Talk:Syracuse, New York/Archive 1

Naming
Question: named after Syracuse in Europe, or maybe a Iroquois reference?
 * Definitely the Syracuse in Italy. The village's previous name was already taken in New York and thus a new name had to be found. Because of several similarities, such as salt mining and a neighboring village called Salina, Syracuse was chosen. newkai 12:44, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Three mistakes on this page?
I recently came across an article ("How Syracuse became test of online credibility") in the September 15, 2004 edition of The Post-Standard (of Syracuse, NY) about the accuracy of Wikipedia, that claims:


 * "At Wikipedia, in spite of the game of Truth or Dare and the flurry of attention paid to Syracuse, there are still at least three mistakes on that page [Syracuse, NY], one of which has been there since June."

(The article is mostly devoted to a challenge allegedly posed by Techdirt.com to add intentional mistakes to the Syracuse, NY Wikipedia pages. Supposedly, all of the errors introduced by the challengers were found and fixed within hours &mdash; as far as I can tell, the above sentence at the very end of the article alluded to errors spotted by the article author that were unrelated to the challenge.)

As far as I can tell, there have been mostly minor changes since September 15, so I'm concerned that the alleged three errors (which, unfortunately, were not identified specifically) have not been corrected.

&mdash;Steven G. Johnson 18:03, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)


 * There is one error which is present in all User:Rambot generated city pages. The details of the poverty rate contains an improper description (but the correct numbers).  See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities for details.  --ChrisRuvolo 18:27, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Well it would be nice to know what these are... I am the major contributor to this page, and have removed vandalism twice. So there are supposedly two errors (three including Ram-bot)!? I don't think this justifies making this page "disputed." I'll have a detailed look at it this afternoon, but as far as I know its accurate. I keep a close eye on this page. newkai 18:49, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * OK, I just read the article from Sep. 15 by Brian Cubbison, assistant news editor of the P-S. He's obviously allowing this challenge to continue by not stating what the three errors are. I guess I'm going to have to ruin my night to night and check everything added since June. I've been the main contributor since June so that "mistake" was probably entered be myself. I will now also check facts that anyone adds, seeing that people are adding things left and right that are inaccurate. And, Steven, that Greece error was added during that time period, so it was not unrelated.


 * It's great that you're so conscientious. I'm not trying to cause trouble, I just wanted to make sure that an accusation of inaccuracy in a major print newspaper from Syracuse did not go unanswered. I think it's really discourteous of them not to have notified Wikipedia of the supposed errors (even if they waited until after publication to do so). &mdash;Steven G. Johnson 19:24, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)


 * All right, found one pretty big mistake, the historic population. The population peaked in 1970 with 221,000, not in 1920 as was stated before. I used census figures and fixed it up. Start of "faltering" of the industry date was listed as around 1990. That's not true either, I'd have to look at some job growth figures, but I'm pretty sure Syracuse maxed out around 1960-1970, along with the population. I'll see what I can find. newkai


 * And John Walsh wasn't born in Syracuse. He was born in Auburn. Not a big deal, but I changed it. The P-S would probably state in one of their articles that Michael Moore is from Flint. He's actually from a suburb as well. Anyway, I sincerely doubt this article has any large factual errors. If this disputed claim is left here much longer, there'll probably a "see, I told you so" article in the P-S soon. "Now even Wikipedians challenge the accuracy..." newkai 20:50, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I think the disputed notice can and should be removed as soon as the article is audited, as you are doing. But I don't think having it on for a short time reflects badly on Wikipedia &mdash; quite the opposite, it says that we take criticism seriously, and we either fix the problem immediately or we warn the user that an article is undergoing revision.  &mdash;Steven G. Johnson 22:35, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree that it doesn't reflect badly on Wikipedia, but the P-S obviously doesn't get Wikipedia... At least two of their writers don't. I'm quite saddened by the fact because I read it every morning and usually it's a great paper. Anyway, I checked the facts and it should be accurate now.


 * I'd say that John Walsh, being born in Auburn, a city in its own right, and in an entirely seperate county from Syracuse, being listed as born in Syracuse would be a major factual issue. --Darryl Hamlin 05:59, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

26 mistakes identified by the Post-Standard
Here's what Wikipedia got wrong

Corrections to Wikipedia's Syracuse entry, in order of appearance:

The U.S. Census revised Syracuse's population total to 146,435.

Syracuse was founded as a village in 1825.

Syracuse merged with Salina and was founded as a city in 1848.

The average annual rainfall, according to the National Weather Service, is 40.05 inches.

The average annual snowfall, according to the National Weather Service, is 111.9 inches.

The Erie Canal was completed (not created) in 1825.

Syracuse has grown by 2.5percent since 1970, but care must be taken in figuring the percentage. Different counties were included in the Syracuse metropolitan statistical area in different census years.

The Blizzard of 1993 broke seven records, not eight.

Math error: 30.46 percent of Syracuse households have one or more people under age 18.

Math error: 12.65 percent of Syracuse households are married couples living together.

Math error: 14.84 percent of Syracuse households have a female head of household with no husband present.

Math error: 48.58 percent of Syracuse households are non-families.

Seven of the top 10 - or eight of the top 11 - Syracuse employers are in the education or service industry.

The Syracuse Symphony Web site says it is the 43rd largest symphony orchestra in the United States.

OnTrack has 1,000 riders a month, not 60 a day.

The Web site for Syracuse Hancock Airport lists 18 airlines.

The Post-Standard has an additional edition on Sundays.

The Post-Standard has six bureau offices in Central New York.

WSTQ is Channel 14; it appears on channel 6 on cable.

Wolf Blitzer was born in Buffalo.

Maya Deren belongs in the "Attended Syracuse University" list.

Dave Mirra is a native of Chittenango.

Tim Green is from Liverpool, and the show "A Current Affair" is no longer on the air.

Parts of the movie "Slap Shot" were filmed in Syracuse.

Lotsofissues 01:41, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Nothing about being home to one of the worlds most polluted lakes? It mentions Onondaga lake, but nothing about how polluted it is. Or that our airport has more snowfall than any airport in America, including Alaska?


 * Thanks for listing them here. -newkai | talk | contribs 14:41, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * My name is Kai too!Lotsofissues 22:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Awesome! You know what, if you really think about it, there were only a handful of true mistakes. A lot of them are either updates (eg. OnTrack ridership. I think I actually took a newer figure than they did) or mistakes made by bots (the demographic thing). That the founding years were wrong was a pretty big one, and unfortunately no one caught Wolf Blitzer. -newkai | talk | contribs 23:25, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * "'I was born in the Syracuse area, and raised in Chittenango,' said Mirra from his current home in Greenville, N.C." — Syracuse New Times, December 25, 2002.
 * "David Michael Mirra was born in Central New York on April 4th, 1974 … Dave called Chittenango, NY his hometown while growing up." — Bio at Mirra's official site


 * The way these are worded suggests that Mirra was not a native of Chittenango, but of some other town in the Syracuse area. This could be a Post-Standard error. Anyone have a way of checking for sure? --Cam 02:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I bet he was born in a Syracuse hospital. It's probably where Chittenangans go for childbirth. -newkai | talk | contribs 04:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Syracuse was mentioned in The Twilight Zone but I could not find any episode information. Anyone remember?


 * Mirror Image is one, I don't know if there are any others. --Cam 06:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Also The Midnight Sun. A couple mention they are leaving NYC, heading to Syracuse and then onto Canada to avoid the heat wave.  It's nice to know when the oceans boil Syracuse still won't be too hot!

Famous Syracusans
I reworked the famous Syracusans section a bit. I moved Tim Green and Richard Gere to the metropolitan area, and Grace Jones out of S.U. and into the city (actually growing up the city seems more important here than attending the university).

Also, is Phil Markert famous outside Syracuse? I mean I used to like his singing of the school lunch menu in the morning (that was him, right?) but maybe he doesn't belong in a list with nationwide notables. --Cam 03:56, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed "Dina Jenks, champion freshwater trout angler" for whom I found no references on the Web (other than mirrors of this article). --Cam 04:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed "Guy Hart Jr." for whom no other Web references could be found. --Cam 04:49, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The Post-Standard isn't always right
I'm going through right now and referencing the text that I added but the Post-Standard claimed was incorrect. I reverted the OnTrack passenger claim and listed the source. The P-S claim of "1000 riders a month" is from an article they wrote earlier that year (2004). I should probably eventually call OnTrack myself. I believe their number is 1-800-FOR-TRAIN. -newkai | talk | contribs 05:16, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * This one is a classic. About the number of snowfall records that the Blizzard of 1993 had broken: I had written eight, and had referenced the article. They apparently didn't even check the reference, which if from their own staff reports in 2003!

A STORM FOR THE RECORDS - BLIZZARD OF 1993 BROUGHT 42.9 INCHES Post-Standard, The (Syracuse, NY) December 31, 2003 Author: Staff reports Estimated printed pages: 2

It started to snow on March 13, and by the time the Blizzard of '93 rolled back out of town, Syracuse had become Snow City, USA, and Central New York had piled up more snow than any place else in the nation.

The blizzard dumped 42.9 inches of wind-blown snow on the Syracuse area and broke eight weather records. Among them:

The most snowfall for one storm, surpassing the 42.3 inches of snow that fell during the Blizzard of '66.

The most snowfall in 24 hours - 35.6 inches from 10 a.m. Saturday to 10 a.m. Sunday - breaking the record of 27.2 inches that had stood since January 1925.

The most snowfall for March - 51.2 inches. The record was 41.4 inches, set in 1932.

Lowest low temperature on March 15, a chilling 1 degree at 5:30 a.m., edging the record of 6 degrees set in 1905.


 * And another Post-Standard mistake: The snowfall. I just found official NOAA data from 2004 that states 115.6 inches. Last winter we had way more than that, so that number definitely didn't go down to 111.whatever. -newkai | talk | contribs 05:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Ironic Post-Standard article
"WRITER TERMS SYRACUSE "BORING' IN WIKIPEDIA ENTRY Post-Standard, The (Syracuse, NY) January 5, 2006 Author: Staff writer Pam Greene Estimated printed pages: 1

An anonymous writer Wednesday trashed Syracuse on the online encyclopedia Wikipedia, the same day The Post-Standard published an article pointing out 25 errors in the Syracuse entry on Wikipedia.

"Syracuse is an American city in Central New York. It is known for being quite boring and bland. A city which boasts to have it all, but in reality has nothing," read Wikipedia's entry on the city Wednesday night. The entry also called the state fair "an otherwise overrated carnival." According to the Web site, an unnamed user added the negative comments at 12:09 p.m. EST. They were removed 11 minutes later by 23skidoo, a user from Alberta, Canada. The comments were re-posted, then removed again."

Lotsofissues 01:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, they are really lovin' this. -newkai | talk | contribs 07:13, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Contributions by user 24.92.206.126
Anonymous user 24.92.206.126 added the following comment to the section on Interstate 690:

"The title is ironic cuase the bums that live in the building are " Waiting for some Night Train" an alcoholic beverage prefered by african americans."

That doesn't seem to belong in Wikipedia.

I noticed that many of that user's contributions (mostly Jan 13) involve deleting stuff having to do with Destiny USA or the Carousel Center. User also added the "Penthouse model" label to Vanessa Williams. Some of the edits have been reverted, some haven't. What should be done? 128.230.13.84 00:32, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Contradictions
"the city had a total population of 146,435, and its metropolitan area had a population of 732,117"

How is this possible? Someone please rectify this. Fuzzform 19:42, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * For the 2000 Census, Syracuse was the center of a four-county metropolitan area with that population. -newkai | talk | contribs 04:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Metro Area???
This article lists that population of Syracuse is 146,435, and its metropolitan area population is 732,117. I think it's great that the greater metro area stat was included, but nowhere in this article does it actually lay out exactly what the area is comprised of (nor does it link to an article that does). There's a big descrepency when it comes to these sorts of things for any city, as to what qualifies as part of the city and not, and as to just what the correct stat is. References to the metro area are also littered throughout the article, making this more important--and more ambiguous--that it doesn't describe this. So I think the least that should be done is to atleast put the definition of the metro area of syracuse that was used for the stats used, and then to be consistent in the article. This way people know what the data specifically is quantifying. Alternatively someone could make a new article for the Syracuse Metro Area (Greater Syracuse). I've looked at many other city articles and there seems to be no standard, many times greater area pop stats are completely missing, let alone descriptions of what they comprise. --Thelastemperor 08:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I know nothing official about this but living here I would assume that the metro area includes DeWitt, Jamesville, Fayetteville, and Manlius at the least.

Response to Post-Standard Coverage
It took me awhile, but I finally did write a letter to the editor, which was published February 12:

Why is the paper picking on Wikipedia? [Title they made up]

To the Editor:

The Post-Standard last month published several articles mentioning Wikipedia, the free, open-source encyclopedia. In particular, your staff spent a day and a half checking the site's article about Syracuse for errors. You found 25 "errors" in the (at that time) approximately 5,500-word article. Wikipedians almost immediately went to work correcting these "mistakes."

I am a major contributor to the article in question. I contested many of the "mistakes" your staff found by inserting references to primary or well-respected secondary sources after the statements in question. For example, my average snowfall statistics were from the National Weather Service directly, and the number of records broken by the Blizzard of 1993 came from a Post-Standard staff report from Dec. 31, 2003. Yet these, among several others, were listed as "mistakes."

I feel that that the Post-Standard's journalism regarding Wikipedia has been very one-sided and unbalanced, especially since there is much to support the view opposite to that of the staff. Last December, the magazine Nature published a much more extensive and scientific study about the accuracy of Wikipedia, which found the editable encyclopedia nearly as accurate as Britannica.

As a university student, I would never use Wikipedia or Britannica as a direct source in a research paper. However, Wikipedia provides me with quick access to almost endless amounts of information. In addition, articles are becoming increasingly well-cited, allowing Wikipedia to be used as a quick stepping-stone to primary research.

Kai Brinker, Syracuse

Editor's note: We agree wholeheartedly with your last point about relying on more authoritative sources in serious research. Our staff picked apart the entry on Syracuse to prove that point.

To be fair, a strict analysis of any day's Post-Standard would yield a small percentage of disputable or inaccurate information. And just as we endeavor to correct our errors, you and other Wikipedians try to set the Web site straight.

Still, while Wikipedia's openness to contributors is its greatest strength, its openness to tampering remains its biggest flaw.

-newkai | talk | contribs 06:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Map
I noticed that a few edits back, someone removed the map and someone else replaced it. It should be noted that on some computers the red dot does not show up at all, so all readers see is a plain map of New York. I suspect that's what triggered the original edit. Is there some way to fix this? 4.236.69.103 21:54, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I replaced it, as I wasn't aware of that problem. Wouldn't this be a Wikipedia-wide problem? -newkai | talk | contribs 05:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I also do not see the dot on the map. Please take action about it. --TML1988 22:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

"Syracuse Hater" Attack
I really love (sarcastic) those sarcastic, anonymous users, who stop by and randomly place disgruntled comments after facts in this article, or add sourceless statements. There was a wonderful (sarcastic) attack by two IPs today, all over the article. -newkai | talk | contribs 02:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * *shrug* Hey, it's vandalism, it happens. Believe me, your wiki-stress will be much lower if you don't let yourself get bent out of shape by it. ;) Hbackman 05:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I don't let myself get bent out of shape. It just seems to happen to this article very often! I was just noting that. -newkai | talk | contribs 02:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)