Talk:Table Rock Lake duck boat accident/Archive 1

Image suggestions
Here are a couple of ideas for images to add to the article, if someone is able to find them either at Commons or with the appropriate Fair Use rationale:


 * 1) Image of the boat in question
 * 2) Stock image of a duck boat
 * 3) Screen capture of the current radar over the lake at the time of the accident

Just a couple of ideas. Striker force Talk 18:36, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think an image of the military duck boat, which had a folding canvas canopy as opposed to a hard aluminum one, may be useful next to the section on the investigation. To me it seems like the primary flaw with these tourist models, and the NTSB warning would seem to back that up. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:31, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * What about image of the aftermath of the accident? For example, police, troopers and fire fighters searching for survivors.廣九直通車 (talk) 14:58, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * If such an image may be found, that would seem appropriate. Striker force Talk 14:39, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

I am wondering why we don't have a photo of any of the Branson Ducks on the article? Unfortunately I don't have a photo of one so we need help on finding a free one. Sawblade5 (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 23:12, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Also to add, If we can spot a freely licensed photo of Stretch Duck 7 which was what media is reporting as the name of the boat. You are looking for the letters SD7 on the nose behind the MO Licence Number.Sawblade5 (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 23:32, 23 July 2018 (UTC)


 * So far I found this Copyrighted picture of the involved boat on Flickr Link This is the excact boat involved, We need to find a free pic of it.Sawblade5 (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 00:08, 24 July 2018 (UTC)


 * OR... we need to ask the person who holds the copyright to THIS picture if he would be willing to release the copyright under terms that would allow us to use it.  I have sent him a Flickr mail, will report back if I hear anything.  A loose noose (talk) 00:09, 25 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I found someone and he uploaded it for me. Send your Barnstars to David Wills who uploaded the image for us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Duck_Boat,_Branson,_MO.jpg Sawblade5 (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 04:05, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The files of USCG has been transferred to Commons as TableRockDuckBoatRecovery1.jpg and TableRockDuckBoatRecovery2.jpg.廣九直通車 (talk) 04:12, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * This had already been ✅ by Beeblebrox, 廣九直通車|廣九直通車|廣九直通車. Striker force Talk 14:45, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Life jackets?
And surely a boat like this is required to have a proper flotation device for each passenger, and the crew shoud have instructed them to put them on as soon as they realized they were in trouble? I know it’s early times, maybe the press hasn’t gotten to this aspect yet. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:33, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually I think proper procedure might have been to not go on the water until everyone has theirs on in a boat this size, as events demonstrated that “the first sign of trouble” might already have been too late. Daniel Case (talk) 08:26, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I believe that the boat did have enough life jackets, but it seems like they were instructed, by the captain, not to use them? (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-missouri-boat-family/missouri-duck-boat-captain-told-passengers-not-to-don-life-jackets-survivor-idUSKBN1KB007) PotentPotables (talk) 12:34, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * OMG ... if that’s true, I can hear the lawyer for the boat company facepalming from all the way down here in Cape Town. Daniel Case (talk) 13:02, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It's definitely something to keep an eye on as the investigation progresses. PotentPotables (talk) 13:35, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * One of the things that will be investigated is the role the canopy had. It is possible the canopy trapped people wearing life vests, as the buoyancy of the vests may have held the wearers against the canopy as the boat sank. SlowJog (talk) 20:47, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

i also notice that the boat was called “Stretch Duck 7” which implies it was “stretched” longer than the original design. I don’t know that we have a source saying this as a factor int he accident but it’s worth keeping an eye out for it as the NTSB investigates. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:46, 28 July 2018 (UTC)


 * These things had a 15 inch midsection lengthening; if anything, it would make it slightly less vulnerable to what sank it. Qwirkle (talk) 19:49, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Cause?
It’s premature to assign a cause; ultimately that might be more “ignoring weather conditions” than “weather conditions”. Qwirkle (talk) 23:49, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Unless and until evidence emerges (probably in a courtroom) showing that Ride the Ducks was somehow negligent in their handling of the situation, the cause of the accident is primarily weather with the open possibility of mechanical failure as a contributing factor. jon/bla/tho/talk 02:36, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * No.
 * That, the possibility of legal action on the one hand, and of maligning a firm inaccurately on the other, might be a reason to leave off certain speculation, but it is not justification of other speculation. We don’t know why the boat sank, and assigning weather as the only cause is not accurate. (Unless there has been some breaking news clearing this up in overnight..)


 * Also, it is entirely possible that an investigation could find a major contributory cause that was not RtD’s responsibility; you are arguing based on a false dichotomy. Qwirkle (talk) 14:15, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * If the cause is under investigation, then perhaps we should just write “Under investigation” in the infobox instead of assuming anything. “Not determined” implies an investigation was conducted which was inconclusive. Mz7 (talk) 20:36, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * That sounds right to me. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:50, 22 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Duck Boat Survivor Says Captain Told Them 'Don't Worry About Grabbing the Life Jackets' -- Yahoo News 108.20.255.36 (talk) 07:21, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I’ve added that to the article. I confess that I am behind the times in adding refs to articles and am still doing it the way we did years ago, so if somebody wants to update it go for it. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:21, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Capsize?
The images I’ve seen show a vessel listing only moderately and about to founder; is there anything actually showing the boat capsized, or is this the unfortunately common case of newsies reaching for colorful words which they don’t actually understand?Qwirkle (talk) 17:27, 22 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree with that sentiment, while the media reports say that it 'capsized' it does appear at least to me that the vessel began taking on water and just sank. Cocoaguy ここがいい 17:36, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * That seems to be the case, their are using “sink” and “capsize” interchangeably when the one has a more specific meaning than the other. Most of the sources seem to use both terms, so I believe we can take the high road and just use “sink” without worrying about engaging in WP:OR. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:49, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I feel that unless they start suggesting an alternative method of sinking, capsizing seems to be the appropriate one as most reliable sources I see use that term.--Jasper Deng (talk) 16:12, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think a look at the sources shows that the more technical the source is, the less likely it is to use “capsize”, and none of the survivor accounts describe that, either overtly or indirectly, and the visual evidence is pretty disuasive for a capsize. Qwirkle (talk) 16:32, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

NWS timeline of watches/warnings, life jackets
Here's a ref for none of them wearing a life jacket. - an incident report from the Missouri State Highway Patrol says none of the 31 people on board was wearing a life jacket. And here's a timeline of warnings issued by the National Weather Service in Springfield ahead of the Ride the Ducks tragedy at Table Rock Lake. For a point of reference Branson is located in Taney county, and this is where the Ride the Ducks attraction is located, but when they go out on Table Rock Lake they are in Stone county, and the Stone County Sheriff's Department has jurisdiction over that general area where they launch from. The first severe thunderstorm watch for Stone and Taney Counties (and the Table Rock Lake area) was issued at 11:20 a.m. and the first severe thunderstorm warning issued for Stone county was at 6:07 p.m, and at 6:32 p.m. a severe thunderstorm warning was issued for Taney and Stone counties and Branson and Table Rock Lake are specifically mentioned in this warning. KY3 and The Springfield News-Leader are both local sources that covered this quite a bit. Isaidnoway (talk)  10:04, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Edit: Someone asked about the boat canopy above in another thread, here's a ref from a witness who says the captain released it, the captain had a moment of clarity and was able to release the canopy of the boat. The captain of the boat survived, but the driver did not. Isaidnoway (talk)  10:25, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Better source?
Marinelink.com has got a bit on this now, worth looking at. Qwirkle (talk) 21:17, 23 July 2018 (UTC) https://www.marinelink.com/news/coast-guard-salvages-missouri-boat-fatal-439898

Workboat does as well: https://www.workboat.com/news/passenger-vessels/duck-boat-sinks-in-missouri-17-dead/

Soundings is steering clear of it: https://www.soundingsonline.com/search?query=Duck%20boat

Professional Mariner used it in its initial report, ascribed to a local newspaper, but dropped it in the follow up on raising the wreck. http://www.professionalmariner.com/Web-Bulletin-2018/Coast-Guard-raises-duck-boat-involved-in-fatal-sinking/

So, any reasonably expert sources describing this as a capsize? Qwirkle (talk) 17:17, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

No mention of the Showboat Branson Belle Postponing Cruises through July 24.
I was gonna add this myself to the aftermath section but the only 3rd party source I found mentioning is a news blog from Orlando Weekly with a blatant bias here https://m.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2018/07/23/it-looks-like-orlando-based-ripley-entertainment-is-about-to-get-their-ass-sued-off-after-branson-duck-boat-accident which I feel is not a very good source. I am also having trouble with Google putting my news article search in proper timeline order. So I need help here so it can be added to the article. Sawblade5 (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 23:23, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Add this incident to the following articles
Please add this incident to the following articles, as appropriate:
 * List of disasters in the United States by death toll
 * List of accidents and disasters by death toll

Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:37, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Can someone help me upload these Salvage Operation Photos
I found a couple of public domain photos of the salvage operation Here, but I am not at my desktop computer and it's very hard to upload from a mobile device. So can someone upload the images and add them to the article please? Thank You! Sawblade5 (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 16:56, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Beeblebrox (talk) 17:14, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ and inserted into the article. Striker force Talk 17:18, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think the other one is a bit more dynamic myself. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:25, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Never mind I see you used both. Looks like we duplicated the same uploads. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:27, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Great minds and stuff like that, eh? Striker force Talk 17:28, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually I uploaded them at Commons, i don’t see why they need to be hosted here as they’re free. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:32, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

“See Also”
I do not see any particular connection between this incident and the Ethan Allen sinking, beyond the superficial one of fresh water. Any good reason for it to be here? Qwirkle (talk) 01:44, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think I agree. Not a duck boat, weather not a factor, not much in common except being a tourist boat accident, which sadly is not uncommon. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:35, 29 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The only article currently here on Wikipedia that bears any similarities at all is the 1978 Whippoorwill tornado in this case there was only a Severe Thunderstorm Watch and a Tornado Formed on the lake and capsized the boat. But I kinda split on adding it to the article. Sawblade5 (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 02:32, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Alright, if we're going to have a two-person consensus here (I see the two accidents as similar because they both took place on large lakes involving small tourist boats and produced similar amounts of casualties, thus getting nationwide coverage, but I'm not going to press the point because it seems like you've made up your minds and grousing on the talk page is infinitely preferable to edit war), can we at least do that without removing the entire section? , I would suggest that if your edit summary consists solely of a question, you would be better served by going to the talk page and raising it there instead of acting unilaterally to answer it as if the question you posed was just for show and you'd already made up your mind as to the answer. This is the sort of supercilious behavior that drives thousands upon thousands of newcomers away from Wikipedia every year.

More specifically, to address your question, if you would check the linked List of disasters in the United States by death toll, you would have seen that this accident is, indeed, already listed there as it is above the 15-death threshold for inclusion in that list.

So, since it's on that list, I'm restoring at least the list link. Daniel Case (talk) 17:21, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I only removed the entire section because there was only one item in it at the time, and I waited a day between commenting and removal. I would add that adding it in in the first place constitutes a “consensus of one” if you want to look at it that way, which personally I don’t. WP:BRD seems relevant here rather than WP:CON, anyone could have removed it at any time without discussing here first.
 * To the actual point: I find the similarities fairly superficial, if one takes a more global view there are lots and lots of tourist boat sinking articles. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:36, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Accident section
The following sentence should be removed or revised with updated information: It is not known whether the two crew members aboard the vessel were aware of the warning or what action they attempted to take.
 * Normally, the vessel tours the popular country music and entertainment community first before going to the lake for about a 20-minute boat ride...the video recordings show that at 6:28 p.m., someone briefly stepped onto the rear of the vehicle and told the crew to take the water portion of the tour first. A minute later, with passengers boarding, the captain made a reference to looking at the weather radar prior to the trip. Source
 * At 6:29 p.m., "the captain made a verbal reference to looking at the weather," according to the NTSB's review, which noted that "times presented here are as-recorded by the DVR and have not yet been validated against local time." The duck captain, identified in a Missouri State Highway Patrol report as Kenneth McKee, "was told to take the water portion of the tour first," the NTSB said, "by an individual who briefly stepped onto the rear of the vehicle." Second source. Isaidnoway (talk)  07:26, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * As the person that wrote this article in its original form (including the sentence in question), I would say that - at the time - the sources you're suggesting were not available, so the sentence was factual. Feel free to make the edit. Striker force Talk 13:58, 31 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I’d say, though, that it still isn’t clear exactly what the driver and captain were told. They could have been told “weather” without realizing the seriousness of it, they could have assumed there was some other reason, & cet. Agree it should change, but it can’t get too specific. Qwirkle (talk) 14:21, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Recent addition about victim nationalities
Unsourced, and in contradiction to available sources, e.g. this. Wassup? Qwirkle (talk) 12:37, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The IP making those edits jst got a three month block for persistently adding false or unsourced information to articles. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:56, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Preliminary NTSB report is out...
...not a word about capsize. Makes a distinction between DUKW for real military vs. DUCK for more recent imitations; I think that’s a needless neologism, but YMMV. Qwirkle (talk) 23:33, 7 August 2018 (UTC)