Talk:Sylosis

Thrash Hits verdict
This need cleaning up badly —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.10.54 (talk) 05:31, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Metalcore genre
Metalcore should not be listed as one of Sylosis' genres. No way. They don't downtune, they don't play breakdowns and how in any way apart from being Thrash is their music hardcore influenced. Theyv'e even said themselves, 'Musically, we had all the same influences we do now but included some more European, At The Gates-y kind of riffing which then got assosiated with metalcore which wasn’t how we wanted to come across.' (http://www.metalsucks.net/2009/02/02/sylosis-interview/). Just because they use At The Gates melodic riffing does not make them metalcore, it makes them melodic death metal. How does this band sound like someone like Killswitch Engage or All That Remains. I think people call them metalcore because they don't know what to call them. I think the metalcore genre should be removed, but I won't remove it until people come to an agreement on it. If you don't want to remove it from their genreal genre list, at least remove it from the 'Conclusion Of An Age' page, as even if their earlier stuff could be classed as metalcore, as Josh [Middleton] said, they stopped sounding like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JacobGudge (talk • contribs) 22:16, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Influences
If you're going to list their influences, please at least provide valid citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.30.237 (talk) 15:43, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Genre
To whoever keeps changing the genre section: The genre of this band has been discussed and rediscussed, debated and redebated. The band themselves have described their influences in detail, and these have all been listed here in summary form. Please, stop changing genre definitions and deleting valid citations that are the result or meticulous online reseach. If you wish open up yet another debate, please feel free to do so. But do not change the genre without a wide consensus and without providing reasons or citations. Doing so is regarded as vandalism and will inevitably be reverted, wasting your time and ours. Ngk44 (talk) 12:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The band's infuences and opinion on their own genre is of course irrelevant to a Wikipedia article, outside of a specific "influences" section. Genre boxes and the like are informed by profssional journalists, cited in reliable sources. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:25, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * These references show that Sylosis is death, thrash and progressive metal. So, I am going to delete metalcore and screamo from the genres list.
 * http://deathmetalbaboon.com/album-review-sylosis-edge-of-the-earth
 * http://www.rocknreelreviews.com/review/sylosis-monolith/
 * http://dermetalkrieger.com/2012/09/20/the-sylosis-monolith-review/
 * http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/compact_discs/sylosis/edge_of_the_earth/index.html
 * http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Sylosis/79468
 * http://www.metalkingdom.net/band/band_discography.php?idx=3134
 * http://www.infernalmasquerade.com/?q=reviews/002233-sylosis-%E2%80%93-monolith-2012
 * http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/30013/Sylosis-The-Supreme-Oppressor/ Cristian MH (talk) 20:15, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Every single one of those fails WP:RS. Reminder: webzines fail WP:RS unless their content has been published elsewhere professionally by a third-party (hence MusicMight articles written by Garry Sharpe-Young, Allmusic etc all pass, but none of the above; Sputnikmusic reviews writeen by *staff* pass RS, but nothing else). Blackmetalbaz (talk) 11:35, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Allmusic is wrong, but I do not want to argue. That is the only reference that names metalcore and screamo, you will not find any other reference. You should help us solve the problem, instead of undoing my edits. In my opinion, if you don't let me delete those two wrong genres, you're damaging Wikipedia. Cristian MH (talk) 17:24, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Allmusic is wrong in your opinion. Your opinion (or mine for that matter) is irrelevant. You are yet to provide any counter sources that pass WP:RS. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:48, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * So if Sputnikmusic reviews pass RS, this source shows that correct genres are death, thrash and progressive metal. Right? Cristian MH (talk) 23:47, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No! Absolutely not. The biographies are user-edited! The only Sputnik sources you can use are reviews that are clearly labelled as being written by "Staff". And even if you managed to find a Sputnik source stating what you could claim, you could add them to the article, but still not remove the ones that are sourced from elsewhere! Blackmetalbaz (talk) 11:44, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

A note on sourcing
Only Sputnikmusic articles demonstrably written by staff may be used as sources; this rules out the biographies. Metal Archives can never be used as a source for anything. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:23, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Whereas allmusic biographies and reviews are generally frowned on due to the fact that they're usually generalised, vague and lack expertise in the genre? 86.172.98.60 (talk) 20:33, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Er, no. Have you actually read WP:RS? Wikipedia is interested solely in verifiability by reliable sources, not "truth" as any particular editor may see it. Allmusic bios and reviews are written by professional journalists, and their material has been published by independent third-party sources, and hence obviously pass WP:RS. The ones I mentioned equally clearly do not. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 21:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

The edit warring of recent days
A lot of disrespect has occurred over the last few days, pertaining to this page. The series of events that has happened here is completely gratuitous. The subject matter of this pointless bickering is genre warring and the placement of copied and pasted text within the article. Wikipedia has rules against both practices, as has been pointed out a signifcant amount of times during the course of this. Basically, there should be no genre warring and no cpoying and pasting on this website. I can't believe how many times my edits have been reverted here while I'm simply trying to maintain the page. Anyways, I want to make clear that I couldn't care less about whether or not Sylosis is "metalcore"; it's just that that genre assertion is sourced with Allmusic and should stay on the page. Also, there are so many more creative ways of posting about the upcoming album Monolith than just copying and pasting information from elsewhere on the internet; that constitutes as plagiarism. The only reason why I have not reverted the last edit is because of wariness of the 3-revert rule, and if I continue to revert and therefore prolong the edit war, I do risk getting myself in trouble. I have requested this page to be protected for this disgraceful, inexcusable behavior which wastes my time and the time of other honest editors. I want what is best for Wikipedia, and this genre warring and copypasting is not remotely close to achieving this. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 22:25, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You are entirely in the right; the genre has been reliably sourced, so that genre designation should remain in the infobox. There's never been any justification for its removal beyond editor WP:POV. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Get a grip kids. If some dumb fuck didn't put "screamo" in the genre section it wouldn't be a problem. Source or not, that source is incorrect so fucking get rid of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.46.96 (talk) 19:17, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, the genre warring was a problem before somebody put down "screamo" in the genre area. As well, genre assertion can be subjective sometimes, and may not be an attempt to be "completely correct" about something. The reason I removed three of the genres from the infobox, though, including screamo, was because they were originally posted by a disruptive user who genre warred (among other activity) and was trying to prove a point.


 * With that said, there are better ways to give feedback than to initially resort to the use of vulgar language (see the civility guidelines). As well, I want to move on from this petty, ridiculous genre warring and instead see the page be improved. Continually bickering about genres is an atavistic and unproductive practice. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 20:07, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Then get rid of melodic hardcore, post-hardcore and screamo from the genre section. I don't care what that source says, it's damn right incorrect and any idiot knows this band do not musically represent either of those three styles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.46.96 (talk) 12:35, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Full protection for 3 days
I've fully protected the article from editing for 3 days, to allow you to work out the changes without warring. This is NOT an endorsement of the current version. Work it out and put in the changes based on consensus once protection expires, so no one will have to get blocked for edit warring. Dennis Brown - 2&cent;    &copy;  17:40, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Sockpuppet investigations/SylosisWatts
I have launched a sockpuppet investigation against banned user SylosisWatts. Considering the heavy involvement of the Sylosis band page, your input is welcome. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 08:26, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Ratings and recent edits: 2 topics
I want to bring attention to the fact that this article is rated as a stub in both the WikiProjects on this talk page. Since then, I believe the article has grown significantly greater than that of a stub. Therefore, it should probably be reassessed.

The second topic concerns recent edits. Due to the conflict of interest that has arisen between me and other editors, I am at least temporarily stepping down from editing here, to hopefully dissipate the situation; I apologize if I did any missteps addressing the genre issue. It's not something I want to prolong or escalate further, and I wish for the best result possible to come of this. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 08:06, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit-request on 19 July 2012
'Screamo' should be in the genre box but isn't, I'm not sure why. But if you look on the source linked to metalcore tag you will see there is a number of references to it, even more so than metalcore. It's actually the genre it refers to the most and for a good reason too.

Thanks

No, it shouldn't. The source is incorrect and doesn't refer to them as screamo being a musical genre. Get rid of it. Now.
 * This seems to need consensus, as well as IP editors signing their posts.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:01, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I haven't got the first clue how to hell this site works. I was coming to look for a release-date for monolith and I noticed someone fucked with the genre section putting something extremely incorrect. I'm just doing what I can to stop people getting false information.
 * False information - in your opinion. It appears to be in the source, so it remains. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 10:24, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

False information from an unreliable and incorrect source. Idiot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.46.96 (talk) 14:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

You should stop debating it 78.x as ultimately it's stated on a reliable website, anyway it needs placing next to metalcore as it's currently not linked to the appropriate source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.214.212 (talk) 19:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It's not though. Congratulations on making Wikipedia even more incorrect than it already was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.99.252.87 (talk) 17:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 August 2012
'Screamo' genre needs to be in the correct place, i. e. next to metalcore as that's the sourced reference. It's currently last and without the appropriate source (same source as metalcore is using) Cheers

81.157.214.212 (talk) 19:55, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes check.svg Done Rivertorch (talk) 20:33, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Hows about remove it? It's wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.239.219 (talk) 22:11, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

This has been debated and re-debated, Wikipedia is not concerned about the 'truth' as one editor sees it, solely relies on a verified source. Spamming the talk section won't change this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.101.98 (talk) 19:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

So you admit to providing false information. Nice one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.245.236 (talk) 23:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

YOU REALLY ARE COMPLETE BASTARDS. You only included that genre to spite me. How immature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.60.149 (talk) 18:18, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

SCREAMO?!?!?!
You have got to be kidding me. That information is just purely incorrect. If Sylosis are screamo, so are Slayer, Pantera, Emperor, Morbid Angel, and every other extreme metal band. "Screamo" is a subgenre of post-hardcore, and this in no way represents this band's music. Escape the Fate, The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, Alexisonfire - these are screamo bands. Listen, and tell me if their sound resembles that of Sylosis in any but the most superficial way. Sylosis are influenced by death metal, a subgenre which developed entirely separate from emo, in just about every way. Saying a band is something they aren't because to your ears the vocals are "sort of similar" is ignorant and stupid. Usage of the term "screamo" to simply refer to any music containing screamed/growled vocals is an incorrect and inaccurate usage of the term, and generally only done by people who know nothing about the genre they're discussing. Screaming and growling in heavy music existed long before - years before - post-hardcore, emo and, indeed, screamo were even coined as musical terms. If a source features that kind of throwaway usage of a technical term it is a) wrong, b) unreliable, and c) invalid. Saying that Wikipedia is "not interested in the truth" has to be the dumbest statement ever made. Yes, information is supposed to be based on sources, but said information is supposed to be both accurate and true, or at least as far as is possible, and said sources are supposed to be reliable and accurate themselves. Adding an incorrect genre label to a band that you know for a fact is untrue/inaccurate just because some obscure article uses an incorrect throwaway term is ignorant, unprofessional, and irresponsible, and amounts to vandalism. It's not a matter of personal or collective "opinion" but a matter of principle, as this article's genre section is currently inaccurate and misleading in reference to the band's sound, which is a complete and offensive violation of what Wikipedia supposedly stands for, i. e. FACTS. If the supposedly professional moderators responsible for semi-protecting this article are so unconcerned with providing factual information, then I've lost every ounce of respect I ever had for this website and the people who pretend to run it.

End of rant. Ngk44 (talk)
 * Information on Wikipedia is based on WP:verifiability, NOT "truth", supported by reliable sources. This has been discussed over and over again; I have never heard the band, so have no vested interest in the genre. However, you should desist from editing the article again in this way, and stick to seeking consensus on the talk page (see lengthy discussion above, that you have ignored). Individual editors' opinions as to what is "true" has no relevance here, and replacing sourced material with a selection of genres of your own choosing with not a single source in sight, after the page has been semi-protected for precisely this reason, could be seen as borderline vandalism. I will assume assume good faith and assume you were unaware of the above discussion, and our core policies of WP:V and WP:RS, and politely suggest that you read them now. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * And I politely suggest you remove your head from your ass. This "discussion" is over. Ngk44 (talk)

Blackmetalbaz is entirely correct, you really need to read WP:RS. And please stop slating verifiable sources, they're professional journalists/critics that often know music inside out. I personally can hear a wide range of screamo/post-hardcore/emo elements in Sylosis's work, as can the PROFESSIONAL reviewer it seems. Not that that carries any relevance however. But my advice is to broaden up your musical horizons and listen to some fantastic bands Sylosis draw influence from rather than obnoxiously ranting, bands such as High on Fire, Asking Alexandria, Enslaved, and Bring me zhe Horizon. You'll find it's far more productive than typing out a pointless essay of rage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.214.143 (talk) 18:04, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Screamo needs to go. Seriously you're just taking the piss by putting it here from some really unreliable source which you'll do anything to call "reliable". They're not screamo, the source isn't reliable. Change it now.

Sylosis has stated various times that they have not been influenced by hardcore/metalcore in any kind of way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.156.5.148 (talk) 11:07, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Revert due to genre warrior
Needs to be reverted back. Another genre warrior trying to enforce his opinion on what he/she thinks it should be rather than using a good range of verifiable sources. Almost all the links he provided don't even pass WP:IRS

81.157.214.143 (talk) 00:08, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You weren't entirely clear but I think I've taken care of it. It's obviously an ongoing problem on this page - which I realized when I saw that I protected this long long ago. Drmies (talk) 14:17, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

It's happened again zzzzz


 * ✅ Yeah, I've reverted what change I saw. If I missed something please reopen this request. Also, remember to sign posts with ~ . Thanks! gwickwire &#124; Leave a message 20:45, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

16/12/12 - Ngk44, a genre warrior, has completely messed the genres up again. Needs reversing.

Edit: He's also the user that's posted a massive wall of rage above attempting to debate the reliable source poorly. Completely oblivious to WP:IRS. Just revert it back for now but if his attacks continue I'll be reporting due to consistent abusive behavior, trying to wreck articles.


 * Yes check.svg Done and I've warned . Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 04:26, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Additional genre to improve the page
Hi,

there's currently no mention of post/melodic-hardcore in the genre subsection, I feel this article would benefit from it to note the additional variation/diversity of Sylosis's work. The current list is indeed correct and appropriate however hardcore is quite different from the others because Sylosis merge many genres, for this reason I believe it'd be a welcome addition for readers.

Post-hardcore, melodic hardcore, or just hardcore can be added. I'd say post-hardcore would be the most constructive addition though imo.

Here's the source that obviously passes WP:RS http://www.allmusic.com/album/conclusion-of-an-age-mw0000806956

Best wishes!

109.145.0.86 (talk) 15:24, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * ❌ While that source is reliable, it is already used to cite two of the other genres. Given the amount of edit warring going on over the genres, I am disinclined add another when the source has clearly already been read and discussed. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 04:31, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

If you actually take into mind the of the amount of views this page gets on a daily basis the few people edit warring are very, very slim and minor. I don't agree with not attempting to improve articles because of a few petty genre warriors are crying. I agree it'd be beneficial to the 99% of readers who aren't trying to dispute reputable sources, which is what matters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.118.169 (talk) 21:10, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Allmusic review is NOT a reliable source for genres, here's why
Going to break down Jamie Henderson's review of Conclusion of an Age and point to the reasons to why it can't be utilized to define the genres of Sylosis's music as 'screamo' or 'metalcore', or any other hardcore-related genres as some have suggested. First of all, Henderson cites, as what he calls "screamo elements", "swirling guitars". The problem is, how do you define 'swirling' elements in guitar playing? Since "swirling" (Present participle of swirl = "To twist or whirl, like an eddy") is a visual phenomenon, it becomes very difficult to use it in a context related to sound and musical theory. Also, what I'd like to know is how and why the element of 'swirling guitars' is a characterizing trait of screamo, as Henderson cites it? What prevents it from being a signature element of metal genres such as thrash/groove metal and melodic death metal, as well as softer, non-metal genres such as hard rock and blues rock? What I allude to is that "swirling guitars" is a very broad and subjective term that can be used to define a huge assortment of musical genres, and is NOT limited to screamo and similar genres.

Secondly, he cites "the screaming vocals/clean vocals contrast that screamo is known for". However, the mix of screamed (harsh) and clean vocals is by fact NOT limited to hardcore-related genres only, but are also used by vocalists in for example thrash metal and melodic death metal (citing Testament's Chuck Billy, Exodus's Rob Dukes, and Kreator's Mille Petrozza as examples of this).

Thirdly, he writes that "Many of the screamo elements are present", yet he only names two of these: The 'swirling guitars' and the 'screaming vocals/clean vocals contrast". Two objects are often not considered "many", which further questions the legitimacy of the definition of genres in the review since Henderson can't seem to present more arguments to why Sylosis's music should be defined as 'screamo' or 'metalcore'.

In conclusion, Sylosis do have undeniable presence of the contrast between screamed and clean vocals in their music, but since once again this element isn't limited to screamo or metalcore, their music cannot be defined as any of these two genres. As quoted by lead guitarist and vocalist Josh Middleton and readable on Sylosis's Wiki page: "The foundation of our sound is old school Bay Area thrash. We don't downtune and we don't play breakdowns." The distinct traits of Sylosis's music - the fast, palm-muted riffs, melodic lead-guitar-parts, and mixture of screamed, growled, and clean vocals, and intricate arrangements - are clearly more characterizing of thrash metal, melodic death metal, and progressive metal, respectively, and should be defined as such in the genre section.

Reason before you add sources, folks.

A powerful Weakness (talk) 11:07, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

This is just your opinion. Read WP:RS

Who are you to evaluate a professional writers review, anyway? Wikipedia is not interested in whether the review is right or wrong, merely bases its information off sources that pass WP:RS. Allmusic is considered a reliable source so metalcore remains. That's the bottom line of it. Also, on a completely unrelated note I had a backstage pass to a show in LA with LoG a few weeks ago.. I saw Josh and Vinnie who happened to be listening to screamo (Design the Skyline) when I walked in. It was on Josh's iPod I think. After that we headbanged to Arise till I had a bangover then Black Veil Brides came on via shuffle. C'est La Vie mate x — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.240.206 (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Credibility of an opinion shouldn't be based on whether it comes from a professional source or not - that is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is if it brings up valid reasons for its argument, which is exactly what I do in my evaluation of Sylosis's genre and this writer's review, and what he fails to do. And yes, I do have the right to do so, no matter what opinion you may have.

Besides, your side-note is indeed completely unrelated since what a musician listens to doesn't necessarily need to be an influence on his/her own music, so I don't know why you brought that up. A Powerful Weakness (talk) 10:09, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

This all proves the "Screamo" and "metalcore" genre shouldn't be present. I can't believe you'd be so stubborn as to keep it there just because you found it yourself. Get rid of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.119.196 (talk) 15:34, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Prog addition & possible genre section
Someone find a verifiable source and throw progressive metal in. Thrash/Death/Prog are there 'main' 3 sounds, looks incomplete as it stands with just thrash/death. Also, due to long term genre debate a 'Refer to genre section below' is probably worth adding to include what they're widely labeled as and why, Josh's statements regarding genre etc. Look at LoG's page for an example of this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.119.149 (talk) 10:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Unused sources
I just withdrew my opposition to an edit that had been previously flagged as removing sources, because on closer investigation, I found that these sources did not support the claims they had been linked with. As the sources may be useful in other ways, I reproduce them here:

Regards, Samsara (FA • FP) 01:59, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Current Members
I though it worth mentioning that Sylosis have directly recently announced the departure of Rob Callard from the band and that they have announced Ali Richardson as their new drummer. Ali is also drummer for the band Bleed from Within.

I've attached the link direct form Sylosis' own website.

http://sylosis.com/sylosis-announce-new-drummer-ali-richardson/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrDouble-Barrelled (talk • contribs) 21:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 September 2014 Wrong quote
Citation/Quote number 4 is wrong. Someone, who obviously doesn't like the band, changed the quote "The foundation of our sound is old school Bay Area thrash. We don't downtune and we don't play breakdowns. We do like to incorporate lots of different metal styles and textures into our music. We like make all of our songs really epic. We like progressive stuff, brutal stuff and melodic stuff." to the one you can read now in the article. Please change it.

AwakenMirror (talk) 12:24, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

✅ This is old vandalism, back on 9 July - the user has since been blocked, but may have reappeared under another name. However, until I reverted that, there had been no edits since 5 September, so it is not someone "starting to change facts about Sylosis" as you state below, it is someone who did it about 65 edits ago, which was not properly cleaned up at the time. - Arjayay (talk) 17:39, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for changing it. I just recently joined the wikipedia community so I am sorry for not checking the history of the article. --AwakenMirror (talk) 15:22, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Someone is starting to change facts about Sylosis
Hey guys,

I don't know who it is, as I just joined Wikipedia because of the errors I found regarding Sylosis, but someone is changing a lot of facts about the band, because he obviously hates them. The quote I mentioned earlier is one example, but the whole article about Conclusion of an Age, Sylosis's debut-album is totally messed up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AwakenMirror (talk • contribs) 12:35, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit: I actually changed the article for "Conclusion of an Age" back to the way it was in 2012. It should be correct now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AwakenMirror (talk • contribs) 12:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

"The Supreme Oppressor (Sylosis album" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Supreme_Oppressor_(Sylosis_album&redirect=no The Supreme Oppressor (Sylosis album] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 22:35, 13 February 2024 (UTC)