Talk:Symbionese Liberation Army/Archive 1

Use the same name
(On 16 May 1974...Mel's Sporting Goods Store...Teko brandished a revolver. The guard knocked the gun from his hand, and had succeeded in placing a handcuff on William's left wrist)

It would seem to make more sense to use one name or the other for the same person throughout the account of the events at the store. 01:32, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Irony
Where is the "irony" to which this passage from the article refers:

"The SLA committed their first revolutionary action in 6 November 1973 when they murdered Oakland, California schools superintendent Dr. Marcus Foster. They characterized Dr. Foster's plan to introduce identification cards into Oakland schools as "fascist." Ironically, Dr. Foster had opposed the use of identification cards in the Oakland schools, and his plan was a watered down version of similar plans that had been proposed by others. On 10 January 1974, Joe Remiro and Russ Little were arrested and charged with the murder of Dr. Foster."

If the SLA's intention, in killing Dr. Foster, was to send a threat to any who would propose plans for any type of identification system (no matter how watered down that proposal might be, and regardless of the proposers expressed oposition to the plan), then there is no irony. So, this passage is not NPOV. Any idea how to fix it?


 * NO NO NO, you're being too logical. They were irresponsible idiots. Anyway, I fixed it. 64.165.202.47 07:04, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Why not until 2002
Why were the Harrises, etc. not tried and convicted for the murder of Myrna Opsahl until 2002?


 * Not sure, something about the procecutors were insecure, alraid of using Hearst as a witness. Could use some research... 64.165.202.47 07:04, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Second. I also found 'immediately arrested' confusing.
 * In the documentary it was only after 911 did the Harrises admit to being part of the murder. -- Esemono 01:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Mention photo please
Also, can we get a mention of the famous photo (taken by a bank security camera) of Patty Hearst in the bank with a machine gun? Was this the Crocker Bank robbery?


 * Do you mean this one: [Hearst surveillance video still]. I don't know how to upload images yet, nor do I know if this is the Crocker Bank. Anyone?  -- Alcarillo 16:45 27 Apr 2004 UTC
 * that image is from the Hibernia Bank holdup, in San Francisco, not the Crocker holdup (just watched a doco on it 10 mins ago) -- Generica 03:37, Jul 31, 2004 (UTC)

From what I read at another source ([] in German) there was an earlier robbery from which the mentioned photo originated which was commited before the Inglewood incident.

The photo ([Hearst surveillance video still]) is Hearst at the Hibernia Bank (owned by her friend's father, I believe). In her trial, she asserted that surveilance showed 3 SLA guns trained on her. As for the Harrises, Every Secret Thing relates that they were given immunity to testify against Patty. An An 04:59, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Removed because POV
As apparent, the following text is extremely POV. I salvaged it here because some of it must be added to the article as it contains also important information that should be added to the article in NPOV format. -Lokakyy 23:44, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"The reality is that the members of the SLA were, and still are, for the most part a very hypocritical group of liars as well as cowardly people. Patty Hearst was and remains the exception to this sociopathic lack of character.

This is proven by the the fact that the surviving SLA members pursued a middle class or better American lifestyle in later years. Keep in mind that this was in fact the same culture that they had attempted to destroy.

As an example, Kathleen Soliah had fled California and married a physician, and William Harris, while he stayed in California, married an attorney after his marriage with Emily Harris ended. As a further example, Emily Harris after her first prison term became a computer administrator, drawing a six-figure salary, and she and a companion of hers, prior to her most recent conviction, still own at last report a house north of Pasadena worth over $1,000,000.

It is therefore evident that the SLA members as they matured wanted material comfort and wealth and did not find the idea of being urban revolutionaries inviting any longer. Also, the children and friends of Kathleen Soliah never mentioned in public the murder of Myrna Opsahl, or the prior killing of Marcus Foster, and never offerred any regrets. The general impression was that the life of Opsahl and that of Marcus Foster meant nothing to them.

The only member of the SLA who ever "came clean" on a totally voluntary basis was Patricia Hearst, and the evidence strongly shows that she was a victim of brainwashing and thus was not a true member as she joined under duress. Contrast the courageous public admission of Patty Hearst with that of the other SLA members, who denied involvement in the Opsahl murder for decades. Patricia Hearst thus in the whole affair showed a strength of character and a conscience that was very much in contrast with that of the SLA membership as a whole.

In addition it is evident that as Patty Hearst was born into wealth she was not impressed that much by money and developed human qualities rather than the twisted class hatred of the SLA.

Recognizing this, President Clinton pardoned her as he saw that Patty Hearst's brainwashed behavior was not a natural trait of Patty Hearst as an individual.

While Patty Hearst and her family have always been generous philanthropists, one should note that there appears to be no record of the other members of the SLA ever giving a single dollar to charity, despite their rhetoric."

I also removed this sentence "(using today's loose definition; a better description is "politically inspired criminal gang")" from the beginning. While it might be somewhat correct to label SLA as a criminal gang, I think that the term "terrorist group" already explains that. It is of course true that SLA and many other similar groups around the world had more or less ambiguous political aims and in practice robbed banks etc. their primary purpose was to be a revolutionary (terrorist) group - I think that as they made bomb attacks which gave them no financial gain, they differ fundamentally from just being a criminal gang.

Made some changes...
I made some relatively minor changes, but honestly, i question the neutrality and factual basis of the entire article. i admit though, it seems a bit difficult to find in-depth, objective information about the SLA--Something 19:13, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC).

Reduce POV - stick to the facts

 * I don't think we'll ever know for sure what happened. Every Secret Thing is very POV (for obvious reasons) and none of the other SLA members have relaly written a memoir. The film Guerilla is pretty good and getting into the mentality of the SLA at the time (I find), and contrasted sharply with Patty. I think that telling the chronology, raising the issues and arguments of the time, and telling whoc was involved and at what stage is about all that can be done. These things are at least accepted facts. This article has recently been edited to bring it from a sensationalist 'storytelling' to a fact-based / journalistic mode, but there's still a way to go on that project. An An 23:22, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Without any special knowledge of the SLA, or even a careful evaluation of the various past and present assertions in the article, let me endorse your proposal to limit the article to verifiable information. Even if that makes for a shorter and less illuminiating article, we should stick to what is most verifiable. However, it is also appropriate to mention the various unverified, but notable claims made by participants, so long as we are careful to attribute those claims to the respective writers. Though it can be a bit tedious, there is nothing wrong with writing, "According to ___, the SLA was motivated by ___". Anyway, these are comments from the gallery. Thanks for helping to bring this article up to a higher standard. Cheers, -Willmcw 23:38, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

Partial sentence
"The next action taken by the SLA was to rob the Hibernia Bank, an incident where two civilians were shot. Cinque's communique account of this robbery is dry, and attempts to rationalise the accidental nature of the two shootings (Stone 2004)." -- This is a partial sentence and it doesn't make sense to me but I dont have knowledge enough to correct it. attempts to rationalise the accidental nature of the two shootings...what? Pacian 07:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Pacian; I can't quite see how, or which sentence is partial. Can you maybe give an example of how it could be made whole? In terms of the content of the sentence, I agree that it is a little bit POV - it attributes thoughts and feelings to cinque which he may not have had. This is the nature of the whole experience of documenting the SLA - no-one knows for sure what most of them thought, felt and did because most of them are dead, and of those who are not dead, many have moved on to play other roles in life and may not want to be truthful about their experience. However, this sentence describes the actual communique as played in the Stone documentary film of 2004 (its really good and you might want to see it). Cinque does attempt to rationalise the shootings by saying something like "we didn't want to hurt anyone, but they got in the way of our armed revolution...they were casualties of war" (I can't quote it verbatim, though I did look for the sources). An An 23:10, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
 * You know now tht I look at it I'm not sure what I was thinking. Maybe I thought it meant shootings' and I expected something like "the two shootings' occurances" or something. Disregard my comment. Pacian 05:21, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh cool, no worries then! An An 13:31, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

prior relationship
I have read that Hearst knew Cinque before the kidnapping, and may have left with him voluntarily. I have even seen it alleged that she was never locked up, and was merely continuing a pre-existing sexual relationship with him. Is this conspiratorial madness? I may be able to dig up a source. Uucp 19:18, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Unlikely. Why/how would newspaper heiress know escaped radical black convict? Sounds made up. Post your "source", so we may look out for them.GangofOne 04:25, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I was close &mdash; the claim is that she had previously known Willie Wolfe, the white SLA member to whom she publicly proclaimed her love after the brainwashing, and that she might have helped stage her kidnapping in order to be with him. I first read this in a book that I can not now find, but it is online as well. In the Crime Library (http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/terrorists/hearst/6.html?sect=22), for example,


 * "Scott claimed that Patty had resisted returning to her parents, had been lovers with Willie Wolfe (rather than being raped by him), had helped to plan the kidnap to escape her impending marriage, and was the most zealous member of the SLA"


 * Scott apparently has been making this claim since the 1970s.Uucp 10:42, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Scott got all his information from Hearst long after Patty was in the SLA. Of course she resisted returning to her parents. She WAS lovers at that point with Wolfe (and the rest) but her book says she was raped at the beginning. I don't see any evidence she knew Wolfe before the kidnapping, although she may have made some statements like that in her brainwashed, selfjustifying, condition. She may have had doubts about her impending marriage--they never got together again-- but to plan the kidnapping, highly implausible, but she may have SAID something along these lines, as a selfjustification to cover up cognitive dissonance between being a member of SLA and being kidnapped. There was nothing pro-SLA about her before the kidnapping. Prior relationship, completely implausible GangofOne 17:09, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

one can not assume that Patty Hearst was Brainwashed, there is not reliable evidence to tell us this is true.

pov headline
The Symbionese Liberation Army was an American group that was considered a revolutionary vanguard army and was a proponent of radical leftist ideology.

can we start with the provable facts here? they had a philosophy...sorta....but i'm not sure anyone considered them a "vanguard army". there's no citation for that and it romanticizes their existence. in comparison, there's no question they were a criminal gang.

Justforasecond 06:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * They considered themselves to be a revolutionary vanguard army.  An An  21:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Come now, that's not what the first sentence really implies "...was considered by its members..." Justforasecond 22:40, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't say that it did imply that. I think it would be better if it did imply that only though.  An An  22:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I've changed it to say that they considered themselved to be a revolutionary group. The Stone documentary does actually lend weight to the assertion that they were for a time considered to be a revolutionary army. Now, with the benefit of hindsight, we know that not to be true. However, at the time, there was very little info about the SLA, their size and their purpose.  An An  22:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * To second AnAn, the Stone documentary indicates that the FBI and local police believed the SLA to be a revolutionary army, particularly during their panic early in the Hearst affair. Fifelfoo 23:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Not sure you are seconding AnAn, she altered the statement already. If the statement was referring to the FBI and local police, the SLA was "erroneously considered to be a vanguard revolutionary army for a very short period of time" would be more correct.   It's not a matter of technical accuracy, its a matter of POV.   Usually we'd put the truth about an entity before the misconceptions.   Justforasecond 00:16, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Ironically
Ironically, Foster had opposed the use of identification cards in his schools, and his plan was a watered down version of similar plans that had been proposed by others.

Do we have any more information about this? Foster was the school superintendant and was...after all...the boss. I heard he supported the plan and that it wasn't your run-of-the-mill id card to get you into football games sorta thang but a more extensive, spy on the kids measure. I am having a hard time finding any details on it. It was 23 years ago and it seems everyone is content to keep repeating this lemma about "id cards" and Foster opposing the plan and grudgingly looking for a compromise.

btw Oakland high schools all have high fences and in the 60s had police on campus. Some have metal detectors. Not sure the police are such a horrible thing, with all the violence that goes on. But with fences, armed guards, metal detectors and a number for every resident...a place does begin to look prison-ish.

Justforasecond 05:36, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Its in Stone, 2004.  An An  06:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you mean more info is in Stone?  Do you know the title of the book?  Justforasecond 06:19, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Geneva Convention
what is the pointof the section on the geneva convention? Other than the groups mention of it. It seems sort of random and thus confusing. Especially that part about things under the modern laws? this part: "Under the modern Geneva convention regarding wars within states the actions of the SLA would probably be considered legal, however, this convention is very generous to combatant forces, allowing them to arrest and try opposing forces according to the arresting power's law." Additionally, does an "army" of 13 people count as a 'power' with the ability to carry out a war? Novium 06:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The geneva conditions would not apply.  Al Gonzales has taught us all a few things in this regard.   The conventions only apply to traditional armies wearing uniforms.  Guerillas and terrorists don't qualify.  Justforasecond 18:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Broadcast technology
Hi.....great article, but just made a small correction and amplification to the brief paragraph about the live coverage of the shootout. Coverage of live news events was always "possible," even way back into the 50's, but very problematic with huge mobile vans the size of Winnebagos, 300-pound cameras and cables as thick as a horse's leg. It could be done (after all, it was one of these rolling monstrosities that broadcast the live images of Jack Ruby murdering Lee Harvey Oswald a decade eariler), but not without a good deal of time spent preparing and setting up. What changed by the time of the SLA shootout was the introduction of smaller portable cameras that could be shouldered by one man but still produce a broadcast quality signal, much smaller videotape machines (3/4" tape versus the old 2" monstrosities) and smaller, more nimble vans. Thus, it was much easier to quickly travel to and set up at a rapidly developing event like the shootout. It was a breakthrough in technology, true, but it simply made such coverage more efficient, practical, and commonplace. 4.235.15.192 22:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Redirects?
I'm removing the self-referencing redirects (e.g. clicking Patricia Soltysik redirects to the article the user is reading). It's sloppy and non-Wiki. Robko626 19:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with these pages is that the names at the SLA article are linked to the redirect pages. I'm putting the redirects back and cutting the links at the SLA page. I hope that nobody just links the names without seeing where they go.  If somebody wants to write a page about Little or Remiro later, they can delete the redirects and rewikify the SLA page.--Hjal 08:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Wrong Robert Stone
Hi,

The Robert Stone link points to the novelist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stone when in fact it should point to the British director: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0832134/

Interesting article!

-M —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.215.139.56 (talk) 14:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

SLA Hydra Image
Hey does anyone know what happened to the SLA hydra image (previously at Image:Slahydra.png)? An An 07:25, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Added new one --Esemono 01:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

which country?
The country in which they were active is not mentioned in the introduction. —AldeBaer 18:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * -- fixed -- Esemono 01:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)