Talk:Swoon hypothesis/Archive 1

Untitled
OK so Jesus was scourged, crucified, stabbed in the side, wrapped in cloth from head to toe, put in a cave for three days, and just suddenly woke up and walked out of the tomb that was guarded by 120 roman soldiers and was blocked by a 2000 pound boulder? No jesus was dead but he was ressurected.Crion 18:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

--Other people survived crucifixion long before Jesus. The mode of death on the cross was usually that a person would suffer for 3 whole days, and then the Romans would break your legs so that you could no longer draw breath. In the gospels, Jesus is said to die after only 6 hours (or 9 depending on which gospel), and the very same Roman to declare him dead was the one who said he "truly is the son of God" only hours earlier. He was given a numbing agent for the pain and then his disciples carried over half a ton of healing herbs, not embalming herbs, into his tomb later (all of this is in the actual Bible). Whether you believe it or not, it's suspicious to say the least. Factually, it's a sound theory, and if your opinion is skewed by faith, that's really not what Wikipedia is for in the first place. 74.70.171.36 16:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * When Jesus was stabbed in the side, blood and "water" came out. When you are crucified, fluid builds up in the chest cavity.  This is the "water" that came out.  What is telling is the blood.  When you die, if you are upright, blood pools in the lower exteremeties.  Without a heartbeat, there is no pressure to force blood out of a wound. Because blood came out when Jesus was stabbed, his heart was beating. Plus, the release of the "water" probably helped him to survive as this would have released pressure on his heart. Plus, embalming was not a practice of Hebrews. That is why, to this day, Hebrews must be buried within 24 hours of death. Any herbs spoken of would be healing herbs. Also, Jesus wasn't buried, he was placed in a cave owned by Joseph of Aramathea, a wealthy man who could afford to do the bribing to save his friend, Jesus.63.146.238.102 (talk) 03:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Blood and water
Haughton wrote that the description in the Gospel of John of the flowing of "blood and water" after the soldier pierced Jesus' side with a spear was extremely unusual: to me it equals to state, that Jesus was the only man crucified or even the only man pierced to death with spear. Given that crucifixion was an extremely popular form of execution in the times of Jesus, and the spear, sword, lance, etc. were typical weapons (as pistols, rifles, automatic rifles, rockets, grenades, etc are now), it seems unlikely to me that anybody living in the neighborhood, especially the person who was educated to the level allowing him to write the account would NOT EVER witness crucifixion AND piercing of the victim's body in the case of ANOTHER man, not Jesus himself. Therefore, though I'm not a 'scholar' or any other 'expert' on Bible or medical sciences, using such argument to prove death of Jesus seems implausible to me. Critto (talk) 20:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The individuals above forgot to mention that not only was Jesus crucified and hung on the cross for six hours, but spikes were driven through both of his hands and feet, which obviously causes massive blood loss. The majority of three day crucifixions the writer above mentioned were crucifixions that were done by binding an individual's feet and hands to a cross and leaving them upright for three days, spikes were rarely used. Jesus was also scourged amd whipped with whips that had glass and metal scraps attached them. These whips were used for the sole purpose of ripping an individuals flesh off their back. Jesus was also beaten horriby, to an unrecognizable state, which is noted in the Bible.

The Roman Guards
I'd just like to let everyone know that I edited the Roman Guard section for tone, neutrality, made it more concise and reorganized some of the sentence structure and grammar. Pstanton 08:56, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and there aren't any citations for that section, if anyone has time to put in footnotes and such Pstanton 08:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pstanton (talk • contribs)

Islamic Perspective
I have added an Islamic Perspective Section to the article. The Swoon Hypothesis is very popular among Islamic missionaries. Ahmed Deedat has been instrumental in promoting this hypothesis far and wide in the Muslim World through 1) his book Crucifixion and Cruci-fiction 2) his video by the same name and 3) two televised debates on the same subject with christian contemporaries. With Robert Douglas, PhD (Zwimmer Institute) at the University of Kansas on Nov 6th, 1986. and with Wesley H. Wakefield (Bishop General of the Bible Holiness Movement of Vancouver) at the Maple Leaf Gardens Toronto, ON on July 17th, 1994. Dungsniffer (talk) 01:36, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Original research
Wikipedia's policy on original research states:

"Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. All material added to articles on Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable published source, even if not actually attributed in the text. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions."

The section of the swoon hypothesis titled Arguments for the swoon hypothesis is a fantastic and prime example of why this rule is in place. The entire argument smacks of original research -- in fact it is certainly original research, as it cites no source except the Bible, a primary source, and one which the argument goes to great pains to contradict. There are no other references given, and none have been added in the past year, despite warnings. In addition, the summary section above it contains all the relevant information to the argument, with no added "fluff" and inexpert original research.

Wikipedia's policy means this section has to be deleted. Encyclopedic content must be verifiable... as it says right below where I type. If anyone would like to replace it with a real expert argument (if such exists) you are welcome, but please add references!! Awayforawhile (talk) 13:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * ==Arguments for the Swoon Hypothesis==
 * Arguments favoring the Swoon Hypothesis broadly fall into three distinct parts.


 * ===PART ONE: JESUS ON THE CROSS===
 * Precisely how physically punishing was Jesus' experience on the cross?
 * ====Was Jesus 'Nailed' to the Cross?====
 * Two pieces of evidence suggest Jesus may have simply been tied to the cross and his weight supported with the use of a 'Sadile' . An occurrence likely to raise his chances of survival. Firstly, only the Gospel of John specifically mentions Jesus being 'nailed to the cross' (John 20:20-27). Secondly, Jesus' two crossmates do not appear to be nailed to their respective crosses, for they are seen jesting Jesus along with the crowd. This leads one to conclude that surely two persons suffering from the excruciating pain of being 'nailed to crosses' an hour or so earlier would not have the mental alertness and their 'sense of irony' intact to the point of joining a crowd in reviling a third crossmate. As a result, its possible, they (and thus Jesus too) are not nailed to their respective crosses.


 * "And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way." Matthew 27:44


 * ====Brevity of Time on the Cross====
 * Having been on the cross for only 6 hours, even Pilate marvelled at Jesus being dead so soon. Crucifixion in ancient Rome was meant to be a long torturous process and not a quick form of death.


 * ====Other 'Crossmates' Were Alive====
 * At the end of the day Friday, the death of Jesus' two crossmates had to be accelerated with the breaking of their legs. This implies that they were indeed alive at that point. The same could be true about Jesus at that point in time.


 * ====State of Jesus' Circulatory System====
 * "But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water." John 19:34


 * Proponents of the Swoon Hypothesis argue that if indeed Jesus was dead on the cross, why would a spear poked into his side to check his status yield a gush of blood and water? Laws of Pallor mortis would suggest otherwise. (see also Pleural effusion).


 * ====Legs Were not Broken====
 * Since Jesus was presumed dead on the cross on Friday evening, his legs were not broken. If Jesus was indeed alive at this point and simply in coma or "swooned", this remarkable event of leaving his legs intact would greatly enhance his chances of survival when he came about later on.


 * "Since it was the day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the sabbath (for that sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him; but when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs." John 19:31-33


 * ===PART TWO: SAFELY TRANSPORTING JESUS===
 * The ease and secrecy with which the 'fainted Jesus' could safely be transported to a nearby sanctuary without being caught by the Roman authorities or the Jews would have a direct bearing on his chances of survival.


 * ====Thunderstorm and Earthquake====
 * The synoptic Gospels mention the occurrence of thunderstorms and earthquakes at the time of the crucifixion. The Gospel of Matthew describes their intensity and morbidity in graphic and somewhat incredulous detail.


 * "And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.  When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe, and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!" Matthew 27:51-54


 * The other three gospels, however, do not mention the raising of the dead. Regardless, this is surely a most fantastic, memorable and frightening event, and certainly frightening enough to disperse any crowd watching the crucifixion event and thus allow the breathing body of Jesus to be pulled down in relative secrecy and safety.


 * ====Pilate's Lack of Incentive to See Jesus Dead====
 * The lack of keenness of the authorities to see Jesus dead would only add to his chances of survival. Certainly Pilate had little incentive to ensure the death of Jesus, he not only found Jesus not guilty, his wife as well was shown a dream in which she was told that no harm should come to him.


 * "Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent word to him, 'Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much over him today in a dream.'" Matthew 27.19 [[Image:Empty Tomb at Resthaven Memorial Park, Lubbock, TX IMG 0020.JPG|200px|right|thumb|Replica of the Empty Tomb at Resthaven Memorial Park in [[Lubbock, Texas|Lubbock]], Texas]


 * ====Wealthy Secret Disciple on Hand====
 * A wealthy disciple Joseph of Arimathea who had the means and facilities to whisk away a faint and weak Jesus to some sanctuary, preferably nearby adds immeasurably to his chances of survival. Note how Joseph persuades Pilate to let him take down the body.


 * "Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb where no one had ever been laid. So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, as the tomb was close at hand, they laid Jesus there." John 19:41-42


 * ====Big Roomy Chamber====
 * To survive and recuperate from a traumatic crucifixion experience while being hidden away as a "dead body", a tomb with a big roomy chamber and a heavy stone enclosure would be the best case scenario for Jesus' survival. Such a place would have to be roomy enough to allow a weak Jesus to breathe easy and secure enough to prevent others from being able to easily spot the body of Jesus. And we are told in the Gospels that this is precisely the scenario Jesus found himself in.


 * ===PART THREE: JESUS ON SUNDAY MORNING===
 * Further evidence of Jesus surviving the crucifixion is provided by the perplexing behavior of Mary and Jesus on Sunday morning.
 * ====Mary at the Tomb Early Sunday====
 * We are told that Mary Magdalene had totally forgotten (Luke 24:7) about Jesus' supposed promise "to rise from the dead" as mentioned elsewhere in the Gospels. As a result, one may conclude that when she appears at Jesus' tomb on Sunday, she is either 1) looking for a Jesus she knew was alive when she left on Friday evening or 2) she is there to pay homage to a dead and buried Jesus.


 * "But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices which they had prepared. And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they went in they did not find the body. While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel; and as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living among the dead? Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise." And they remembered his words." Luke 24:1-8


 * ====Mary's Unusual Supply of Spices====
 * As such, Mary Magdalene arrives to the tomb carrying "prepared spices", which would be of no practical use to a dead body. Especially since the 'dead body' of Jesus had already been applied with ceremonial herbs on Friday itself (John 19:39-40). This gives credence to the possibility that she is instead bringing 'spices' to massage and heal a swooned and injured Jesus, she had last seen alive on Friday evening.


 * "Nicode'mus also, who had at first come to him by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds' weight. They took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews." John 19:39-40


 * The possibility of Mary Magdalene seeking a swooned and living Jesus is further supported by her unusual panic and angst upon discovering Jesus' body to be missing.


 * "John 20.11 But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb; 20.12 and she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. 20.13 They said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him." 20.14 Saying this, she turned round and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus. 20.15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom do you seek?" Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away."


 * ====Jesus' First Words====
 * "Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned and said to him in Hebrew, "Rab-bo'ni!" (which means Teacher). Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."Mary Mag'dalene went and said to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"; and she told them that he had said these things to her." (John 20:16-18)


 * In the above passage, Jesus' first remarks after supposedly 'rising from the dead' are somewhat perplexing given the circumstances below:


 * Jesus is supposed to have just died and come back to life, a supernatural occurrence.
 * He is now meeting one of his close companions, in this instance Mary Magdalene.
 * Mary has no recollection of Jesus' supposed promise to "die and come back to life."
 * One assumes Jesus is aware of this fact that Mary has no recollection of his supposed promise.


 * And yet Jesus makes no mention of his miraculous resurrection! His first words to a startled and overwhelmed Mary are "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father". The lack of mention, however precursory, of his most stupendous miraculous resurrection at this point of first contact with one of his close disciples is quite problematic. It adds credence to the Swoon hypothesis, suggesting that Jesus knew Mary was there at the tomb looking for his living breathing body.Dungbeetle (talk) 08:45, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Sloppy language
Parts of this article is written in very sloppy language. A particular problem is the repeated use of incorrect punctuation, which results in incomplete clauses being written as stand-alone sentences. This is not only grammatically incorrect, but also confuses the reader and reduces the cohesion of the text.

Example:

Two pieces of evidence suggest Jesus may have simply been tied to the cross and his weight supported with the use of a "Sadile". An occurrence likely to accelerate his chances of survival. Firstly, none of the gospels specifically mention Jesus being 'nailed to the cross'.

And secondly, Jesus' two [...] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.77.187.83 (talk) 17:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, needs clean up. History2007 (talk) 18:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Please stop to think a bit logical!
This page is a shame! The Shroud of Turin clearly shows Jesus dead with a chest wound the width of an adult palm of hand - a mark left by the typical roman legionaire lance blade from first century BC. That kind of massive chest wound is not survivable, not even with modern E.R. care. What is this article about then? Please be sensible! 82.131.210.163 (talk) 17:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, that presupposes that the Shroud is real... and hey, what about miracles? DS (talk) 18:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we shouldn't presuppose that the shroud is real. But I think there's another question to consider - how are Thomas's words explained?  "Until I see the nail marks in his hands ... I will not believe."  68.32.94.161 (talk) 02:14, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Article here has nothing to do with that issue. History2007 (talk) 18:32, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Article quality
I have seen low quality articles, but this is really bad. Needs major clean up... Will tag for now History2007 (talk) 00:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)