Talk:Symphony No. 7 (Beethoven)

Soundtrack to film: Knowing (film)
I believe this piece appears frequently on the soundtrack to the film Knowing (film)

See discussion on Talk:knowing (film)

Please mention this in the article. Thanks, 86.132.37.52 (talk) 23:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's worthy of encyclopedic coverage. Please see our guideline for trivia.  Them  From  Space  23:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

It's also in The Fall, but I think people can find this information for themselves -- if they have any question about soundtrack, they can just look at IMDb Allie (talk) 21:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The second cut is used as the "main theme" for the sci-fi film Zardoz, in an arrangement for organs and choirs. It also seems to be popular on television as a means of making slow-motion footage of people going about their daily routines look epic and tragic. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 14:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it would suffice to mention that the 2nd movement is enormously popular in media.--Louiedog (talk) 21:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Please be aware that Wikipedia's guidelines toward these kinds of sections has altered since 2009. As stated here TRIVIA these are allowable under certain circumstances. The use of the second movement in numerous films as far back as 1934's The Black Cat would seem to be notable enough for some kind of mention here. Its use in films like The Fall and Photographing Fairies is memorably evocative and directors chose it for a reason. On the other hand both DavidRF and Michael Bednarek had legitimate reasons for the removals that they performed. Don't get me wrong I am not insisting on the inclusion of this item. However, since there will always be someone coming here who will want to add the info I want to make the following suggestions to those who have this page on their watchlist per several of the suggestions here Handling trivia If those of you who oversee this page don't like any of these that is okay. I just wanted to get a conversation going and then we can point editors who want to add soundtrack mentions to this thread when the edits are removed. Thanks for you time in reading this and in any responses that you make. MarnetteD | Talk 15:47, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Return to the brief mention that was in the lead with two or three films mentioned - reached by consensus here - and add a hidden note to not add other films.
 * 2) Return to the brief mention but place it lower down in the article (though as I look at the article I'm not sure that there is a good spot) since its inclusion in the lead seems to be what attracted the continual additions.
 * 3) Include a well crafted "Legacy" (IMO a preferable title to "In Popular Culture") section.
 * 4) Find another website that lists the films that have used this work in their soundtrack and add it to the "External links" section.


 * The second part was also used in the climax of The King's Speech. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 03:48, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Response to this has been underwhelming but I will reiterate one point - any other use inclusion is not lead material. MarnetteD | Talk 15:01, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * 1. I've partially reverted the revert to my edit, removing mention of the King's Speech. Music from the climax of the Best Picture-winning film is not recentism to me but I'm willing to remove it for the sake of avoiding a coattrack of examples.


 * 2. As for the intro, it's bad form to introduce the subject by assuming the reader knows what it is. Introductory sentence should define the subject.


 * 3. The second movement is definitely the best known. E.g. "Some lovers of classical music consider the second movement of Beethoven's Seventh Symphony to be one of the most beautiful pieces ever written.". "The allegretto was the most popular movement and had to be encored. In order to fully analyse the Allegretto, one must first have a basic understanding of the structure of a symphony, what an allegretto is, and the forms therein.".--Louiedog (talk) 19:47, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the general cleanup of the lede. We should not have reverted it out of hand so apologies for that. However, it is just incorrect to use the POV phrase "Best Known" a) there is no evidence provided for this b) POV statements are to be avoided in the lede per the MoS and c) it is can be stated that it is as wll known for Wagner's "apotheosis of the dance" description and for the powerful beauty of all four movements - not just the second. MarnetteD | Talk 20:49, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The importance and reach of a piece of music is notable information, and in the case of the second movement, its appearance in multiple films is relevant, because it is part of how people first heard it, how they feel about it, and its identity in our time, rather than the time it was composed in. The fact that it is featured in several films is relevant if you consider films, music, and film music to be relevant enough to be in Wikipedia, not to mention the usefulness of the information for people trying to figure out what song they remember hearing in a certain movie.
 * Elements of our universe are not only what they are themselves, but also how they are perceived by people. Of Hitler you can say that he was a man, or that he was a german president, or that he was a dictator. You might go on to say that he was portrayed by many people in film, with comedic, or dramatic, or documentary perspective. The same applies to this composition. It can be interpreted in different ways, and used to show a scene of violence, of a funeral, of bravery, and it has been used in those ways in certain films, which you would have to mention as examples.
 * Well, this is my POV at least. So is it trivia, or is it the use people other than the composer give to it?Jimifloydrix (talk) 23:26, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Seeing how the only 2 detractors did so 2 years ago and have not presented further arguments, and considering the following information on trivia by wikipedia
 * "This page in a nutshell: Sections with lists of miscellaneous information (such as "trivia" sections) should be avoided as an article develops. Such information is better presented in an organized way."

I would propose a small section on how it was used be added to the article, which would also add more information to this small article. This is not miscellaneous information, this is very specific, and as long as it is organized, it is acceptable. If one speaks of the invention of motors, one also includes what motors are used for, and how they have changed with time, one does not simply describe combustion and pistons.200.68.69.125 (talk) 18:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC) Furthermore, Allie, IMDb does not have all of the information always. I heard it in a 3 hour long Romanian independent film, and IMDb does not know that. I even tried searching for the tune in musipedia.org and it didn't recognize it. Finally my sister remembered she had played it in piano lessons 12 years ago, found the sheet, and that's how I found it, not thanks to the internet.200.68.69.125 (talk) 18:32, 18 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know who the editors you describe as "2 detractors" are, or even what they allegedly detract from. — Any entries of this kind need to be a) notable and b) sourced. The mere appearance of a piece of classical music in a work of popular culture doesn't warrant an entry – it has to be of some significance and must have attracted coverage in reliable sources. Your story makes a perfect case why such events should not be included here but in the article on that film/TV series/etc. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Allegretto played by Philadelphia Orchestra to commemorate a death
I've heard that the Philadelphia Orchestra plays the Allegretto to observe the death of any of its current or former members. Spikebrennan (talk) 16:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Imagine if all but the timpani player were killed in a bus crash; what would they do then? -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 18:06, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Never enough room
There is never enough room for all that you want to put in an edit summary. I just want to add, for the record, that, of course, I have heard the 2nd movement played by itself on the radio and on cable TVs classical music station. I just have never encountered a live concert where this occurred and I have been fortunate enough to hear it in several cities in the US and Europe. Having said that I am sure that it has been performed alone in a live venue I just haven't encountered it. Now if the net would just cough up the performance from the mid 70's by Seiji Ozawa and the Boston Symphony that was televised on PBS life would be sweet. MarnetteD | Talk 03:27, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Yaks
The source that has Beecham denigrating this work also points out he "never intended remarks such as these to be taken very seriously", so the quote is perhaps misleading without qualification. Remove it? Bitbut (talk) 04:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Many of Beecham's comments were "not to be taken seriously" : they were often said to provoke and were part of his character and his charm. It doesn't mean they were not said.  This one certainly was, though the Wikepedia quote is incorrect, or else the quoted source of David Bicknell's book is wrong, as the quotation referred to the fourth and final movement and NOT the third as stated in the article.  If one listens to the music (especially in Beecham's EMI recording from the 1950s) you can see exactly why he said what he did about that fourth movement - not what he is reported to have said about the third. 124.168.236.159 (talk) 05:28, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Some changes
I have (1) added Sir George Grove's comment on the final movement, whch is a classic; (2) modified the first of two identical quotes by von Weber on that ostinato at the end of the first movement and left the second (in Reception) intact); and changed the reference on the Beecham quote to the fourth movement. Opus131 (talk) 03:55, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

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 * Beethoven Symphony no 7, IV. Allegro Con Moto Ormandy.ogg

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Used in the movie Deception
Beethoven‘s Symphony No.7 in A, Op. 92:2.Allegretto was used in the 1946 movie Deception when Claude Rains was threatening Bette Davis about revealing information to her husband (Paul Henreid) after a concert rehearsal. Kate999999 (talk) 04:43, 19 May 2023 (UTC)