Talk:Sybil Plumlee/Archive 1

Probably not notable
See this discussion. Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations. Cheers. Prhartcom (talk) 15:31, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up. I responded and I welcome others to join the discussion as well. Glad this may finally be discussed in detail and resolved. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:52, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, I am now going through the Oregonian archives to find more sources. If you think this work should be completed before nominating the article for Good status, I can put that on hold so we can continue to assess notability. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 17:07, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅ I have removed the GA nomination for now. I am pouring through Oregonian records for more info and I now see that questions have been raised below. Hoping this article can reach Good status at some point, but it is not there yet. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:11, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

has expressed doubts about notability before (though I would extend an invitation to look at the article again, since a few more sources have been added). , do you have any thoughts? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:32, 26 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes. Please see my comments in the next section. Finetooth (talk) 21:00, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Questions

 * I wonder if the opening sentence should include the phrase "at the time of her death" to clarify when she was "the oldest living former member of the city's police force." Someone else immediately became the oldest living former member at that instant.
 * My original text was changed when the article received a copy edit from the Guild of Copy Editors: see this diff. Not sure if "before her death" or "at the time of her death" is more appropriate. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:13, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * But, now that I think about it, isn't it still grammatically correct that she became the oldest surviving member, regardless of the fact that she lost the title when she died? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:30, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It's grammatically correct but vague and, IMHO, not especially significant. At the time of her death, she was the oldest. In 1930 someone else was the oldest. In 1890 someone else. After Plumlee died, someone else. Readers might well ask, so what? It may be worth including somewhere far down in a long text, but its appearance in the opening sentence suggests that there isn't a whole lot to say about Plumlee. This thinness raises the question of notability. The claim that she was a "pioneer" in law enforcement appears to rest solely on her gender. That her gender alone makes her a pioneer is a pretty thin claim, which someone might flag as "dubious". To be less thin, the article should include more connections (if any can be found) to issues beyond Plumlee's personal life. Is she actually more notable than any of the other five women on the "feminine pistol team"? Finetooth (talk) 20:43, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I re-worded the lead a bit, downplaying the significance of her becoming the oldest former member of PPB and emphasizing the female pioneer component. I am not sure I understand your comment about gender. Aren't there many women who are considered notable because they blazed paths in various fields? I am not sure how Plumlee is any different. Multiple sources recognize her for her work in a male-dominated field. I've not done any research about the other women in WPD, but I would hope that eventually there would be an article for each individual who was covered by enough reliable sources to meet WP:GNG. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 21:42, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, they are certainly notable if they blazed paths. That applies to first one down the path but maybe not to all who follow. Even though I think the article meets Wikipedia's broad notability guidelines, I'm not surprised that other editors have expressed doubts about notability. If I can find any other RSs with information about Plumlee, I will add them. Finetooth (talk) 03:21, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated. Another Believer  ( Talk ) 03:23, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I haven't found anything yet that you hadn't already found. A JSTOR search for Plumlee found only the Peter Boag article you've already cited, and the indexes of the MacColl and Lansing histories of Portland don't mention Plumlee. Boag's article, by the way, is really interesting. I will keep looking, though I'm running out of ideas. Finetooth (talk) 21:57, 27 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The second paragraph of the "Early Life" section says Plumlee became a caseworker in Clackamas County, then the text segues into facts about her work for the WPD in Portland, which is in Multnomah County. How and when did she get from one position to the other? Finetooth (talk) 17:49, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * (Of course...) I can't get the Lake Oswego Review obituary (ref #1) to load, which means I can't look into this concern and that might also be problematic for serving as a reliable source. Does the page load for you? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 06:51, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, never mind. This should work. --- Another Believer  ( Talk ) 06:57, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I've adjusted the wording. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 07:33, 28 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I have a question, too. I kept "Badge 357" in quotation marks, instead of italics, since the memoir was never published. Does that seem appropriate? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:31, 26 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I think the quotation marks are OK. More significantly, even if her memoir is not an RS, it might be useful to track it down to see what's in it. It might mention interesting things that would verifiable by other means. Lola Baldwin had national, not just local, connections. For example, she was invited to help set up WPDs in Tacoma and Seattle and she served on the National Committee on Prisons and Prison Labor. Plumlee might have done something that was notable statewide, regionally, or nationally; the memoir would likely mention anything like this. Finetooth (talk) 19:50, 26 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, I don't think Multnomah County Library carries Stories of Hester Ann Bolin Harvey and Her Family. So, I can either nominate this article for GA status and see what the reviewer says, or I can hold off if you think notability is still not clearly established. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:36, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Other possible facts, but probably not notable

 * I came across a 1928 Oregonian article called "Girl Reserves to Dine with Mothers Today: Christmas Luncheon Program to Be Opened by Litany Composed by Hazel McBride and Sybil Burgess". It describes a litany composed by the mother-daughter duo. Burgess is Plumlee's maiden name, but previous research says Sybil's mother was called Stella Burgess, not Hazel McBride. Therefore, I am not sure if this is about the same Sybil or not. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 19:12, 26 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Similarly, I came across a 1926 article which says Sybil Burgess danced at a social meeting. Again, not sure if this is not the same Sybil, but not sure either of these news mentions are worth including any way... --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 19:15, 26 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Finally, I should note that the Oregonian archives contain dozens of realty listings along with her name. She may have worked in realty? The Wikipedia article currently states that she once presented to the Women's Council of the Portland Board of Realtors. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 21:58, 26 December 2014 (UTC)