Talk:Table tennis/Archive 1

Official rules of table tennis
International Table Tennis Rules can be found at http://www.ittf.com/ITTF_Hand_Book/2_Handbook.html

2.11.1 A game shall be won by the player or pair first scoring 11 points unless both players or pairs score 10 points, when the game shall be won by the first player or pair subsequently gaining a lead of 2 points.

2.13.3 After each 2 points have been scored the receiving player or pair shall become the serving player or pair and so on until the end of the game, unless both players or pairs score 10 points or the expedite system is in operation, when the sequences of serving and receiving shall be the same but each player shall serve for only 1 point in turn.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Chuck Smith (talk • contribs) 20:28, 9 May 2002

History
Can't we have some history? First played using a ball carved out of a champagne cork with a net and bats both consisting of books etc.? BozMo 09:56, 26 April 2004 (UTC)

Removed section
Removed this section, which was added by 128.114.51.224:


 * Illegal style of play
 * The pong pong player photo on this wikipedia page show a very specific illegal style of Table Tennis. Notice the hand hold of the paddle of this player. This photo show the man has no rudimentary training or knowledge of Table Tennis.
 * Illegal Table Tennis playing style is a common phenomenon worldwide. It is due to the wide popularity of the sport and the extreme lack of professionals / trainers in this field.
 * There are many ways to play pingpong illegally.
 * Please, someone post a better photo!!! IT is a shame to have this guys photo posted here!!!

The grammar is poor, the first paragraph is pretty pointless without more detail, and the "please post another photo" request belongs on this Talk page (although I do agree that a better photo would be an improvement). - Plutor 17:49, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hazlitt Gill?
Who is Hazlitt Gill? Google's never heard of him and "Hazlitt Gill aided the game's popularity in the early 21st century" doesn't sound right. I'm not sure if I should delete though; I'm inexperienced. Swiftly 15:31, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Illegal style
I have moved the following comment by 128.114.50.84 here from the article because it is criticism of the article and does not provide  any information to the reader who wants to learn about TT. A section on what is good legal style in TT would be helpful. Lumos3 22:07, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * The pong pong player photo on the top of this wikipedia page shows a very specific illegal style of Table Tennis. Notice the hand hold of the paddle of this player. This photo shows the man has no rudimentary training or knowledge of Table Tennis. Illegal Table Tennis playing style is a common phenomenon worldwide. It is due to the wide popularity of the sport and the extreme lack of professionals / trainers in this field.

''I think the illegal style comment goes too far. As long as a style doesn't include rule-breaking moves, it can't be ruled illegal arbitrarily. If styles of play, rather than dirty tricks, can be outlawed, then the top table tennis players won't get much respect! They'll be better off as table tennis lawyers!'' -Jimworm

This could be a featured article
I think that this article has good potential to become a featured article. It would be great if someone who is interested in table tennis would put the article up for peer review. ike9898 June 28, 2005 21:17 (UTC)

Humans and History
Is table tennis a sport that is no longer played by humans and all we have left in the 21st century are the rules of the game, measurements, and the historical evolution of the paddle and ball? And today it only played by robots? It sure seems that way from this article. Who are the well known players? What attributes put them at the top of their game? What are the major table tennis tournaments? Are there schools of playing?


 * Good point. If you know the answers to these questions then please add them to the article Lumos3 30 June 2005 07:43 (UTC)

Forrest???
I don't get the Forrest Gump reference. I would have nuked it for being silly (but then again people have nuked "my" stuff for being silly and I didn't like that, so ....).

In short: WTF (sorry) is that about???

I've seen the film. AFAICR (R=recall) it's not a noteworthy table tennis example. Wit 17:00, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Animations
I think the animations are a great addition to the article but they are too noisy to have at the article head. I have moved them to the notable player section and restored the colour image to the head of article. They are excellent to give readers a feel of an outstanding player in action but the quality is too poor to head the article. Even if of better quality I'm not sure an article looks good with an animation at its head. I dont know of any examples in Wikipedia where this is done. Lumos3 08:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Does any of the more experienced wiki-editors know whether there is a special separate place for these animations? The animated-GIF at the head is over 200k alone, which makes this page rather slow for dialup users and the like. Maybe a thumbnail that goes to the animation would be better. Jimworm 11:11, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I have made non-animated versions of: [[Media:Wlqxjrk.gif]], [[Media:WaldnerTraining.gif]] and [[Media:WaldnerTraining2.gif]]. For the person (User:Tosqueira) who spent so much time making the animations, don't worry because the animated versions are still available as links inside the captions. This change cuts 500kb from the page download (which is almost a minute and a half of loading time for dial-up users). The new images are: [[Media:Wlqxjrk_small.jpg]], [[Media:WaldnerTraining_small.jpg]] and [[Media:WaldnerTraining2_small.jpg]]. Jimworm 12:26, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Chinese characters
The English pinyin for the "table tennis" in Chinese is wrong (actually, it's the pinyin for the "Japanese" part, which is kanji which is also table tennis in Chinese). Can somebody who knows pinyin fix it please? Jimworm 21:42, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Moving this page
Someone ( 201.21.77.174 or Tosqueira ) moved this page to Table Tennis  without discussion. I can see no reason for this and have undone the change. If you think it should be moved please state reasons here. By the way, Wikipedia Naming conventions states that
 * Convention: Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized (for example: John Wayne, but not Computer Game).

Lumos3 14:50, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Types of Shots
I just lengthened the section on grip styles, and now the section on "Types of Shots" doesn't quite make sense. The introduction doesn't quite match up.

I don't know how to move things around or reorganize, but I'm thinking that it would make more sense to change this section as follows:

Level 1 heading: "Styles of Play", (or maybe Table Tennis Technique, Technique, Play Technique, Play Mechanics, Terminology,...)

Level 2 heading: Grips

Level 2 heading: Types of Shots

Just a suggestion. If someone who is more wikicompetent than me could do this, I think the article would be better.

Cryptor3 10:45, 25 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Done but I think more work needs to be done.
 * A brief intro to styles
 * Explanation of Counter Drive
 * Explanation of Stop
 * Lumos3 10:58, 25 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I notice that there is an article called "Table tennis styles." Is there a reason why we don't merge with that content?  It seems that by adding to this section, we begin to step into overlapping territory.  Perhaps someone could explain the intended relationship of this article with the related articles?
 * Cryptor3 23:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the various aspects of table tennis are too complex to be explained in a single article without making it difficult to read. Sections containing intros with links to main articles would make this one much more user-friendly. Jimworm 13:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Push can be used in some counties for slice but there are some that this term is used for backhand active block. Tosqueira
 * "Push" in Chinese is an active block, mostly used on penholders; the Chinese term for the English "push" has no equivalent in English. Jimworm 10:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * After reading the accompanying article change... Push refers to the short stroke, over-the-table backspin shot. A slice (chop) is a long defensive stroke that could (if necessary) overcome large amounts of topspin. Both strokes have a few different variations, ie the short/spin/fast pushes, and the backspin/sidespin/no-spin slices that could be performed with spin/anti-spin/long pimple rubbers. This article has potential to grow a bit yet. Jimworm 11:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Edit war imminent?
I made my changes to make the article more relevant and tidier. ShawdowNinja you've put in some useful info, but please state your reasons for the reverts. Jimworm 02:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Table Tennis vs. Ping Pong
Which is a more appropriate name for the sport? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.19.134.90 (talk • contribs) 04:16, 6 February 2006


 * IMHO, both are acceptable, though in my experience (American English), "ping pong" has a pejorative connotation associated with it. However, in Chinese, the term for the game is closely related to the sound that the ball makes (much like "ping pong"), so I don't have a problem with it.  Therefore I would say that in English, you should use table tennis, especially because that's what the governing body calls it.
 * Cryptor3 03:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * In the US, it's called "table tennis" by new converts to club-level play (eg, graduating from basement play). After you become seasoned enough you don't care that most people call it "ping pong".  It's a lost cause, just like "I could care less".
 * --Kshahn 19:05, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Table tennis methods
Comments that direct people to play in a certain way is POV. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a coaching manual. Almost all table tennis players feel very strongly about their own style in a "my style is best" manner, and putting in POV statements such as "you should counterdrive towards the corners" or "you should loop a chop" will result in endless style debates. Jimworm 23:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Many of the suggestions are poor suggestions too. LeiZhu 01:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

We don't need comments on who is right in the style debate, it is all clearly irrelevant. Nicholassharland 07:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Japanese terms
I noticed the "Defensive strokes" section has some Japanese terms. Are these necessary in an English language article? Are they widely used outside of Japan by table tennis players? They seem to be derived from English words: "katto" from "cut", "shooto" from "short"(block), "tsuttsuki" could be from "slice". LDHan 15:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but aren't they interesting while relevant at the same time? Why be afraid of a little sidestep? Well-spotted though Wit 17:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * If they are used only in Japan, then I think they are not relevant to the article. If they are relevant, and are only used in Japan, then all Japanese, or any other non-English table tennis terms would be relevant too. Why include just these three? However I would suggest they would be suitable and interesting in Table tennis in Japan. If anyone is  interested, please feel free to start such an article. LDHan 18:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The Japanese terms, while interesting, should not be included in this article imo. These terms are only used in Japan and they all have non-Japanese derived equivalents in many other languages. However, it would be relevant to include one particular shot's original name if the technique was invented somewhere. The example of loop drive (from Hungary?) comes to mind. Jimworm 00:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the Japanese terms, for those who are interested the terms are: Slice : The slice (or ツッツキ "tsuttsuki" in Japanese) Chop : A chop or cut (or カット "katto" in Japanese) Block : The block or short (or ショート "shooto" in Japanese) LDHan 20:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Organization, duplication
I feel like the article is getting more disorganized/unclear as time progresses. I see information duplicated across sections as well (ball size, table dimensions, rules of play, etc.). Is it just me? Would it help to say, to agree on an organization philosophy here in the Discussion page? Cryptor3 09:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I could not agree more. 64 headings is bloated. I've taken some notes and can find 8 sections that should be combined with others and 9 that can be removed entirely without serious objection. Would like to build consensus on how to proceed. List suggestions here?-- RainmanCT (talk) 13:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Hardbat
I think I'm going to go ahead and create a Hardbat stub. With several national hardbat championships, it should deserve its own article (or at least redirect here), especially concerning its recent resurgence in popularity. I do have a certain issue with the date mentioned in the article though (preferring the 1940-60s style of no-sponge). If I'm not mistaken, by the 1960s no-sponge rubbers were pretty much dead in international competitions and outside of the United States. Nezbie 07:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Whats going on with the terminology of the strokes on this page? Speed drive? Slice? I think Speed drive' should read 'counter-hit', and 'slice' is simply a 'push'. Im not entirely sure if these have been directly translated off some website or something, but ive been playing quite a while and never heard them used.

For the record, a 'speed drive' is not more difficult to return than a loop drive

Terminology
Whats going on with the terminology of the strokes on this page? Speed drive? Slice? I think Speed drive' should read 'counter-hit', and 'slice' is simply a 'push'. Im not entirely sure if these have been directly translated off some website or something, but ive been playing quite a while and never heard them used.

For the record, a 'speed drive' is not more difficult to return than a loop drive

"The paddles, also known as bats or rackets"

The 'paddle' article is all about oars, should it be removed?

Origin
An anon changed "England" to "Scotland" with no explanation. I reverted. Rich Farmbrough 14:45 8  May 2006 (UTC).

History - Skladanek brothers
There is no mention of these on Google or on the Danish Wikipedia. I suspect a hoax. Please supply a citation or the mention will be deleted. Lumos3 18:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The user who added this is known to vandalize pages (see User talk:Unleashedchaos) and "tabølboêt" doesn't sound like a Danish word at all (I'm Danish), so I suggest that that paragraph should be removed. --Oagersnap 16:17, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I'm just removing the paragraph, since that entire part is clearly nonsense. --Oagersnap 16:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Club sites on External links
The list of TT club web sites is already big and is potentially huge.

I have removed them here keeping only general portals in the article. Please move back any I have mis categorised. Lumos3 22:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Auburn,California Table tennis Club
 * University of Washington Table Tennis Club
 * Polish Table Tennis Magazine
 * Table Tennis Links
 * Mytabletennis.Net
 * Mesatenista.Net (in Brazilian Portuguese)
 * Mesatenista.Net (English Translated Version by Babelfish)
 * PongWorld.com
 * KKreanga.Info - Table Tennis Videos
 * Table Tennis Topics
 * www.martinspin.ch - Swiss tt-site with videos
 * www.masatenisi.org ( In Turkish-English )
 * masa tenisi ( In Turkish-English )
 * TTV Novio, Dutch table tennis club (In Dutch-English)
 * Table Tennis Stadiums
 * Table Tennis Association of the Philippines Extension (Unofficial)
 * Knoxville Table tennis Club

Rule
According to a friend of mine, if during your serve your ball bounces twice on your opponent's side the point is awarded to your opponent. Does this rule exist?
 * No Lumos3 11:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Unless you're playing Calvin & Hobbes style :) If you can get the ball to bounce twice on your opponent's side, that means you've performed an excellent backspin serve. Your friend should buy you a beer for that (or an isotonic sports drink LOL) Wit 15:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Twice a let = a point rule
Lots of people are led to believe that if you touch the net with the ball on three consecutive serves, a point is awarded to the opponent. Even though that idea is not strange at all (because it will help counter annoying service behaviour by any of the players) it is not an official TT rule. It does however have a mention in the list of so-called Basement rules. PS: don't forget to read the note at the top of that page :-) Wit 17:20, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Bat/Racket
This page calls the hitting implement for table tennis a racket. However, I have checked the page for racket (or raquet), which describes rackets thus:

"A racquet (or racket) is a sports implement consisting of a handled frame with an open hoop across which a network of cord is stretched. It is used for catching or striking a ball in such games as squash, tennis, racquetball, and badminton. Collectively, these games are known as racquet sports."

Table tennis bats are solid, and therefore are not by definition rackets. I have played table tennis for many years and know that they are always called bats.

I thought I'd ask for other people's opinions before making wholesale changes, but I'm sure I'm right. Simon j Taylor 10:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If you look in the ITTF Laws of Table Tennis, you will see that the ITTF refers to the hitting implement as a "racket" so I believe that this is the origin of the use of the term "racket". I have also heard people say bats, but not very around here (Texas, USA).  Personally I think that we should follow the hinting of the governing body and standardize the use of this term.  Anyone second or oppose?  If so, perhaps we should make a section at the top of the talk page saying what term that this article should use.
 * Cryptor3 14:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * All I know is that people in my part of Europe ALWAYS call that thing a bat. Never a paddle, let alone a racket. Could be that the "racket" term is a bit of a thing of the past. If anything, we can't just nuke one or two terms in favour of another. People wouldn't know WTH we are talking about. Wit 20:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't know why the ITTF would call it a racket though as it is by definition not a racket. Don't ask me though. Someone call the ITTF! Simon j Taylor 18:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Someone just changed all usage in the article from racket to bat. Google shows Bat used 687Kx in association with "table tennis", paddle 622K times and racquet 779Kx and racket 762Kx. So looks like the 2 spellings of racket win in terms of popularity.Lumos3 11:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If anything, it needs to be consistent. A compromise will never work.
 * PS: if a sports site/page covers both tennis and table tennis, chances are that the terms "racket" and "table tennis" will appear on the same page. That said, yours is the the first scientific argument I've read about this! Kudos. If you decide to change something, please change it as consistently as that 'someone' just did. That edit was anonymous but not without 'love' LOL. Wit 20:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's weigh it up:

The ITTF rules call it a racquet and it gets more google hits.

No-one uses the word racquet to describe it in europe, where the competition is best (other than in asia). Racquet's definition doesn't work for table tennis - it is not strung, and since a bat is solid, it does work for table tennis.

So it all boils down to: do we choose ITTF rules over the definition of bat and racquet, and do we choose google searches over what people call it in the sport? I say no on both counts. I'm changing everything to bat.SchuBomb 03:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I have described the different use of terminology and used the ITTF useage for the article. Lumos3 21:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well your edit was a good effort. Still I'm puzzled by the use of racket when no one outside ITTF uses it. In fact, I've just shot them an email to ask why they appear to be clinging to the nigh-inappropriate term. Dunno if I'll get an answer but hey :-) Cheers, Wit 15:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Other languages
Are the Korean, etc. names of the sport necessary? Shouldn't they be removed?

Desmond Douglas
The Desmond Douglas article is desperately bad - I wonder if an editor with a knowledge of table tennis could have a go at it, please? BlueValour 21:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Introduction ( Lead section)
According to Lead section on what should go into an introduction the lead section should be capable of describing the game in brief to a new reader. I have added a brief description using the good paragraph on the role of spin that was recently deleted.

I am not sure why this article has begun to list non English names for the sport, as far as I know no other article does this. Apart from ping pong which is in English usage I intend to delete these. Lumos3 12:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I deleted that paragraph because it did (and still does) consist almost entirely of unsourced PoV material. Looking at the introduction now, I see the same thing: "demands possibly the quickest reactions of any sport.", "Spin combined with speed makes table tennis an exciting sport to play as well as to watch.", "what seems impossible to the untrained eye.". Verifiability requires that all such statements have citations from reliable sources. I note further that the responsibility is on editors wishing to include material to provide sources, not on those wishing to remove it. Cheers --Pak21 14:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Good grade
The Game Play section had a score of 10.4 in Microsoft Word (after using it to correct it). Congrats to the writers! --Ashfire908 20:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Physics of Table Tennis
Is the physics section really necessary? The Magnus Effect discussion probably belongs somewhere, but I find the implication that the ball defies Newtonian physics a little ridiculous. Gmarsden 01:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC). I also don't see the point in this section 194.200.145.5 09:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Ping Pong
Needs a section about the Ping Pong Ball trick that can be seen in foreign places. KTHNX
 * LOL maybe so (but the problem would be how to word it within wikip rules) Wit 19:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Ringworm?
The recently deleted section about CSUS was indeed a bit ...ummm... urban, but I really liked the "ringworm" remarks. If only because it's true - in a way. You can seriously bruise someone if a good smash hits the skin directly. Most often the bruise will look like a small hicky or a red circle (with a white center - like the traffic sign that says "no traffic here"). Some people will come out of a training session all covered in mini-hickeys. Try and explain THAT to the wife eh.

Anyway, what I mean to say is that I kinda liked what was said, although it should really come with a disclaimer that it's about the humourous side-effects of TT rather than the dry stuff about history and Speed/Spin/Control scores. A trivia section would be a nice place for stuff like that. Am I too frivolous? PS: I did NOT add all that stuff. It just raised a smile -- and a nod FTM Wit 21:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Most popular sport in the world?
Near the very beginning, the text states that table tennis is the most popular sport in the world in terms of player numbers. A reference is given, but according to the reference itself, volleyball is at the top while table tennis is third. Revise to "among the most popular"? Aahchiou 21:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Besides, that sites, that quotes the FIVB and FIBA as a source, points out many inconsistencies. It is not clearly a reliable source. Usually football (soccer) is considered the most popular sport and that statement is in the very beginning of the article here in Wikipedia. Nazroon 19:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Slight Vandalism
Removed some slight vandalism at the front of the page.

Truman1177 01:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I also removed some vandalism in the first two or three paragraphs where someone claimed to be the master of all things ping-pong.

Photo of Waldner at the top of article.
I am compelled to point out that the photo of Waldner at the title was NOT taken at the '04 Olympics. To my best knowledge, it was taken at the 2002 China vs. World All Stars challenge at Kuala Lumpur Malaysia.

Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.51.48.41 (talk) 03:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

Grip
An image comparing the several different types of grip would be a really handy addition to the article. It could either show several photographs of the different types of grip or show a simplified line diagram. Either way would be good. Can anyone do something like this? Esn 10:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Surnames in Korean an Chinese Language
In Korean and Chinese languages surnames are in the beginning not the end. For instance, Wang is the surname of Wang Nan, Wang Liqin, Wang Hao, etc. Kim is the surname oh Kim Taek Soo, Kim Kyung Ah, Kim Tae Hoon, etc.

Seemiller and V Grip
Those grips are very rare and Seemiller is just a variation of shakehand.
 * Sorry Tosq, but if not here, where will people ever learn that there are more ways to hold a bat/racket? Seemiller and V-grip are in fact quite interesting, in that these grips perfectly suit some players with non-standard playing styles. And yes, I agree that today's world class players will probably stay away from them. Worse yet. If Ma Lin retires, then there won't be any major penholders left. Wit 11:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry but if you want include Seemiller, why don't you include Hasegawa grip and Deng Yaping grip? Both had quite unusual Shakehand grips and good results (better than Seemiller). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.81.96.245 (talk) 22:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

Table Tennis Clubs
A list of table tennis clubs would be very useful for finding out more widespread information on the sport. There are many types of sports clubs listed on wikipedia so why not table tennis?
 * 3E's Table Tennis Club
 * Falkenbergs_BTK

Rockstar disambiguation
Isn't the rockstar disambiguation advertising? It seems to me that there isn't a lot of confusion over the difference between real table tennis and this video game. I also imagine that the video game isn't the only "table tennis" game that has been or is on the market. Why does it get this special treatment?


 * Well, the name of the game is Rockstar Table Tennis, so it makes sense that someone looking for the game would just type "table tennis" to search for the game, and it is the only major Table Tennis game released for the next gen systems. If you ask me it makes sense that there would be a link to the game.