Talk:Sylheti Nagri

103 digitised texts online
Hi all. I'm currently working with the British Library, and trying to find material in their digital collections which would work well to support Wikipedia articles.

They funded a digitisation project in 2006 which covered 103 texts in Sylheti Nagari. I believe this is the same project covered in this existing external link, but it contains the page images rather than just the metadata.

There's a great deal of repetition (twenty copies of Hālatunnabi, for example) but there's still quite a range of material both in manuscript and print. Hopefully this is of some use! Andrew Gray (talk) 14:43, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Wrong term "Nagari"
Even in other Shanskrit Language it is Nagari, in term of Sylheti Language, all researchers and authors used the term "Nagri". So please correct it. Rajputro.nagaland (talk) 16:06, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Suspicious Activity / Misleading name
"Nagari" is a foreign word in the context of Sylheti Language. We are not fimiliar with the word. Nor other researcher.

English to Hindi or other language Something belongs to a City = Nagari

English to Bengali Something belongs to a City = Nogori, Shohure

English to Sylheti Something belongs to a City = Nagri

In modern history, Unicode, STAR, Syloti Grammar, Atlas of Endangered Alphabets, all mentioned above used "Syloti Nagri". SylhetiEditor (talk) 14:24, 13 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Do not make unilateral changes without WP:CONSENSUS. Check how Devanagari is also transliterated as Nagari, while its Hindi spelling is Nagri. English transliterations in Wikipedia uses an extra 'a' after consonants. Ram becomes Rama- Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:21, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

The problem is original page Syloti Nagri is redirecting to this page. Is it not possible to keep both pages. There is not much information about this script. So people will be confused to find resources, as all places books, apps, transliterated it as Syloti Nagri. SylhetiEditor (talk) 04:15, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

If "a" is used after consonants in Devnagari, "o" should be used in regards to Syloti Nagri SylhetiEditor (talk) 13:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

It is correctly written on other Wikipedia pages. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15924

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syloti_Nagri_(Unicode_block) SylhetiEditor (talk) 04:34, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

User Fylindfotberserk, translating all names to Hindi.
Hi Everyone, User Fylindfotberserk, translating all names to Hindi. Even Nagri Chattar is an official name of Nagri Square and this user is translating it to Hindi, he is from India and behaviour is suspicious. SylhetiEditor (talk) 19:24, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

English transliterations in Wikipedia uses an extra 'a' after consonants in terms of Hindi then for Sylheti Language 'o' should be used after consonent. Nagri as Nagori. SylhetiEditor (talk) 19:36, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , how are you and related? ST47 (talk) 19:43, 13 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Stop making POV edits. Maintain STATUSQUO. Some facts that you obviously do not know:- 1) Everyone in India is not a Hindi speaker and 2)Sylheti speakers are native to India too. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 07:44, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi ST47, We are concerned about the person who changed Nagri to Nagari and redirected Syloti Nagri page to this page. Language is very sensitive to our people. It is mentioned in the Bengali version of this page that, people abandoned Brahmic Script and endorsed this script because of Brahman Supremacy.

People don't like, - Calling Syloti as dialect of Bengali. - Shanskritising spellings. - Some people don't like we have a separate script so they didn't mention it in any books.

The question is whether it is necessary to change it? In Omniglot transliteration of both script is like "Devnagari" & "Syloti Nagri".

The name Syloti Nagri is used in Keyboards, Grammar book and everywhere else in the Internet. We would like to propose keeping the name consistent with our Script Name used elsewhere.

Transliteration of the name Nagari can be written back to Hindi as it is Na-Ga-Ri. Ga in Hindi and Go in Syloti.

Thanks. SylhetiEditor (talk) 07:51, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

It is correctly written on other Wikipedia pages as Syloti Nagri.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15924

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syloti_Nagri_(Unicode_block) SylhetiEditor (talk) 04:36, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Unicode: Devanagari & Syloti Nagri
Sylheti Research And Translation prepared the paper based on research. Correct transliteration is already made. It is not necessary to make it Nagari like Devnagari. SylhetiEditor (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Naming Syloti Nagri as Sylheti Nagari without any reference, research. Just because to match with Devnagari is not logical. Unicode and others given regognition based on the transliteration Syloti Nagri. SylhetiEditor (talk) 14:02, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

"I.1.2 The name of the language

There is of course no ‘correct’ way of spelling a word transcribed from a different language and writing system. Whilst Sylheti is now the commonest English spelling of the language name after the accepted British spelling Sylhet of the geographic region, the Roman transcription of the Standard Bengali spelling of the name is Sileti. Some Sylhetis spell this in Bengali as equivalent to Siloti, which they claim is more original and authentic. In the 19th century, the British tea-planters in the area referred to the language as Sylhettia.2 In Assam, the language is still referred to as Srihattiya, the name used in ancient literature. We have found that many Sylhetis, even those who do not understand Standard Bengali, call their language Bangla, Bangela or Bangala (i.e., Bengali), but others who are aware of Sylheti's distinctiveness do refer to their language as Sylheti. When writing English, these latter people use a range of spellings such as Sylhetee, Sylety, Siloty,etc.TheEnglish spelling of the name of the script preferred by national writers and researchers is Syloti Nagri. In this paper, we have called the language Sylheti and its writing system Syloti Nagri, as discussed further below. We have retained the spelling Siloti Nagri where we are showing the Roman transliteration of text in Bengali or Syloti Nagri scripts." SylhetiEditor (talk) 14:19, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

It is correctly written on other Wikipedia pages as Syloti Nagri. So no meed to translate it to Hindi Nagari. Thanks.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15924

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syloti_Nagri_(Unicode_block) SylhetiEditor (talk) 04:39, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Proposal to rename as "Syloti Nagri"
Hi All, Syloti Nagri page is redirecting to this page. For following reasons I want to propose to rename to Syloti Nagri keeping all content as it is.

1. Official Unicode name is Syloti Nagri. 2. STAR Sylheti Research and Translation, proposal for Unicode Documentation also mentioned Language as Sylheti, Writing System as Syloti Nagri. 3. Google is using the same name Syloti Nagri for Sylheti writing system. 4. "Sylheti" was transliterated in British era from Bengali word সিলেটি, not from Sylheti word Syloti "ꠍꠤꠟꠐꠤ". 5. Researchers of Sylheti Language, now transliterate "ꠍꠤꠟꠐꠤ ꠘꠣꠉꠞꠤ" as Syloti Nagri. 6. All of our Syloti Nagri apps developed after this name. 7. Finally Sylheti People call it ꠍꠤꠟꠐꠤ ꠘꠣꠉꠞꠤ Syloti Nagri. So here in writing system there is no point to call it half English "Sylheti" and half in Sylheti as "ꠘꠣꠉꠞꠤ/Nagri".

In regards to the page name of ꠍꠤꠟꠐꠤ ꠘꠣꠉꠞꠤ, proposing it to Syloti Nagri. Keeping other names and explanation in description as it is. SylhetiEditor (talk) 12:51, 15 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Have you checked WP:COMMONNAME policy? While Sylhoti Nagri has a large number of hits in Google, the English transliteration is "Sylheti", so it needs to be verified in reliable English sources. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:27, 15 January 2020 (UTC)


 * "Syloti" is a bit of a weird spelling. In Sylheti transliteration ꠍꠤꠟꠐꠤ should be Siloti with an I not a Y. UserNumber (talk) 17:16, 15 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Hmm... require more specialists in Eastern Scripts., would you weigh in? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:59, 15 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I say keep it how it is. Other spellings are mentioned in the first sentence. The template infobox for any script has a section called Unicode alias for the equivalent. There is no need to change it as long as that is present. Syloti/Siloti Nagri is an endonym anyway.UserNumber (talk) 19:04, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Even it is new for Wikipedia. We are working to save the script for very long time. Many people are learning recently about it and misspelling of the script name will confuse wikipedia users. Unicode choose the correct spelling based on research done by Sylheti and Foreign linguistics.

Unicode: Use Syloti Nagri for w/s, Sylheti for Language. Google: Syloti Nagri Use Syloti Nagri for w/s, Sylheti for Language. Wikipedia: Is editable by any users, hence need to align with more mature platforms. Otherwise creditability of Wikipedia will be reduce. SylhetiEditor (talk) 05:42, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Don't confuse by Siloti or Syloti. Both citation is from STAR. It was discussed by Sylheti Translation and Researched and finally proposed as Syloti in Unicode proposal. Check documents from 2002 and 2005. Since than Syloti is being used in Unicode and Keyboards. After 15 years in 2020 who are confuse about spelling, they aren't aware about the subject or just learning about the script recently. Which is my point, don't confuse the new learners from Wikipedia platform. SylhetiEditor (talk) 05:58, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

By the way, I don't represent them, just quoting. SylhetiEditor (talk) 06:04, 16 January 2020 (UTC)


 * As I said, don't be in a hurry. Request RfC here. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 07:28, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , can you help on this? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 07:35, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Unicode said it was Syloti Nagri in 2005. However, I have found evidence from 1929 for the term Sylheti instead of Syloti here: https://eap.bl.uk/archive-file/EAP071-30-20#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=1&xywh=-1573%2C0%2C4661%2C2775 . Not only that, I have found evidence from the STAR website of them translating from Sylheti to English changing it from Siloti to Sylheti http://www.sylheti.org.uk/primer-and-songs UserNumber (talk) 12:49, 16 January 2020 (UTC)


 * By and large the WP:COMMONNAME (in English ofcourse) is Sylheti. All articles related is also named "Sylheti XYZ". We should stick to it IMO. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * The Sylheti spelling is often seen as a remnant of colonial times, and nowadays there's a tendency towards using a more accurate written representation for the name of the language and the script. I don't know how far it's gone, but looking at results in a web search, there doesn't appear to be a single spelling that's unambiguously more common than the others: I'm seeing 190 results for "sylheti nag(a)ri", 96 for "syloti nag(a)ri" and 105 for "siloti nag(a)ri". – Uanfala (talk) 16:52, 16 January 2020 (UTC)


 * That settles it then, the article name stays as Sylheti Nagri, :) UserNumber (talk) 17:15, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Given the absence of a common name, it's usually best to go for the name whose use is growing, or the one that's seen as more acceptable by the community of users of the script. "Sylheti" does not appear to be such a name. – Uanfala (talk) 17:21, 16 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I am a member of the Sylheti community. This issue has been brought forward from 1 user from my understanding. That is not a community of users. UserNumber (talk) 18:20, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , can you help on this? - UserNumber (talk) 20:43, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I'm not really that familiar with the topic, but since there isn't an obvious consensus for "Syloti Nagri" yet, I'd argue to maintain the status quo for now. It doesn't seem appropriate to move the page just based on the assumption that the majority opinion will support it eventually. As per WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, "Sylheti Nagri" being a colonialist spelling isn't really a factor. Alivardi (talk) 21:50, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Stop POV pushing like this, when we are discussing it here. That's disruptive. And do not embed external links in the article. Just to let you know, other Wikipedia articles can't be used to cite content in this article as per WP:UGC. The content in this article should be supported by stand-alone sources. Another, do not change Infobox name parameter, it should match with the article name. Unless we reach a WP:CONSENSUS here, these kinds of edits by you will be reverted to maintain WP:STATUSQUO, so don't do it. Pinging for inputs. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 07:51, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Do not edit war like this. You are a new user, you should understand that this is an Team-based Encyclopedia and not a Forum. You cannot make changes unilaterally when others are objecting to it. This kind of behavior will get you blocked. If we reach a consensus to rename the page, that will be done in time. So no need to fret about it and absolutely no need to add embedded links and references from other Wikis which are considered unreliable as per WP:UGC. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:20, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Syloti Nagri & other Sylheti names.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15924 (Check inside Script Code section it is mentioned)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syloti_Nagri_(Unicode_block)

Standard Language name: Sylheti Standard Sylheti Script: Syloti Nagri

Sylheti Language in SN: ꠍꠤꠟꠐꠤ IPA: Silôṭi

Sylheti script name in SN: ꠍꠤꠟꠐꠤ ꠘꠣꠉꠞꠤ IPA: Silôṭi Nagri

Sylheti Language in Bengali: সিলেটি IPA: Sileṭi

Sylheti script name in Standard Bengali: সিলেট নগরী বা সিলেট নগরীয় লিপি অথবা "qoutation mark" এর ভিতরে "নাগরি/ꠘꠣꠉꠞꠤ" লিখতে হবে

Incorrect Bengali অশুদ্ধ বাংলায়: সিলেটি নাগরী

"হেজে কোরিয়া বুজানির পরেও বুঝলে বুঝপাতা না বুঝলে তেজপাতা" SylhetiEditor (talk) 11:49, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Oh and last one Incorrect Bengali: সিলেটি নাগরী (Sylheti Nagri) also incorrect in Sylheti Language. Word by word, Sylheti word is Syloti/ꠍꠤꠟꠐꠤ IPA: Silôṭi

And SN (ꠞꠤ রি) is misunderstood by few Bengali writters as "Dirgo e" রী 😔

Wrong spelling of wiki page like this one teaching new learners wrong thing. While majori of Sylheti people doesn't know this script exist nor use it. SylhetiEditor (talk) 12:07, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Normally I don't correct new learners but I give efforts to correct the sources of learning. Everyday as many users will visit this page, more people will learn it wrong way. I agree Wikipedia is not reliable source, Unicode and ISO codes are there you can search/verify independently.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15924

Sylo	316	Syloti Nagri	Syloti Nagri	L-to-R	4.1	44	 SylhetiEditor (talk) 12:55, 17 January 2020 (UTC)


 * But I have a habit of correcting new learners in Wikipedia. I've pasted a list of 60 links on how Wikipedia works in your talk page. Go through them one by one and calm down. An article written originally with a certain name will be kept as such. We are at liberty of changing that after the new name passes WP:COMMONNAME and we reach a WP:CONSENSUS here. Creating new sections will not help it. And also different Wikipedia articles on same things can have different names as per WP:COMMONNAME. As an example, Allahabad haven't been changed to the new official name Prayagraj, but Prayag Kumbh Mela is named as such without Allabad, despite it happening in Allahabad. See this on how we reach consensus. If you want you can start an RfC here. And DO NOT attack Indians every time for these . It is more likely that the Sylheti articles were created by a Bangladeshi than an Indian. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:32, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Many of our Sylheti still learning, 99% of Sylheti are not aware of this script exist. It is not about consensus. If you guys do not align with official unicode or iso standard name, you will teach people wrong name. And what is the point of teaching something wrongly. Yes only handful or people will find the correct one and rest will stay confused. People are spelling many many different ways wrongly. Then they need to find the iso standard script name(only for current script). Instead of that you can just teach them the right one and stop the circles of confusion between language name and script name. There is a page Syloti Nagri but it is redirecting to this page. SylhetiEditor (talk) 07:30, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

I give you an example with Dev nagari, in this way it suppose to be Sylhet Nagari. But look how misspelling and making it Sylheti Nagari without understanding. Thats why ISO Standard script naming stop them to create unnecessary names. Devanagari is also ISO Standard script name. SylhetiEditor (talk) 07:46, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Devanagari = Sylhetnagari SylhetiEditor (talk) 07:48, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Previous one was English. Devanagari = Sylotnagari (Sylheti language pronounciation wise siloti) SylhetiEditor (talk) 07:50, 18 January 2020 (UTC)


 * typo (Sylheti language pronounciation wise city silot) SylhetiEditor (talk) 07:52, 18 January 2020 (UTC)


 * It is about Consensus. It is a Law in Wikipedia. You edit Wikipedia, you go by rules. Unicode is an obscure thing as far as general people are concerned, which has been covered in text in the article. The article name instead follows WP:COMMONNAME. Mainstream people know about news alright. Even the recent name changes of cities, districts in India, that got hyped in media, like Bangalore -> Bengaluru, Allahabad -> Prayagraj, Faizabad -> Ayodhya, were not accepted. See talkpage archives of Bangalore article, it went through multiple RfCs, it is still Bangalore even now. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:22, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Not people, you are objecting Fylindfotberserk, those people can read Syloti Nagri or IPA they can see it is written as "Siloti". Syloti Nagri is standard name by the ISO, International Standardisation Organisions and Unicode. This name is used and written in Sylheti by most users (may be couple of hundreds so far). All Syloti Nagri keyboard is named like this, including Google Gboard. First ever Sylheti Grammar book written also named Syloti Grammar. Knowing this info, it is obvious a common name to the users of the script. Who are learning or not well aware about the script, call it in many name unless they learn the script and see what's written there. You can see the IPA character If you can't see the fonts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SylhetiUser (talk • contribs) 06:16, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Aftermath
Barnstars awarded to User:Fylindfotberserk (see this revision) and User:Uanfala (see this revision) for their work.
 * That was both funny and sad. User:SylhetiEditor was likely a good-faith editor, but was in too much hurry and displayed CIR issues. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 07:22, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Good on ya, but check because of this page all Unicode, ISO_15924, Syloti Nagri (Unicode block) pages writing correctly Syloti Nagri but redirecting to Sylheti Nagri. How stubborn this page editors? I am working so people learn International Standard Name by (ISO), also a standard English name. Itrans issues (talk) 09:23, 1 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Backlinking to this page. Original page Syloti Nagri is redirecting as duplicate. Itrans issues (talk) 09:26, 1 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Achieve WP:CONSENSUS. If you want. start a page move RfC. That'll solve your problem. Sockpuppetry will get you nowhere. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:16, 1 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi @User:ST47, the sock-puppet has also been causing some trouble in the Bengali Wikipedia pages, could you lock those as well please e.g. সিলেটি নাগরী UserNumber (talk) 15:31, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Conflict between the article and the Title
The article still calls it "Sylethi Nagari" several times. I don't have the confidence to change the article but it seems strange that the article disagrees with the title about how it's called. --LonleyGhost (talk) 12:51, 21 May 2020 (UTC)


 * It was Sylheti Nagri, its just that disruptive editors keep changing it. Will change them all to match the title now.UserNumber (talk) 15:08, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Rename article to Sylhet Nagri
all pre-2000 books call it "Sylhet Nagri" (this was the name used, not sylheti or syloti) not just "Dobhashi manuscripts". UserNumber (talk) 18:10, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Sylheti Nagari
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Sylheti Nagari's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "fischer2004": From Devanagari:  From Nagar Barap:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:36, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Pronounciation of ꠕ tho/t̪ɔ́
The IPA and note to that character don't seem to match up. The IPA column says /t̪/ but the note suggests /θ/. --LonleyGhost (talk) 12:46, 21 May 2020 (UTC)


 * No. As a native. I clarify that the pronunciation is similar to /t̪/ not /θ/. Sylheti has different pronunciation compared to other indo aryan languages. Smibzahee (talk) 12:49, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Protect

 * Full-protection-shackle-no-text.svg Not done: requests for increases to the page protection level should be made at Requests for page protection. Naypta ☺ &#124; ✉ talk page &#124; 14:05, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 June 2020
It is not the 'Sylheti dialect', but the Sylheti language, see Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylheti_language Reference to the 'Bengali language' as being hierarchically superior to the 'Sylheti dialect' is bigoted. The script named after the language is was designed to write does not need to reference the Bangla/Bengali language in attempts to propogate cultural and political hegemony. Tuahtme (talk) 14:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 15:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 June 2020
I want to add background color to the letters in the chart. Dubomanab (talk) 05:17, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jack Frost (talk) 08:50, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Derived from
As per the Unicode Source (page 4), Sylheti script is not derived from Bengali and Devnagari scripts. But the Banglapedia source contradicts that. Are we giving due weight to the unicode source? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for putting that to my attention. Indeed it does not derive from Bengali or Devanagari nor Arabic, there is no evidence for this. It is however clearly a northern Indian script closely related to other Nagari scripts, of which the Unicode source mentioned Kaithi script is it's direct ancestor. Banglapedia is also not an academic source and whatever is written on there does not even have in-line citations. Wikipedia should not rely on other encyclopedias. Glennznl (talk) 12:12, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your the input. I'd like to ping as well. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:25, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * On this turn, I have to pass :) The only thing I can say that the topic seems controversial ("The exact origin of the Syloti Nagri script is unknown, and our opinions are therefore based on circumstantial evidence."—LLoyd-Willians et al., unicode.org). The Banglapedia article has sources at the end, but without attribution of the lead statement ("Sylheti Nagri, which dates back to the first decade of the fourteenth century, was derived from Bangla, arabic, Kaithi, and Devanagari") to one of these sources, I would prefer not to rest on this source alone (pretty muich like when using Ethnologue: it's good for a start, but then quickly proceed to better sources if available). Based on this uncertainty, I suggest not to put too much into the infobox, except for saying that it's a Brahmic script. –Austronesier (talk) 13:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC)