Talk:TDI Vector

Nyon, Switzerland
Further to the infobox are we sure the place of origin is not Washington, DC ?? Transformational Defense Industries is in Washington not Nyon. PianoKeys 15:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The country of origin is Switzerland. Look it up.--Asams10 18:45, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That is the Principal corporation, the subsidiary that makes the weapon is in Washington. I think it should state Washington, not Nyon. It would be like stating Coca-Cola manufactured in Switzerland, is actually manufactured in the USofA because Coke's head office is there. In this case, it is a completely separate corporation. PianoKeys 10:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe you're not looking at what it says. It says, "Place of Origin" and that is, indeed, Switzerland.  I don't really understand why you don't want to list the place of origin as the actual place of origin.  What's your agenda?--Asams10 15:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Colt's Manufacturing Company the parent company is correctly in Category:Firearms manufacturers in the United States the subsidiary Colt Canada is correctly in Category:Firearms manufacturers in Canada... now what is your agenda?? PianoKeys 18:51, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It would appear based on the official website that the design and manufacture of the prototype took place in the United States, not in Switzerland. I'll keep looking into it.--LWF 18:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * FWIW: The inventors of the operating system live in Nyon, Switzerland according to the US patent. It is US Patent #7,201,094. D.E. Watters 18:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The INVESTORS live in Switzerland. TDI was/is partially owned and operated by Gamma, a Swiss Company. The Kriss Super V system, however, was developed and patented in the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.183.136.215 (talk) 12:49, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Per, it appears the guns are actually manufactured in Virginia Beach, Virginia, with the corporate subsidiary moving its headquarters there while the corporate parent remains in Switzerland. The Literate Engineer (talk) 01:09, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Correct. All of the KRISS line of firearms are manufactured in Virginia Beach Virginia. Before the company was renamed 'KRISS USA', it was Transformational Defense Industries (TDI). The management team used to have an office on K Street in Washington D.C. while the factory remained at Virginia Beach. The office in D.C. is now closed and both management and manufacturing are at the same facility Virginia Beach.

The parent company, Gamma Research owns KRISS USA, KRISS Systems (in Nyon) and now, owns Sphinx Systems Ltd. - a high-end Swiss pistol manufacturer. KRISSEnthusiast (talk) 13:49, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

RPMs?
Any info on the Kriss's firerate?

Yes. I was told that its rate of fire is about 1500 rounds a minute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.98.27 (talk) 17:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeaaa considering the Mg42 and the PPsH-41 only had around 1200 and 900 respectivly i highly dought that, id give mayby 600 at best(ForeverDEAD 00:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC))

ForeverDEAD. I am afriad your wrong. The prototype of the Kriss does fire 1500 rounds a minute. However Thats just the prototype. If it enters military service they will likely modify it to give it a slower rate of fire.74.183.202.229 (talk) 02:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)13tawaazun14

Nominally, the KRISS Vector as of June 2011 has a firing rate somewhere between 1100 - 1200 rounds per minute. Feedback suggests operators want to slow the firing rate down to between 800 - 900 RPM. KRISSEnthusiast (talk) 13:51, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

The Kriss prototype could fire at 1500 rpm, but they tailored it back to 1100 rpm to enhance reliability. Refer to http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=HK#/watch?v=pnKd6iXHTQg. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.119.247.205 (talk) 13:58, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

When in service?
Does any one know when this would go into service with the US military or even if it will?74.183.202.229 (talk) 02:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)13tawaazun14


 * This isn't a discussion forum... The answer is never, BTW. --Asams10 (talk) 00:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The KRISS is currently being tested by several branches of the U.S. Military, but is gaining the most popularity amongst Law Enforcement.

Forgive me, but I just wished to know more about the history of the project as well as it's planned future, if it has one. I can't seem to find much information on the project.74.183.202.229 (talk) 02:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)13Tawaazun14


 * It's a prototype that the company is trying to sell, however there are few buyers. It might be tried by US Special Forces, but the concept of a submachine gun essentially died with the widespread use of body armor.  Had the gun came out in the early 1930's, it'd have been the best thing eVAR, however it's simply too little, too late. --Asams10 (talk) 04:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I seem to recall reading that the company was planning on scaling up the system for larger cartridges, but that remains speculation.--LWF (talk) 06:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Guess I missed this comment when you made it. Yes, they are planning on scaling it up to 12ga and .50 BMG.  There are balanced recoil systems on the market now... the Counterpoise system for the M16 and the AN94 Russian rifle.  Both are more complicated than a few hundred rounds of trigger time necessary to use an automatic weapon effectively... My opinion, but interesting nonetheless.  I'll admit that the idea of having TWO counterweights that completely negate the effect of recoiling parts creating separate implulses intrigues me.  I think the .50 cal is going this way.  Simpler than other systems, it'll be years before anything comes of this I believe.  We'll see. --Asams10 (talk) 22:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Several things here. As of June 2011, the KRISS Vector is not in service with any military units. Their primary market is civilian sales of their carbine and pistol models and to a lesser extent, sales of their NFA weapon their short-barreled rifle. Civilian sales is then followed in volume by law enforcement sales. The speculation is that KRISS desires to eventually become mil-spec and sell to the U.S. Military, possibly special forces in a bid to replace the MP-5 with a similar size and recoil weapon - but one that shoots .45 ACP. Further sales options should be avilable to all markets once the Vector line is made in 9mm and .40 S&W. KRISSEnthusiast (talk) 13:56, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

XSMG
This article is about the XSMG, it should be included in the name of the article. Asams10 has moved it incorrectly dropping of the XSMG portion of the name. 16:39, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is the article at the product homepage, note the name they use: KRISS Super V XSMG] In the case of Wikipedia, we note the manufacturer's acronyn first, in this case TDI making the article title:  TDI KRISS Super V XSMG Chessy999 19:22, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Once again, there is no such thing as an XSMG. "TDI" is the name of the company, so what is "KRISS", what is "Super", "V", and "XSMG"?  They are all hype and gibberish, that's what they are.  Think "Rhino Ammo" that was ALL hype?  The title of this article is all hype too.  --Asams10 00:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Read the companies website, it is all described at that location. In addition, before moving an established article, build a consensus on the article's talk page first to avoid this type of issue. Chessy999 00:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Supposedly KRISS comes from kris, and at least according to their website, KRISS Super V is the operating system, and the XSMG is a specific gun that uses said operating system. Makes me wonder why they insist on using the name of the operating system in the name of the gun, instead of calling it the TDI XSMG.--LWF 00:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * That is the name used by the manufacturer for the firearm, listen to the name usage in the Future Weapons Video. Chessy999 02:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I read the entire web site, it says NOTHING about what anything but TDI mean. Further, you are the one changing the name of the article before building a concensus.  It's been named this for a while.  So, once again, READ MY POST and answer for me what all of those cheesy acronyms mean, otherwise, I'll make them lower case.  It'll be the "TDI Kriss Super V Xsmg SMG!"  Yeah, I'll put the exclaimation point in there because... DAMN! --Asams10 00:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Obviously, u did not read the wikipedia article. Chessy999 02:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The reason behind KRISS was mentioned by someone from TDI in the youtube video. XSMG probably means something like eXtreme SubMachine Gun or some other unnecessary superlative.--LWF 02:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Uh, Chez, you're obviously adamant that your way is the right way but, AGAIN, I'm going to challenge you to explain what each part of the title means so that we'll all know. If KRISS is an operating system, then it should not be in the title.  If XSMG is the type of firearm, then it needs to be deliniated as such.  Oh, they REALLY invented a new class of firearm?  REALLY?  Hmmm, why am I skeptical? If I read you right, Cheese, you're saying several different things as we go along.  Now you're saying that, instead of looking at the web page -- which, like an idiot, I did -- I should watch the youtube video.  Oh, you're referencing youtube videos now? The same one that begins with the gross mistake of saying "fully-automatic submachinegun"?  With the guy who's suddenly an expert on firearms because he was a SEAL?  So, as I'm wasting 8 minutes of my life again, I notice that throughout they refer to it as the "Kriss."  It's named after a sword. It's clear that Kriss is not an acronym and, therefore, should not be on all caps like the Glock... don't all-caps it...See that debate here and the policy Naming_conventions_%28capitalization%29.


 * The Super V appears to be the operating system if you're going to reference the video. Now, since you don't seem to be reading what I write, I'll explain how the gun works for those of you who are left. The "revectoring" of the recoil forces is not new, it's been done by the Russians and was referred to in the West as a 'balanced' action.. It was present on the Luger pistol's toggle-lock system, different looking, but the 'revectoring' is not new, not unique, and not particularly innovative. I'd recon it counts for about 20% of the reduction in muzzle climb.  The primary reason the muzzle doesn't climb is because of the in-line design.  The barrel is set in-line with the shooter's strong hand, directing recoil forces directly back.  Funny, they don't talk about this much as it's not patented, it's been used for generations, most notably on the M-16 rifle, to reduce muzzle climb.


 * Bored yet? Good. I'm renaming the article again to TDI Kriss and taking out all 'official' references to XSMG as, again, that's a gimic.  There is already a concensus, by the way, on naming conventions and now that you've had your fun, I'll change it to the proper name per this concensus here. Have a nice day. --Asams10 15:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the website states that KRISS Super V is the operating system, not Super V on its own. To me it appears that XSMG is this particular submachine gun's name.--LWF 20:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, maybe we can email them and ask them WTF? What does Kriss mean? What does Super V mean?  What does XSMG mean? Of course, it's all solved because the youtube video solved it... or is my sarcasm a bit much here?  I'm sorry.  I take it back, Chesty. --Asams10 (talk) 00:35, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The correct name for this firearm is TDI KRISS Super V XSMG can someone contact an administrator to stop this Asams10 person from continually moving the article to new names that are not correct. Chessy999 (talk) 23:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Once more, you FAILED to read what I wrote. Naming convention is as follows: Manufacturer then model.WikiProject_Firearms "Super V" is the operating system, not a manufacturer or model.  XSMG is a marketing gimic, not a manufacturer or model. If you disagree, go make your case there. Your reversions and edits are contrary to Wikipedia policy, contrary to the concensus, and are starting to get annoying.  Your only point is that it sould be what you say it is because you say it should be. --Asams10 (talk) 00:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry Asams10, but I just edited your link to point to the guideline. No insult or any negativity intended. Although I still believe that XSMG is the model name, and KRISS Super V is the operating system per this page: . Look at it where it makes a reference to the KRISS Super V system.--LWF (talk) 01:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello LWF, what do you feel the name for the article should be ?? Chessy999 (talk) 11:51, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, based on what I've been reading, TDI Kriss XSMG, TDI Kriss SMG, TDI XSMG, or TDI SMG would make the most sense. The first two are both used by TDI itself if you look around the website, and the second two because quite simply, they may refer to it one way, but there is no point in having the operating system in the name. It would be like if the TKB-0111, which employed a similar system for reducing recoil was called the TKB-Lafetted-Recoil-0111. Doesn't quite make sense, does it?


 * By the way, everyone please stop moving the page, including you Chessy, your last move was improperly performed, and it would be better if we didn't have to go and revert those.--LWF (talk) 14:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi LWF, I am willing compromise and go with the revised article name TDI KRISS XSMG. The KRISS part has to be capitalized as it is on the manufacturers website, Kriss would not be correct.  Let me know what you think. Chessy999 (talk) 14:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not a subject of compromise, it's a subject of policy and concensus. Kriss is a name and not an acronym. ONCE AGAIN AS I'VE STATED BEFORE AND YOU'VE IGNORED. If -- and who knows because you're not answering -- KRISS is the name of the operating system, then wikiproject firearms policy says to leave it out.  It'd be the TDI XSMG.  Continuing to ignore my posts and failing to respond is not helping your case.  --Asams10 (talk) 15:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Considering you have moved the article to several different names, doesn't give me a lot of confidence that you know what you are talking about, no offense intended. Chessy999 (talk) 17:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I'm reverting your moves. Get it right.  Get off the personal attacks, Chez, you're wrong. --Asams10 (talk) 17:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Asams10 is right, Wikipedia consensus is that only acronyms be capitalized in full. That's why all the Glock articles are only Glock instead of GLOCK, even though Glock consistently capitalizes all the letters.--LWF (talk) 20:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay LWF, then we better call the article TDI Kriss XSMG. Can we capitalize XSMG ? Chessy999 (talk) 20:43, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * XSMG is clearly an acronym, although what the X stands for remains a mystery.--LWF (talk) 20:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Kriss is the name of the operating system (maybe) so it gets left out of the title by concensus. You don't say "M1 Gas-operated Garand Rifle" or "Remington Mauser-style Bolt Action Rifle."  --Asams10 (talk) 21:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Part of the difficulty here is that TDI isn't all that consistent, sometimes it says "Super V system", other times it says "KRISS Super V system".--LWF (talk) 21:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Personaly i think that the name is "XSMG". They have defintly made clear that super V is the system they use not the weapons name. Esskater 11  06:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The company goes by an all caps 'KRISS' not Kriss. The 'X' denotes experimental. 'SMG' stands for sub-machine gun. Hence, XSMG designates the initial, test experimental designs of the sub firearm when it was still in development. KRISSEnthusiast (talk) 14:06, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

TDI Vector
What's up with the new name that was moved without discussion first! Chessy999 (talk) 22:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, because that's what they are calling it now. I'd have thought you'd be happy. --Asams10 (talk) 22:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * They are calling it The KRISS® Super V Vector SMG™ Demonstration Prototype Not the TDI Vector. Chessy999 (talk) 00:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, right. We're not changing the article name to that.  That's also not what they're calling it.  Read the press releases. --Asams10 (talk) 01:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

There are three available versions of the KRISS- the SMG, CRB, and SBR. The KRISS SMG is only referred to as the "Vector" in select video games due to copyright limitations. The correct name, again, is the KRISS SMG, KRISS CRB, or KRISS SBR, depending on which weapon you are referring to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.106.157.122 (talk) 14:28, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

http://www.kriss-tdi.com/products/kriss-smg-45-acp/overviewcrbso.html disagrees with you, and since it's their gun, the weapon is called TDI Vector. "KRISS" seems to be a generic they append to all of the weapons that use the action, since it's also in the name of their shotgun design. Therefore, it's not specific to this weapon and the page should be at TDI Vector. Herr Gruber (talk) 00:31, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I work for TDI and Kriss Super V is the name of our weapon. Please stop infringing on our copyright. Vector is the technology used in our weapons, which we abbrievate as the letter V. Hence, Kriss Super V (Vector). We never call our weapon TDI Vector, nor is it called TDI vector anywhere on our website. Perhaps your are attempting to word play on the words Kriss Vector... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.161.69.204 (talk) 00:48, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I very much doubt your claim of working for TDI as you offer no proof whatsoever of your credentials. TDI's site notes a trademark for "Vector SMG" and an entirely seperate one for "Kriss Super V." It describes the "super V" as the operating system and names all the weqapons as "Vector" with a model suffix. All of TDI's products, including the unrelated shotgun, use the "Kriss" prefix' therefore the weapon is called the Vector. Herr Gruber (talk) 02:22, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

No problem...I will have the website changed to reflect Kriss Super V and refute your supposed argument. The link you provide states Kriss Vector, not TDI Vector...Quit changing our weapons name to match the video games that are out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.161.69.204 (talk) 02:50, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The site shows a weapon series called "Vector" manufactured by a company called TDI, hence the page name is TDI Vector as per, say, Colt Python or Heckler & Koch MP5. "Kriss" is a prefix not specific to the weapon; this is shown by the shotgun, which is a totally seperate platform and yet also uses the name. We don't prefix gun names with part of the name of their operating system just because the manufacturer chooses to. Herr Gruber (talk) 08:50, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * When you have the website changed, we will change the name of the article to match. Until then, the website clearly says that "KRISS Super V" is the operating mechanism, and the subgun models are named "Vector". See GUNS for why the current name of the article is correct. And if we followed your naming convention on other articles, we would have to rename FN FAL to "Gas-operated tilting breechblock rifle", and Heckler & Koch MP5 to "Roller-delayed blowback closed bolt Submachine gun".
 * Also, you mention we are trying "to match the video games that are out". As far as I know, Call of Duty MW2, just released earlier this month, is the only major video game that features this firearm; while this article has been at its current name since early 2008. —  Dan MP5  17:06, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

To please both sides it now is the XSMG but the vector is part of the name, so it is now the TDI "Vector" XSMG and is part of the vector series  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.19.56.111 (talk) 22:13, 29 April 2011 (UTC)


 * No, it isn't. XSMG is just what TDI say instead of SMG because they're trying to sell to the mall ninja market. It's called the Vector. It doesn't even call it XSMG on the product page, neither is the name used by any of the variants. Herr Gruber (talk) 09:02, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

In Production
This is beyond prototype stage, and is in production. Featured on FutureWeapons as well. Can we update this? Soundcrafter (talk) 14:50, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, no, it isn't in production. FutureWeapons is not a reliable source and that show was over a year old.  No TDI Vector that I know of has left the factory.  If you can provice a reliable source that says different, please feel free to add the info yourself. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 15:39, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * My mistake, I didn't check the airdate. I know of several companies taking orders for the weapon, I'll have to access and add later. Soundcrafter (talk) 14:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Good Afternoon. The Kriss Super V System CRB/SO and XSMG are both currently in production and being distributed to dealers nationwide, and they are being manufactured, as always, in the United States. Any further questions regarding Transformational Defense Industries or the Kriss Super V System can be answered by reading the information provided on [www.kriss-tdi.com] or by contacting TDI via the link on the aforementioned website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.183.136.215 (talk) 17:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Gaming?
Anyone notice that the model is the same as the deatomizer in The Conduit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.179.183.40 (talk) 02:47, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Dunno about that game, but this gun (along with the AA-12) is used in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. I'd mention it somewhere, but Wiki tends to dislike trivia sections, and I dunno how to work it in since I don't know anything about firearms lol --Sabishii Kouen (talk) 15:41, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Then why don't you go mention it in those articles where it belongs and not this article? —  Dan MP5  17:15, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I'lll help you out. Apparently what I added to the gun itself got policed out for being 'pop culture' but I learned something about the rules of Wikipedia as well. So, I'll add it here as there is no good place for it.

KRISS Vector in Video Games - SV .45 ACP: Soldier of Fortune: Payback. Released 2007. - Vector: Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. Released 2009. - Mk4/Mk9 Deatomizer: The Conduit. Released 2009. - Kriss Super V: Cross Fire. Released 2009. - Kurtiss Super V: MAG. Released 2010. - Thunder Police: Counter-Strike Online. Released 2010. - TD-V 0.45 SMG: Army of Two: The 40th Day. Released 2010. - Vector: Combat Arms. Released 2010. - Kriss S.V./S.V.D: Project Blackout or Point Blank overseas. Released 2010 [12] - Super V SMG: Homefront. Released 2011. - KROSS: Brink, 2011.[13]

KRISS Vector In TV   - CSI: NY. Episode: Hostage. Carbine version of the KRISS is a machine gun that is used in a murder. It is portrayed as being able to fire a bullet into the same hole that the bullet before it is made while in two round burst due to the low muzzle climb and recoil. While nice, this does not reflect reality. - Future Weapons. Episode: Close Quarters Combat. Richard Machowicz takes an early version of the KRISS SMG for a spin. - Ultimate Weapons. Episode: Close Quarters Combat. The KRISS SMG is rated the #1 CQB weapon in the world KRISSEnthusiast (talk) 20:31, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Design, grip inline with bore axis, and advertisment and promotion.
I think you should remove saying that they advertise that bringing the grip inline with the bore axis contributes to accuracy, reduction of felt recoil and muzzle climb, because that point of design is not mentioned in any advertisment or premotional material for the gun. at least those materials produced by the manufacturer. It would be nice if we could say in the article that this is conspicuously absent too.

Despite any documented evidence that this is obviously the main factor in reducing muzzle climb, its obvious that the reason they don't mention it is because doing so has drawbacks like the sights being much higher than the barrel in comparison to other smgs or reducing the barrel length in relation to the overall size, and they just don't want to say their design has drawbacks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.179.105.53 (talk) 11:27, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Design, grip inline with bore axis, and advertisment and promotion.
I think you should remove saying that they advertise that bringing the grip inline with the bore axis contributes to accuracy, reduction of felt recoil and muzzle climb, because that point of design is not mentioned in any advertisment or premotional material for the gun. at least those materials produced by the manufacturer. It would be nice if we could say in the article that this is conspicuously absent too.

Despite any documented evidence that this is obviously the main factor in reducing muzzle climb, its obvious that the reason they don't mention it is because doing so has drawbacks like the sights being much higher than the barrel in comparison to other smgs or reducing the barrel length in relation to the overall size, and they just don't want to say their design has drawbacks.

70.179.105.53 (talk) 11:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

"Highest sightline in comparison to the bore axis"
I've removed this claim because it isn't qualified with measurements or cited; I'm genuinely unconvinced it's true, since I could think of many weapons with extremely high sightlines. Just offhand, any underbarrel accessory shotgun, any over-under OICW-style weapon, the P90 and the Neostead all have compariable or much larger differences between sight and where they actually throw bullets from. Herr Gruber (talk) 00:52, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Delayed Blowback
Does anybody know the manner in which the blowback operation is delayed? I understand that the bolt moves downwards, but that's just a small part of the operation. Is there a name for the system by which the Vector delays the opening of the chamber? IRSpeshul (talk) 07:01, 20 June 2011 (UTC)