Talk:Türkmenbaşy, Turkmenistan

Untitled
This might be a dumb question, but how can Turkmenbashi be a sea link to Europe? The Caspian Sea doesn't connect to Europe via the sea as far as I know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.94.135.59 (talk) 06:11, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Some parts of European Russia and Kazakhstan border the Caspian Sea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rmpfu89 (talk • contribs) 01:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * As our Europe article says, the eastern margin of Europe is somewhat hazily defined, depending on which geographical criterion is used. Depending on which criterion you use, the caucasus can be considered both part of asia and europe, so by that definition a sea link to Baku would count as a sea link to Europe.  Additionally, the Volga and the various canals connected to it undoubtedly connect the caspian to europe by water (although not really by sea). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The countries of Central Asia are called "landlocked", because they have no direct border with the world ocean by sea, without passing via the territory of another country. But boats on the Caspian Sea can indeed reach Europe, as follows: from the northwestern Caspian Sea port of Astrakhan in the southern part Russia upstream on the river Volga, then via the locks to the Volga-Don canal arriving in the river Don, then downstream to the end of Don river in the Sea of Azov and the Russian Black Sea, crossing the Black Sea to Turkey, and via the Bosporus river passing the city of Istanbul finally to the Mediterranean Sea and via Gibraltar to the Atlantic Ocean. Turkmenbashi is not the only port of the whole Central Asia region; from all ports on the Caspian Sea (not only Turkmenbashi, but also Aqtau or Atyrau in Kazakhsdtan) a ship can reach the European sea ports.  --Alexandersam (talk) 11:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Article title needs correction
Current title Türkmenbaşy (also spelled Turkmenbashi) conflicts with WP conventions, which stipulates a title of the article in English and gives a native name or spelling in parentheses: Turkmenbashi (also spelled Türkmenbaşy).

Examples: Venice, Moscow , etc.: Venice (Venezia, Venetian: Venesia; in honour of goddess Venus)

Moscow ( in British English or in American English; ; see also other names) Barefact (talk) 03:45, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Ferry
Are any of the ferries train ferries? Tabletop (talk)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:38, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Serdar-Oteli-2015.JPG
 * Turkmenbashi-Airport.JPG
 * Turkmenbasy-Railway-Station-2015.JPG

Requested move 2 September 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: (non-admin closure) MOVED clear consensus that the out-of-process move by Hyperx1000 must be reverted. User:力 (power~enwiki, π,  ν ) 03:11, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Krasnovodsk → Türkmenbaşy, Turkmenistan – official name of city  dud  hhr  Contribs 17:23, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No-brainer. It was moved without discussion. I'll do it in a day if there is no objection. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 21:00, 2 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Support per nomination and jpgordon. This entry appears in 54 other Wikipedias and every single one of those, including Russian Wikipedia, uses variations upon Turkmenbasy, with none using the Soviet-era former name, Krasnovodsk. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:32, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose Krasnovodsk is not a former name. It is both the current and most widely used name, and it is the only name used on correct maps. Hyperx1000 (talk) 22:30, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Please provide some reliable sources making this assertion. Certainly, the article in Türkmen Wikipedia calls it Türkmenbaşy; the CIA World Factbook calls it that; other encyclopedias call it that. I can understand the desire not to have a city named after a dictator, but that does seem to be the city's current name. The article needs to be rolled back to the version of August 22 prior to your unilateral actions. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 00:43, 3 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose move. See WP:OFFICIALNAMES.  O.N.R.  (talk) 01:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The article does not need to be rolled back to the version you mentioned. Even if it is a widely used name, the correct name should be used, which is Krasnovodsk. Hyperx1000 (talk) 02:59, 3 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Obvious usage on all other wikipedias and in external sources such as the CIA World Factbook--RicardoNixon97 (talk) 07:14, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The article's equivalents in other languages need to be corrected to match this version. --Hyperx1000 (talk) 20:04, 3 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. The names "Turkmenbashy", "Türkmenbaşı" or other variants of "Türkmenbaşy" can be used. 176.88.30.25 (talk) 08:49, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You can add other names without changing the primary name. --Hyperx1000 (talk) 20:04, 3 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Support See also WP:MODERNPLACENAME and WP:NAMECHANGES. NGIA Geo Names server gives approved name Türkmenbaşy, variant names Krasnovodsk, Krasnowodsk, Krassnowodsk, Turkmenbashi, Türkmenbashy, Türkmenbaşı. Google maps uses Turkmenbashi, Apple Maps Krasnovodsk. —Michael Z. 13:55, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Google Maps is incorrect, but Apple Maps uses the correct name of the city. --Hyperx1000 (talk) 20:04, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * According to which Wikipedia guideline is that “correct”? —Michael Z. 20:42, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not referring to the guidelines of Wikipedia, I am referring to the name used on maps that include the city. --Hyperx1000 (talk) 20:58, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned, different maps use different names. Above, you referred to “correct maps”; how did you determine which are correct, unless it was WP:ILIKEIT? Anyway, I suggest your arguments refer to Wikipedia naming guidelines, or they carry little weight. 21:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I mean the official (and most likely also common) name of the city when I say "correct". --Hyperx1000 (talk) 21:32, 3 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Britannica says “Turkmenbashi, also spelled Türkmenbashy, formerly Krasnovodsk, port city, western Turkmenistan. The city was renamed in 1993 by Turkmenistan’s dictator-president, Saparmurad Niyazov, who patterned the new name after his own formal title of Turkmenbashi (‘Head of the Turkmen’).” —Michael Z. 02:21, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Support The proposed name (or variants of it) appears to be more commonly used in English-language sources. WP:OFFICIALNAMES does not require we use official names, nor does it forbid it, but instead calls for the name used most commonly in sourcing. Interestingly, a search in Google news for Krasnovodsk brings up mostly coverage referencing it in the context of a "former" name.--Yaksar (let's chat) 18:15, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The proposed name is not more commonly used. The few references there are to the city use that name because they are either confusing it with other cities of the same name, or just completely incorrect. Krasnovodsk is not a widely known location. --Hyperx1000 (talk) 20:04, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Would editors arguing “more common” please provide their evidence? Thanks. —Michael Z. 20:44, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Are you in support or in opposition to the edit? --Hyperx1000 (talk) 21:00, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Does it matter? —Twice Nothing (talk) 23:49, 4 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Support Scheridon (talk) 21:20, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Please provide a valid reason to support the edit. --Hyperx1000 (talk) 21:30, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The article in Türkmen Wikipedia calls it Türkmenbaşy. That's it. Scheridon (talk) 13:49, 4 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Support Hyperx1000 user arbitrarily renamed 4 articles at once. I ask everyone to return the old name. And block the user. Thanks.

--188.119.120.61 (talk) 03:19, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Krasnovodsk International Airport
 * Krasnovodsk International Seaport
 * Krasnovodsk
 * Template:Cities of Turkmenistan
 * Agreed. These will all be rolled back at the same time. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 04:52, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support despite nom (but per jpgordon). The fact that "Türkmenbaşy" is the official name is, by policy, irrelevant: Wikipedia articles should follow common English-language usage, whatever that is. However, as far as I can tell from Googling, the name most commonly used by English-speakers is indeed Turkmenbashi (Turkmenbashi -Saparmurat -Saparmurad 439,000; Krasnovodsk 184,000). I'm open to evidence that sources more reliable than Google largely prefer the older name, but I haven't seen any presented here. —Twice Nothing (talk) 23:49, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Support Turkmenbashi, Turkmenistan as the most common spelling in English sources. There's quite a bit of disruptive editing going on here, but the common name in contemporary English sources is clearly not Krasnovodsk. User:力 (power~enwiki,  π,  ν ) 03:39, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, this is a procedural request to revert an out-of-process move by a disruptive user. The status quo ante spelling of Türkmenbaşy must be retained; if I (or anyone else) wants a different romanization it must be in a follow-up request. User:力 (power~enwiki,  π,  ν ) 03:53, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Is there any reason to wait the nominal week for reverting the improper page moves? --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 14:00, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I see no reason to wait. Any further vandalism in response to a move would justify a block from even an involved admin. User:力 (power~enwiki,  π,  ν ) 02:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, I've moved the other articles, but this one's a loop of confusing redirects -- are you any good at complicated moves? --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 02:39, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I think you need to delete the revision history at Türkmenbaşy, Turkmenistan and then do a normal move. The only history is cruft, there's nothing that needs to be kept for attribution. User:力 (power~enwiki,  π,  ν ) 03:04, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I can't delete a page with redirect history, but I can banish it to the nether realms. Move done. User:力 (power~enwiki,  π,  ν ) 03:11, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Support per Twice Nothing and even just a google search for news relating to this city, and even if we were dealing with official names, many official documents such as this one from the State Committee on Statistics of Turkmenistan mention Türkmenbaşy, and specifically this city in the Balkan Region. (Also support a move to Turkmenbashi, Turkmenistan afterwards per 力 and WP:UE, for the record.) But outside of that, some notes that others haven't brought up yet: In cases like this, the WP:ONUS is on you, as the person who made changes to information against the status quo, to prove and verify your claims. Also, Hyperx seems to have purged all mention of Türkmenbaşy from the geographical articles Gulf of Krasnovodsk and Krasnovodsk Peninsula as well, and those should be renamed as well (?) Thanks,  ev iolite   (talk)  03:09, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Further discussion and sources for current name
The official name of the city was always Krasnovodsk. It has never been known by any other name, even in the modern era. --Hyperx1000 (talk) 23:52, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Please, give us some context. Is it just a myth that Niyazov renamed the place? Is every other source wrong about that? Did it not happen? Did the official name of the city not become that? --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 04:46, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Are there any official records stating that Niyazov renamed the place? Even if there are, the official name of the city has never changed. --Hyperx1000 (talk) 20:08, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Says who? --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 21:36, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * And what is that supposed to mean? --Hyperx1000 (talk) 21:42, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You have yet to provide a single source, let alone a single reliable source, to support your position. So: says who? --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 21:48, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia's goal is to provide free information for readers. If this article is vandalized, anyone who views it will not know the name of the city. That is against Wikipedia's objective, because information that needs to be available to the article's readers is being suppressed. The previous section of this talk page exists only to gather support for causing damage to the article. --Hyperx1000 (talk) 22:18, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'd be entirely happy to see this actually be true; Niyazov was awful and his insane legacy should be completely dismantled, but I don't see any evidence it has been, in this regard. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 22:02, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If you hate Niyazov that much, wouldn't you want to help dismantle his legacy by keeping the existing name of the article and opposing the move? It's your choice. --Hyperx1000 (talk) 22:24, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'd like to do so. So provide a reliable source supporting your position. The WP:ONUS is on you to provide sources supporting the changes you made to the article. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 22:36, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * All of the sources that I found derived their information from previous versions of this article. If you oppose the edit, you can erase Niyazov's legacy. --Hyperx1000 (talk) 22:55, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You provided no sources, and you've gained no WP:CONSENSUS. I'll give this more time, but as it stands, you should step back and let other people continue the discussion. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 23:50, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There are no sources supporting the move, either. —-Hyperx1000 (talk) 00:09, 4 September 2021 (UTC)


 * This https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/946184/Turkmenistan_factfile.pdf document contains all the renamed cities in Turkmenistan. I think PCGN UK a reputable source. --188.119.120.61 (talk) 03:22, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You’re using the same source that vandal used when he destroyed several articles. There is a paragraph about how you are not letting the article’s readers have access to the city’s name. —-Hyperx1000 (talk) 04:47, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There was no WP:VANDALISM. Content disputes are not vandalism. You made unsourced changes; the IP rightfully reverted those changes. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 04:53, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The other name can simply be added instead of an entire page move. —-Hyperx1000 (talk) 05:02, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

The user Hyperx1000 is completely inadequate. It needs to be blocked from editing. He corrects the name of the city everywhere, which has not existed since 1993. The city was renamed by the decree of the Parliament of Turkmenistan, there is a corresponding legislative act. --188.119.120.61 (talk) 06:57, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Can you provide the source for the legislative act? Are you claiming the city has not existed since 1993? The reason I corrected the name of the city was because I could not find any evidence stating that it was renamed. --Hyperx1000 (talk) 13:10, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Изменения_географических_названий_в_Туркменистане


 * 8 October 1993, Resolution No. 904-XII, the city of Krasnowodsk (Soviet Russian spelling Красноводск) is renamed Türkmenbaşy. Page 20 of this document. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 21:47, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * For those readers who (like me) rely on Google Translate, but have issues with the poor OCR on this document:

"Постановление Меджлиса Туркменистана

102. О переименовании города Красноводска Балканского велаята

Учитывая обращения трудовых коллективов и общественных организаций города Красноводска, ходатайство хякимлика Балканского велаята, Халк маслахаты Туркменистана и Меджлис Туркменисгана постановляют:

переименовать город Красноводск Балканского велаята, присвоив ему имя Президента Туркменистана Сапармурата Туркменбаши, и виредь именовать его: «Город Туркменбаши Балканского велаята».

Председатель Меджлиса Туркменистана С.Мурадов Город Ашгабат. 8 октября 1993 г. № 904-XII"
 * —Twice Nothing (talk) 01:16, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Stop the proposed edit
This type of poll for a disruptive edit also appeared at the talk page for the city’s airport. It was closed and this one should be too. The current name of the article is the more widely known name, and you cannot change the facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by user:Hyperx1000 (talk • contribs)
 * the RM on the airport was caused by a disruptive IP, not me. They copied it from here, including my signature.  dud  hhr  Contribs 14:58, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * fix ping  dud  hhr  Contribs 14:59, 4 September 2021 (UTC)