force does NO Live-Missions.. they dont observe aircraft or Identfy Aircraft  (that is what a Live-Mission is) they only do Hot-Missions. Also like I sayd the German Air Force does Live-Missions only  on Combat Aircraft  but they don't do it on Goverment Aircraft  /State Ac.FFA P-16 (talk) 14:44, 22 October 2015 (UTC)


 * In fact, air policing is so common that many news outlets don't even mention it any more. So why should the Swiss activity be notable at all?
 * And why should an encyclopaedia want to identify all air plane numbers? It is good enough to know the number of planes from each type, but their actual numbers is to much detail, not relevant for the big audience. The Banner talk 09:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

No air policeing like the swiss air force it do is not common for all air forces,  many air forces don't do  Live-Missions.. they do only Hot-Missions.. and as you can see even Russian politicans, don't know about this. so it is on the right place here. I din't found a other place on Wikipedia who explain live and hot-missions. FFA P-16 (talk) 11:42, 22 October 2015 (UTC)


 * So, what is needed to keep this material are sufficient reliable sources WP:RS, which state these facts, to demonstrate their significance. Some individual comments: Any anniversary of several events will always be an anniversary of those same events. The fact that they coincide is part of the history and does not justify highlighting any one anniversary date. If it was the biggest airshow in Europe that year, then focus on that - but again, it is part of the history. Air policing is important and complex - but the article on the Swiss Air Force is the wrong place to explain that. There is nothing exceptional about the Swiss experience, and all those numbers are just way too much detail. &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:20, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why we should not have 1 or 2 sentences about the air14 on the swiss air force page, it was on one hand the 100year "party" of the swiss air force, but also one airshow in a line of other airshows who are held on a regular base by the swiss air force.. MAKS (air show), or RIAT have even theyr own pages.

Air policeing like the swiss air force it do is not common for all air forces, many air forces don't do Live-Missions.. they do only Hot-Missions.. and as you can see even Russian the Russians don't knew about the regular Live-Missions who the swiss air force is doing this.So it is on the right place here. The numbers give a good impression about  how important  this is .. every day such Live-Missions in such a tiny country like  switzerland is notable. I don't found any other place on Wikipedia who explain live and hot-missions. And iff we create a new page who is about  air policeing how can we show the differend handling of this topic by all the differend Nations? Is the US Air force doing air policing.. I guess yes.. what is with the USCG. US Marines, Navy are they doing this too.? I don't knew. The Germans do air policing Live-missions only on fighter Aircraft but not on Government flights..(But I can not give a referenc on this because I knew it only from speaking with a pilot about this topic about german Live-Missions). If we do a page about air policeing I need much help if it handles not only the swiss air forces part. FFA P-16 (talk) 12:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I do know that the British Royal Air Force and the Swedish Flygvapnet both do a lot of passive interception and following of rogue aircraft, mainly of Russian origin. It must be common all along the Russian Federation's borders and probably among other nations faced with aggressive neighbours. It really is nothing special to any air force. &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:01, 22 October 2015 (UTC)


 * @steelpillow yes but this are allready Hot-Missions and usualy only on Military Aircraft and often over international air space weher everyone has the right to fly (also russian Bombers).  Live-Missions are on Aircrafts who have a permission to enter the National airspace (in this case Switzerland &Lichtenstein). Are the Brits and Swediish also for Live Mission on ANY State Aircraft?  Do they Check Italian Guardia Finace Aircraft, the French Civil Aviation, German Police Helicopter,  the Presidential Airbus 330?  Does People knew this? FFA P-16 (talk) 15:10, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * @Steelpillow,, I saw you have deleted out the explanation about air Policing, about Live- Missions, Hot-Missions.  I think we should have an explanation about this on wikipedia. I saw that many people don't knew about it or have a wrong idea about it.  Don't know what happend at a Live-Mission, what is the reason for a Live-Mission.  Also  often they think a Hot-Mission happend only if a Terrorist is on board of an Airliner, they don't knew that  a VFR Hobby Pilot  who enters  a TMA or CTR of an Airport without permission, or a switcht off Transponder, a crash-beacon, A Transponder Code 7600 (Radiofailure)  or even an Airliner who not react on the ATC's calls  can trigger a Hot-Mission..  I think this topic is important and interesting enough to have it here on wikipedia. Air Policing (differend Cases9  only in german youtube about tasks of the swiss air force  english  a Hot-Mission on a non aswering Aircraft   german onlyFFA P-16 (talk) 15:01, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It looks to me that even you don't knew the differenc between a live and a hot mission.. so i think it is realy important to have this topic on wikipedia. FFA P-16 (talk) 15:13, 22 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I'll say this one last time. All Air Forces police their national airspace. There is nothing to suggest that this is special to the Swiss Air Force. Maybe you can find somewhere else on Wikipedia to discuss the more notable ins and outs of air policing, but not here.
 * If you think my descriptions of what the SAF evidently call live and hot missions are wrong, then by all means suggest more accurate ones - but not long ones! &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:02, 22 October 2015 (UTC)


 * It don't have to be only about air Policing of the swiss Air Force.  And it is still a differend  between Live-Missions and Hot-Missions.. yes all Airforces do Hot-Missions. But  not all do Live-Missions and  even this differend is important. BTW Hot-Missions are everystime  with armt aircraft.. but  Live-Missions are made with or whitout armt fighter. I don't found any article about this topic in the english wikipedia. I think this topic  is important enough to have an article on wikipeda (in general, not relatet to a specific air force). So people can see  what for diffrend cases exist and how it work. FFA P-16 (talk) 16:15, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * That would be a different discussion about a different article. &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:52, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes,I knew. I would like it if we have such a page who explain the Topic Air Policing .. so we don't need to explain it on a specific Air Force page.FFA P-16 (talk) 18:32, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You could research its notability and, if that goes well, then create it yourself. &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:10, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

O.K. Thanks. FFA P-16 (talk) 05:10, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Some cleaning on this Talkpage?
I think we have here on this talkpage  a lot stuff who is no more needed I think we could delet a lot of it. ? FFA P-16 (talk) 12:41, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * No need to delete, but I will put an archive bot on the page. The Banner talk 12:43, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, very good idea of you with the archive bot. FFA P-16 (talk) 12:50, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

When will the bot start? Is it worth to fix here formations errors, if they go to archive?FFA P-16 (talk) 05:19, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I think it runs two or three times a week. And yes, unsigned parts need to be signed quickly. The Banner talk 06:02, 23 October 2015 (UTC)