Talk:Table of Ranks

Page needs better name
Table of Ranks is a poor title for this page. First of all each title should stand alone so it should be something like Table of ranks in Imperial Russia. I don't know enough about this subject to know if this is a good title or not and I don't want to do a page move only to have to have it moved again. Second, Wiki capitalization rules on page titles is that only the first word and proper nouns are capitalized.


 * Tabel o Rangakh (The Table of Ranks) is the name of the table as given by Peter I, so the capitalization is correct, as per Wiki capitalization rules. I think a more specific title would help, though - something like "Table of Ranks (Imperial Russia)" should work. [06-07-2006]
 * "Table of Ranks (Imperial Russia)" format of title is pointless. There is no other thing called Table of Ranks. Original article title restored. `'mikkanarxi 18:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Not true, in 1675, Louis instituted the ordre du tableau (Table of Ranks) making power dependent on rank and seniority (not noble birth).

Recheck a few specific titles
After I did some editing to clean up this table's appearance, I began to think it would be good for an expert to make certain I hadn't changed the proper column positions. I know very little of Peter's system and I specifically wondered about Court Councilors and Privy Councilors, which both sound to me more like court ranks than civil ranks. Thank you.

John Sinclair 09:29, 4 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saltlakejohn (talk • contribs)


 * They were both civil ranks. The names are a bit confusing :) Bazuz (talk) 23:25, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I've just checked the background for надворный and it actually refers to a system of civil courts of justice (Надворный суд) with jurisdiction over the lower social estates, which originated in 1719 and are similar to the reichshofrat system of the Holy Roman Empire. These courts were led by a Hofrat, a Court Concillor; this was later made into a general beaurocratic rank and survives in Austria to this day. The Privy Councillor similarily originates from Geheimrat, a German successor to the Hofrat rank. So these two titles have originated from German judicial ranks, not English court or civil ranks. I have changed the wikilinks to somehow reflect this.
 * BTW I made ; I had to cross-translate many specialty titles from German to English, so some errors could remain and a check-up would be appreciated. --Dmitry (talk •contibs ) 19:51, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Personal nobility
It seems that the _personal_ nobility was _not_ given from the lowest (14th) rank, as the page currently says. Even Russian Wikipedia says:

"По манифесту 11 (23) июня 1845 года[9] право на потомственное дворянство приобреталось с производством в штаб-офицерский чин (8-й класс) или в чин 5-го класса гражданской службы при условии, что эти чины присвоены не при выходе в отставку. Личное дворянство чиновник получал только с 9-го класса, служащие в более низких чинах имели право на статус личных почетных граждан. В военной службе личное дворянство давали так называемые обер-офицерские чины (не выше 9-го класса)."

Basically, since 1845 you'd need 8th grade at military and 5th grade of civil service (not assigned at retirement) to get heredial nobility; personal nobility was assign from 9th rank, below that gives you a honoured citizen status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:C38:B080:E4CB:2286:4684:D5B8 (talk) 19:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC)