Talk:Tōya Station (Tōyako)

Move?

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was the consensus is to move. --PBS (talk) 18:10, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Tōya Station (Tōyako, Hokkaidō) → Tōya Station (Tōyako) &mdash;
 * Move over redirect. Per same logic for moving page Tōyako, Hokkaidō. — YeshuaDavid  •  Talk  • 00:01, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * But Tōyako, Hokkaidō was not moved: see Talk:Tōyako, Hokkaidō. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose, as there are two stations named Tōya Station in Hokkaido - hence the need for disambiguation. --DAJF (talk) 00:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but there's only one in Tōyako, so the proposed name would be unambiguous as well. Jafeluv (talk) 08:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose support — (note that MOS_JP has been clarified) I can see where YeshuaDavid is coming from here, but again there's Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) and so DAJF is right to contest this. — V = I * R  (talk) 06:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, someone just moved this in apparent total disregard of the conversations ongoing here... :( — V = I * R  (talk) 15:48, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I moved it back. It's probably a good idea to wait until this discussion is over before moving. Jafeluv (talk) 08:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it wasn't in total disregard for the conversation here, so please assume a little good faith. There's no reason to even have the discussion as this is a totally unambiguous move. There are no other Tōya Stations in Tōyako, and having "Hokkaidō" in the title is completely unnecessary. It's completely common sense for it to be at Tōya Station (Tōyako). This discussion is pointless and a waste of time. ··· 日本穣 ? ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe 12:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see how saying that you "probably just didn't notice" that there was already a discussion on the talk page is assuming bad faith on your part. I thought it was simply a coincidence that you moved it at the same time. (never mind, you weren't talking to me) Considering that there were already two opposes at the time of your move, and only the nominator and yourself supported it, it should be pretty obvious that the move isn't totally uncontroversial. Jafeluv (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I wanted to add that, you might be absolutely correct, but you're certainly not an uninvolved bystander, and attempting to take unilateral action doesn't exactly inspire a desire to take your position on this at face value. — V = I * R  (talk) 22:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How am I not an uninvolved bystander? I've never edited this article until now, nor have I edited the talk page until my comment above. There is no reason to discuss the issue as Tōya Station (Tōyako) is not only a shorter title, but it clearly disambiguates from the only other Tōya Station in Hokkaidō. Articles titles should be as short as possible to be clear about their subject. WP:TITLE states (emphasis added):
 * "Name an article as precisely as is necessary to indicate accurately its topical scope; avoid over-precision."
 * DAJF is incorrect in his opinion above as the "Tōya Station (Tōyako)" and "Tōya Station (Kushiro)" titles are perfectly able to disambiguate the stations without the completely unnecessary ", Hokkaidō" tacked onto them. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to take your word for it, but could you please go and update Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) to reflect that position? It's not clear to me, and it's obviously not clear to DAJF, that the guidelines are consistent, here. — V = I * R  (talk) 04:04, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. We need to abide by WP:TITLE as much as possible, and it very clearly states to avoid over-precision. WP:MOS-JA is now clarified to make that compliance more obvious. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Support as nominator I admit I hadn't looked at the Japanese guidelines before I suggested this move, but I still think this is a case where a common sense move would be appropriate. As DAJF points out, there are two stations called "Tōya Station" in Hokkaidō, but only one of that name in Tōyako, so "Tōya Station (Tōyako)" would appear to be a perfectly clear means of disambiguation. YeshuaDavid  •  Talk  • 11:40, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Current standard is Y Station → Y Station (Prefecture) → Y Station (Prefecture, City). See WP:MOS-JP.
 * Then "Tōya Station (Hokkaidō, Tōyako)" and "Tōya Station (Hokkaidō, Kushiro)" should be used.
 * However I prefer United States' practice which seemed to be Y Station → Y Station (City) → Y Station (City, State).
 * Someone seems to be pushing his/her own POV on station names in United States. See below.


 * Union Station (Toronto)
 * Union Station (Chicago)
 * Union Station (Denver, Colorado)	moved from Union Station (Denver) on 18 August 2009 by User:Doncram
 * Union Station (Kansas City, Missouri)  moved from Union Station (Kansas City) on 23 August 2009 by User:Doncram	( my comment: cf Kansas City, Kansas although no Union Station in Kansas City, Kansas)
 * Union Station (Los Angeles, California) moved from Union Station (Los Angeles) on 18 August 2009 by User:Doncram	"use (City, State) disambiguating phrase, which is more or less a standard, i believe, for NRHP-listed places and other buildings"
 * Union Station (Pittsburgh)
 * Union Station (Washington, D.C.)
 * ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 06:57, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The Union Station issue arises from two related issues. 1) there are many duplicate names for train stations in the US, and 2) There is a minor conflict between the US Wikiproject and the Register of Historic Places Wikiproject. This is one area where the standards of each group (historic vs. modern names) is often contradictory.
 * Anyway, hopefully you can see that it's not a completely analogous situation to this. As I was saying to above, I honestly don't care what standard that we try to adhere to, as long as it's understandable, fairly uncontroversial (people making WP:POINTy movereqs in the middle of an attempt to change the relevant guidelines is definately something to be discouraged), and clear. I'd like to encourage participants in these movereqs to take the opportunity to at least skim through, and if able to copy edit and clarify, the naming convention guidelines which affect the movereqs that are being listed. —  V = I * R  (talk) 07:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I checked all the station names listed on List of railway stations in Japan, and found all the first level disambiguation conforms to Y Station (Prefecture). However all the second level disambiguation does not conform to Y Station (Prefecture, City), instead, Y Station (City, Prefecture) is used except one station name.  So, I think WP:MOS-JP should be revised to Y Station → Y Station (Prefecture) → Y Station (City, Prefecture).  Then, "Tōya Station (Tōyako, Hokkaidō)" and "Tōya Station (Kushiro, Hokkaidō)" should be used.

List of second level disambiguation.

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 04:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Support as WP:MOS-JA was not clear enough in how Japan-related article titles such as this needed to follow WP:TITLE. This issue has been remedied, and as it states in WP:TITLE (and now WP:MOS-JA), the title should be titled "as precisely as is necessary to indicate accurately its topical scope", which would indicate "Tōya Station (Tōyako)" would be the title with enough disambiguation while avoiding over-precision. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.