Talk:Symphony No. 7 (Shostakovich)

Picture
What's the picture got to do with the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.225.163.103 (talk) 06:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Did you read the article? --Yms 12:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Reference
"Leningrad" was recently used as part of episode 11 of "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi."

3 things to possibly add
Hello, the book Natasha's Dance by Orlando Figes says on page 493 (softcover edition)that 9 August 1942 was when Hitler had planned to celebrate the fall of Leningrad. The book doesn't say if that is why the premiere date was chosen, or if it was just coincidence.


 * I don't know, either. Thanks for providing the page number in Figis. I agree—it should be included.

Another thing: the liner notes to Kurt Masur's recording say that the third movement has a parody of "Da geh' ich zu Maxim" from The Merry Widow, and that Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District is quoted elsewhere in the movement.


 * This is already included in the article (see "Invasion" theme. (I also have the Masur recording, BTW.) MacDonald also mentions the Merry Widow parody in The New Shostakovich


 * Actually, in the section on the "Invasion" theme the particular movement isn't mentioned; the summary description of the symphony indicates the FIRST movement as containing something that seems to match the description of the "Invasion" theme. Are the notes for the Masur recording referring to something else, in the third movement?

I'm not familiar with The Merry Widow, with Shostakovich's operas, nor with this symphony. I would rather not listen to it either just to hear what is being talked about, as I don't like this symphony very much. Could someone who is more familiar with these works decide if this content is worth adding to the article. Thank you. -- Kyok o  16:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * For all his reporrted pretensions to Wagner, Hitler was actually a greater fan of operetta or light opera, with The Merry Widow being his personal favorite. Jonyungk (talk) 14:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I have listened to "Da geh' ich zu Maxim" by Franz Léhar and it is certainly not used in the "Invasion" theme.OrodesIII (talk) 03:46, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

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Testimony
While in one part of Testimony it is stated (supposedly by Shostakovich) that he wrote the theme before the German invasion, it also states (again, this time certainly by Shostakovich) that he, "...From the first days of the war, [he] sat down at the piano and started work." - Why should one part of Testimony subvert the other? Yagankiely (talk) 09:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Because Testimony is about cut-and-paste and smoke-and-mirrors, and was not composed the way Volkov said it was. I am firmly of Alex Ross's opinion that Testimony should not be regarded as even a secondary source; as long as Volkov refuses to show evidence that Shostakovich definitely dictated the whole book, it's impossible to authenticate Testimony, and I think that the stakes in the Shostakovich debates are too high to allow dubious evidence to be admitted. Testimony is highly dubious, and should be ruled out of court. Lexo (talk) 01:01, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Someone, somewhere, at some time, decided to do a hatchet job on the interpretation of this symphony to deflect its theme of the struggle of the people of Leningrad during the German siege to that of a cold war anti-Stalin propaganda. This mauling of the symphony's meaning is perpetuated in the main article which is beyond correction. OrodesIII (talk) 03:52, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Question
From the section on "Form": "The second movement, originally titled Memories is the symphony's shortest. Though its only heading other than its tempo indication, Shostakovich referred to it as both a scherzo and a lyric intermezzo."

Is the word "though" meant to be "through", or is there a word missing from the sentence? Tempo rubato (talk) 22:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Volkov sourcing
Almost this entire article seems to be derived from Volkov one way or another, who is a rather dubious source in many ways...can some other sources possible be cross-referenced here to add a little objectivity? For example the references to Stalin's supposed views or the Soviet people's views on the 7th can hardly be argued to be reliable fact if only derived from Volkov —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.41.34.19 (talk) 21:42, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Off-stage orchestra?
The German wikipadia mentions that half of the large brass section (4 fr.horns, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones) is actually an off-stage orchestra. I don't have the score here to verify this, but if true, shouldn't it be mentioned in the instrumentation section? I was wondering about the obvious disbalance in forces between woodwind and brass until I read the explanation on the German wikipedia... -- megA (talk) 13:36, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

None of the orchestra is used offstage: although the brass section is a large one, in performance it is generally larger still, as there are usually auxiliary players and frequently augmentations as well (e.g. doubling the tuba in all the performances I have attended). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barbirolli (talk • contribs) 13:46, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The "invasion" theme and Deutschland über alles
Added to this musical quotation was a prominent sequence of six descending notes in the seventh of the theme's 22 bars—a sequence which bears a passing resemblance to the third bar of Deutschland Über Alles.[1] Even if this is sourced, I'd call it, sorry, hogwash. A sequence of six (out of seven for the complete sequence) descending notes (a descending diatonic scale, which is hardly a unique invention), of which only five actually coincide with the mentioned part of the German anthem, plus the fact that the sequence starts with an upbeat, whereas the same sequence in the anthem starts with a downbeat, thus stressing completely different notes. Five notes from a diatonic scale cannot even be called a "passing resemblance". A better coincidence (six notes) could be found, (and conclusions drawn) with themes from Tchaikovsky's Third (the "Polish") Symphony (Polish struggle for liberty?) or Sibelius's Seventh (Finnish struggle for liberty?). I am sure, more "parallels" to other works could be found if one was desperate enough to make a point... At least the sentence should be changed to "MacDonald sees a passing resemblance with etc.". -- megA (talk) 15:45, 22 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps a "subtle hint"? Or some sort of wording like that, something that is very small and cautionary, not at all so definite as "a passing resemblance"? But I agree with you. I have been listening to this symphony a lot recently, since I like to choose one piece and listen to only it for a while. There isn't any German-ness to the piece whatsoever; Shostakovich would have had to denounce the piece, or, more likely, suffer some sort of reprimand. ABcEditor123 (talk) 03:59, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

The entire article is hogwash. OrodesIII (talk) 03:55, 17 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I think that's a bit far. A big big too far. ABcEditor123 (talk) 03:59, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Two orchestras?
See this comment about Shostakovich wanting the work to be played by 2 orchestras, which is why Gergiev used 2 orchestras for his first recording. Is this actually true? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:11, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Relation to Tchaikovsky's 5th
The article asserts that the climax of the "invasion theme" section quotes the descending 6 notes of the motto theme from Tchaik 5, in the relative minor key (motto theme is in E major, invasion in C-sharp minor). While there is some similarity between the two themes, this comparison based on keys is completely inaccurate: the section quoted in the article (immediately after the six bar woodwind and high strings tremolo) is not in C-sharp minor--it's in E-flat minor, which can be verified by checking the score. Additionally, the motto theme is not even in a major key to begin with--it's in E minor, at least in it's initial statement. This section of the article should probably be removed, as it has potential to cause confusion for those trying to study the score. It is mentioned in the Tchaik 5 article as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.245.233.95 (talk) 21:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

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Request for Protection?
The article has a good number of things wrong with it. Once it has been all edited and cleaned up, and once that Multiple Issues Template is removed, should a protection request for this article be made? I looked at the history of article, and it's rather startling. Below is the '1. Allegretto' section of the current article:

"The first movement is in modified sonata form and lasts for approximately half an hour;[ citation needed] there are two contrasting subjects, but no development, which is replaced by the "invasion" theme. It begins with a broad theme played by the strings in octaves, which is later echoed by the woodwinds. This is followed by a slower section played by flutes and strings, which segues into the "invasion" march: a 22-measure ostinato theme that resembles Ravel's Boléro. At the end of the twelfth statement of the theme, the brass present an inverted version of the theme, which is developed into a climax. After this is a slower, two-part section follows, with a bassoon solo introduced by a solo clarinet; then a soft recapitulation of the opening theme played by the strings. The movement's brief coda repeats the "invasion" theme, played by a solo trumpet and percussion.[ citation needed]"

And here is the same section, but from December 2022:

''"This is in modified sonata form and lasts for around half an hour; there are the usual two contrasting subjects, but no development section, this being replaced by the 'invasion' theme. It begins with a rousing, majestic theme played by all the strings and later echoed by the woodwinds. The theme rises in pitch through the first moments of the piece, with octave-long runs in the strings. This is followed by a slower, more tranquil section driven by flutes and lower strings, which peters out only to be replaced by the "invasion" march: a 22-bar, snare-drum-led ostinato that will pervade much of the movement. It resembles Ravel's Boléro, but the march is derived from "Da geh' ich zu Maxim" from Franz Lehár's The Merry Widow for its latter half[ better source needed] and a theme from Shostakovich's opera Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District, the work for which the composer suffered his first official denunciation in 1936. The prominent sequence of six descending notes in the seventh bar, from Lehár, has been said by the musicologist Ian MacDonald to bear a "passing resemblance to the third bar of [the "Deutschlandlied"].[ better source needed] The march is repeated twelve times, incrementally gaining in volume and orchestral mass. At the end of the twelfth repetition, the brass interject very loudly with a new, more frantic theme, announcing the arrival of the invaders.[ citation needed] The passage has rising and falling scales, one after the other. The snare drum beats at an increased rate, and several exchanges between the brass occur, with dramatic minor sweeping movements in the trombones and horns resembling danger sirens. This climaxes in a somewhat slower, but loud and chaotic passage driven by competing blaring brass and frantic strings. A slower, two-part section follows: a very prominent bassoon solo (introduced by a solo clarinet), then a soft, moving recapitulation of the first theme played by the strings. The short coda presents the invasion theme one last time, played by a solo trumpet and percussion."''

Clearly, someone has done a little too much editing. Yes, there are a lot of citation issues with the 2022 version as is plain to see. But, these can be fixed. I personally think that this article ought to be perfected, and then protected. But I would like to know what everyone else thinks. ABcEditor123 (talk) 03:53, 3 November 2023 (UTC)