Talk:Symphonic poem

Untitled
Are the 'best-known' tone poems really those by R. Strauss?? I'd have thought that Sibelius 'Swan of Tunola', Mussorgski's 'Night on bare Mountain' and Debussy 'Prelude l'apres-midi' were better contenders ; besides Strauss' tone-poems are really quite turgid, and really only the over-played opening bars of 'Thus spake' qualify as  'best-known'.Norwikian 19:34, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * You're right, it's overly bold to say that Strauss' stuff in the best known - they might be, they might not be, it's not clear enough for us to say. I've edited it. --Camembert


 * I agree fully, especially if you consider the general populous -- 'Romeo and Juliet' is far and away the one that has the most well known melody, moreso than Thus Sprake I'd say. Though as a whole, I'd say 'The Moldau' is the top contender overall.


 * I heard a great John Williams concert last night and when "Close encounters of the third Kind" (1977) was played, I said to my husband, "I believe this is a Tone Poem (Program Music). Besides, John Williams mostly wrote for Spielberg films; this is a valid vote for Tone Poem. He wanted to write "space" film music and he did. ET was one of those "space" films.  So, Tone Poems are not altogether dead, I would say.RebeccArranger (talk) 13:05, 12 June 2015 (UTC)RebeccArranger

And this article could use some good hominization, especially in that paragraph with the list. Melodia Chaconne 9 July 2005 19:11 (UTC)


 * The paragraph should certainly be expanded to incorporate the "list" as examples, I'd hope, rather than being reduced to one of those uninterpreted and uninterpretable bulleted lists. Would that "hominize" it? --Wetman 8 July 2005 22:39 (UTC)

I just reworded the first two paragraphs of the article to fix clumsy sentence structures and the bizarrely wayward first paragraph; added a paragraph about the history of the symphonic poem after Liszt invented it (which curiously was not addressed before!), mentioned a bit of why it's important, and added some examples to the list. Also, I don't think we need such specific discussion of Strauss' Don Quixote; there's a separate article on it. Brianrein 20:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Webber
Can anyone tell me who wrote this article? I'm looking for a knowedgable expert on symphonic poems. Thanks. Robgee9 18:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Concert Overture
The article for concert overture is redirected to the symphonic poem. I do not think these are synonymous with each other.


 * Then why not contribute a paragraph here explaining how the concert overture evolved into a single-movement atmospheric piece for the concert hall in the hands of Liszt and was renamed by him "symphonic poem"? --Wetman 03:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * They are not synonymous with each other and probably should not share an article. I'm not expert enough to write an article on it, but the main difference is that Concert Overtures have a strong musical organization, and poems are much more free with their structure. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.210.39.37 (talk) 17:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

Another quote from "The Enjoyment of Music" by Joseph Machlis and Kristine Forney shows that Concert Overture and Symphonic Poem/Tone Poem do not mean the same thing... "It (Symphonic Poem) differs from the concert overture in one important respect: whereas the concert overture generally retains one of the traditional Classical forms, the symphonic poem is much freer in its structure."


 * Just a minor hint: Most commonly, Franz Liszt is regarded as "inventor" of the genre of the "Symphonic Poem". Several of his "Symphonic Poems", for example "Tasso", "Les Preludes", "Orpheus" and "Prometheus" were actually composed as overtures. I am also remembering R. Wagner, who in a letter to Liszt called his own Tannhäuser-Overture "Symphonic Poem".80.144.127.43 (talk) 13:26, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Suggested structure?
Actually, I was thinking of borrowing this skeleton from the New Grove:


 * 1) Intro paragraphs
 * 2) Origins
 * 3) Liszt
 * 4) The Czech lands (Smetana, Dvorak, etc.)
 * 5) Russia
 * 6) France
 * 7) Germany
 * 8) Other countries
 * 9) Bibliography
 * 10) External links (if any)
 * 11) References

I'm open to suggestions. This means a lot of effort expanding the article but the work itself seems pretty strightforward and would allow expansion by others. Jonyungk (talk) 04:32, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Among this article's inadequacies...
...is the opening sentence. It reads:
 * "A symphonic poem or tone poem is a piece of orchestral music in one movement in which some extramusical program provides a narrative or illustrative element".

People may care to compare this with the opening sentence in the New Grove Second Edition:
 * "Symphonic poem: An orchestral form in which a poem or programme provides a narrative or illustrative basis."

See? The New Grove one makes sense; the wikipedia one is senseless (an 'element'? What the hell is an 'element'?).

Someone, in other words, merely lifted the first sentence from the New Grove without attribution -- and in trying to disguise their theft, turned the stolen object into meaningless, senseless rubbish... Pfistermeister (talk) 20:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * For the tone deaf, apparently, the narrative element might be the whole thing. "Extramusical" is the element that makes the Wikipedia sentence the winner!--Wetman (talk) 02:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)--Wetman (talk) 02:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Utterly ridiculous statement. For one thing, there's no way a 'programme' could be anything other than 'extramusical'. The plagiarised, inept wikipedia version is therefore tautological as well as senseless. Pfistermeister (talk) 07:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Now now, children, manners please! Pfistermeister, if you don't like the sentence, (or other parts of the article) why not employ your wisdom in rewriting it? (Always bearing in mind of course WP:NPOV). Respectfully yours, --Smerus (talk) 11:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I would disagree with Grove's designating the symphonic poem as a "form". It is a musical genre, which by its nature does not have to have a prescribed form (i.e., structure) -- although some symphonic poems have been analyzed as revealing some sort of sonata-allegro design. Mademoiselle Fifi (talk) 12:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree this article on the whole, and especially the lead, needs a tremendous amount of work, but could we agree on something along these lines for the opening sentence:
 * A symphonic poem or tone poem is a piece of orchestral music in one principal self-contained section called a movement in which a program from a poem, a story or novel, a painting, or another source is illustrated or evoked.

It's a little clumsy but at least it spells out what a symphonic poem is and what it is supposed to do for someone who may not know what "extramusical", "programmatic" or a "movement" is. Jonyungk (talk) 20:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Classic and Romantic Music History
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