Talk:T.A.T.u./Archive 1

Relevance of gossip
Do we really need the latest gossip on t.A.T.u. or their publicity stunts here (ie. the addition that they said they would marry)? -- Kimiko 21:27 May 2,2003 (UTC)


 * Heh, that's funny. :) That's a good enough reason in my book to keep it. But seriously, if it's verifiably true and all that, I see no reason not to include it. It offers some insight into how they wish to be perceived in public, for one thing... -- Oliver P. 23:28 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

Okay, but it gives only one data point then. If you want to give insight into how they want to be perceived, a list of their most outrageous statements might be more useful. BTW, I couldn't find anything about them getting married on the official or semi-official sites, so I think it still qualifies as mere gossip. -- Kimiko 08:41 May 3, 2003 (UTC)


 * It is not gossip, if you look on MSN news it is there. IMO this is a clever way of winning it, ppl will be voting them just so they wil get married not becuase of teh song. -fonzy. Here is the the small article:

"Preferably in Germany", eh? Germany doesn't even have same-sex marriages. Besides, both are Russian citizens AFAIK, so it wouldn't be legal anyway. Oh well, as long as their music doesn't start boring me I don't care much what nonsense they tell the media. -- Kimiko 15:35 May 3, 2003 (UTC)


 * Germany has same-sex partnerships which are equivalent. --Eloquence 21:37 26 May 2003 (UTC)

Partnerships are not marriages. See also civil union. -- Kimiko 23:31 26 May 2003 (UTC)

It was a tabloid invention - Yulia joked about the rumour in an interview with the New Yorker. I deleted it since it wasn't true. simon_d 23.56 Sat 4 Dec 2004

Deleted text
Eloquence wrote: "-strange claim about fans". Why did you remove that? It is true that the girls' orientation is still a topic of much discussion among fans. Just look around in the chat areas of the various fan sites (see links at the end of the article). Many people who post there are themselves lesbian/gay/bi and would like to see the group as their idols (lesbian that is). I think this is a valid and meaningful point to mention in this article. -- Kimiko 21:28 26 May 2003 (UTC)


 * Show me statistics. This is a huge pop group. Gays are about 5-10% of the population by generous estimates. Yes, an openly lesbian group probably attracts more openly bi/gay fans than one which is not. This is so obvious as to be irrelevant. But a phrase like "As many of the group's fans are themselves teenage lesbian and bisexual girls" reads like there is a huge teenage lesbian/bi following, which is highly questionable, especially as many teenagers are not yet certain about their sexual orientation.--Eloquence 21:36 26 May 2003 (UTC)

You are right, it is somewhat obvious. Given their musical style, age and video material, they would probably attract more younger (teenage or a little older) people. Given their hinting at a lesbian relationship, they would probably attract more lesbian/gay/bi people. Given that minority groups like to identify with famous people who also belong to that group, and that t.A.T.u. still haven't come out one way or another, there would probably be a lot of discussion/speculation among lesbian/gay/bi fans. The suggestion that they have a huge lesbian/bi following is indeed a bit overstated. -- Kimiko 23:31 26 May 2003 (UTC)

Gays are 2% of the population, not 5, certainly not 10 as the left would like everyone to believe, not that it even matters. Politician818 03:08, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Those are estimates. First - since they are estimates and not direct counts, of course you can only verify a portion of it. Especially since some gays will never "come out" because of the social stigma.


 * Additionally, semantics comes in. You say "gays"; I have to assume then that the numbers you've looked at only applied to homosexuals. The other posters (as well as, in my experience, the survey(s) that the "5%" quote come from) are saying "lesbian/gay/bi", ie they include bisexuals. If you include bisexuals (as most of these surveys do, and as every other poster has done here before you) as being part of the same group, well of course the numbers of that group are going to go up, because bisexuality and homosexuality are two different orientations by their very definitions, bisexuals do account for more than 0% of the population, and I also suspect that more people count themselves as bi than homosexual because it would make sense, as it's harder to reproduce if you're only attracted to the same sex (and we all know most humans are programmed to eventually want children, right?), and because bisexuality has slightly less of a stigma on it in Western society than straight (no pun intended) homosexuality does. In any case, because there are obviously more than 0% bisexual people in the population, if you include them in the same group as gays, of course, again, the number is going to go up a little. Probably not by 8%, mind, but I could see 2-3 percentage points, especially considering that "bisexual" covers a much broader spectrum of behavior than "homosexual" does, ranging from "slight preference of one over the other" to "no preference either way" to "almost exclusively attracted to one or the other, but open to relationships with the opposite of their usual preference", so people who include bisexuals in their "5%" figures probably aren't stretching it too much.


 * Additionally complicating matters, though, is the criteria of any study. For instance, I'm no longer actively attracted to males myself, but not only was I once attracted to males, I didn't even begin to be attracted to women until my teens. I identify as a lesbian, yet I used to be attracted to males. So depending on the study's definitions, I would qualify as either lesbian or bi. Most studies seem to only ask how a person identifies, and I know a lot of people (myself included, for a few years) who don't want to identify as completely homosexual because of the stigma or because they aren't used to feeling attracted to the same sex, or any number of other related reasons, so they identify as bisexual instead. I even know of some people who even apply the label heteroflexible to describe themselves as primarily heterosexual, but open to potential relationships with members of the same sex. So, do we classify them as "heterosexual but open-minded", or "bisexual"? And then there's homoflexible, which is really "bisexual" with a lean towards the other extreme.


 * This is why I rarely trust numbers from unnamed surveys or surveys that are quoted but not explained. Sexuality is so complex, and so potentially fluid and changing, that unless you're explaining how you get your numbers, as far as I'm concerned, they're nothing more than rough guesses. Runa27 18:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Two points
Two points;
 * 1) Fonzy added: Rumours after the contest had gone around, that the duo will split up, due to entering the contest, wich is considerd by some not to be "cool". I'm not sure what this means. I've reworded it in the article, but I'm not sure I've preserved the sense. In any case, it's probably best not to include unattributed rumours. If some newspaper has printed a story about it, for example, you could cite that. All I can find on the Web is a teenmusic.com article ("Tatu To Split?", dated May 27, 2003) which mentions "negative reaction" and a complaint about people focusing on their private lives(!), but doesn't give Eurovision as a reason.
 * 2) User:198.81.26.111 added "but, they also enjoy partners of the opposite sex" with the edit comment, "this is true dude, they said it on maxim hot 100 last night". So, a statement with a reference! But it was removed soon afterwards. I think that quotations with references are better than speculation, so shouldn't this go back in? -- Oliver P. 14:44 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * There have always been split rumours, so I added that info to put the latest rumour in context. Anyway, the rumours themselves may be unattributed, but it is objective fact that they exist.
 * The girls themselves are probably the least reliable source of info. I think it would be best to leave it as it is, just saying there is much speculation, otherwise what is supposed to be an authoritative reference will end up looking like the standard "are they really lesbians" newbie thread in one of their forums.
 * PS4FA 09:55 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Questionable text
I did a google search for "julia volkova television danish" and it gave nothing to verify the following paragraph: "On a Danish children's television show Julia Volkova appeared to have sex with a juvenile until she balked and asked the male child to stop."

I did check out some of the hits and the Tatu Forum1 questions the integrity of these exact comments. A link was posted to an MTV article on this 2 and suggests that something similar happened on a German childrens' show. From a little more digging, it seems the show might have been Interaktiv on German music channel, VIVA.

Anyway, I have taken the liberty of removing this text for now; I challenge someone to find the definite set of circumstances and prove it.

SimonMayer 03:48 Tue 17 Feb 2004

"Their image was none other than teenage lesbianism meant for "straight male entertainment", as confirmed by former manager Ivan Shapovalov." Where is this confirmed by Shapovalov. All the media I have read with him says nothing of the sort. I've removed this until it has a reference. Also, what does "underage" mean? User:Lofichic 20:52 25/11/06

Out-of-date info
This article was seriously dated - they admitted they weren't lesbians a year ago! I've updated it, removed the false rumours - like them changing their name to Tema, which was a hoax by a Russian pop group called Tema to get publicity - and tried to generally make the article more accurate. User: simon_d 00:18 Sun 5 Dec 2004 They never said they were lesbians though, that was only ever propagated by the press... If you look at every single interview with them, they state - "We love each other..." Not the same

Spelling of song name
Just to explain, my last revert (about spelling) was based simply on Google hits, I do not speak Russian and am not even particularly knowledgeable about t.A.T.u, but unless someone can prove it should be otherwise, I think it should stand as it is:


 * "Prostye Dvizheniya" - 2,610 hits
 * "Prostye Dvizhenya" - 165 hits
 * "Prostiye Dvizheniya" - 112 hits
 * "Prostiye Dvizhenya" - 13 hits

- Lawlore 02:25, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

Eurovision lose end
Since the group is apparently coming back into the limelight this autumn, would this be a suitable time to clear up the lose end of the disputed Eurovision 2003 result? Does anyone know what Eurovsion did about the official complaint from the participating Russian TV channel about the Nil points voting from two countries that stopped what was looking like a certain win for the group? Yes, both Ireland and the UK (the last country to vote) gave them NIL points See detailed results, despite the group being pop hits in both countries (a UK number 1). Every other country gave them votes. Tatu ended with 164 points against the winner's 167. Whilst the Wikipedia article on Eurovision says that Ireland's weird vote was due to the backup jury providing the result (which was hidden from Irish viewer/voters until complaints led to the telephone company going public to preserve it's reputation as a voting medium), what is missing is that the same happened in the UK.

The telephone vote in the UK was, according to the public enquiry office of the BBC (UK sponsoring channel) "delayed", so a nominated jury vote was substituted, giving no votes to the biggest musical name in the contest (and, it should be remembered a highly controversial act, booed by homophobic elements in the audience in the concert venue, and televised with incredible caution - every single time the two moved within touching distance of each other the view switch to super-wide, quite obviously just in case the kissed or something terrible - remember we were told that the dress-rehearsal has been taped for showing in case the group did something "unacceptable"). This was never publicly stated, and of course the Zero score of the UK entry rather distracted attention. However, this page claims to have the UK vote figures. Which, if they were true would be incredibly out of step with all other countries. Many of the acts that supposedly received more votes from Britsih telephone voters than Russia's were truly terrible, yet a week later the group's new single Not Gonna Get Us, debuted at 7th in the UK chart. A cover-up which was never investigated? The final safety move to ensure the families of Europe didn't see a pair of normally attractive "lesbians" kiss in celebration of winning? Does this deserve some mention?--Bluegreen 09:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I would think so, but are you sure about the UK, I know RTÉ definetly used judges (which I am personally very angry about as I am in Ireland and voted for Russia), but are you sure about UK? - Gerbon689


 * Sorry to be so slow responding. It was what I was told by the BBC's Duty Office phone service that night, when I complained about the coverage. After saying that I had to understand that not every country was as "liberal" towards homosexuality as the UK (!), they volunteered that a jury decision had been substituted in the UK too, which they repeated when I asked if they were mixing it up with the Irish result. I'm still seeking the phone company that did the UK vote for total confirmation. I thought for a while that the (reputed) official Russian complaint would bring the information out, but Eurovision seems to have ignored that.--Bluegreen

I have changed the statement that the girls would have won Eurovision were it not for the Irish technical hitch: this seems POV unless there is solid evidence for this. Edited it to make it a claim. --Neil Woodward 04:56, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Простые Движения

Люди-Инвалиды (Lyudi-Invalidi/Handicapped People).
"This song is from t.A.T.u.'s second Russian album, Люди-Инвалиды (Lyudi-Invalidi/Handicapped People)." Is this a good translation? From the little knowledge I know, in Russian it doesn't make you think of wheelchairs and crutches.


 * Disabled people - it means more of a mentaly disabled...as in not being able to love or live in society, not like mentaly retarded, but psychopathic? this help? -- 206.176.81.104

It's Invalid People form what I've been told. This title sounds a lot better. Daryn 3 January 2005 @ 22:29


 * No, it is not. As a native speaker of Russian I can say that the word means 'disabled people'. Somebody had poorly translated it in English ('invalidy' sounds very similar to 'invalid') and it was published like this in the media. So to save face they probably invented the dubious explanation mentioned earlier. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.199.22.199 (talk • contribs) 18:02, February 5, 2006 (UTC)

Russian and Caucasian?
"Volkova didn't stay single for long - while recording a new album for t.A.T.u. she started going out with a businessman living in Los Angeles named Tigran, who is of Russian and Caucasian descent."

What does that mean? I don't get it. Is it saying like Russian and white(Huh?) or like Russian and somewhere vaguely by Georgia, Russia(?), Azerbaijan, Armenia, etc? 64.231.170.126 04:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I assume it means he is descended from Russia and from people coming from the Caucasus. A bit vague, yes, but perfectly clear. (Except to the geographically illiterate, but you don't seem to fall into that category.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.136.123.112 (talk • contribs) 23:58, March 17, 2006 (UTC)
 * You are right in your explanation, but the quotation is far from being clear to most Americans. The term Caucasian for an American refers primarily to a Caucasian race. Nothing illiterate about it.

Commentary on All The Things She Said
The second paragraph under "Public image and international success" is. . . strange. What is the purpose of this paragraph? The paragraph should be reworked to more accurately reflect this purpose (whatever it is). It is not clear how relating--and interpreting!--the content of the music video says anything at all about their public image and international success. Rljacobson 23:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Search term "tatu", why disambiguation page redirection?
If someone searches in the search box, entering "tatu", I believe there's a 90% chance someone is looking for t.A.T.u. Let's redirect the search here, and add an entry on the article's page to the disambig page. --Shandris 08:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Phew,,, after a long time of redirection hell, I've finally managed it to redirect here. Everything should work fine now. -- Shandris 21:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Removing pictures
Where did the picture of the two girls in Catholic school uniforms go? I enjoy seeing that picture, lol. Was there a copyright reason for that? Politician818 03:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC) Also, if the girl's last name is Volkova, then I think that her father's name is better spelled Volkoff than Volkov. In English speaking counries, we spell it with a "v" at the end, like with the Romanov royal family. However, the better spelling is Romanoff or Volkoff. Can somebody verify that? Politician818 17:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Missing Images
Who removed all the photos? I remeber there were at least 3 in the article. Can someone provide images with valid sources, please? Shandristhe azylean 17:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, and people need to stop erasing photos from the table about them. I've seen at least 50 photos and the next day they're gone. Whoever's done that, f**k them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tfaatnu (talk • contribs) 23:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

languages
Out of curiousity, why does the Russian for the song or album names often come first in this article (sometimes without translation). This is the English wikipedia, so the English names should come first, followed by the Russian and/or transliteration in parentheses. I would expect that the majority of readers of this article do not read Russian and will but put off by it. Liamdaly620 01:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Cause that's the real name of the songs, as the duo themselves decided. Some have been translated and made into English-version songs on the English album Dangerous and Moving, this article is about the Russian album. Original name comes first, translations are not "the real thing", they're just a guide to people who don't understand. For your information, ALL song names in Russian have been translated, if we've missed something, don't hesitate to tell me where. Shandristhe azylean 02:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I never said the English is the "real thing." What I said was that the English should come first since this is the English Wikipedia. By your logic, the Parthenon should be at Παρθενώνας, Kiev should be at Київ, and the film "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" should be at "Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo", since those are the "real names." However, they aren't, they are at the English translation/transliteration. It's just my opinion, but I think the article would be easier to read for a non-Russian reader if English were to come first. As for parts that aren't translated, I see "200 по встречной," "t.A.T.u. Podnebesnaya" is transliterated but I have no idea what Podnebesnaya means, and "Я сошла с ума," which is translated as part of the dentist's dream, but I would do it again when it is first mentioned as a song name. Liamdaly620 14:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments, Liam =P Well, city and film names have gotten international names/titles, they have become so common that they have become internationalized, and people use the local language form there, whereas these songs haven't been established yet, and for your information, if one refers to the Russian version of "All the Things She Said", you use the Russian name: Ya soshla s uma, "I've lost my mind" (I've gone nuts/crazy; notice, "soshla" is in feminine form meaning it's a girl saying it; a masculine form would be: Ya soshol s uma). The Russian songs must be separated from the English ones, the translation is just a help. "200 po vstrechnoi" means, hopefully you could've guessed "200 km/h in the wrong lane", or (124.7 miles per hour in the wrong lane). "Podnebesnaya" is somekind of show t.A.T.u. performed at many times. It means "[something] under the sky", I think that show is performed "under the sky" or something, that is, the scene isn't covered. Thanks for all, Shandristhe azylean 15:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The song names should be in English. And most definitely transliterated at the very least. Providing names only in Russian characters in an English article is pointless.

t.A.T.u., not the girls per se
If you remove the info about them, then at least add it to their pages. These girls are very close to each other and started t.A.T.u. together, how they mutually became t.A.T.u. is also important... Stop removing vital information. Shandristhe azylean 14:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The information is already on their pages. They might be very close together, but that information is NOT vital for t.A.T.u. Their lives are seperate from the group. --Fortyfeet 22:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Second sentence doesn't make sense
The group was formed in 1999 by their former producer, Ivan Shapovalov, until they fired him. When a band is formed it's formed; it's not formed until something else happens. Anchoress 02:56, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have re-worded it so it makes more sense. --Fortyfeet 18:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair use images
I've removed three non-fair use images, and there are two more that are questionable but I don't want to give anyone a hissy fit. Please review Fair use: A copyrighted image must meet quite strict requirements before it is used, these are all decorative only. 152.91.9.144 04:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

FHM cover
Actually I think it is fair use to include it in this article. The section is talking about the FHM cover after all. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 08:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The FHM cover is totally fine. There's just this one person who keeps adding a scan from the article for the main photo and it's really pissing me off. Fortyfeet 23:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

It must loose something in the translation (I'm not an expert of any language that functions outside a computer). It could be that these two artists are looking for ambiguous emotional validity. In other words, by calling a work "invalid people" in Russian is in some way suggesting that we should sympathize with people we know nothing about.

Bottom Line: Artistic License.

Ambiguous Meanings
It must loose something in the translation (I'm not an expert of any language that functions outside a computer). It could be that these two artists are looking for ambiguous emotional validity. In other words, by calling a work "invalid people" in Russian is in some way suggesting that we should sympathize with people we know nothing about.

Bottom Line: Artistic License.

Foreign Language / Fansite External Links
A few IP address users (likely the same person) keeps adding foreign language / fansite links to this article. Please review Wikipedia's foreign language link policy and Wikipedia's Links to be avoided policy. You will note that foreign language links and fansites that do not provide unique resources to an article are not to be included in an article. -NatureBoyMD 04:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Young and beautiful 05.jpg
Image:Young and beautiful 05.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 19:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Other
I'm lost. So Yulia fell in love with a girl while she was with long time boyfriend? Or? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.95.204.85 (talk • contribs) 02:52, January 27, 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused. How did Yulia announce that she was pregnant in May, and then get a miscarriage in February, if it was supposed to happen in the same year? Or did she announce the miscarriage only in May? -- Mydemand

She didn't have a miscarriage in February 2004, as the article seemed to say, she had an abortion in February 2003. I corrected it. Simon d 11:43, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Invalid people"
Люди-Инвалиды (Lyudi-invalidy) means invalid people in russian. but it pretty much means people who don't love or care about anything.


 * This song is from t.A.T.u.'s forthcoming second Russian album, Люди-Инвалиды (Lyudi-Invalidi/Invalid People)...

I'm a native speaker of English, and this sounds like "People who are not valid", which doesn't make much sense.

I think it's supposed to be more like "Sick People" -- would a native Russian speaker please, well, speak up? -- Bushing 06:09, 5 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I strongly doubt it. From the way it's been described on their website, Sick people doesn't fit. Invalid is the closest that works. See this
 * I am a native speaker of Russian. The word in question means 'disabled' and nothing beyond this. It seems to me their explanation is a weak cover-up for poor translation that had been already used in the media and couldn't be changed :)

I believe they said once that they were not making fun of handicapped people, but they meant that everyone has their own bad habbits or personality traits, so they really meant un-perfect people. That's what I think! :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ScreamFlyDream (talk • contribs) 15:00, February 6, 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the exact translation would be Unabled People, i.e. people who do not have the necessary strength or will to achieve something, people who aren't made for a specific task, I think that's what they meant. Shandris 20:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The intention of the title within the Russian context is to discuss the sickness of people, as in their fear of love and other people, rather than disabilities as we construct them in English.

Initial capital letter
This is one case when having the first letter capitalised is annyoing. I think there needs to be some kind of sysop overwrite feature. -fonzy

Just to be sure
"Katina once said in an interview that this lesbianism was 'no image', while Katina had acknowledged in earlier interviews that it was an obligation." - the wording of this sentence makes me think that on of the 'Katrinas' should be in fact Julia. I don't know, but just in case, I am writing it here for the author to know. Chjoodge 10:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Lyudi Invalidy
The official way to say it is "Disabled People". The title alone sounds like handicapped, such as people you'd see in weelchairs or using crutches, but the rest of the song's lyrics give a bit more insight into what the title is supposed to convey. So just leave the title alone :). It's correct how it is. --Talyubittu 10:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC) --24.220.5.150 13:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and it's spelled Ludi Invalidi. I should know, I have The Best CD and that's how it's spelled.