Talk:TSR, Inc./Archive 1

Untitled
Why exactly is this page under Tactical Studies Rules and not TSR? They're far better known by the acronym, and I think they even officially changed their name at some point in the 1980s. -mhr 22:51, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

TSR / Tactical Studies Rules
Tactical Studies Rules is an appropriate title, especially since [TSR] is claimed by a disambiguation page. Alan De Smet 04:21, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Absolutely noone knows the company as Tactical Studies Rules (the IBM main article is not under International Business Machines). The TSR main article should be TSR, Inc., with appropriate redirect from the TSR disambig page. -- Netoholic 04:09, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Name Change
If you want to be picky, it wasn't a name change, but a new company. Don Kaye, one of the original owners of Tactical Studies Rules, died of a stroke, and his widow became the owner of 1/3 of a business she had no intention of running. The two remaining owners (Gygax and Brian Blume) formed a new company, TSR Hobbies and transferred as much of the old company to it as they could. Then, Brian Blume's father, Melvin, provided the cash needed to buy Mrs. Kaye's share of the old Tactical Studies Rules, and the old company was dissolved.

This happened in 1975.

They dropped the word Hobbies from the name in 1983.

More history here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnDArchives_History.asp

I'll make these changes now.

What was this game?
A friend of mine bought a TSR fantasy boardgame that we played from time to time. Unfortunately, I can't remember the exact name. I think it was developed in the mid- to late '80s when TSR was trying to make RPG's more mainstream. I think it was called "Dungeon" or "Dragon" or even "Wizards." The game consisted of tiles you laid down as you played. The goal was to get to the center of the dungeon, where treasure was stored. Then you had to try to get out as fast as possible before the dragon caught up with you (or something like that). So it was sort of like a tile-based random dungeon of sorts. Does anyone know the name of this game? Do we have an article on it? Thanks! :-)  &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 15:26, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * Sounds like Dungeon!, which was re-released a few times over the years. --Paul Soth 23:03, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, I'm betting the game in question is the 1987 game "DungeonQuest", published by Games Workshop (Originally as "Drakborgen", published by some Dutch(?) company.) It behaves exactly as described: you lay random tiles to try and get into the center.  If you remember the game being very difficult (quite frequently no one would win), I'd be almost positive.  (The difficulty is part of the charm, our group still drags it out occasionally.)  However, it's easy to confuse with the similarlly named "Dungeon", published in 1975 and reprinted every few years in a new edition by TSR through the 1980s.  Dungeon had a static, preprinted board. Alan De Smet | Talk 21:48, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

Wizard of the Coast was not sued by TSR
Wizard of the Coast was not sued by TSR, it was sued by Palladium, check this article by John Tynes or also the press release from Palladium So I deleted the comment about the lawsuit. Moroboshi 16:00, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Games Made By TSR
Wouldn't it would seem logical to add a list that tells all of the games TSR published? --68.231.144.11


 * Yes, it would.  &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 19:51, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

Reasons for TSR's decline
Cut from article:
 * "TSR's reckless legal actions led to a precipitous decline in the popularity of its products, as fans turned to competing games such as Rolemaster and Palladium's Fantasy Role-Playing Game, whose publishers were far less restrictive about the creation of derivative works (Palladium later turned out to also be somewhat draconian towards its audience)."

None of the sources say this, and frankly I don't buy it even as a simplified version of the facts. I've never seen any evidence that Rolemaster or Palladium Fantasy was ever playing in the same ballpark saleswise as AD&D. And "reckless" and "draconian" are not exactly NPOV words.
 * TSR's reckless decline had a lot to do with that AD&D was considered almost a satanic game which book stores banned in the 80s. This due to the account of someone running through the streets with a sword and as rumor had it either killed himself or someone else. Before you state such a fact I really would like to see proof, because I do have a very reliable source. --None-of-the-Above 05:48, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * ? State what fact? The fact that it was considered a satanic game may have helped sales, but the opinion or at least the noise really died out by the late 1980s and it's pretty doubtful that it was a big part of TSR's failings in the mid-1990s. (They were pretty much bankrupt by the time WotC bought them.)--Prosfilaes 05:53, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Decline in products due to reckless legal actions. I quote, " GameSpy: So it goes for a couple of years, gets really popular, then in the early '80s a backlash begins. People are saying that the game encourages devil worship and causes kids to commit suicide.
 * Gygax: That really pushed the sales up. [Laughs]

GameSpy: Well, I know it didn't hurt the game from a sales perspective, but it certainly must have been difficult to laugh with people saying your game is causing kids to commit suicide and that you're teaching them to summon demons.
 * Gygax: No. I know it's a lie, so it's not difficult at all. I mean, there wasn't a shred of evidence or veracity in any of those claims. I knew it, and a lot of people told me that, including mothers of two of the children who had committed suicide. One of them said the only reason that her son didn't kill himself sooner was because he enjoyed playing Dungeons & Dragons and that this was all just a cock-and-bull story

" --None-of-the-Above 07:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't see where that says anything about reckless legal actions. Even when the interview goes on, and he's talking about the suit over Dangerous Journeys, he still doesn't say that it caused a decline in popularity, and more certainly never says that it sent fans to Rolemaster or Palladium. In, he says "Eventually, we settled and I'm pleased to say that I think the amount of money it cost them to sue us and pay out in settlement was what really drove TSR under.", but that says nothing about the popularity of the game, and even at face value, it's speculation from an outsider who had no access to hard numbers on the matter.


 * I don't think I get your point; I'm not sure why you quoted that bit of text.--Prosfilaes 07:32, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

The first line under this subsection reads, "TSR's reckless legal actions led to a precipitous decline in the popularity of its products...". I was discrediting it. --None-of-the-Above 08:02, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Right; that's the text I cut from the article.--Prosfilaes 08:06, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think we are on the same track of thought. I will just leave it with a nevermind. --None-of-the-Above 08:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The "Magic & Memories: The Complete History of Dungeons & Dragons" series over at Gamespy gives better insights to the reason for TSR's fall. One of these section is "They Sue Regularly":


 * "With Wizards of the Coast growing at an explosive rate and beginning to nip at its heels, Williams and TSR began to squeeze the life out of the very market that had supported it. Rather than attempt to grow the marketplace and win in competition, Williams instead tried to banish everybody else from what she apparently viewed as her private domain. Under her management the company began to ruthlessly enforce its own copyrights along with a few it didn't even have (such as a claim that nobody else could use the word "dragon"). (...) Even Gary Gygax himself wasn't immune. When Gygax created a new RPG system with Game Designer's Workshop called Dangerous Journeys, TSR sued him for copyright infringement. The case was eventually settled when TSR agreed to purchase all rights to the game for a considerable sum of money -- a pyrrhic victory for TSR, as the case cost the company far more than it could afford. "--2606:A000:7D44:100:8936:C8B5:6549:D9C1 (talk) 13:42, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Beginning of the Decline of TSR in 1983
— Regarding the decline of TSR: I was the Director of Training & Development at TSR in 1983. At the time, TSR, through Brian and Doug Blume, contracted with the American Management Association to teach all managers the "Essential of Management" course, and to upgrade the leadership skills of its senior staff through the AMA's "Presidents' Club Leadership Training" series. This was done to answer criticisms that TSR, while ranked as #22 in Inc. Magazine's Top 1983 500 list of fastest growing companies, lacked the management horsepower to keep up with its growth. I will never forget one afternoon in 1984 when all of the senior management was in an AMA training course that I was facilitating. One of the financial managers had walked into the training room and whispered something to Kevin Blume. Shortly, all four of the senior managers, Kevin, Doug, Brian, and Gary Gygax, left the room and I was told that the training session was to be canceled for the rest of the afternoon. I learned shortly that the message had to do with the fact that TSR was apparently close to a financial crisis, and had to avoid it by what I was told as "financing receivables" to get it through the period. It was then after that week that rumors of layoffs surfaced, and that the beginning of TSR's decline appeared to have started as a result of a year of rapid growth and product start-up and acquisition that surpassed its ability to control its cash flow to keep it solvent. A month after that, layoffs began that saw TSR go from about 400 people worldwide to about a core group of 75 people less than a year later. I hope that this piece of information will contribute to the section regarding "TSR's Downfall." While there, I personally experienced a positive and energetic staff that had visions of growth for the future, encouraged by the financial and management support from Brian Blume and Kevin Blume, and also from Doug Blume who had much of a "backstage" role as the Vice President of Human Resources for the company. He had an influential role in bringing in the development and management programs that drove the evolution of the company.Jekazels 14:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This is very interesting and would be useful information in this article. Unfortunately, this is unverifiable information.  If there were a published source for this information then we could use it.  Until then, it is original research.  Val42 13:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Dark Sun, Planescape, Ravenloft, and Spelljammer
Why aren't they mentioned in the article? LA @ 07:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * They are all a part of Dungeons & Dragons, not separate games, so that's probably why. -Drilnoth (talk) 13:25, 29 November 2008 (UTC)==Image fair use==

Collapsing all of BetacommandBot's warnings to save space. -Drilnoth (talk) 19:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

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