Talk:Symphony No. 39 (Haydn)

Date of composition
I've changed 1766-1767 to 1767-1768 (Robbins Landon thinks 1768). It's certainly one of the earliest of the Sturm und Drang series of symphonies. --Zeisseng 18:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Bassoon in scoring?
Robbins Landon says this is scored for "2 oboes, 4 horns, strings and continuo (bassoon, harpsichord)". Does this parenthetical mention of the bassoon count? Its ambiguous enough for me to ask here. DavidRF (talk) 16:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone's Haydn the truth
The Wiki for Symphony 39 describes it as the first Sturm & Drang symphony in a minor key. Yet Lamentatione, no. 26, (d minor) is listed in Wiki as a Sturm & Drang work. Some musicologists appear to have a bit too much Sturm in their Drang. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthromorph2000 (talk • contribs) 08:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I missed this long ago. The Hoboken/Mandycewski numbers of Haydn's symphonies are not always in chronological order. No. 39 is known to be older than No. 26.DavidRF (talk) 02:07, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Haydn as Forerunner: A Voice of Dissent
In general, too much has been said on a shaky foundation regarding the influence between composers, a field that demands more and more precise knowledge than we have today. In the case of no. 39, the following link disputes the claims that the symphony inspired Wanhal, in a manner that I find convincing: http://library.duke.edu/music/vanhal/wanhal5.html Even more is said on the matter in Bryan's book "Johann Wanhal, Viennese Symphonist". I think the claim at least could be moderated in some way. Sirion123 (talk) 21:53, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I removed it. APBrown concurs, saying the symphonies of Vanhal and Ordonez cannot be dated accurately enough for any assumption of influence.DavidRF (talk) 02:05, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The question then remains, whether one should accept the claims of the same source regarding the symphonies of Mozart and J.C. Bach. In the case of Mozart I find it plausible, as I've seen evidence that goes a long way towards suggesting that he adopted the three Paris symphonies by Haydn in the same keys for his final three symphonies. I was not aware, however, that Bach is supposed to have been influenced by Haydn, and although I would not rule it out, I would assume one ought to find a more scrupulous source than the Landon biography.Sirion123 (talk) 08:11, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Nickname
This article currently gives ("Tempesta di mare") as the nickname for this symphony.

I propose this nickname be removed from the top of the article, which gives it the appearance of legitimacy and currency that might mislead readers. A brief explanation regarding a similar nickname that does appear in one early source ("Il mare turbito") could be offered at a less prominent location in the article. The "Movements" section of the article wouldn't be affected.

Rationale:

There's an inauthentic Austrian manuscript copy of Haydn’s Symphony No.39 in G minor, held in a monastery in St Lambrecht, to which has been added the nickname: “Il mare turbito” (The troubled or turbulent sea). This is noted in the critical edition of the complete symphonies edited by H.C. Robbins Landon and is mentioned in passing or in footnotes in a small number of books and published articles. (One secondary source I've read leads me to believe this nickname was placed above the finale, not at the top of the symphony, but I haven't had a chance to verify that detail.)

This "Il mare turbito" nickname doesn't appear in other 18th-century sources, wasn't given or endorsed by Haydn, and hasn't been adopted by performers or publishers of this symphony. Still, someone in the C18th thought it apt, so it could be worth noting in the article as a matter of historical interest.

As for "Tempesta di mare" (Storm at sea), I haven't been able to find any scholarly source or authoritative edition that refers to this as a nickname for Symphony No.39, and it has no established history of widespread use by performers or publishers of the work. It was added to this article in 2017 without citation or explanatory discussion. If it's to be mentioned at all, a source would be needed.

NB. I've not made this edit myself as I'm a newcomer. I can see that it will also affect the linked master list of Haydn symphonies.

HarmoniousWordsmith (talk) 10:07, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

UPDATE: More than 18 months have passed with no response to this talk entry or correction to the article; I've removed the nickname.

HarmoniousWordsmith (talk) 15:46, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * After talking about this with the above poster off-wiki, I've also removed it from List of symphonies by Joseph Haydn, Sturm und Drang,List of compositions by Joseph Haydn, and Haydn symphonies, along with various places in other language Wikipedias. The only Wikipedia edition that had this nickname with any kind of source is the Italian Wikipedia, which cites this page (which appears to be a collection of program notes from a site that's very widely referenced on that Wikipedia edition). I left it alone there for now. Graham 87 17:21, 29 January 2023 (UTC)