Talk:T'au Empire/Archive 1

Popularity
"the Tau were initially disliked by many gamers" - I can find no evidence to back up this statement. In point of fact, the original Tau army releases proved to be a very popular seller, and the re-realeased army deal (March 2006) has already sold out 5 days before it's official release. If no one objects I will remove this statement. --Crais459 13:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Do it. The whole article can use more NPOV'ing in all regards. --Paul Soth 06:57, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Gameplay Lack
Keep in mind that most articles in Wikipedia have next to nothing about the actual gaming part of things. Is there a special reason for that, or not?

And it's true the Tau weren't very liked for actual gaming. Once everyone got a little bit of Fast Attack, Tau popularity in games vanished. People like their look and culture, but using them is a different story. Saying that any army is not popular is not a personal POV. Some evidence just isn't exactly there, it's just a common assumption that everyone around speaks how the Tau "suck" (when, in point, they just don't know how to use them). Saying that they suck, however, IS an opinion. Colonel Marksman 19:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC) (I think it would've been fine to keep that line in the article)

Not an original army
Should there be any mention that they are one of the newer (ie not original) armies? -- Asbestos, June 21 15:22

Origin of the Tau name
'tau' is not a homonym of 'tao'. as phonetic the real-world religion of taoism is 'dao'137.154.16.30 06:46, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * 'Tao' and 'Dao' are both acceptable romanisations of the same word. Tao is hitorically the more common spelling.
 * Due top Games Workshop's history of rip-offs (such as the ""Holy Orbs of Antioch"", better known to Monty Python fans as The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch), I always asumed it was a debasement of the Goa'uld word for humans, Tau'ri. Vanghar 10:12, 06 January 2006

Origin of the Tau symbol
The comment in the trivia section recently changed from:
 * The Tau Fire caste symbol is remarkably similar to the older Marathon symbol . It is not uncommon for younger Warhammer players to comment on Marathon-inspired works, confused why the supposed Tau symbol would be used in a piece of art, for they are ignorant of which was the original.

to:
 * The Tau Fire caste symbol is often argued as being a direct copy of the Marathon symbol . It is, in fact, a stylized design of the 19th letter in the Greek alphabet.

The earlier version seems excellent to me (as trivia), while the replacement is questionable. There's hardly any resemblance between the Tau symbol and the Greek letter Tau. Does anybody have a source for this, or should it be changed back? --Khajja 02:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * My general feeling says that "trivia" is by definition non-encyclopedic (to quote Wiktionary "insignificant trifles of little importance, especially items of unimportant information") and should probably be removed anyway. Cheers --Pak21 12:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Many articles on Wikipedia have trivia sections. Its just a place to put information that might not fit in elsewhere.--KrossTalk 23:54, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Many articles on Wikipedia have POV comments, but that doesn't mean we should leave the POV comments in this article either. Cheers --Pak21 07:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Trivia is not POV. Looking around at Wikipedia articles, it mostly refers to origins and copies of something that was already in existance or was once popular culture, or is just some interesting facts. E.g. To say that Sir Aurthor Doyle wrote his story "The Lost World" so as to leave behind hints to fooling archiologists and scientists would be trivia. What's it got to do with anything? It's just interesting information that doesn't fit anywhere else. Colonel Marksman 19:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Gue'vesa
No mention of the Gue'vesa in the allies section. I'd do it myself, but I'm no good with formatting in Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.104.250.115 (talk • contribs)
 * That sounds like a reasonable addition to the article to me; please add the text you're thinking of, either directly to the article or here, and someone (possibly me, but I'm busy with work for the next week) will add the necessary formatting etc. Cheers, and thanks for contributing --Pak21 08:59, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I have made a Gue'vesa article. --Archon Divinus 22:09, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I will add this to the links section, along with Kroot, Nicassar and Vespid. --Crais459 13:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Slaanesh
Does anyone have a source for the recently added comments about the Tau believing they have killed Slaanesh? It seems slightly fishy to me, but I'm happily prepared to admit I'm wrong. Cheers --Pak21 17:34, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's a reference to this story. It describes a single Tau commander believing that he had just defeated Slaanesh in person, when he had only killed 'a giant in electric blue armour, edged in gold and pink' (ie, probably not the greater demon that the article currently claims).  In addition, this was only the belief of the local commander, and there is no indication that the Tau in general believe Slaanesh to be dead. --Khajja 02:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I read that article, and the stories don't match up. The article refers to the army defeated by the Tau commander as 'Slaanesh’s army', but makes no assertion that the army is literally led by Slaanesh itself.  A simple case of misinterpretation.  Someone go ahead and remove that section.  Walther Atkinson 03:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * ...except for the phrase to surround Slaanesh, which indicates that the Tau commander did believe Slaanesh to be among the surrounded troops. Despite that, I agree that it shouldn't be in the article - as I mentioned earlier, its assumption that the belief of that one commander generalises to that of all Tau isn't supported.  I have removed it. --Khajja 12:34, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

A brief mention of the Tau commander believing he has killed Slaanesh may be of use, if used to illustrate the Tau's relative naiviety regarding the Ruinious Powers and Warp Entities in general.
 * Is there any evidence this goes beyond the one commander mentioned? If not, I don't think it should be included. --Pak21 16:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

NPOV - are the Tau 'good guys'?
I've noticed a fair bit of pro-Tau bias in this. There's a little bit on the dark side of the Tau immediately followed by 'these negative characterizations of the Tau have no basis in the actual printed fiction and rulebooks for the Warhammer 40k setting, and are based solely on fan opinions', which seems a little too pro-Tau, considering that there is evidence of Tau nastiness. The first line or two also includes this bias, reflecting the idea that the Tau are the good guys of the 41st millenium. Tau diplomacy usually consists of 'join us or die', with some cultural imperialism on the side.

Anyway, shouldn't Wiki make more of an effort to be neutral? Don't play up the Tau as the root of all evil, but acknowledge that they aren't clear-cut heroes. Perhaps a category at the bottom talking about interpretations of the Tau?

Oh, and it also says 'The Tau are a relatively young race, but their technology is extremely advanced (inferior only to the Necrons and the Eldar), so much so that the Imperium of Man has of late been wondering if the technological advances were all the Tau's doing.', which is false. Low-end Tau tech is better than common Imp stuff, but the Imperium has access to technology that the Tau can't dream of. It also suggests the Tau have been engineered - there are some rumours regarding that, but nothing canon. A citation would be good for this idea that the Imperium have been speculating thus - to my knowledge, there's no canon source that says that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.63.0.36 (talk • contribs)
 * Hi! There is likely a lot of bias in the article as it was probably written by people who collect the Tau army. If you feel it is biased Be Bold and change it. Ensure you include references - even though people may not have done in the past. I will have a look through and see what should be removed (ie. conjecture, fancruft etc...) -Localzuk (talk) 12:48, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

With regard to Tau Vs. Imperial Technology, Tau Plasma Weaponry in game and in fiction remains just as unstable as Imperial. However, with the release of Codex Tau Empire, it is shown that the Tau are constantly improving their technology. The Tau Empire could be described as having progressive technology, with the ability to advance. It is well established that all Imperial technology is the result of ancient knowledge, and is barely understood even by the Machine Priests. Any "advances" in Imperial Tech are usually explained as the unearthing of a new STC.


 * Please sign yourselves with four "~". I'm working on it all. Trust me, Wikipedia is LITTERED with articles with un-neutral pages in Warhammer and 40000 alike. What really peeves me is the distinction between technological differences. Most technology is just different, it's not necessarily "more advanced" or "better". Credit to the creators of the games should be given to their ability to keep things neutral. Colonel Marksman 17:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC) BTW, did anyone change the article?

One thing that crossed my mind during these discussions and allegations about Tau philosophy and society is that people don't take into consideration that the Tau are not human. It's only natural that they would think and live differently then the human race. For all we know, the caste structure may very well be the natural evolution of their species and not some dark conspiracy leading twarwds an unknown goal. Personally, I think GW has been adding in the more morally ambiguous statements and threads in the newer sourcebooks is so that players can make their own conclusions and play with those ideas in their own scenarios (Campaign in Store A has them as allied liberators, campaign in Store B has them as invaders, etc.). Oh, and please cite your sources. --Paul Soth 04:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Notable characters
I have proposed a guideline for character notablity within Warhammer 40,000 articles which I believe may effect the listings on this page. Please see the proposal at WikiProject Warhammer 40,000/Notability and comment. Cheers --Pak21 10:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * We have now agreed some guidelines, and I believe that all the characters listed here except Farsight, Aun'Va, Shadowsun, Aun'shi and Kais do not meet any of the criteria specified. If you believe any of them do, please give the reasons here. (If you wish to discuss changes to the guidelines, please do this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Warhammer 40,000/Notability). Cheers --Pak21 10:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Discussion from Imperium talk page
(Moved from Talk:Imperium (Warhammer 40,000) - Sasuke Sarutobi 14:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC))

"Join the Greater Good or we will kill you to the last man" is not diplomacy. And the whole idea of the Greater Good is Communist in nature. The Tau are Space Commies, nothing more, nothing less. Rogue 9 05:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, perhaps Communist is unfair, but it is certainly collectivist. Which is certainly not utilitarian, because utilitarianism focuses around what works for the greatest number of people, which collectivism certainly doesn't. Rogue 9 05:30, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The Greater Good seems more in somewhere in between Collectivism and Utilitarianism. That is, sacrificing individual gain and working for the good of all, with the Tau being more concerned about the good of their society rather then just their state.


 * Going back to the other point, from what I've read in the various codexes and White Dwarf articles, the Tau do not actively force assimilation of other races at gunpoint. While they do offer membership to their empire while maintaining that their philosophy is superior to all others, they do not trample all over the sovereignty of other races like the other 40k powers do. For instance, while the Demiurg are not members of the Tau Empire (save for two Brotherhoods), they engage in active trade with the empire and hold a number of treaties. The closest to forced assimilation that the Tau engage in would be offering citizenship to abandoned prisoners of war as an alternative to imprisonment. The actively seek diplomacy before resorting to military action.


 * Anyway, this really belongs on the Tau page. --Paul Soth 05:57, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

>>They appear to be communist on the surface, if one doesn't bother to examine them closely. They're a class-based secular society, while communism societies generally have no classes. Each caste within the Tau's society has it's own autonomous government and social structure that only applies to that particular caste. From Tau history, we can see that the reason this occured is beacuse each Caste is actually a different sub-species of Tau. There's an actual biological difference between them, not just a cultural or economic difference as is the case with humans.

The Tau water-caste, which is generally responsible for the economics, operates on a capitalist system, something a communist society, by it's very nature, wouldn't do.

It basically appears that all the "communist" myths about the Tau simply revolve around a misinterpretation of thier motto "for the greater good". This motto isn't meant in a religious, conquering sense. Instead, it's meant, as implied in the fiction and in the Tau book, as pursueing whatever course of action that would result in the greatest prosperity and security for all parties involved. Of course, just as in real-life high technology capitalist countries who've produced a successful and relatively secure culture (which will go unnamed) sometimes the greater good is seen by the leaders as involving war.

Let's also note that the Tau don't attempt to assimilate alien races into thier Caste system, while communist governments always "re-educate" any conquered peoples. The Kroot, Nicassar, and Vespids all operate autonomously within the Tau Empire and maintain thier own worlds and culture, and are even referred to as "allies" rather than as servants, or vassals.

anyways, since most of this kind of stuff really belongs on the Tau page, I'm going to transfer stuff I added in the Imperium section about them over to the Tau article.

1 Jan, 2006 user:manuelomar2001

Tau Empire is more of pseudo-communism. Whilst it may seem that all Tau are treated equally, that is not quite true. Also, the Tau caste system merely represents what each Tau is best suited at doing, and is then assigned to that style of work, much as communism. Alien races within the Tau empire are similar to simply another catse, only with greater differences from most Tau. Whilst this suggest communism, there are also hints of a capitalist society. All Tau castes follow a tiered system, whereby one proves them selves to advance up, much like a guild would, which is particularly predominant in the Fire caste. This therefore suggests a near Capitalist society. In a sense, Tau society revolves several tiers, creating difference, but all within that teir are similar; in a mini-communist society of their own.

Although some may argue that by nature the Tau is, as the name, suggest an Empire. Simply run, in an almost feudal manner, by the Ethereals, rather than an Emperor. This is supported by inducting new races as a traditional Empire would have a colony. Others may also use "For the Greater Good" as an arguement form communism, by sacrificing the many in order to aid thw whole, much like in communist societies. Some would also take the caste system to represent a Feudal society, with each person established a rough line of work from birth, although with rough room for advancement.

I believe that Tau society is in a class of it's own, and merely used elements of established ruling systems. Vanghar 19:56, 06 January 2006 The Tau are fundamentaly a sucsessfull comunisim. The only reason that soviet comunisim fell is because some members of the socioty used it for controll (stalin) If evryone worked together as the Tau do, Comunisim might acualy work user:Nappy the Quarryman

The Tau are fundamentaly a sucsessfull comunisim. The only reason that soviet comunisim fell is because some members of the socioty used it for controll (stalin) If evryone worked together as the Tau do, Comunisim might acualy work user:Nappy the Quarryman

Regarding comparison to Communism
If the Tau can be compared to a communist society (and I'm talking about the ideal here, not the heavily negative opinion of communism derived from the dictatorships of the 20th and early 21st century), then there needs to be some basis.

First of all, look at the etymology of 'communism'. The word comes from French communisme, derived from Old French commun, 'common', which is itself from Latin communis, 'common'. Thus, it refers to either the state of something being 'common', or by extension, a doctrine or belief that this should be so (due to the presence of the suffix '-ism').

While this term in its bare definition carries no connotations of classlessness, the current derived definition holds this.

'Communism refers to a conjectured future classless, stateless social organization based upon common ownership of the means of production...' (from Communism, bolding mine)

The tightly hierarchical nature of Tau society (six ranks, five castes) means that this label is therefore misapplied, so the Tau cannot fall into the current definition of 'Communist'. They are most certainly Collectivist or Utilitarian - the doctrine of Tau'va, 'the Greater Good', is instilled in them from a young age, and penetrates Tau society deeply - but Communist, they are not.

-- Sasuke Sarutobi 15:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

What we ought to do...
I think the page can use quite a bit of work, as it really becomes a rambling mess at times, even more so when anti-collectivists keep trying to denounce the Tau ideal of the Greater Good ("Forgoing individual gain for the good of the collective BAD! GRRR!"). Anyway, no matter your own personal social-political beliefs, I think we need to do the following:


 * 1: Serious NPOV'ing on all accounts.
 * 2: Removal of speculative statements that have no backing in official material.
 * 3: Removal of all traces of Original Research.
 * 4: Figure out what should go into the article, what is deserving for other articles, and what doesn't really deserve mention (I'd hate to use the word "fancruft," but...).
 * 5: More "real world" facts on The Tau. That is, their publishing history, effect in the various games, design philosophy, etc.

Any takers? --Paul Soth 04:35, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Point 1 Taken
(See above) NOTE: It is purely opinion that the Tau's technology is "inferior" to that of the Necrons and Eldar. Honestly... it's just different. It isn't even fair to say that Ork have the worst technology. We don't know that until we can get an inside look on common life within each of the races... which is not provided. (Ork are pretty resourceful: they take handfuls of junk and travel the galaxy. To me, that's not inferior at all.)

Yes, the races have their checks and balances, but I agree with Paul Soth here... NPOV'ing. Colonel Marksman 18:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Revising
Ok, this article needs some real serious revising. Anyone agree? Colonel Marksman 19:46, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. I'd suggest a rewrite on a temp page somewhere. Cheers --Pak21 11:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * See User:Saberwyn/Saberwyn's Tau Article for the very start of my attempt. What I plan to do is split the article into two sections "Fictional perspective" and "Player perspective" (titles will likely change). The first will deal with a cut-down and NPOV'd version of the article as it is now. The second will deal with the Tau as a playable race, focusiong on when they appeared, the development of the Tau since they appeared, a little bit on the models, and their "appeal to players". Everything I add will be sourced, either as a general source listed at the bottom of the page, or specific comments refered to by footnotes. I ask that you leave my temp article alone until further notice... I'll announce here when I want other people to comment on and play with my work. -- Saberwyn 05:31, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Revision ready for review
See User:Saberwyn/Saberwyn's Tau Article. Its a rewrite intending to cut down on the POV and weasel words used in the article. Leave comments on the talk page there.

It should also be noted that I have removed a lot of the information that I cannot verify with the sources I personally posess. This information has been dumped at User:Saberwyn/Tau Rewrite Holding Pen, along with the references I have removed from my rewrite as personally unaccessible. Please review, and reinsert any verifiable information that would be necessary to the article. -- Saberwyn 12:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * EXCELLENT! Colonel Marksman 13:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * After we get a few pics, I would think it would be time to finally scrap this crap (ryhmes! wow). Colonel Marksman 22:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Move discussion
Moving Saberwyn's revised article over this one has been suggested. Please comment at User talk:Saberwyn/Saberwyn's Tau Article. Cheers --Pak21 19:52, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Tau's form of Government
Wouldn't the government of the Tau approach something like Communism? I mean everyone is equally valued in the Tau empire, work towards the same goal, etc. 24.43.218.30 02:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Read above! --Pak21 06:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Suggested 40k Article Guidelines
I have:
 * An overall page of general guidelines
 * A list that defines different types of articles on differt subjects
 * For Armies "Army Page"
 * For Technology "Technology Page" (equivalent to "Weapons, Vehicles, Equipment Page", or, "WVE page")
 * For Notable Planets "Notable Planet Page"
 * (User:Pak21 already made guidelones for notable characters, but a link to that is included)


 * A statement of purpose for my guidelines
 * Left room for more guidelines to come

--Nothing offical will be done with the guidelines (moved or put to use) until several Wikipedians involved in the Warhammer 40,000 project have verified it.-- Colonel Marksman's Proposed Guidelines

Colonel Marksman 20:57, 27 April 2006 (UTC)