Talk:Symbiote (comics)/Archive 1

Appropriate imagery
I think it's important that I clarify something. This is a dumping ground for images. One cannot simply "pick and choose" a symbiote/host combo image and place it here. The original may be accused of favoritism toward Venom, but notice that there are no images taken from that article. The images here should display only symbiotes. A symbiote fully bonded with someone is just another character image that probably already belongs somewhere else. Point is, stop adding Toxin, Charage, or any other character to this article. A Symbiote alone or in the process of bonding is okay. ACS (Wikipedian); Talk to the Ace. See what I've edited. 21:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

About the Origin
I really don't believe that John Jameson brought the Symbiote to Earth. You're confusing the origin with the one from SP:TAS. I'm not even sure if it has even been confirmed, or if someone has been watching far too many fan-trailers. If it is canon, please tell me where you found this info, until then, I will wait for a safer time to take the text out.

67.160.13.149 10:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)Darkton


 * Wow...more brillance. New comments at the bottom, first off. Try clicking the plus sign. Second, look at the citation. Move like in the Spider-Man 3 film articlem, this article cites its sources. Don't remove anything...in fact, don't even touch the page until you better understand how information is added or removed on Wikipedia. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 19:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I only did that 'cause I didn't really see the citation. It didn't really lead me anywhere. Well, I guess since it's true, I'll have to believe it.

67.160.13.149 12:24, 22 December 2006 (UTC)Darkton

No it's not true. But people here on Wiki seem to think it is. Wait for the movie to be released. Dark Spidey 04:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Symbiote's Weakness and abilities
I though I remember reading some where that symbiotes can only expand a certain length or can they just grow non stop. Also I read that electricity just surged over their body without any affect or does it have an effect. The minute I know for sure or the minute some one responds here I shall put the info back into the article. Thanks 8:43 April 2 2007 (UTC)
 * All your edis seem very unverifiable and unneeded judging by a quick glance. I think electricity was only really a weakness in the Ultimate version. The regular one just seems weak to fire and sonics. I'm sure they're a limit to how far the symbiote can strech, eventually they'll run out of mass.


 * I remember one story where Venom was extending so many tendrils trying to hit a foe that there wasn't enough left to cover all of Eddie's body and some spots were left open to attack, so there is a limit to how much they can cover.--Viridistalk 03:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for helping me but one thing, the reason why I put that the symbiote is weak to electricity in the regular marvel universe is because of that time when Electro fought Black Suited Spiderman. I though Electro beat the crap out of hime and some of the weakened symbiote fell of Peter into a sizziling puff of smoke from the electricity. Is that acurate or should I delete it?
 * I'm not sure... I've never read that. Can you list an issue or something for someone with access to this to find it (I don't)?--Viridistalk 17:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it was from the spectacular spiderman issue either 135 or 125. One of thoes. If it's inaccurate should I just delete what I put about electricity being a weakness of the symbiote?
 * Yeah, I think so.--Viridistalk 19:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay I'll delete it. O yeah I remeber now. Excuse me for my stupidity. I remeber that electricity just ran over the suits. Sorry for my blindness. I just read that. Oh and not trying to be a know it all. I read that symbiotes can expand as far as they want as long as they have an object or something to do it on and around. If you have any problems with these changes I just added please tell me. Thanks. ManofSTEEL2772 But if a church bell rang(sonic sound is a weakness of symbiotes) would it hurt the host? Reply soon! Spider-man freak 6/4/07 5:04

Fair use rationale for Image:Aliensymbiote.jpg
Image:Aliensymbiote.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 18:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The Other?
I was wondering howcome sometimes in the comics, wearers of symbiote refer to them as their "other" and should that note be added to the page? - RVDDP2501 15:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, something small, maybe. Find a place for it.--Viridistalk 02:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:NEWAVN035 col3.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 16:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Aliensymbiote.jpg
Image:Aliensymbiote.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 17:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Ultimate venom.jpg
The image Image:Ultimate venom.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


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First appearance was Amazing Spider-Man #252
Came out months before the first appearance in the Secret Wars.

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Comics:Amazing_Spider-Man_Vol_1_252

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Comics:Marvel_Super_Heroes_Secret_Wars_Vol_1_8

Look at the dates...AS-M 252 is dated May while MSHSW 8 is dated December. Why do people insist on the Secret Wars issue? It isn't even worth much because the first appearance is recognized as A-SM 252. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vaginsh (talk • contribs) 20:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Carnage the thousandth?
I remember reading the Venom vs Carnage TP a while back (it's the arc where Toxin is born), and I was pretty sure that it said Toxin is the thousandth, not Carnage. Can someone clarify that? Dac 10:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I read that, too. Toxin is the 1,000th. Where exactly here does it say Carnage?--Viridistalk 10:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Two places. End of the "Origin" paragraph: "While the number of symbiotes in existence at present is unknown, Venom tells Carnage that he is the nine hundred and ninety ninth in his line, and making Carnage's offspring Toxin the thousandth and first(Carnage being the thousandth)."  That, I think, was a mistranslation of what Venom is saying.  I think Venom is telling Carnage that he, Carnage, is the 999th.
 * The other instance is in the "Personality" paragraph: "according to Venom, this could also be because the thousandth symbiote of the line is subject to mental breakdown (though, as noted above, Toxin is the thousand-and-first)." That parenthesis is therefore incorrect. Thanks for clarifying.  Dac 11:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Carnage being the 1000th symbiote makes more sense than Toxin being the 1000th, as both the Venom symbiote and the Carnage symbiote are more mentally unstable than the Toxin symbiote is. 142.26.194.190 (talk) 16:11, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

LF symbiotes
Someone has taken away the LF symbiotes names from the article (Lasher, Phage, Agony and Riot). I realise that they were created by fans and are not thier official names but they are better known by these names now and could be considered canon considering what happened to scream. (Scream was a fan name for the LF symbiotes leader but in 1999 a comic was published refering to her as Scream. I'm jus gunna put it back to how it was until someone gives a reason why it should stay as it is. 81.98.227.10 (talk) 23:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If you realise that they are fan names and not official Marvel names then there is no justification in editing them back in. We're supposed to contribute facts. Nothing is official or canon until Marvel says it is.


 * Scream was never a fan name for the yellow symbiote character. She had an action figure produced in the Spider-Man: Venom: Planet of the Symbiotes toy line from 1996. The slim green symbiote character also had an action figure produced named Lasher. Unlike Scream, Lasher's name has never been used in a Marvel publication, but it still exists on an official Marvel product and so could still be considered his "real" name.


 * The other three Life Foundation symbiotes did not have action figures. There was an action figure called Riot, but that was a four-armed character who had never appeared in the comics and had a biography on the back of the box that made it clear he was not one of the five Life Foundation symbiotes.


 * Phage is short for Xenophage, an alien from the Venom comic books that is not a symbiote - it eats symbiotes. The Xenophage action figure was called Phage. I have absolutely no idea why a certain fan chose to use this name in reference to one of the Life Foundation symbiotes, it's a completely separate and unrelated character.


 * The name Agony comes from nowhere. It was just made up.


 * Allow me to reiterate, the only two Life Foundation symbiotes officially named were Scream (the yellow one) and Lasher (the green one), both in the action figure line. The only one to have their name carried over into the comic books and publications is Scream.


 * Officially the others do not have codenames until Marvel tells us otherwise. Let's not purposefully spread misinformation. --Crazy Penguin (talk) 20:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not really spreading mis-information. The fact is that these characters are better known by thier fan names and if anyone was really interested then they'd click the link and find out for them selves that the names are not official. If I was on the net and saw a link saying "Leslie Gesneria's symbiote" I wouldn't know what it means but if I saw "the Agony symbiote" I would, (and I know I'm not alone on that) and I think that at the end of the day that's what matters. 81.98.227.10 (talk) 22:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but at the end of the day, you're wrong. Wikipedia isn't a place for listing characters by their fan-created names. That's called original research, and it's something Wikipedia has a strict policy against. DeadpoolRP (talk) 19:51, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Since the fan-created names keep being restored despite the fact that they're fan-created, it's been discussed here, and the page itself specifically says which symbiotes were toys and have names, verification for everyone that Phage, Agony, and Riot are not official names can be found in this post on this thread on the forums for Marvel's Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe and Official Index to the Marvel Universe books. The post is by Stuart Vandall, one of the main handbook writers, whose job includes researching these kinds of things. He has been used as a source for comics-related articles throughout Wikipedia, as have these forums, so if anyone wants to yet again restore the incorrect names for these characters, they need to, first, discuss it here, and second, provide an actual reliable source for the information, not just "I had such-and-such a toy" or "I have such-and-such a toy" or "no, these are real names," etc. Changes need to be verifiable, folks. DeadpoolRP (talk) 15:13, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * DeadpoolRP is completely correct is his concerns. The inclusion of "fan names" in a manor that displays them as canon is misleading and I believe goes against what is meant to be presented on Wikipedia.  There must be a way to present theses characters without the inclusion of any fan created identification in any way stronger than perhaps a footnote. --66.110.6.119 (talk) 17:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Here's a picture of the Symbiote toy named Riot http://www.comiccollectorlive.com/LiveData/Issue.aspx?id=c8b4878c-68be-4303-b48b-b90a4515ceb8 Note the four arms. Note the red patches. And here's Trevor Cole, who some people insist is called Riot because "that's what his toy was called": http://www.comicvine.com/trevor-cole/29-40793/all-images/108-210691/riot_998/105-662311/ Note how he's got two arms and is gray with no red patches, and looks utterly dissimilar to the Riot toy. There's another version of the Riot toy http://www.comiccollectorlive.com/LiveData/Issue.aspx?id=82dee13b-8563-4b86-975b-8a9f3e841851 but he's purple and still has four arms, and still looks nothing like Trevor Cole.
 * Here's a list of all the Planet of the Symbiotes toys, with pictures of both toys and the boxes with their names on them

http://www.comiccollectorlive.com/LiveData/CoverTitle_List.aspx?id=1e739196-8089-4368-9a8f-ae32fa469b36 Note the utter lack of Agony or Phage toys. For anyone who wishes to claim any of these names have been officially given anywhere, please find an image showing the character with the name attached from the computer game, or a toy with the box, or a comic. Cite a reference, not vague memory. Those who are saying that Agony, Phage and Riot are not official names have cited references. If anyone wants to disprove that, they need to produce evidence. 109.145.21.188 (talk) 18:59, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Are toy releases to be automatically be considered canon? --70.26.111.213 (talk) 21:21, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

No, toy releases are not. However, they do at least give the Lasher name a small degree of legitimacy in the absence of any official codename. More importantly, fans trying to claim Riot, Agony and Phage are official names cite the toys as the source of these names - the fact that the toys don't provide these names means these names lack ANY claim to legitimacy. They are pure and utter fancruft. 90.219.225.168 (talk) 13:38, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I have dropped my fight to insert the names I believe to be correct because I cannot find a source. (I would like to point out that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.") However, that does not allow you to violate Wikipedia policy and use an unreliable source. ''' Sp id ey  104  21:03, 29 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Since you're so convinced that the source is unreliable, could you please explain why it's so unreliable? It's the official forums site for Marvel Comics' index, handbook, and encyclopedia publications, run and moderated by the writers, editors, and researchers for said publications. The post and thread in question is by Stuart Vandal, one of the lead writers and editors on the books in question, and part of his job is researching and verifying the very type of information that's in question here. Heck, he very well could be the one who gave the LF symbiotes their real (civilian) names, or if not, someone on his staff did or talked to the characters' creators or the comics editors involved to get their names. I have seen Stuart Vandal and the X-Fan forums cited several different places on Wikipedia, and I've seen major contributors to WikiProject Comics back up Mr. Vandal's reliability, including Luminum here. To make matters worse, I've read on the forums about Mr. Vandal's very low opinion of Wikipedia because of all of the incorrect information, fancruft, and other fabrication that shows up here and that contributors fight to keep on Wikipedia when someone comes along with the correct information, so it would be nice if we actually proved him wrong every once in a while. DeadpoolRP (talk) 21:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I have never seen that source before, so maybe it has vetted elsewhere and I didn't see that. The link in the other talk page you linked to was broken, so it did nothing to confirm or deny the reliability of that source. All I have seen is that the reference you posted was a message board post. Wikipedia does not support message boards as reliable sources because the authors on message boards are not verifiable. (see Identifying reliable sources) ''' Sp id ey  104  15:12, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Per the link you provided for identifying reliable sources: "For that reason self-published media..." including "Internet forum postings...are largely not acceptable." but "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." As one of the handbook writers, I'd argue the poster at the cited link is an established expert on the topic, and thus fits the exception listed whereby self-published material can be accepted. The forum is listed as the Official Handbooks forum on Marvel.com http://marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU (last paragraph, and before you say that is a wiki, it's a locked page which only editors can amend, which makes it a verifiable source per the link you provided: "collaboratively created websites such as wikis, and so forth, with the exception of material on such sites that is labeled as originating from credentialed members of the sites' editorial staff, rather than users.") And since Marvel's own site lists the forum in question as the official handbooks' forum, that should be sufficient to confirm the posters listed there as Handbook writers are who they claim to be. 86.177.111.19 (talk) 16:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * "it's a locked page which only editors can amend"
 * I was unaware of that aspect. I was dubious of the reliability of the author of that post being who they said they were. I'll take you at your word and I rescind my objection to the source. ''' Sp id ey  104  14:54, 1 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Adding - one of the posters above was part wrong when they said there was no Phage action figure. There was, and you can see it here: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=380364212418 and here http://www.amazon.com/Spiderman-Venom-Along-Spider-Figure/dp/B000UZQ004 However, it looks nothing like the Symbiote fans call Phage http://images.wikia.com/marveldatabase/images/8/89/Carl_Mach_%28Earth-616%29.jpg because he's based on this enemy of the Symbiotes:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix5/phagevenm.htm And, just to clarify before anyone tries to use this to argue that this proves Mr. Vandal's post is inaccurate, he doesn't make the mistake the earlier poster here did - he acknowledged there was a Phage action figure, but noted it wasn't a Symbiote. 86.177.111.19 (talk) 16:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Other symbiotes
edited the other symbiote section. No major changes, just cleane it up abit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.227.10 (talk) 20:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to show the symbiote names for the Life Foundation symbiotes, hope nobody minds, I'll put hosts in brackets. Buddenon (talk) 17:57, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Gave Zzxz his name, found in Nova #28, and updated his info a little. 24.22.246.210 (talk) 12:57, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I can't find any information about this 'Vile' character, besides this wiki. There was no 'Spider man: Venom #4' published in januray 2015. Can anyone give a reference to his appearance? 77.173.58.80 (talk) 12:53, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 26 June 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a rough consensus that the comics character is not the primary topic for the term "Symbiote" and that should be turned into a dab page. Pinging, and  in the hope they know what should be on the dab. Jenks24 (talk) 09:58, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Symbiote (comics) → Symbiote – Unnecessary disambiguation. "Symbiote" is a made-up word used only in Marvel Comics fiction to refer to a fictional symbiotic life-form. It does not have any real connection to "symbiosis" outside of that. Just because a sixth-grader might mistake the thing they've been reading about in the comics for a real-life symbiont (ask me how I know), doesn't mean Wikipedia should feed their confusion by redirecting to "Symbiosis" just because it sounds similar. The word "symbiote" doesn't even appear in the Oxford Dictionaries, English or American. Outside of Marvel, it's not even a real word. Any misuse of "symbiote" to mean "symbiont" in real life is due to the popularity of Venom, Carnage, et al. –  Jujutsuan  ( Please notify with &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; &#124; talk &#x7C; contribs) 20:03, 25 June 2016 (UTC), amended with further rationale 05:20, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:49, 26 June 2016 (UTC)


 * See Special:Diff/726981419. This will clearly be disputed by others. There's a whole history of the redirect being retargeted. — Andy W. ( talk  · ctb) 20:25, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
 * If that's the extent of the history, that's not exactly a well-established consensus. That's three editors butting heads without stopping to discuss. We can have that discussion, but that history is nothing so strong as to ultimately prevent the move.  Jujutsuan  ( Please notify with &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; &#124; talk &#x7C; contribs) 06:31, 26 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Better redirect Symbiote to Symbiosis. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:49, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose, retarget "symbiote" to "symbiosis". There are numerous Google Scholar results for the use of the term symbiote in biology predating the use of the term in comics. See this Scholar search. Plantdrew (talk) 06:24, 26 June 2016 (UTC). On further reflection, I still oppose the move, but I think it would be better to make symbiote into a disambiguation page for the Marvel comics universe term and the biology term. Plantdrew (talk) 07:39, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment and new rationale I see my rationale above was mistaken. I still think the nomionation stands, though, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.  Most uses of "symbiote", as far as I'm aware, refer to the Marvel characters, while all uses of "symbiont" refer to nonfictional biology. (I've never seen Marvel use "symbiont" for Venom et al.)  In common usage there has been a divide between the two forms.  Jujutsuan  ( Please notify with &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; &#124; talk &#x7C; contribs) 10:27, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The Marvel universe term certainly has a very strong showing in Google results for "symbiote". However, looking at the incoming links to Symbiote, Marvel is not the only fictional usage of the term. Symbiote also shows up in Dune, DC/Wildstorm comics and various other media franchises. There are 33 incoming links. 1 is a hatnote from symbiosis to the Marvel universe term. 7 are biology related. 8 are related to the Marvel universe. 17 are related to other media franchises. The biology term is the best existing target for the non-Marvel media franchises. Marvel's usage is the single most significant use in fiction, but it seems to be that the best solution is to disambiguate. Plantdrew (talk) 07:39, 27 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose "symbiote" is not a made-up word and a googlebooks search for the term turns up results in works such as the Encyclopedia of Entomology - Volume 4 (2008), "The Ecology of a Symbiotic Community: The component symbiote community of the Japanese lizard Takydromus tachydromoides (Schlegel)" (1997), Moving Target Defense: Creating Asymmetric Uncertainty for Cyber Threats (2011, which uses the term to define certain kinds of software), Recent Advances in Intrusion Detection: 14th International Symposium, RAID 2011, Menlo Park, CA, USA, September 20-21, 2011, Proceedings (2012, which uses the term in the field of cyber security), All about Bacteria (2012), Cell to Cell Signals in Plant, Animal and Microbial Symbiosis (2013),Insect Endocytobiosis (1989), Evolution by Association: A History of Symbiosis (1994), Almost Christian: What the Faith of Our Teenagers is Telling the American Church (2010, which curiously uses and analyses both the biological and the Marvel terms to draw parallels to recent phenomenons in Christianity in the United States), Microbial Ecology: An Evolutionary Approach (2006), Agricultural Microbiology (2007), Scientific American: Supplement - Volume 88 (1919), Structure and function of the intracellular symbiotes of the pea aphid, Acyrthosiphon pisum (1975), and other 41,000 results that include both non-fiction and fictional uses. Dimadick (talk) 17:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.