Talk:Sybil Evers

Son's name?
Anyone have knowledge (and verification) of Abrahams' and Evers' son's name? Softlavender (talk) 01:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Never mind; it's Alan. Softlavender (talk) 06:07, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

New biography of Harold Abrahams is a small goldmine of info about Sybil
Running with Fire: The True Story of Harold Abrahams (2011), by Mark Ryan, is a wonderful resource. It's available on Kindle and paperback: (U.S.);  (UK). I bought the Kindle version to read on my computer while I wait for a hard copy to arrive. The Kindle version doesn't have page numbers so I'll probably wait till I get the hard copy to make any additions/edits to the article. Softlavender (talk) 03:56, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Update: I've finished reading the book, but I'm rather behind on Wiki matters; plus the book debunks several rumors about Harold Abrahams and Chariots of Fire, which articles probably take precedence (in terms of correcting or adding to) over Sybil's article. However, since the book is such an excellent resource on Sybil, I'm going to add it as a Further Reading section to this article for the moment, as it's an important adjunct for the curious, and since Chariots of Fire is so in vogue now there are probably many more people curious about her. Softlavender (talk) 22:55, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Second update: OK, I've made my first round of including new information. There's lots more about Sybil in the book, and she was also very busy with various things after she stopped performing regularly, but all of that stuff is spread throughout the book rather than concentrated on three pages. Softlavender (talk) 06:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Susanna in The Marriage of Figaro; Voice category
This is from Ryan (2012), p. 189:

By then [when Harold met Sybil at a school party, "early in 1934"] she had finished a two-year spell with the D’Oyly Carte and was alternating between the Webber-Douglas and the Chanticleer opera companies. ‘I think he had actually seen her performing,’ his nephew Tony explained. And a singer friend called Julia once wrote later to remind Sybil, ‘Do you remember telling me about your [first] meeting with Harold, when we were doing Figaro?’ In The Marriage of Figaro, Sybil usually played the part of Susanna (Maid to the Countess). The Figaro plot saw Sybil spurning the advances of the Count who, tired of his wife, pursues her maid Susanna. Sybil’s character is about to marry Figaro, which explains her unwillingness to do the Count’s bidding. It is an alluring role; and one critic described what Sybil brought to the part: ‘Figaro being what it is, a combination of “opera buffa” and sophisticated comedy of manners, those who perform it must be able not only to sing well but also to act well … For Susanna we have Miss Sybil Evers and she is entrancing. She also knows a thing or two about acting and oh, the difference to us!’


 * Anyway, it's a great review quote, but it's not sourced in the book. Also, it's great to know that Sybil sang in The Marriage of Figaro, but we don't have a precise date or venue. Therefore I'm not sure what to do with this information. If we include it, we could say "In the mid-1930s [or: in 1934], Evers sang Susanna in The Marriage of Figaro. One reviewer noted '....'" Softlavender (talk) 02:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyway, I went ahead and added it. Softlavender (talk) 05:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Looking at the whole of the information about Sybil, it's apparent that she sang soprano roles in addition to the mezzo roles she sang (at D'Oyly Carte). I haven't checked through all of the roles to see what fach they are, but, for instance, Susanna in The Marriage of Figaro is a lyric soprano role, and Susan in Hugh the Drover is a soprano. I think this is worth looking into and noting in the article. Softlavender (talk) 02:45, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Good work. I wouldn't sweat the voice category issue.  It is true that she mostly sang mezzo roles for D'Oyly Carte, and that the larger roles that she covered were certainly mezzos, but it is not terribly surprising that she could also sing subrette roles like Susanna, especially after she gained more experience and confidence as a singer.  Susanna is not terribly high.  Evers was not famous for any particular repertoire, so I think it is fair to say simply that she was a "singer" and let the roles that she sang speak for themselves.  I left a couple of hidden comments/questions for you in the article.  Also, is there a photo of Evers in the book that you could scan in?  You would have to upload it with a Fair use summary like the one we use for Martyn Green's photo. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:42, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * There is a fabulous photo of Sybil in the book -- unfortunately, I don't have a scanner and the third-world-type area I live in does not have a Kinko's or a store anymore that will do the scanning for me. I may be able to scare up a friend who has a scanner but the locals here are pretty low tech. We'll see what happens. Meanwhile if you or anyone with more tech capability wants to buy the book, or get it from the library, and scan it, please do. Softlavender (talk) 11:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Harold's "issues" prior to marriage
Just a note: It's a matter of proveable and self-admitted fact that Harold had serious issues and fears regarding marriage and commitment -- and also some extremely old-fashioned and chauvinistic (although not sexist) views of what a woman's role is in marriage (which didn't sit well with the professionally active Sybil). In point of fact, he went into psychotherapy from September 1935 through approximately December 1936 with pre-eminent psychiatrist Dr. Jane Suttie, widow and colleague of Dr. Ian Suttie and co-author with him of The Origins of Love and Hate. I'm saying this because I don't feel it's an "according to his biographer" issue, and I think that ought to be re-worded. In the meantime, however, I've found the exact pages in which these events are detailed in the book, and will add the page numbers as another footnote. Softlavender (talk) 13:16, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the page numbers. If something is a well-known fact, then it should be discussed in more than one source.  If you can show multiple sources, or even if Ryan gives multiple specific sources in his footnotes, then we can name them in the footnote, and we could then certainly remove the "according to" qualification.  If the sources are clear, you could also note that psychotherapy helped him to overcome his issues.  All the best!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:50, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * OK thanks, that makes sense. One of the drawbacks to the Ryan book is that there are no notes and no bibilography. There are some occasional citations within sentences. But this psychotherpay stuff, all being very intimate and personal, is mainly documented by lengthy direct quotes from letters between Harold and Sybil, plus some remembrances of his children and nephew via author interviews -- probaby not mentioned anywhere publically. So I think what you say is appropriate. Softlavender (talk) 14:47, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * By the way, here's a May 2012 newspaper article from the Daily Express which mentions the above: (middle of bottom part). I've known about it for some time but hadn't considered using it as a citation or link in anything because it gives the wrong year of the Abrahams/Evers marriage (and also the wrong hometown of Ian Charleson). Now that I look at it again, I see it actually is also quoting stuff from the Wikipedia article on Chariots of Fire -- stuff which I have since removed because the Ryan book debunks it. *sigh* I hate when mistakes in Wikipedia -- especially those I may have inadvertently perpetuated -- get repeated everywhere. I've even seen people's memories get fooled by Wikipedia -- Chariots producer David Puttnam has been telling everyone this year that he found the Eric Liddell storyline in 1978, simply because that's what it said in Wikipedia. I realized that was another Wiki gaffe after reading the Ryan book -- it was actually mid 1977! Softlavender (talk) 16:39, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * If we know that it contains lots of errors, we should not use it. And it doesn't really add anything, since it is simply quoting Ryan; and so it is not really a second source for the info - just more Ryan.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:25, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Dating Sybil's involvement with the BBC "Wireless Singers"
I've had the deuce of a time trying to figure out the approximate year Sybil may have begun work with the Wireless Singers. Here's the entire passage in the Mark Ryan book, page 189:

When Sybil was asked to look back on her life before she met Harold [which was "early in 1934"], she airbrushed [her first husband] Brack right out of it. ‘Well, I was a singer. I trained at the Royal College of Music. I used to sing in light opera. In fact I was employed by the BBC for some time, second soprano of the Wireless Singers before the war; that was in the old Savoy Hill days. And then after that I used to work fairly often for their music production department, which gave performances of light operas.’

Things to keep in mind:

-- Softlavender (talk) 15:07, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The Wireless Singers were established in 1927.
 * Sybil was born in 1904; made a debut of sorts in 1924; sang in that "musical fantasy" at Daly's Theatre in 1927; worked with D'Oyly Carte March 1930 to September 1931.
 * Ryan places this paragraph after some paragraphs about her youth and her 1926 marriage to Brack, and before a paragraph mentioning her 1930-1931 D'Oyly Carte stint and her 1934 children's play.
 * "Savoy Hill" was the early residence of the BBC, and it closed (moved) in May 1932. So if Sybil was a Wireless Singer at the Savoy Hill location only, it could only have been sometime between 1927 and May 1932. (Although in point of fact she doesn't say her stint was only at Savoy Hill.)
 * I am puzzled by the "before the war" part, regarding the Wireless Singers. "The war" started September 1939; the Blitz started September 1940 and the Wireless Singers actually moved out of London because the building that housed them was bombed. But good grief why is she mentioning the war in the same sentence as Savoy Hill? That's a whole 8 to 13 years later!
 * How long, then is "for some time"?
 * And when is "after that" (for the "music production department")? After the war ended? After her stint as a Wireless Singer? After Savoy Hill closed and the studio moved? After she became a soloist rather than an ensemble songer? (That's not a bad guess.)
 * And what does that last sentence mean anyway? Does "work" mean "perform"? We do have the empirical evidence that she performed in the BBC's televised Beggar's Opera in 1937, so that tends to coroborate that it probably means perform, and it gives us a bit of a timeframe for when that period was.
 * In any case, the reason I'm spelling this all out here is that it's entirely possible that Sybil started her work with the Wireless Singers before 1930, which is why I had written it as "By the early 1930s, ...". Right now the article says "Beginning in the early 1930s, ..." although we don't know for sure that's when she began.


 * I think that, where the source is not crystal clear, the safer path to take is not to make too much of something. If something is very important, there will be independent discussion of it in the press.  This rather breezy remark by Evers may over-emphasize her involvement with the BBC.  Until we have more evidence, I think that we should not say too much about her involvement in the Wireless Singers.  I'll put it back to "By the early 1930's" and take out "fairly often", which might only mean "more than twice".  If this was a big deal, there should be newspaper articles or other evidence about it.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * OK thanks. It would be quite nice if The Times archive were viewable for free online, as I imagine Sybil's name might pop up in it for more info than we currently have or can tell from the Ryan book and Google snippets. I don't feel like shelling out $ to them at the moment and I don't think I currently have a source to use it for free. Softlavender (talk) 15:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No rush. Some day we can pop into a library, or an editor will help us who has access to British newspaper databases or BBC archival info.  All the best!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:51, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Removal of references
Why did you remove the two references from the article? These references do not appear elsewhere and should not be lost without explanation. A sentence certainly can have two references if each helps to verify information. Please explain, and I would request that you do not delete them until you can explain so that other editors can understand why you wish to delete them. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:52, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Based on the fact that your question about their removal was in an edit summary, and the fact that on this page you have agreed that sources containing misinformation should not be cited, I didn't think removing the references I had originally placed in the article in 2010 was that serious and I replied to your question in my edit summary when I removed the references again. Both sources contain misinformation. The Atlanta Constitution article contains several errors of fact: It says Harold met Sybil in 1935 (they actually met in early 1934); it says he was not motivated by anti-Semitism (Harold stated on record at least two or three times that he was, and also that he experienced a lot of anti-Semitism at Repton and to a lesser degree at Cambridge and as an athlete in general); it says that had he been drug tested he probably would have been disqualified at the Olympics (not true as the mild "Easton Syrup" he took on that one day [mainly to calm his frazzled nerves] was a minor and acccepted part of athletics training then). In other words, the article is more sensationalistic than accurate. The Chapman resource, which I otherwise usually like (I own it and have read the Chariots section a number of times, but even it gets things wrong upon occasion) states that "they married in 1936 following Sybil's divorce from her first husband" (when her divorce from her first husband was in fact many years -- probably a decade -- earlier). Neither reference adds any new information, and both contain misinformation, and we already have a source for what they were originally used for. Softlavender (talk) 01:00, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you - that is much clearer. An edit summary is not an adequate way to explain the deletion of references that have already been restored by another editor.  However, the article is now missing a reference for the assertion that Abrahams and Evers met a decade after the time mentioned in the movie.  Neither ref 4 nor 19 covers it.  Also, please, be careful: Your edit summary says that you "replaced" the refs, but in fact you merely deleted them without putting in a new one.  I am sure it was just a slip of the pen, but that is very frustrating to see on Wikipedia.  Can you please put in a reference that shows that the Chariots of Fire is off by a decade with respect to the date of their meeting?  Thanks very much!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:32, 22 August 2012 (UTC)