Talk:Syria/Archive 4

The Syrian government
At this point in Syria is the current government and the Official emblem and flag of the United Nations and which are recognized as long as it is not necessary to change or anything! And current president Bashar al-Assad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Nations http://www.un.int/syria/ https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sy.html95.133.223.95 (talk) 21:36, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

I Agree with you, The Flag and Emblem , also the national theme must be included , What now ? , The national theme doen't represent Syria ? , Is it put by Ba'ath ? 178.61.35.103 (talk) 13:14, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * 95.133.223.95, I obviously agree with you (especially with the part when you stress that President al-Assad's government is recognized by the UN, which continue to display the flag and the coat of arms of the legitimate Syrian government). But, you should improve your understanding and working knowledge of English language before you start editing here, this is English Wikipedia after all. Cheers! --Sundostund (talk) 14:52, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Some editors went beyond limits, removed everything related with the legitimate government in Syria which is still in POWER and RECOGNIZED by the supreme global international organization; the UN. Nobody cares about the opposition representation at the Arab League. As long as the Baath government controls over Syria and the two stars flag is still rising over the headquarters of the UN and the Syrian embassies abroad, the 1958 Union flag should be maintained (for the time being -at least- the 1932 French-mandate flag should not be included in the article as a flag of the current Syrian state.--Preacher lad (talk) 04:35, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said above, I completely agree. -- Director  ( talk )  05:47, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly, Preacher lad! --Sundostund (talk) 12:32, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly! - news report yesterday -"Meanwhile, Russia vowed to oppose an expected push by the Syrian opposition to take over Syria's seat at the UN.

It criticised the Arab League for giving Syria's seat to the opposition at a league summit." I suppose everything in life has its comic parallel, so its only fitting that even here we should find comedic parodic versions of a Putin-China veto and the Russophiles who like to see the POWERful lock up people for miming in a church - I think preacher lads rather speechified "the legitimate government in Syria which is still in POWER and RECOGNIZED by the supreme global international organization; the UN. Nobody cares about the opposition representation at the Arab League. As long as the Baath government controls over Syria and the two stars flag is still rising over the headquarters of the UN and the Syrian embassies abroad," - is a bit pov possibly?, - does the Assad regime control over all Syria defacto? im sure the news last night showed areas near the Turkish border in Kurd, and FSA control. But no, Preacher lad wouldnt be guilty of the least hyperbole.maybe the news you see is controlled?censored? preacher lad and direktoo know everything. or do they just talk like they do.- - still, its good to see how factions argue and think - even in parody versions - imagine what the real things are like. Sayerslle (talk) 13:55, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Sayerslle, I'm sorry to inform you, but some people (like myself) don't have a habit to let CNN and BBC to think instead of their brain. Also, there are many people (like myself) who don't support "liberal democracy", "multi-party system", "market economy" etc and I certainly don't want to see another country, Syria, occupied by those who cherish those "values". We had many opportunities (especially in Iraq in 2003 and in Libya in 2011) so far to see how it looks when US/NATO "liberate" a country from an "evil dictator" and his "murderous regime", so I (and many more people) choose to stick with Russia and China. --Sundostund (talk) 19:48, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * just trying to be neutral mate. i honestly believe de facto/de jure issues etc are divided. i dont see how much clearer you can make your pov issues and what your motivation is here. Sayerslle (talk) 19:53, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Here's the thing--an encyclopedic article may report, if that is necessary, relevant, supported, etc. about a de facto situation; after all, we seem to think that we need to update constantly. But stuff like an infobox and the main information of a lead, including statements about official heads of state and such, need to deal with the de jure situation, especially if such a situation is still recognized by major bodies, the UN being the majorest. Whether the situation in the real world as such is good or bad is clearly up to some dispute, but that's not the issue here. Eventually one of the two sides (if the calculus is that easy) will win out, and at that point the article will reflect that. But this is not the place to argue for the legitimacy of one side over the other, and this is not the place to refer to one side as terrorists and/or the other as oppressive tyrants. The article, if it uses such words at all, must do so in a way that identifies that terminology as used by reliable and notable sources, to make it clear that it's not us (or you) editors who are using it and thus giving their opinion. I'm not sure if there is a problem with the current dispute, but we need you all to realize that you need to work together to keep the article within policy and guidelines. If you don't, there will be edit wars and blocks, and no one wants that, I hope. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 03:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I removed the opposition box. The SNC has no legitimacy and is not a unified, functioning government, and the Arab League seat cannot be compared to a UN representation at all. Please discuss before making changes. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 06:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly, Tourbillon! If terrorists want legitimacy, they must take the UN seat! Very simple, isn't it? But, I bet it will be very hard for them to do! --Sundostund (talk) 12:03, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * unless wikipedia has to be a parodic mirror of Russian/east European  views of the world I think the 'no legitimacy' statement is not in RS. the arab eague, france, Britain, the U.S. administration see things different to Putin and epigones - the de facto situation has changed too - parts of northern Syria for example are in KUrdish and FSA control etc - your pov is interfering with the need for wp to be neutral imo Sayerslle (talk) 12:34, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There can be no real legitimacy without the seat in the UN. There's no other recognition, by any country or international organization, which can replace that kind of legitimacy. As for the situation in northern Syria, etc - that's not an argument, the war is in progress. One side now controls some parts of Syria, but easily can lost that control. --Sundostund (talk) 14:46, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Does anyone realise that there is an RfC for the infobox dispute? I'm afraid we are not going to have a proper consensus unless we make use of the RfC. Also, calling either side terrorists or whatever isn't likely to make your case look professional. Thanks. --Marianian(talk) 13:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Dear Marianian, my parents told me long time ago to always call everything by its real name. If someone gets offended, well, truth can hurt, doesn't it? --Sundostund (talk) 14:49, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not the place to argue about which government is better as per WP:NPOV. --Marianian(talk) 00:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Presentation of the Syrian country infobox
How should Syria's country infobox be presented, considering an ongoing civil war and the current state of international recognition for the two competing sides? Marianian(talk) 06:24, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Survey

 * Sign within preferred options below with --~ . It is like a yes/no vote but with multiple options.

Retain "red-white-black" symbols?
A non-neutral situation would be to replace the functioning government of Assad with this obviously dysfunctional political organisation that holds no authority over rebel territories in Syria. Certain users can rant about Putinist conspiracies, but it won't change the fact that the opposition holds no large cities in their entirety and is basically an army without a government. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 14:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC) Sayerslle (talk) 16:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My arguments have been explained above:
 * The government still retains its seat at the United Nations;
 * The SNC is not functioning as a government as it has no designated capital, ministers or institutions;
 * The Free Syrian Army is the institution that controls rebel-held areas; the SNC is fractured and has little to no control over these terriories;
 * Despite sources claiming recognition of the SNC by more than 100 countries, there are no individual statements by country; these are measured simply through the recognition by organisations in which these countries participate;
 * The SNC is recognised as a "legitimate representative of the Syrian people, not a legitimate government.
 * -Is the regime still functioning over all syria btw -it hasnt become compromised anywhere - but again RS say different, - if who is at the U.N is the only consideration I didnt know that. "We'll oppose it very strongly," Churkin said in response to a question about a likely Syrian opposition move in New York to follow its success in gaining Arab League recognition." - thats just what the representative  said, pointing things like that out are not 'rants' - its kind of like pointing outthat Russia and east eurpopeans are more pro the Assad regime than others and this affects what they say and  like to insist see appearing everywhere.  Sayerslle (talk) 16:22, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Please use : before your comment to move it rightwards. Removing the current flag, coat of arms and government from the infobox in favour of a loose and powerless political body (and this is not my statement) would represent a biased act itself. It would mean the community here is not neutral and is expressing support for a side in the conflict - a side not universally recognised. Retaining the current symbols does not mean the same, since the regime is a functioning political body fighting against the Free Syrian Army, which is not a government. While the FSA undoubtedly controls some large areas, it is weakly affiliated with the SNC. As far as I've noticed, it is exactly the SNC - and not the FSA - that some users here are trying to give credit to.


 * Finally, you mentioned that the de jure situation stands opposite to the de facto one, which is false. The de facto situation is against the proposal as well. Of the 10 largest Syrian cities, the opposition has full control of only one (ar-Raqqah). The regime is in firm or near-firm control of six (Damascus, Hama, Homs, Tartus, Latakia, Hasakah). Even the majority of the smaller towns in the northeast are controlled not by the FSA/Nusra, but by the Kurdish PYD, not part of opposition government.


 * The final generalisation about "east europeans" is one that you could keep to yourself. I am certain that you wouldn't feel pleasant if I said that Americans are generally pro-Contras and pro-Wahhabis, and if you would like to comment on other users, this is not the place. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 16:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Removing the current flag, coat of arms and government from the infobox in favour of a loose and powerless political body " - is not what anyone did is it. what is the bloody point if you invent stuff to oppose. the use of the word 'rant' to caricature the words of others is one that you could keep to yourself Sayerslle (talk) 17:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Tourbillon The Opposition now controls Idlib City and has a negotiation team in Geneva,Opposition controls an entire governorate,half of aleppo city,plus the kurds control huge parts of hasakah and qamishli,so the syrian independence flag and kurdish flag must be included in the article.Alhanuty (talk) 14:21, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Use "neutral" infobox?
To avoid conflict no flags in the info box would be most neutral. I prefer the solution with two info-boxes under politics. Renetus (talk) 15:01, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

 * My personal opinion is that the state of international recognition for the two competing sides is too close to call, and therefore I felt that a neutral country infobox would be an appropriate solution (see Talk:Syria for my original proposal). Noting the importance of WP:NPOV, I could not see how a neutral infobox could imply that Wikpedia supported any of the competing sides. Sadly, this has not resolved the dispute and therefore I have to blow the whistle and ask for further opinion and a consensus before it gets out of hand - I could not find the right RfC that would be appropriate for this (This RFC was about Israel's role, and not international recognition). --Marianian(talk) 06:24, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep the infobox of the legitimate power INSIDE Syria not out of the borders of Syria. Keep infos of the sovereign Syrian government of Bashar al-Assad and not the externally-appointed one of the opposition which is not in power yet. The representation at the Arab League does not make any sense, as the Syrian flag of Red-White-Black with two green stars is still rising at the UN headquarters.--Preacher lad (talk) 08:05, 28 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The three stars flag does represent only some oppositionists outside Syria. That flag is not even used by many opposition groups inside Syria. At the end, The two stars flag is still the de-facto and the de-jure flag both in Syria and the United Nations.--Preacher lad (talk) 08:34, 28 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I support the first option, to retain "red-white-black" symbols, and I totally agree with Preacher lad's words. Furthermore, I think there's no valid reason to remove the infos of the Syrian government of President al-Assad and to replace them with symbols of externally-supported terrorists and their so-called "interim government". Individual support and recognition, which some countries and organizations give to those terrorists, certainly can't be a reason to replace infobox about Syria here and other data elsewhere. Most countries, especially the largest ones, like Russia, China, India, Brazil etc continue to recognize President al-Assad's government. Its especially important to underline that the UN still recognize the legitimate Syrian government, and display its symbols at its headquarters. --Sundostund (talk) 12:19, 28 March 2013 (UTC)


 * As per my two or three essays above - retain the legal, UN-flown flag of Syria with two stars. International recognition is a red herring, we do not make "calls" like that on Wiki. There is no basis whatsoever for removing the legal insignia while its representative of Syria by international law. Gentlemen, the war is very much in full swing - lets curb our enthusiasm. -- Director  ( talk )  12:24, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * are you a lawyer? in december 2012 the U>s recognised the opposition to a degree did it not? i looked up international law on merriam webseter - "The term was coined by the English philosopher Jeremy Bentham. Important elements of international law include sovereignty, recognition (which allows a country to honour the claims of another), consent (which allows for modifications in international agreements to fit the customs of a country), freedom of the high seas" - if recognition is important to merriem webster why is it a red herring to you-why are you ignoring the U.S ,arab league, france, Britain ? - i thought you studied medicine or summat, not law anyhow. this is a load of pov bluster and bs on your part i reckon. let alone the de facto situation. this is like the green flag on the libya page which stayed long after reality had made a moot point what was de facto/de jure realities. like the gadaffi-ites, the assad ists want to insist that nothing has changed. in your minds maybe not. but things have changed in reality.Sayerslle (talk) 14:37, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Your edit is opposed and has no consensus . I am not interested in your original research, your POV is opposed so please revert it until you have consensus . These sort of matters are essentially ruled by the position of the community alone and thus far all I'm seeing is opposition. The de iure situation is Assad is king, that's what international law has to say - just ask the freaking UN. The de facto situation is there's a war on. When the UN changes its position, or the rebels take over the vast majority of Syria, then we might have something to discuss. Right now, there is no cause whatsoever to scrap the Syrian flag. And never you mind what I study. -- Director  ( talk )  17:56, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly, DIREKTOR! I totally agree with: When the UN changes its position, or the rebels take over the vast majority of Syria, then we might have something to discuss. And, I especially agree with: The de iure situation is Assad is king, etc :) --Sundostund (talk) 23:44, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I should add a few charts to explain why I am not confident that the status quo should remain. It is my intention only to ensure that the infobox keeps up with the current situation with solid facts - in the case of Libya in 2011, the NTC only got its UN seat a month after the fall of Tripoli and about a month before the demise of Gaddafi. . --Marianian(talk) 18:21, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * You continue to ignore the points above. The UN seat is probably the least significant argument of those so far presented. The most significant argument is that the SNC is not a functioning government. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 21:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * and do you continue to ignore that it is not a functioning assad rgeime government in swathes of the country. Sayerslle (talk) 23:45, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * May I reiterate that I considered the current status of UN membership, but the state of recognition by individual nations contradicts this. It is just that they have not called for a vote over the credentials, yet. They usually do this in September-ish, when the General Assembly convenes. --Marianian(talk) 00:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You just basically said that your assumptions on what might happen at a certain point in time should be regarded as an argument to include a double infobox. Ever read WP:CRYSTAL ? Are you aware that the "rebel government" practically has almost no authority over rebel-held territories ? What you are promoting here is the idea that a powerless political coalition should be represented on an equal footing with a fully-fledged regime that has obviously dug in itself deep and has a long way to go before falling. This is just wishful thinking. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 07:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I am not even predicting the future - the state today is that there is neither side is fully recognised, even though Assad has the UN seat and the SNC has the Arab League seat. It should be noted that as part of a compromise I would support the Assad infobox going first because it still has the UN seat but I personally cannot see why it should be on the main infobox because of the state of recognition by individual nations. I am not supporting either side at all, but I am only considering the extremely raw facts, that there are lots of countries that accept the SNC as a legitimate government, solely or jointly, as well as countries that accept Assad's government as such, solely or jointly. Therefore my recommendation would be a neutral lead infobox, followed by Assad then the SNC in Government and Politics section, like what happened with Libya in 2011. I've tried my best to forge a compromise and bring some stability, but I am very disappointed that my attempt at settling the dispute has changed little other than back-and-forth editing of the infoboxes. --Marianian(talk) 22:17, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yet you're still ignoring another extremely raw fact - that the SNC continues to be simply an internationally recognised group, not a government. You can't just compare this to Libya, because back then the TNC had a capital (Benghazi) and a streamlined political and military organisation. The SNC is the exact opposite. It has no capital, is yet to form an administrative structure, and does not control rebel-held areas in Syria:
 * "...Syria's main opposition coalition is holding talks to form an interim government..." (mid-March 2013);
 * "...the new government faces huge challenges, starting with its ability to gain recognition from rebel factions on the ground." (mid-March 2013)
 * "...a US-based Islamist, was elected by the opposition to be prime minister of an alternative administration that could govern rebel-held areas from inside Syria." (late March 2013)
 * This is what comes after a quick news search about a Syrian opposition government. Sure, it's recognised as a legitimate representative by over 100 countries (of which we never saw a full list), but it's not recognised by the Syrian rebels and has no authority over rebel-held areas. Any infobox that involves the SNC is destined to be biased, non-neutral and an exaggeration of what the SNC is. Your attempt at a compromise is simply this - to equalise a functioning regime and a dysfunctional political coalition. That's simply a non-neutral proposal. The most adequate solution is to retain regime symbols and cabinet in the infobox. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 07:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * has obviously dug in itself deep - in parts of the country  - not everywhere - north and eastern areas etc - the border with Turkey for eg- do you ever watch the news? read [papers? the idea that the opposition is just a monstrosity, which you  argue, is a regime pov, not the opinion of those that have recognised its legitimacy etc etc.the reason for the latest revert i can hardly make out at all - is it understandable. the user doesnt have an opposition flag on his page so maybe thats all there is to understand. the regime has obviously dug itself in very deep in some areas though - you are certainly 100% correct there. well done. Sayerslle (talk) 11:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Until and unless the current government has been defeated, I would consider it the government. If the rebels were to sever part of the country, establish a government and obtain recognition, then I would treat it as two countries. To use an earlier example, we date the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia from the date Lon Nol's forces were defeated in the capital, even though the Khmer Rouge had long controlled many parts of the country. TFD (talk) 03:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Just so.
 * This war could even conceivably last for decades at a lower intensity. It doesn't appear likely Assad will ever be able to shift the rebels from their strongholds next to the Turkish border, but neither can the rebels decisively defeat Assad, it seems, as long as he controls the mainstay of the army... Like I keep saying - the war is still very much on. -- Director  ( talk )  10:43, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Having taken a break and thought about this again I am willing to declare no consensus and stick with the current infobox, but review again if the opposition takes all of Aleppo and/or Damascus, or gain UN credentials. Would this, or siimlar, be agreeable? Thanks. --Marianian(talk) 23:45, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Just asking but can't Russia block that move unilaterally at the U.N ? they love Assad -  , they are often spoken of in RS as . along with  hierocrat Iran , Assads greatest supporters.  Sayerslle (talk) 23:58, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In the GA, the change of UN credentials for Libya were done by a majority vote, invulnerable to veto unlike the SC. --Marianian(talk) 01:38, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * oh, thanks. I read an article where some Russian apparatchik called churkin said -"You do not simply seat opposition groups who have gone through no proper process of legitimization," he said - and wondered if they could block anything at all they didnt like at the U.N. Sayerslle (talk) 15:12, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds fair to do it when/if Damascus falls and if the SNC gets recognised by the Free Syrian Army as its government. As I pointed out earlier, there's quite a rift between the two. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 13:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

This page is going to be the worst
Hello, may peace be upon all, I would like to start with greeting my struggling country throughout the history and then I would like to tell you guys if we as editors will keep contributing and reversing, is going to be a long-term conflict, and will lead to more apartheid, we are all brothers, and we are all Syrians and adore this country, and this is a free article which all people have the right to edit and contribute on this, so I invite you all to search for a solution solving the boxes and the information away from our opinions, we have a lot of amazing places to share in this encyclopedia, and a lot more places and information to write about, and show all people who wants to know about Syria the best of it, Not the worst, and Thanks so much seeking for your acceding. Mustafa Otbah ( talk  •  contribs ) 4 April 2013 17:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have done all within my power to try to reach a balance between the two conflicting sides: using just raw facts regarding recognition by individual countries I proposed a neutral lead infobox with the governments listed in Politics and Government section (Assad first due to the UN seat, then SNC). I am not siding with any side because that goes against the ethos of Wikipedia (the New World Order doesn't even exist even though every country has its own issues): I thought that a neutral infobox solution would be the best compromise for the current situation. If it changes then we would review it in a due course. --Marianian(talk) 22:26, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you marianian Alhanuty (talk) 00:28, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that is good to try to regain the balance to the page, but I think we can do it with sections, I mean instead of two boxes, why not make a section for the opposition, and they will write down what ever they want about true things happened in Arab League i.e. and so we can solve it, and istead of three country boxes, and the flag of Syria now doesn't represent Assad's government, it represents Syria now, so I think it's better to let the new flag with that section, and let only one box, and section talking about the new government, and remove the pictures that show the hopeless in Syria, and show pictures about our civilization and our reality, I think there are a lot about that, so do you agree ?, P.S. I'm Neutral with this conflict, and I just want to improve this article. and thanks. Mustafa Otbah  ( talk  •  contribs ) 05:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * No. "Seeking the middle ground" is a method dependent entirely on the positions of the debating parties - not on the sources/facts on the ground. It sounds pretty, but its dead wrong. For example, if one were to demand that all mention of the Syrian National Coalition be stricken from this article, one could present the current state of affairs as the "middle ground". That's a wrong way to think about solving factual disputes. And indeed, this a typical case where the "middle ground" or "compromise" leads to bias and POV. The Assad government is the legal government of Syria, and there is no state entity representing the rebels (the SNC does not control any territory in Syria, and has no organized cabinet). Of the 193 members of the UN 90% recognize Assad's government as the government of Syria, and of the remaining 10%, many are participants in this conflict. Assad still controls well over 50% of the territory of Syria as well - the war is still very much on. The rebels, as yet, can only be viewed as rebels - and this project cannot take sides and introduce political bias by giving them representation indicative of official recognition. I also point to the many other valid arguments brought forth in the thread above.


 * I have restored the status quo, and will report further pro-rebel political POV-pushing introducing controversial changes without consensus and against strong talkpage opposition. Probably on AE or ANI. -- Director  ( talk )  09:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 'ive had it with this sayerslle' is a kind of thuggish way of writing an edit summary - what about CIVIL? - the dismissal of all views not adhering to your own - and did you express sympthy for a view that it was  not freedom fighters but all Al Qaeda? - - is stifling.  it is highly disagreable to discuss anything with you. Sayerslle (talk) 11:49, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No what's "thuggish" is POV-pushing and edit-warring. Its you, not I, who's dismissing all the folks on the talkpage and RfC discussing this issue. You instigated this edit war, are pushing disputed edits against consensus, and are hardly even participating on the talkpage. Obviously you will get reported (unless you stop promptly), if not by me then someone else who find the time. No offense, but the rest of your post is unintelligible to me I'm afraid. I have no idea what you're talking about. -- Director  ( talk )  12:10, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * so you decide what soundss thuggish now as well as everything else ? - it sounded thuggish, I'm telling you, it was a thuggish way to express yourself -the rest of my post was about your aside in this comment on the civil war page -

 Pro Al Qaeda terrorists article, labeling them as freedom fighters  If you're looking for non biased information, look the other way — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.180.117.168 (talk) 02:59, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

thats kind of pov-ish, no?- you can report me wherever you like, you already have havent you. Sayerslle (talk) 12:32, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Emotions and personal convictions of what's just or fair and who's a "terrorist" or a "freedom fighter" should be set aside when editing Wikipedia. Regardless of whose side you're on (or if you oppose both), the official government in Syria is that of the Syrian Arab Republic under President Bashar al-Assad. If or when the various rebel factions overthrow Assad's government, form an actual government of their own on the ground, gain recognition as sovereigns by the UN, etc. then we could discuss changes in the infobox. Until then, we must make it clear in the article that the Assad government is still in power, although large parts of Syria are in the hands of different factions of anti-government rebels or are being contested by the opposing parties. The opposition council and the recognition it has received should also be mentioned, but the infobox should largely remain the way it currently is for the time being. --Al Ameer son (talk) 13:08, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

@Sayerslle. When I said "I tend to agree" I was obviously referring to "If you're looking for non-biased information, look the other way". Is that clear to you? As for the rest, if you do want me to report you, all you have to do is continue with the edit-war you instigated. -- Director  ( talk )  14:12, 5 April 2013 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Libya&oldid=442707693   Alhanuty (talk) 22:58, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is WHAT WAS DONE IN THE LIBYAN BETWEEN GADDAFI AND THE REBEL,AND NOTICE THE NTC DIDN'T GOT LIBYA CHAIR IN THE UN UNTIL SEPT 2011 AFTER THE CAPITAL FELL
 * So one mistake should cause another? I could not care less what was done on Libya: WP:OTHERSTUFF. -- Director  ( talk )  06:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

what other stuff and what mistakes,this what done in libya when there was the slow rebel advance, and i think the same should be done in this article Alhanuty (talk) 15:08, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

We have now ended the case, this is what must happen , you are not the leader of us to say what should be done in the articles , Firstly : The name of the country , Syrian Arab republic must be wrote , second , the national anthem also must e wrote , now for the tittle of flag and coat of arms , i just want to tell , what is the official flag and coat that are used in un passport and syria ? , red and the gold eagle ? , right ? , so you stay away from vandilism the article, and do a good edits .GhiathArodaki (talk) 18:40, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * There's nothing really to be discussed, it was ultimately agreed that it is far too early to remove the flag and coat of arms of the current government from the box. Just scroll up and read. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 06:16, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Untitled
Permanent emotionele contact, support and condolences to all the Arab nation worldwide with sirische brother and sisters. And in all the border where Arabe is present. Russia and China, it maybe should allow a few UN soldiers for peace in Syria sacrifice. So, we will all be more secure fühllen, wherever these brother and sisters present.Maniken-pis (talk) 12:27, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Major edit proposal
Due to a possible massive impact on the layout I have decided to ask for consensus over my proposal to demote references to the government from the lead country infobox into separate country infoboxes in the Politics and government. The mockups can be seen at User:Marianian/Syria Sandbox. I anticipate that a fair use rationale will be required to include the Coalition's logo. --Marianian(talk) 21:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

 I completely agree with your proposal --Wiki erudito (talk) 11:33, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

 Strong oppose, as there is no sound opposition government yet, and the current one remains in power in its nominal capital city. The opposition remains fractured, and the outcome of the war is still nowhere in sight. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 10:22, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

✅ We should definitely represent these somewhere, and this seems the most unbiased way to document them all.


 * Bias is to present a fragmented paramilitary force capped by non-elected political leaders with no institutions as "government", just because certain geopolitical actors have made a protocol statement. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 18:09, 9 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I think Wikipedia needs to recognize governments that aren't necessarily in the UN. Plus, these are extraordinarily prominent parts of Syria, as far as I cna tell, and are worth noting. &mdash; Supuhstar * &mdash; 18:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Worth noting, yes. Contesting the official state apparatus because of something that isn't even a government ? Not quite. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 00:01, 11 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Where, then, would you note them completely? &mdash; Supuhstar * &mdash; 20:03, 11 January 2013 (UTC)


 * In the Politics section; the most adequate solution would be to state in two paragraphs that the central authority in power is disputed by the political wing of the rebel force. List known figures, structure and capital (if any), areas of control, supporters (domestic and international) of this quasi-government and link to appropriate articles. Probably the most neutral solution IMO, the rebel political body is far too disorganised to merit anything more than this. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 22:34, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Even though they recognise the rebel faction as the legitimate representatives of the Syrian people, nearly all countries that oppose Assad still consider his government the one that rules Syria. One example is that despite having a office in Brussels, the rebels may not call this an "embassy" since this title is reserved to the Official pro-Assad representative.--  R a f y  talk 21:12, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

 I completely agree with you 3bdulelah (talk) 18:50, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I take note that the Politics and government section looks biased towards the People's Council as it does not acknowledge the Syrian National Coalition yet. Paragraphs about the SNC may have to be added first - I am not an expert on Syria, but definitely someone that can try to settle the dispute over the presentation of the government at times like this. --Marianian(talk) 02:14, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

✅ The statements of users like Tourbillion are just plain false. The NTC is elected, and is a functioning government in exile. And the point about being elected is highly ironic; Assad was not 'elected' in a manner in which anyone, in any part or region of the world, would consider fair, democratic or legitimate, so this asspect is obviously not a real concern for these editors. With the end game apparently nearing in Damascus, it's high time this info box edit was done as it was previously done on the Arabic wiki.

To the user above: Exactly who were these politicians within the national coalition elected by? Did any Syrians choose these representatives? I do not believe they were, please broaden your perspective on the matter beyond your own personal opinions and beliefs.
 * The SNC is made up only of Syrians, so yes Syrians elected them. And personal views have nothing to do with this issue. The actions of soverign states do however, some of who now recognize the SNC over the dictatorship of Assad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.253.93 (talk) 18:55, 14 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The fact still stands that the Syrian majority had no say in who was the leader of this coalition, there is no true representative of the Syrian people within this exiled group, one cannot assume that the Syrians would just accept al-Khatib or whoever, as it's leader. It's like saying members of the republican party voted in who they would like to represent them, btw, the SNC is now obsolete, NATO has shifted it's support to the National Coalition.
 * SNC is an abbreviation for Syrian National Council. And they aren't just backed by NATO (Brazil and India are not in NATO). Also please don't skew consensus by adding extra 'disagree' markers.
 * You really don't think i knew what the acronym stood for? The SNC is no longer the primary group within the opposition, many of it's members merged with the National Coalition. I will also throw up a marker when i find it is necessary, as was with my latter edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.96.205 (talk) 02:29, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

SNC stands for both the former Syrian National Council AND Syrian National Coalition. It's the same acroynm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.127.134 (talk) 19:53, 17 February 2013 (UTC) ✅: Considering the scale of international recognition for quite sometime I shall implement the proposal. Hopefully this should settle the dispute for the short-term. --Marianian(talk) 00:13, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I take note that the leading infobox is now subject of a possible edit dispute. I am inclined to add my personal recommendation that if the Infobox is to be neutralised then the Politics and Government section must have infoboxes of rival governments (see User:Marianian/Syria Sandbox for mockups. Thanks. --Marianian(talk) 00:08, 20 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I strongly recommend this implementation to be reverted. The rebel entity is not even a quasi-government, and its recognition is actually very limited. This is not the Libyan case, where two clearly distinguished governments existed, and I see no reason to implement the same practice here. Tourbillon, not logged in. 94.26.48.133 (talk) 18:57, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * with this as well, and reverted to the status quo as I can see no real consensus (5 for, 4 against), especially now. This isn't really about international recognition at all - both sides enjoy it aplenty, that's just a red herring. The SNC government is completely illegal according to international law. The government of Syria is, well - the government of Syria. The legal status quo must be maintained at least until Assad's government is de facto dissolved. Gentlemen, there's a war very much on - lets curb our enthusiasm. --  Director  ( talk )  10:28, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * as well. The opposition 'government' has no control on the ground, does not operate from within Syria and cannot even agree among itself as to who its leading members are. 12 members of the SNC resigned last week over Hitto's election to PM and even Khatib tried to resign before being convinced to stay. The opposition being given the Arab League seat means very little as that event occurred in Qatar, a country which is not exactly unbiased in the conflict. There are few to no real trappings of government amongst the opposition and it makes no sense to suddenly act as if they have jurisdiction over large swathes of Syria. 68.149.163.72 (talk) 20:38, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * . The government a) is in control of the capital city and the organs of state, b) has been making steady advances against the rebels as of late, and c) is recognised by the UN as remaining the Syrian government. The various opposition groups are not a government but a collection of military groups with no effective central authority. Qwertyuiop1994 (talk) 07:24, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Petroleum output
''Syria has produced heavy-grade oil from fields located in the northeast since the late 1960s. In the early 1980s, light-grade, low-sulphur oil was discovered near Deir ez-Zor in eastern Syria. Syria's rate of oil production has decreased dramatically from a peak close to 600,000 barrels per day (95,000 m3/d) (bpd) in 1995 down to less than 140,000 bbl/d (22,000 m3/d) in 2012.[99]''

In the article. This is no decline due to depletion of the oil fields, its because of the civil war which now already lasts over 2 years and 2 months. I think this Information should be added at least in a small and short sentence?! Syria will be able to produce again over 400.000 barrel easy after the war, with modern technology and in case of offshore discoveries maybe more. Greetings Kilon22 (talk) 21:26, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

HDI needs to be updated
The arrow next to the HDI indicates it's decreasing.. The value is also old, from 2011. Syria's HDI has increased since.. this can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.112.185.83 (talk) 00:03, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Unsatisfactory outcome from recent RFC
I do not feel satisfied that, despite a consensus being reached to retain the status quo for now, the recent RFC appears to have resolved the infobox issue fully (consensus does not depend on a straightforward vote). Firstly, I can inform you that there have been attempts by anonymous IP addresses to vandalise my user pages, which is not acceptable. Secondly, editors have been constantly reverting between the status quo and neutral options. While I make it clear that I do not endorse any government, any further incidents like this will result in this being escalated to an incident report. --Marianian(talk) 07:39, 26 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Obviously some users don't care about the discussions here at all. I advise User:Alhanuty to cease changing the infobox claiming "consensus", because current consensus is to keep the Syrian Arab Republic symbols. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 06:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Permanent emotionele contact, support and condolences to all the Arab nation worldwide with sirische brother and sisters. And in all the border where Arabe is present. Russia and China, it maybe should allow a few UN soldiers for peace in Syria sacrifice. So, we will all be more secure fühllen, wherever these brother and sisters present.Maniken-pis (talk) 12:28, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

The little map showing countries that have recognized SNC as the legitimate representative of the Syrian people should not include Canada in this category. See this article http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2013/05/20130528-135647.html Esther dupont (talk) 05:11, 29 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esther dupont (talk • contribs) 23:34, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

New survey
Should we due,to massive political impact and that other syrian-linked pages began putting both the flags of the government and opposition i advise that we make two templates presenting the government flag and the opposition flag putted in the politic section of the article. Alhanuty (talk) 14:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

And these how the template will look like and they will be put in the political section of the article,and I think that the proposed infoboxes for Syria  must be done due to disputes over diplomatic recognition. Alhanuty (talk) 14:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

And because bashar government still control damascus his info box will be put first,then the opposition one last.24.0.210.152 (talk) 14:58, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Could you present sources that a functioning opposition government actually exists ? - ☣Tourbillon A ? 15:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * here is a reuters report from raqqa that shows realities on the ground, the rebel flag has to be represented until reality, not you, says different imo,  - you are getting in the way of realities with your pov, and totalitarian style representation of complex multiform realities - if it weren't functioning opposition governance, reuters would say so its just total anarchy here, but that's not what the report says, - this is just from one area- Sayerslle (talk) 14:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Please read Government before making other such comments. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 14:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I read the first sentence -"A government is the system by which a state or community is governed" - how is the community of raqqa governed? I don't need to be told to read an article on government like some damn O level student, anyhow - watch the news, read non-totalitarian news - reality, thats the thing. Sayerslle (talk) 14:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * So who are the ministers of the interior, foreign policy, finance, education, health and defence of the opposition ? Is Raqqa the capital of the opposition, and if so, who pronounced it to be ? What is the coat of arms (not logo) of the opposition ? Why do embassies worldwide continue to wave the Syrian Arab Republic flag ? Does the opposition government have its own constitution, judiciary, executive and legislative branches (per the article you didn't read) ? I think not. If you think it does, you can provide sources for all of the above. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 15:55, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So did you respond to the reality in raqqa ? I think not, blah, blah.what is the coat of arms? is that was this is about? who is minister of the interior in Saraqib? You aren't thinking about realities are you? the law in some areas seems to be  different to others - paul wood bbc - from saraqib    I think you are trying to make out things are clear cut when they are not - as for the rest, maybe things will be clearer after this meeting  - but you are denying realitiesSayerslle (talk) 16:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The reality in Syria is not just the reality in Raqqa, which actually consists of a black jihadist flag over the governor's palace. Even the source you just provided clearly states that The exiled leaders of the opposition have been unable to exert authority on the ground. As stated before, there's obviously no such thing as an opposition government, thank you for providing sources to ease the closure of this discussion. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 20:39, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * but you are saying the reality in Syria you will dictate and represent must exclude the reality in raqqa and saraqib etc - thank you for demonstrating how the totalitarian mind works - closing down discussions. reality is the master. Sayerslle (talk) 22:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

How about thresholds?
I'm surprised nothing like the following has come up before but I was thinking if we could set a criteria where a certain amount of recognition triggers a certain type of infobox, something like: --Marianian(talk) 06:22, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't agree. In this case, there's one nominally existing government (the opposition) and another one with a fully operational state apparatus (Baath). The only situation where we could have a neutral infobox is this, in my opinion:


 * 1) Opposition sets up a capital;
 * 2) Opposition government appoints ministers;
 * 3) Free Syrian Army is fully under control of the opposition government.
 * None of these is at hand right now, so I don't see how adding an infobox with this thing and presenting it as a "government" can be adequate. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 06:06, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I have to agree. Neither side is in control or fully in control, due to foreign influence. It's currently in a state of flux. Rather than react mintue by minute, I'd suggest awaiting the outcome of events, rather than disrupt a nation's article over a civil war, which does deserve its own article.Wzrd1 (talk) 06:13, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 31 July 2013

 * Image = Syria-flag 1932-58 1961-63.svg
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Where exactly should that be added? Jackmcbarn (talk) 03:21, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Inaccuracy in quotation
Hello, there is an error on the page. It says the following:

>> US Secretary of State John Kerry said it was "undeniable" that chemical weapons had been used in the country and that President Bashar al-Assad's forces had committed a "moral obscenity" against his own people. <<

This should be emended to say the following:

>> US Secretary of State John Kerry said it was "undeniable" that chemical weapons had been used in the country and that those responsible had committed a "moral obscenity". <<

Sorry to be a nag, it's just that politicians will never ever speak a lie in the public, so they choose their words carefully to reflect what they want people to hear. Anyone with an account reading this, please help! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.252.236 (talk) 19:44, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * ❌ The source specifically says that Kerry said it was President Bashar al-Assad's forces. Jackmcbarn (talk) 22:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion: link to Syrian civil war on top of the page
In my opinion, the lead of this article should have either or , to make it easier for readers to find the article about the armed conflict in Syria. The Syrian war is being mentioned at Portal:Current events almost every day. --82.170.113.123 (talk) 17:02, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done I've added it to the existing hatnote. Jackmcbarn (talk) 22:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --82.170.113.123 (talk) 23:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * by Lihaas. Jackmcbarn (talk) 02:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Why was this undone? As a user with a genuine research mission, I had a jolly old time finding the info I wanted, partly due to the lack of such a link. The Syrian civil war entry is also getting unwieldy, too. Certainly if/when the US makes a significant entry into the conflict (potentially along with Russia) it will need to cut to the chase a bit more. I bet the vast majority of visitors to this page at the moment are interested in the unfolding crisis. Why not help them out with a prominent link? --Russell E (talk) 08:36, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Photo
There is a photo (File; Ghouta massacre1.JPG), in the "Human Rights" section with the caption;


 * "Unverfied image of people in Ghouta killed by a chemical attack in August 2013"

The "unverified" part says it all... this photo does not belong in this article. And incidentally, I see that someone else has nom'd for deletion. -  thewolfchild  04:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This photo violates policy Image use policy Privacy rights, Photographs of identifiable people - USchick (talk ) 05:02, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

The photo and associated article Syria has no place in the main article. Other politically motivated edits have been made in semi-protected articles Middle_East as well. - Slickmoon12 (talk 05:57, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Flag, coat of arms and government
Why is Syrian flag and Syrian coat of arms changed to the rebel flag on the article? Also, it says that the president, the prime minister and speaker of the people's council is "Free Syrian Army." Obviously someone is fooling around with this article because this absolutely makes no sense. Please revert these completely baseless and incorrect changes as soon as possible.

Fixed now. Thank you (whoever you are). — Preceding unsigned comment added by LvcAK47 (talk • contribs) 14:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Please reflect here only the formal government. Qadeer Nil (talk) 21:22, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2014
Hi, I would like to rename "Syrian Orthodox" (in the "Religion" section) to Syriac Orthodox since it's the official name of this church, thanks.

2A01:E35:2E42:5D80:802B:835:E792:7C4A (talk) 01:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done. Cheers,  Little Mountain  5  23:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Syria History Timeline
Please include the following link which provides a timeline of events in Syria from Pre-History to present. The timeline uses wikipedia sources and provides links to those sources.

Chronology of Syria from Pre-History to present — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mind2mind (talk • contribs) 22:45, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

An inaccuracy
It is written "attempting to prevent the establishment of the State of Israel.[35]". That is wrong. Following the link [35], we read in Encyclopedia Britannica "The humiliating failure of the Arab intervention in Palestine against the newly created State of Israel in May 1948 brought serious discredit to the governments of the Arab countries involved, but nowhere more than in Syria.". So, in my opinion, the right expression would be not "to prevent the establishment of the State of Israel", but "to destroy the newly created State of Israel". If one of the administrators would have the kindness to correct this inaccuracy! Panos193, 18:05, 24 January 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.174.225 (talk)

syrian people article
i asked for an RfC on the syrian people article, please participate, its very important, go to Talk:Syrian people --Attar-Aram syria (talk) 13:00, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * the conflict was resolved, thanks any way--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 14:44, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Armenian Claims? Here Too
Why is Armenian Genocide added to "every" Turkish related articles? "genocide was carried out by the Ottomans and their allies in the form of the Armenian Genocide and Assyrian Genocide, both of which impacted on[how?] northern Syria" This looks like a political saying. It's not related to Syria.--Kafkasmurat (talk) 00:12, 9 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I have changed the sentence to indicate what the source, which I have added, states. Your welcome. Pouring a People into the Desert:The "Definitive Solution" of the Unionists to the Armenian Question, Fuat Dundar, A Question of Genocide, ed. Ronald Grigor Suny, Fatma Muge Gocek and Norman M. Naimark, (Oxford University Press, 2011), 280-281. --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:20, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Tourism in Syria
Hi! It would be great if you could create this article: Tourism in Syria!

Perhaps you can draw some inspiration from Tourism in Brazil and Tourism in Germany. :) Use proper sources! Thanks & all the best, Horst-schlaemma (talk) 21:01, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Popolation Number
the latest CIA factbook estimate that only 17,951,639 remained :( sadly

im not gonna change the number, I'll leave it to one of you, i dont want to go into discussions about the validity of this new number, so now you have a note of the new estimations.CIA fACTBOOK --Attar-Aram syria (talk) 02:49, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

DEMOGRAPHICS TABLE
The table in Demographics section "Historical populations" is INCORRECT.

Percent number should be +38%, +44%, +52%, +30%, +18%.

--Pimlico27 (talk) 00:18, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Be-headings and crucifixions
Syria has a large number of cases of be-headings and crucifixions, (graphic videos also available on the internet). This page must contain information about all aspects of the country without prejudicing between positive and negative ones. for example -http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/30/islamic-extremists-now-crucifying-people-in-syria-and-tweeting-out-the-pictures.html 14.139.229.34 (talk) 15:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * yes there shouldn't be any prejudice but the syrian war topic is only summarized in this page and those crimes are only partials of the syrian war, so they should be mentioned in the Syrian Civil War article not in the main article of syria, you can suggest those edits there --Attar-Aram syria (talk) 16:15, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

No Article about Moshe Maoz- a world recognized expert on Syria
Moshe Maoz as an Israeli SCholar is to my opinion perhaps the only one with minimum or almost no Zionist Bias about Syria. There is however an article on Mordechai Kedar who is deeply biased. Moshe Maos deserves an article, and now more than even for working on a summary of the uprising in Syria. The Hebrew Article is not so good and suffers of many problems as well. 84.111.208.168 (talk) 18:21, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

semi-presidential republic??
"The current constitution of Syria, adopted in 2012, effectively transformed the country into a semi-presidential republic due to the constitutional right for the election of individuals who do not form part of the National Progressive Front." This sentence needs a lot more explication to be understandable for outsiders...! — Preceding unsigned comment added by HilmarHansWerner (talk • contribs) 22:01, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 July 2019
In the English language page "Syria", in section "Agrarian reform", 2nd paragraph, change "...established collective barging..." to "...established collective bargaining..." Normal-x (talk) 12:58, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Masum Reza 📞 13:15, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Country Map Update
Syria claims signifigant portions of territory it does not control, the Golan Heights and Turkey's Hatay province, as these areas are visible on the map, they should be shaded light green as territory claimed but not controlled just as similar areas are on the maps of China, India, Venezuela, Ukraine, Georgia, Japan, Moldova, Somalia, Pakistan,ect.XavierGreen (talk) 16:37, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree with this. Mushteeg (talk) 00:12, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between claiming and legally owning. The Hatay is recognized internationally as Turkish (despite how it was actually annexed by Turkey). The Golan, on the other hand, is illegally occupied by Israel and this is the international consensus. In short, Syria does not claim Golan, its Israel that does, and actively illegally occupy it. Therefore, if the map will be changed, then the colours of Golan cannot be the same as those of Hatay.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 13:13, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Severan Arab matriarchs
This is wrong:

"Her great nephews, also Arameans from Syria, would also become Roman Emperors, the first being Elagabalus and the second, his cousin Alexander Severus."

"The matriarch of the family and Empress of Rome as wife of emperor Septimius Severus was Julia Domna, a Syrian from the city of Emesa"

Domna was not Aramaean, she was Arab, from the Emesan Dynasty which academics agree are an Arab family.

This has to be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julia Domna Ba'al (talk • contribs) 13:09, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Arab Presence in Syria
I propose adding a section regarding Arab presence in Syria, from 9th-6th century wars against Assyria, then Achaemenid Arabia, then extensive Arab presence during the Seleucid and early Roman periods. Arab kingdoms like Emesa and Nabataea (which controlled Damascus for a while) are not mentioned.

"According to Strabo, Pliny and Ptolemy, much of the Province of Syria was populated by Arabs" -MCA Macdonald. Julia Domna Ba&#39;al (talk) 13:12, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

This article is used as a reference by some that Arabs never had major influence over Syria pre-Islam, and it's written in a way that encourages that idea. Julia Domna Ba&#39;al (talk) 13:19, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

No mentions of Iturea, Tanukhids (around Aleppo), Salihids, Ghassanids ruling ALL of Syria under Justinian, tribes such as banu kalb, and many other. Jabiya, the cultural center of Arabs pre-Islam is located in modern day Syria. I can write a short section summarizing all this pending approval (don't want to waste me time). Julia Domna Ba&#39;al (talk) 14:37, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * There should be no subsections for ethnicities or peoples, like every other country article on Wikipedia the history subsections should reflect historical periods. You can write the content about the Arabs in the ancient and classical periods if it is sourced. I know little of the history of Syria but I feel that the Arab Nabataeans and the Arabs of Palmyra are underrepresented. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:18, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It says I can't edit if I have less than 500+ edits. Can I write it here and you add it to the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julia Domna Ba'al (talk • contribs) 15:23, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Of course that's what I meant. Add it here with the sources and I will add it to the article. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:28, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Fort Arbea near Hadrian's Wall
"The Aramaic language has been found as far afield as Hadrians Wall in Ancient Britain, with inscriptions written by Assyrian and Aramean soldiers of the Roman Empire.[53]"

1. The source provided does not call them Assyrian or Aramaean.

2. The fort has nothing to with Syria. Its builders were Iraqi. EDIT: Nevermind, they were both Syrian and Iraqi.Julia Domna Ba&#39;al (talk) 12:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

3. The inhabitants were Arab, from the [Kingdom of Araba] in central Mesopotamia with Hatra as its capital, near another major Arab city Singara. EDIT: Arabs from Iraq plus Palmyrenes, who were either Arab or Aramaean.Julia Domna Ba&#39;al (talk) 12:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

4. Septimius Severus's wars here, from where he relocated the "Tigris Boatmen" to England, were called the Arabian wars.

Source: Glen Bowersock's Roman Arabia (among others).

This sentence should either be removed, or edited to include accurate information. Julia Domna Ba&#39;al (talk) 12:44, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

---

The site was inhabited by Arabs from central Mesopotamia but the inscription was from a Palmyrene emigrant (either Arab or Aramaean).

User:Makeandtoss can you edit this line? Make it:

The Aramaic language has been found as far afield as Hadrians Wall in Ancient Britain[1] with an inscription written by a Palmyrene emigrant at the site of Fort Arbeia.[2]

1- same source, the guardian article 2- Palmyra: Mirage in the Desert, Joan Aruz, 2018, page 78.

Julia Domna Ba&#39;al (talk) 09:23, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll do that. This article was plagued by Assyrian nationalists who shoved Assyria everywhere.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 09:35, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

new data added
added new section regarding the current critical situation and new developing national crisis situation in Syria. --Sm8900 (talk) 19:30, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Major economic crisis, 2020
In the "Major economic crisis, 2020" section it says "On 10 June, hundreds of protesters returned to the streets of Sweida for the fourth consecutive day, rallying against the collapse of the country’s economy, as the Syrian pound plummeted to 3,000 to the dollar within the past week.", but when I calculate it here, it says 1 USD = 514 SYP. Am I missing something? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)


 * It's volatile and exchanges need time to update. It's normal. Here it says 2000: https://sp-today.com/en/
 * Here it says 3500:
 * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/12/syrian-protesters-call-for-assads-downfall-as-economic-crisis-deepens
 * Julia Domna Ba&#39;al (talk) 06:22, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Αn additional problem with this section is that it is very poorly written. Material has been added in haphazard fashion, without any logical flow, and the same thing is repeated over and over again. Most of these additions fall within WP:RECENT and WP:NOTNEWS. The section needs to be drastically trimmed and tightened. Khirurg (talk) 18:35, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Ba'athist Syria
The current text contains a contradiction on the time period Syria had troops in Lebanon: It says: "In early 1976, Syria entered Lebanon, beginning their thirty-year military presence.[88]" It also says: "In 2005, Syria ended its military presence in Lebanon.[96][97]" I am not a mathematician, but fail to see how this adds up to 33 years... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DF:5F4F:8734:20CC:4325:E81:F97F (talk) 16:12, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You're right, it's 29 years, not 33; I fixed it. George Al-Shami (talk) 23:21, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Why is there no map (polit. & geogr.)?
Wanted to look up the two places called Bani(y)as on the map of Syria, but there is no map where one is expected. Why? Arminden (talk) 12:45, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request
In the lead, please add “a country in the Levant region of Western Asia”.2603:8081:160A:BE2A:51BF:100C:BF87:623D (talk) 08:47, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * ❌. First sentence is packed as is. Levant is mentioned in the third paragraph, which I think belongs better. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 03:18, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2021
Add a line about the most recent missile strikes on Syrian land by US president Joe Biden. Edimeme (talk) 13:46, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Sincerely, Deauthorized. (talk) 23:55, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Relative size of Aleppo and Damascus
I noticed that this article and the articles List of cities in Syria, Aleppo and Damascus have conflicting information about relative size of these cities. I realise that it must be difficult to obtain the true figures, but it would be good if someone with a knowledge of the most reliable sources on the topic could update the four articles to reflect the same information, and/or add a footnote about the uncertainty. (I have just removed the reference to size in the introductory section of this article.) Laterthanyouthink (talk) 00:29, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm from Aleppo and I think Aleppo is the biggest syrian city Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 22:46, 21 August 2021 (UTC)


 * After the start of the civil war in 2011, Damascus has become the largest Syrian city. It is true that Aleppo was the largest, but not any more. George Al-Shami (talk) 00:14, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi protected edit request
Under History - French Mandate (2.5), the second paragraph reads: In 1925, Sultan al-Atrash led a revolt that broke out in the Druze Mountain and spread to engulf the whole of Syria and parts of Lebanon. Al-Atrash won several battles against the French, notably the Battle of al-Kafr on 21 July 1925

The link of Battle of al-Kafr leads to the 1882 Battle of Kafr El Dawwar in Egypt. It should instead lead to the correct Battle of al-Kafr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_al-Kafr

2001:8F8:1361:7F53:C1B3:A8DA:E792:6E4D (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes check.svg Corrected SuperiorGoat (talk) 03:18, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Paisleypappas1.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 10:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2018 and 22 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nabil.belkhiria.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2018 and 22 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Pauljsjr.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 January 2019 and 17 April 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Loramouammer.

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Semi-protected edit request on 1 July 2022
Please change the hyperlink in Palestine in "In May 1948, Syrian forces invaded Palestine" from Palestine the region to Mandatory Palestine. 188.247.77.83 (talk) 21:04, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Qhnbgjt (talk) 11:45, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 July 2022 (2)
The largest city in Syria is Aleppo. Not Damascus, which is what is mistakenly written in the introduction of the Wikipedia page of Syria. Not only do many sources prove this https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/cities/syria But wikipedia's own "list of cities in Syria" has Aleppo as the largest/most populated city in Syria. 94.205.97.129 (talk) 23:10, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Qhnbgjt (talk) 11:45, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Edit-undo.svg Undone: This request has been undone.

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Source needs to be something like a official government website showing population of cities, or a news article referring to it. This source appears to be mainly a blog Fbifriday (talk) 14:59, 10 July 2022 (UTC)


 * More details (since I happened to look into this a bit further): World Population Review cites one source, GeoNames. GeoNames does in fact have matching population details (Damascus, Aleppo), but looking at the history reveals that both of these statistics have remained unchanged since their import in 2006. It seems plausible that the civil war has significantly changed the relative sizes of the cities, but the website of the Syrian Central Bureau of Statistics seems dead. Vahurzpu (talk) 03:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Ethnicity breakdown
The information on ethnicity in the infobox warrants further discussion. Neither the previous stable source, which was figures from Columbia, nor the recently added input from the CIA World factbook, provide clear data. The Columbia data provided a hybridized snapshot of ethnicity groupings by combining ethnic and religious features; the CIA data is more simplistic, but includes the entirely unexplained groupings "Levantines", which seems to be a vague catch-all term that achieves little except raise questions. Wikipedia does not even have a redirect to somewhere for that term, let alone a page explaining what it might mean in an ethnic context. Ethnicity is complex and deserves better treatment. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:37, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It’s not simply the “Columbia” source. It doesn’t exactly belong to the university but to a person, Mehrdad Izady, who created the map, while working there. In other pages, he was concluded to be unreliable, so I believe he should not be included as a source. I understand your concerns about CIA World Factbook. We can add another source in order to combine with it. I will look for it as time will allow and make appropriate edits, so you can check and let me know if it is okay. And ethnicity is indeed complex. But especially, in such regions like Syria, it is closely related with religion, so it is hard to separate them. Ayıntaplı (talk) 16:32, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Sep 2022 boat disaster
Do we have anything on it? 41.58.242.97 (talk) 18:03, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Syria
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Syria's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "MiddleEastEye": From Syrian civil war:  From Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria:  </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 17:02, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Map
I am inquiring as to why you object to using a map of Syria which includes it's territorial claims in light green? This is the standard for all other country articles with disputed territories such as Ukraine, Japan, North and South Korea, Taiwan (on the third map), Russia, Venezuela, and others. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 00:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

As per your edit summary, it was controversial, and I reverted it, as I thought it could be elaborated on in the body text instead. If this is a standard practice, which I hadn’t noticed until today, you can restore your edit. Ayıntaplı (talk) 03:22, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Golan heights
why isn't the golan heights included in the map of Syria? 2001:4479:C801:2B00:C47B:6E45:5BD6:F9FB (talk) 07:18, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes it should be added at least as disputed territory just like Crimea by light green between Israel and Syria and by international law it's still Syrian only Israel and US recognizes it isn't Nlivataye (talk) 05:58, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Totalitarian
I wouldn’t call Syria totalitarian. While I’d definitely agree that it’s authoritarian, a certain amount of opposition is tolerated and the government doesn’t have complete control of the people. 2600:4041:453A:B200:9CCD:43A7:6CA2:57C5 (talk) 00:30, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:37, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Syria (orthographic projection) disputed.svg

Aramaic transliterations

 * Aramaic is not an official language of the Syrian state and there is no reason to have it included as transliterations in the lede. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:28, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Not all of Syria is "officially the Syrian Arab Republic"
The SAR is one of the multiple rival organizations/governments administrating the Syrian territories. Almost all of these recognised Syrian international boundaries (with the historical exception of IS after ISIS ended in 2014 and they "abolished Syria" in their territories along with the Iraqi-Syrian border) but these are not necessarily (the Rojava claims are complicated, claiming just an autonomy but wanting to do away with the "Arab" thing at once) "officially the Syrian Arab Republic" for the local governments. 5.173.105.14 (talk) 07:30, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Apologies and an edit request
I edited this page when I should not have.

I was advised on Treehouse to make an edit request to fix my broken citation. GoutComplex (talk) 22:39, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Invasion of Palestine
The statement "The Invasion purpose was to prevent the establishment of the State of Israel." is neither true nor is it upheld by the source given, which only states "The humiliating failure of the Arab intervention in Palestine against the newly created State of Israel in May 1948 brought serious discredit to the governments of the Arab countries involved, but nowhere more than in Syria." Syria was part of the Arab League and their official statement was that they were intervening in Palestine because of the lawlessness there and the ethnic cleansing: "The recent disturbances in Palestine further constitute a serious and direct threat to peace and security within the territories of the Arab States themselves. For these reasons, and considering that the security of Palestine is a sacred trust for them, and out of anxiousness to check the further deterioration of the prevailing conditions and to prevent the spread of disorder and lawlessness into the neighbouring Arab lands, and in order to fill the vacuum created by the termination of the Mandate and the failure to replace it by any legally constituted authority, the Arab Governments find themselves compelled to intervene for the sole purpose of restoring peace and security and establishing law and order in Palestine." (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cablegram_from_the_Secretary-General_of_the_League_of_Arab_States_to_the_Secretary-General_of_the_United_Nations) Mcdruid (talk) 06:53, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2023
Remove the following templates: Non-Aligned Movement (only links to "[MEMBER] and the Non-Aligned Movement" pages like India and the Non-Aligned Movement) and Journeys of Paul the Apostle (template links to Roman Syria). 2600:8800:590E:BB00:ADFC:913B:A194:49 (talk) 23:33, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Lightoil (talk) 04:20, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Syria is a presidential state
Syria is a presidential state as per the 2012 Constitution. It grants unchecked powers to President de jure. A citation from Assad government is Unreliable, since it is either propaganda and/or it doesnt understand the difference between semi-presidential and presidential systems.

Presidential vs semi-presidential system In a presidential system, the head of government is directly or indirectly elected by a group of citizens and is not responsible to the legislature, and the legislature cannot dismiss the president.

semi presidential states differs from the presidential system in that the cabinet, although named by the president, is responsible to the legislature, which may force the cabinet to resign through a motion of no confidence

Keeping in mind that Syria is ruled as a de-facto presidential dictatorship, Assad government is also a de-jure presidential republic with a highly powerful presidency, as shall be demonstrated below.

Atleast 21 articles in Constitution are assessed by legal experts and Syrian activists to have bestowed unrestrained powers on the Presidency, to the point that a transition process is unfeasible:

The provisions in the 2012 Constitution explicitly allow the President to dismiss the People's Assembly (parliament), the Prime Minister and Council of Ministers as per his discretion. Moreover, the Constitution is explicit that the Council of Ministers is responsible to the President, not the other way around. Other powers granted to the President include the direct control of the military and its operations. The 2012 Constitution also states that the President can assume legislative authority all by himself even during parliamentary sessions, in addition to reject the laws passed by the People's Assembly. It should be noted that the parliament is a de-facto rubber stamp of the Ba'ath party. I shall next quote some of these provisions that entrenches the absolute authority of the President in the Constitution.

As shown above, the Syrian Presidency constitutionally has unchecked powers over all 3 branches, the executive, legislature and judiciary and even beyond legal constitutional structures. Countries with far lesser Presidential powers and oversight are regarded as Presidential systems. (eg: United States and Turkey) Thus, Syria is governed explicitly as a Presidential state per its 2012 Constitution. shadowwarrior8 (talk) 12:52, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, I’m convinced. Excellent analysis. Would you then consider the president to be the head of government? 25stargeneral (talk) 21:57, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The 2012 Constitution doesnt explicitly designate a "head of government". It understands "government" as an administration appointed by the President which consists of Prime Minister and his Council of Ministers. (article 120)
 * At the same time, this govt is also "responsible" before the Presidency (article 121)
 * De-facto President is the head, but I guess this is open to interpretation de-jure . Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 03:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Since the president directs the agenda of the government and has the power to chair the cabinet I’m inclined to agree the president is the head of government. This is similar to Belarus which is a fully presidential regime with a PM. I think the Prime Minister of Syria article needs to do a better job explaining the role of that position. We should search for references to clarify this. 25stargeneral (talk) 04:27, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Per WP:NOR, I have changed the wording "head of govt" --> "head of Council of Ministers", in addition to some Updation. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 07:14, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Years in Syria - 1981
Greetings - Today I added 1981 in Syria and am inviting interested editors to expand content.

For the "Births" section, below are entries do not have Wikipedia articles so feel free to write any of these.
 * Shady Othman
 * Saad al Ghefari
 * Hiba Al-Akkad
 * Nagham Hodaifa

For the "Deaths", after searching I cannot find any entries so I did not add the secction.

I'm posting this information at both the WikiProject talk and the Syria talk. Regards, JoeNMLC (talk) 19:35, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm glad that Syria is no longer described as a "one-party state" in the info box.
Syria might've been ruled by the same political party for decades, but that doesn't make it a one-party state; there are other political parties in the country, such as the Communist Party. So I think the best description of Syria would be a unitary Baathist dominant-party semi-presidential republic. 2600:4041:552C:3200:2CE4:498F:CC24:2447 (talk) 21:09, 11 May 2023 (UTC)


 * its a totalionalist dictatorship or however to spell it. 2001:1970:55E8:7F00:60F6:D4AD:9672:10DE (talk) 19:45, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Syria-Turkey Earthquake 2023
Can anyone add the earthquake that happened in Syria? Flag Creator (talk) 11:25, 27 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I think for this page we just write it in history a little then show a link to another page in full detail 2001:1970:55E8:7F00:60F6:D4AD:9672:10DE (talk) 19:46, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 September 2023
Typo: "Aleppo,Homs" in main section of the article. 2A02:1810:363D:6700:E813:9850:7A8E:2471 (talk) 08:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ M.Bitton (talk) 10:49, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

infobox government
I do believe that in the government section of the infobox, the "hereditary" should be removed, as pro-Assad sentiment is still high in Syria, and if there were elections under the auspices of the United Nations-led political process and ones that adhere to standards for free and fair elections would result in a very likely win by Assad, making it in someway inaccurate.

I'm open to debate this. Smint34 (talk) 00:34, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Edit request - Turkish-backed militias and YPG/YPJ
"As of 2023, Turkey was continuing its support for various militias within Syria, consisting mostly of the YPG/YPJ, which periodically attempted some operations against Kurdish groups."

This sentence makes no sense - the YPG/YPJ are the Kurdish fighting units which Turkey is attacking. One possible correction:

"As of 2023, Turkey was continuing its support for various militias within Syria, which periodically attempted some operations against Kurdish groups consisting mostly of the YPG/YPJ." Rachelwearsshoes (talk) 22:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅ Thanks, you're right, this makes zero sense. Yr Enw (talk) 08:12, 2 January 2024 (UTC)