Talk:Tabriz/Archive 1

The Saka that allegedly killed Cyrus the Great were not Turks and dwelled in north eastern parts of Iran not north west.

Tabriz capatle of Armenia?
tabriz always have belong to turks

Bazar
The great bazar of tabriz is the worlds biggest covered traditional bazar. It has unique and wonderfull architecture.Lots of tourist every year stop by there to enjoy the city's heart working.Also, Mozaffarye Bazar of carpet,which is the world's famouse carpet center and market in in this bazar. The bazar includes different parts called "Raste". there are almost all the things available in this Bazar namely:cloth,eadibles,cunsumer goods,cosmetics, carpet,stationary,sweet and chocolates, etc.

There is no discussion about Bazar or a picture of it. Bazar has a significant economical, cultural and historical role in Tabriz. Mahanchian 14:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

"Chocolate City of Iran"? Not really?

Changes to Famous People and City of First sections
Hi, I have noticed that some changes have been made to Tabriz Article. Generally I think this way it's better. This makes the article shorter and more pleasent to read. But I have some points to make: 1. I think The city of firsts section is important enough to remain in the main article. As the case is in the Persian version of the article. 2. The issue that Tabriz is the city of firsts in Iran is not what Tabrizis believe. It's a documented fact. 3. Shortenening the list of famous Tabrizis in Tabriz article and moving the remaining names to a seperate article may be arbitrary in that which names should remain in the main article. A better way of cleaning up this section may be categorising the list and allowing all names to remian in Tabriz article as it is done in Isfahan article. 4. Besodes in articles about other cities all famous people are included and the list is not shortened. So either we should follow the suit in Tabriz article or there shoud be a wikipedia clean up policy which applies the other cities as well.

Please discuss these points so that we can decide weather we should restore the article to the previous versions or not. Regards,--Faucon7 21:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * What about the list of Iranians article? We can put the places of birth of the famous people.Azerbaijani 23:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The mis-spelled name "Mohammad Hoseyn Behjat Tabrizi (Shahriyar)" under this section is linking to a nonexistent article. It should be changed to "Seyyed Mohammad Hossein Behjat-Tabrizi" or better changed to "Shahriar" as a better known name. AMoo-Miki 04:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Changes
Hey. Please use the talk page and get consensus before changing the article that much. Thanks.Azerbaijani 14:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Azar means fire, Azer means nothing
Dear friends,

please respect the fact that in Iran, the province has always been called Azarbaijan, reflecting the original etymology of the word "azar". There is no province called Azerbaijan in Iran - as simple as that. While the newly created republic of Arran, which was renamed to Azerbaijan by the Sowjets, may write its name differently, which is perfectly fine, in Iran, we still keep the original denomination and orthography. Thanks, Babak.


 * In support of Babak, may I refer you to: ? --BF 12:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Stop adding phony 'Armenian' references to Tabriz
Backed by their Russian puppet masters, Armenians have had continuous unfounded claims about the geographic extent of their imaginary 'empire' throughout their well-oiled fabricated history.

Claiming an Armenian naming origin or an administrative reference to Tabriz is just another blatant example of such cases. Just numerically speaking, even if all Armenian population of the 3rd century BC combined were capable of administering such a large municipality as Tabriz (which is very well doubted considering their present day state), these claims seem very unlikely. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.147.67.12 (talk • contribs).


 * The information that you are trying to remove is referenced, authoritative, and most importantly, unbiased (Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2007 - not an Armenian source). The following site also says that Tabriz was the capital of Armenia in the 3rd century. Please provide some sources to back your claims. I should also add that back then, Armenia was much larger in terms of population and territory, and was an important regional power throughout Antiquity and the Middle Ages. Read about the History of Armenia. -- Davo88 20:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Respectfully: the references you provided claiming Armenian origin for Tabriz are either the secondary sources referring to the fabricated primary records or are simply the fabricated primary records themselves. The main activity of the Armenian propaganda machine has been to claim 'Armenian' origin to other people's lands and national heritage.  This is indeed a very sad situation for the Armenian people themselves where a fake sense of national history is being systematically injected into their national identity.  Please note that such false 'Armenian' claims to the city of Tabriz will not only produce any positive result on the daily lives or statuses of your fellow Armenians living anywhere in the world, but also will unify all Azerbaijanis against them.  This is to the detriment of the Armenians.  I am not certain if the author of the above comments is aware of the tiny Armenian population who are still residing in Tabriz that may be negatively impacted as a result.  This has also been the case for the Armenian minorities in the Republic of Azerbaijan and Turkey that have historically suffered great losses because of the Armenian atrocities or propaganda against the Turkic interests. If the World Peace is what we are all after, please refrain from such activities which bear no positive fruit but self-destruction and misery. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.147.67.12 (talk) 23:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Blasphemy! Your "threats" do not scare me or any of my compatriots in Iran. First of all, I hope you're aware of the existence of the Iranian government, which would want to defend its citizens and its territorial integrity. Secondly, I hope you're also aware of the existence of the Republic of Armenia, which would want to defend Armenian interests inside and outside its borders. Such behavior will take you/the Azeris nowhere... -- Davo88 23:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Just to say: yes, Britanica and Encatra can not be used when there are academic recognized sources. till you found that kind of sources or even sources with have the same prestige of Britanica (e.g. encyclopedia of Islam, Iranica,...) you just wasted your time. But after that don't hesitate to come back--Pejman47 00:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Encarta article is written by whom? Armenian professor Ronald Grigor Suny? Where's the full citation? Where's the text, or at least the full paragraph? And why doesn't any major Armenian source mention such an important piece of info as "capital of Armenia"? One Encarta is not enough - it's not an encyclopedia on the level of Britannica, Great Soviet or Iranica.

Then, what period does it cover? Only the rule of Tiridates III, who ruled roughly from 287/298-330 AD. Hence, Tabriz could have been capital only at that time.

Meanwhile, far more important, Armenia was a vassal state, not some independent country, and was part of Roman Empire and Sassanid Persia at the time. That's why Tiridates, who grew up in Rome, was appointed as a king by Roman emperor Diocletian and later his son, the next king, was imprisoned by shah Shapor II of Persia.

What's more, Tiridates III, like his entire Armenian branch of the Arsacid dynasty, were not ethnic Armenians, but were ethnic Parthians. All of this of course must be reflected in the article.

This is proven by such a credible and scholarly source as The Cambridge History of Iran, v. 3. The Seleucid, Parthian and Sassanian periods /edited by Ehsan Yarshater. Published by Cambridge University Press, 1983, ISBN 052120092X, p. 518, which correctly identifies the vassal kings of Armenia, and specifically Tiridates III, as ethnically Parthian (albeit with a Median forbear):

"When the Parthians were overthrown by the Sasanians in AD 226, the old Armenian royal house became redoubtable foes of the new Great Kings of Iran. The Armenian Arsacids remained, as they claimed, the champions of Iranian legitimacy. This helps to explain the singular bitterness of the relations between Arsacid Armenia and Sasanian Iran, extending right up to and even after the abolition of the Armenians Arsacid dynasty in 428. We are further confronted with the singular spectacle of a Parthian king, Tiridates III, whose forbear, Tiridates I, was a Magian who was forbidden to defile the sea by sailing to Rome in a boat, being the first ruler of a substantial kindgdom to embrace Christianity as the state religion (traditionally, in AD 301). We even have a dynasty of Patriarchs of the Armenian Church, descending from the Parthian nobleman who became St Gregory the Illuminator, being proudly remembered by the Armenian Church to ths day by the surname Partev, the Parthian." --adil 03:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Details about Armenia's sovereignty status, whether they are factual or not, shouldn't be mentioned because they are irrelevant to Tabriz. I posted 2 sources (one from Encarta, and the other from that other site), and you are not satisfied, while you thought that 2 sources are enough for the Tigranes article so that you'd push your POV there? Shameless double-standards... -- Davo88 03:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * On Tigranes the Great -- I've posted not two sources, but a dozen, all of them verifiable and from academic sources. Encarta is not verifiable, and it contradicts this source among others: "It was the capital of Azarbaijan in the 3rd century A.D."
 * Meanwhile the problem is not as much Armenia's sovereignty, although that in itself is very important and precludes loud proclamations as "catital of Armenia", but the fact that Tiridates, like his whole Arsacid dynasty, were Parthians, of Iranic origin. And that certainly should be reflected in the article.
 * Tabriz is firmly in the Iranian Plateau and regarded as part of what is recognized as Iran. At that time -- 3rd century AD -- a powerful dynasty of Sasanids ruled Iran. Hence, it could never have been with majority of ethnic Armenians or be a capital of ethnic Armenians. It could have been some kind of a temporary or secondary capital for the IRANIC dynasty that ruled the vassal Armenia kingdom and its population (which aside from Armenians included many Jews, as well as other Hellenic, Iranic and Caucasian peoples).
 * Here's what we know about the Sasanid Empire: "Ardashir I, a king of Persis, defeats the Parthian king Artabanos IV and two years later is crowned as the first Sasanian king in 226 AD. His son, Shapur I, expands the borders to include all of modern Iran and parts of Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and the Gulf Coast of the Arabian peninsula."
 * Here's a map of the Sasanid empire: "The Sassanids established an empire roughly within the frontiers achieved by the Achaemenids, with the capital at Ctesiphon. ... Shahpur I (240-272 CE), son and successor of Ardeshir, waged successful campaigns against the Romans and in 260 CE even took the emperor Valerian prisoner. Between 260 and 263 CE he had lost his conquest to Odenathus, and ally of Rome. Shapur II (ruled 309-379 CE) regained the lost territories, however, in three successive wars with the Romans."
 * And "Geographically, the Sassanid empire was almost exactly the Achaemenid territory, with capital at Ctesiphon"

--adil 06:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Maulana?
Why is Maulana Jalal ad-Din Rumi referenced in the "Culture" section? He did not live/compose poetry in Tabriz. He just assumed that his beloved (who may in fact have been killed by Maulana's followers) would have left for Tabriz. I think the verse should be removed. Or we should at least add that it was Shams who is Tabrizi, not Jalal ad-Din Rumi Mutluluk 21:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Tabriz has been put under ‘protection’.
This protection is a slap on the face of truth and justice. This protection helps an article with several unconfirmed and seriously biased references, an article that needs editing and inclusion of verifiable sources, and an article that promotes nothing but ethnic hatred and destruction.

Tabriz,
 * Ah my immortal beauty,
 * My eternal mother,
 * My proud past,
 * My humble present,
 * My hopeful future,

Don't they know you have seen countless foreign invasions, sieges, plunders, destructions, and humiliations?

And, don't they remember every time you have emerged triumphant and ever glowing? And, their dull faces vanished in oblivion

You endured while they perished, you prospered while they declined, and you were blissful while they retreated into their own agony.

Protecting a biased article is just a timid last resort of your coward enemies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.193.216.191 (talk) 07:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC).
 * I have had to semiprotect the article because it is quite likely that a banned user took place in the discussion. The easiest way to edit a semiprotected article is to request changes on the talk page (supporting it by WP:RS). Alternatively you can get yourself an account Alex Bakharev 08:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Anon, what are you talking about? One thing I see is you trying add that the city was Turkic in the 3rd century!Azerbaijani 13:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

azerbaijan has been the land of turks for 8000 years.
Dear readers of Wikipedia as a historian, I know and most of the historian believe that Azerbaijan had been the home land of turks for more than 8000 years. You can refer to the historical refrences in libraries of Iran, Turkey, Europe and U.S. The name of Azerbaijan is a combination of az= a tribe of turks, ar= man, bay= manhood, jan= land, if you notice it means the land of men and manhood. Some people who think that it is a persain word are making a big mistake. No persian has ever lived in Azerbaijan, then how they were able to name it? In the case of Armenians they have called Tabriz or Azerbaijan in their own tounge and this does not mean that the words are Armenian. Moreover if they think that they are so clever they can protect their own land from Russians and persians. Tabriz is a city in Northern Azerbaijan which for the time being is located inside the political boundaries of iran. New archeological inspection in Tabriz has proved its existence in 6000 years ago whose citizens were undoubtyedly turks.

Thank you Wiki —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.219.128.210 (talk) 13:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC).


 * lol...thats funny because recent DNA evidenece has shown that over 80% of the azeris are persian. Language does not always prove. ethnicity


 * Is this a joke?Azerbaijani 23:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It 's not important from when people of Azarbaijan started to speak in Turkic, what is important and what is the truth is that Azarbaijan was always part of Iran and will be (even what you say 6000 years ago!). I really get offended by this "Tabriz is a city in Northern Azerbaijan which for the time being is located inside the political boundaries of iran." --Pejman47 00:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

most of that crap comes from Azerbajan the country..they are just trying to make a land grabe. DNA has proven that the two Azeris are different origins


 * You tell me where is Iran? Today's Iran is not yesterday's Iran. Because there wasn't any Iran before 1929. and before that whatever empire was on power, had different Borders, all the time, not even close to Iran's border. Empires had different lands and countries under their control. Just like the Roman Empire!

wtf...yes there was an iran before 1929. Iranians have been calling their country iran for over 1000 years. do your research instead of spitting crap. Its the rest of the world has been calling iran persia. Iran = Persia


 * in 1929 only the Qajar was replaced with Pahlavi dynasty. Tell the one who brain-washed you, that he is not at all good at it. خوش گلمیز--Pejman47 11:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * خوش گلمیز! who tried to teach you turkish like this? there is no source that shows iran as a single united country before 1929! but there are documents today that shows the IRI and it's dependents are not being honest.
 * This is not a forum. You can take your outrageous and ridiculous theory to one of the thousands of forums on the internet. This is where we talk about improving the article.Azerbaijani 13:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Mr or Ms خوش گلمیز : Wikipedia talk page is not place for slogans.If there is any article-related material, disscuss it here , if there is not , then please don't write here. The fact that disscusion page is editable , shows that vandalism can also be reverted in the talk pages . thankyou , --Alborz Fallah 08:45, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * considering before the migration of 11th C. and there has been nothing mentioned of turks in that region. Also that are the ppl where medians. Plus DNA test have shown that the Azeris in Iran are more relation to Iranians then the Turks


 * Watch this one:.

--BF 12:14, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why User:MikchaelKrostiv reverted me (in his second edit after account establishment). I didn't remove any reference from the article, only added Britannica and other sources, tags to unsourced claims, and improved the quality of the article. Atabek 07:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Citation tag
I am removing the tag, as the article now, after my edits, cites over 10 scholarly sources and I will be adding more. Thanks. Atabek 19:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Tabriz and Gazaca?
The source used for the article as relating Tabriz to Gazaca does not seem correct to me. Gazaca was located much further south, and Tabriz by itself seems to be built in post Islamic era. or maybe they are the same and I'm wrong?! Sharishirin (talk) 01:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a mistake in the Britannica article. Gazaca was the main city of pre-Islamic Atropatene, and Tabriz is the main city of post-Islamic Azerbaijan but they do not refer to a same geographical place. Gazaca is generally associated with riun mounds of Laylan and the nearby Takhti Suleiman southeast of lake Urmia. Read this article by prof. Mary Boyce; and I'm going to remove false info from the page. Sharishirin (talk) 07:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The article largely and inaccurately confuses Tabriz with Gazaca. Based on long geographic distance these two cities cannot be regarded as the same. I remove parts of the arilce with contains such a mistake. Sharishirin (talk) 11:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Tag on Constitutional Revolution
I added a reference citing that the Iranian Constitutional Revolution of 1906 started in Tabriz, replacing the fact tag. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 16:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed it's most powerful stronghold was Tabriz: it first begin in Tehran, but after Mozaffar al-Din Shah, the next king Mohammad ali shah closed the parliament and cancelled the constitution laws , the Tabriz alone get against it and battled until Gilani and Esfahani's invaded the Shah forces in Tehran and bring back the parliament to power. Then the revolution didn't actually begin in Tabriz itself, but the most powerful supporter of the revolution was Tabrizians.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Page tags
It would be useful if the taks coudl be moved to teh section(s) where they apply, so our editing coudl be focussed there. Thanks AndrewRT(Talk) 22:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Demography of Tabriz
Dear Friends

According to the last National Iranian Census (2006 census) Tabriz had a population of 1,597,312. which in ranking of population it is the 6th city in Iran After Tehran, Mashad, Esfahan, Karaj and Shiraz. Please refer to this site which is the offical site of Iran national Portal of Statistics (Sazmane meli amar Iran): http://www.sci.org.ir/portal/faces/public/census85/census85.natayej

and check the population of cities by age. So I think it is better to correct the information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unforgiven1975 (talk • contribs) 22:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Peyman, Azerbaijani has two scripts, hence there is no reason to remove one of the scripts spelling the name of the city, majority of which are Azeris. Please, reconsider your POV in this regard. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 09:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Perso-Arabic script has been the script of Iranian Azerbaijanis for long time and the Turkish alphabet is a new one itself (not only in Azerbaijan rep., but also in Turkey itself) , and because the number of Azeris in Iran are more than anywhere else , (Including Azerbaijan rep. and Turkey ) , then it seems reasonable to mention the Perso-Arabic script of Azeri in the article .The Azeri with the Turkish alphabet can also be mentioned in the article alongside the Perso-Arabic script.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear Alborz, the Azerbaijani language recognized internationally, including by ISO and other encoding standards, has a Latin alphabet. Just as clarification, Azerbaijani Latin script is different from what you call "Turkish alphabet", because there are extra letters for sounds. I don't see why showing Azeri Latin spelling in Tabriz article is such a big issue. Azeri Wikipedia for example has both Latin and Arabic scripts in titles and interface.Atabek (talk) 13:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As I said, there is no problem in using the Latin alphabet in writing Azeri Turkish . That may show the friendship of the people in two sides of Aras river and is great .But deleting the تبریز and counting it as only Persian (and not azeri), may induce the idea that the only recognized and dominant script of azeri is the Latin one.I'm not asking to delete the Latin Azeri , but I'm saying to include the Perso-Arabic Azeri , and not to use the title Azeri only for the Latin one . In Azeri Wikipedia , many articles are in both scripts.Saghol.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 14:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I added both of them; as you have suggested. Cheers to both of you. --Pejman47 (talk) 17:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I agree on that. Many Azeri speakers use Arabic script, so it's natural to cite the transliteration in both Arabic and Latin scripts. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 16:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's good! Many Azeri publications are in Perso-Arabic script in Iran.That's not mere Arabic script because many signs of it does not exist in Arabic (e.g:four letters: پ [p], چ [ʧ], ژ [ʒ], and گ [g]. )--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:46, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Restored several references, which pertained to etymology of Tabriz. Still not clear as to why they were removed over time, all sources seem to be valid and neutral. Atabek (talk) 23:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Tabriz being the center of Atropatene has nothing to do with the etymology of Tabriz, it's irrelevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurdo777 (talk • contribs) 00:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It only refers to the fact that ancient Gazaca was in the location where Tabriz is now. That's historical reference, and I am not sure why would this cause opposition at all. Atabek (talk) 00:40, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

cause it has nothing to do with the name of Tabriz! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurdo777 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It has to do with the history of the city, leading to its establishment as Tabriz. Still not clear why sourced reference is causing so much concern. Are you disputing that Gazaca was a capital of Atropatene and it was where Tabriz is now? Atabek (talk) 03:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I dispute, simply because they are different; Gazaca was not where Tabriz is now. Gazaca stood south of lake Urmia immediately west of Takht-i Suleyman, and that has hundreds of kilometres geographic distance with Tabriz in northeast of lake Urmia. Moreover all neutral sources you are refering to are about Gazaca, and confising these two cities is like confusing Tehran with Persepolis. Also I had discussed this issue in a section above, and there had provided Iranica article for Gazaca. Sharishirin (talk) 06:57, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Translit
Babakexorramdin, Azerbaijani language has Latin script, acknowledge by ISO. And this is English Wikipedia. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 22:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Atabak please do not vandalize Iranian articles because you hate me. it is very obviuous from your tedious efforts to make me look bad infornt of admins etc... But as your answer. It is very simple. Azerbaijani language in Iran does not use the latin Scripot which you use. Your alphabet is an alien alphabet. We are not writing the Chinese, Cyrlic etc.. Alphabet after Iranian cities either. The official script of Azerbaijani is this what you may call perso-Arabic. That is nonsense because the alphabet was/is also used for istanbuli Turkish, Kurdish, Uyghur, Urdu etc... All governmental documents and all books and magazines in Azeri language in Iran use this alphabet. All Iranian Azeri cities and persons should use this alphabet. I should add that I have mixed feelings about this alphabet myself but it is the reality.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Please, WP:AGF before accusing others for nothing, I don't see how inserting Latin transliteration of word Tabriz is an act of vandalism. Azerbaijani language as recognized by ISO using Latin script. Google search on Azerbaijani returns more Latin script links than Arabic script ones. Wikipedia Azeri version uses Latin script in main body, and both Latin and Arabic scripts for labels. This is not an Iranian publication but an encyclopedia, and there is only one definition of Azerbaijani language, so having a Latin version along with Arabic is more than appropriate for clarity. If you have problems with this, perhaps we can seek mediator to resolve the problem? Atabek (talk) 15:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you speaking about assume good faith??? After your smear campaign aginst me last week? As to your answer. I am not going to repeat myself. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I think I already explained that Azerbaijani language is officially using Latin script, so there is no reason to get rid of it in the article. Please, assume good faith and refrain from engaging in nationalist conflicts over such minor facts. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 21:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you already explained nothing and if you are really a proponent of two script policy for all Azerbaijani names, then you better start putting the names of the twons in the Republic of Azerbaijan in the Iranian Azeri script. If you do this then we can discuss more.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all, the script is called Arabic alphabet and not "Iranian Azeri" script. Arabic script, although used for many ages in both north and south Azerbaijan due to Islamic influence, was determined not to be a good match for Turkic phonetics in 1920s, and therefore was replaced with Latin script in Azerbaijan and later in Turkey. As far as your proposal goes, the Arabic script is already used in titles for clarity in Azeri Wikipedia. Otherwise, the official script under List of ISO 639-1 codes is Latin. Now if you want to rephrase the language as South Azerbaijani per ISO 639-3 or Ethnologue, then we can discuss that. But as of today neither Arabic- nor Cyrillic-script based Azerbaijani language officially exists. Atabek (talk) 16:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If your source, or any other nonreliable source (has forgotten to mention it or do not mention it purposedly, they better correct their mistake. Azerbaijani is spoken in Iran and it does not use the Elchibey's Latin script. I was not talking about Azerbaijani wikipedia being in two scripts but rather about to include Iranian Azeri script when you are writing about the geographical names in the republic of Azerbaijan. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Latin script has no place or relevance on this page. Azerbaijan Republic neither has the authority nor the mandate to "determine" what script the speakers of Azerbaijani in Iran should use. The vast majority of Azerbaijani-speakers in the world do not use the Latin script. If I was more cynical, I would call this an irredentist attitude.--CreazySuit (talk) 17:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * CreazySuit, your opinion in this case is naturally non-neutral, and thus cannot be taken as decisive anyway. But just as a reminder, Wikipedia does not determine what Azeris in Iran should or should not speak. I think you probably need to review the material above before making emotional comments, citing Azerbaijan Republic here for no known reason. This is ENGLISH Wikipedia, not IRI's state-controlled media to impose, which script should Azerbaijani use. As I said, ISO (which is the main authoritative body on the subject) recognizes Latin script, thus it should appear on the page. Atabek (talk) 23:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I urge you to WP:AGF, and comment on the content, not the other editors. If my opinion is "naturally non-neutral", what would that make your opinion given your track-record on Wikipedia... People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. ISO is not the United Nations or an arbitrating body, Azeri Turki has two scripts, and the Latin script is neither used by the Iranian Azeris nor recognized by Iran, so it has no place or relevance on this page.--CreazySuit (talk) 00:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

CreazySuit, you seem to be quite experienced to study my "track record", especially since the establishment of your history as user long after both ArbCom cases. Thanks for your recommendation, I would suggest you follow the same and WP:AGF before we have to find out the reasons of your interest in specific contributors and the relevance of "track records" in article content discussions. It's irrelevant what is recognized or not by Iran, as Azerbaijani is not a state language of this country, does not develop in context of it, and Wikipedia is not an Iranian publication. It's a free encyclopedia, where articles should be in line with WP:NPOV and ISO, as an international body, would be the most appropriate source in this case. And I am not suggesting to remove Arabic script version, but only suggesting to keep the Latin version in line with ISO. Atabek (talk) 08:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Your argument sounds so strange. In your logic only state languages exists, which is weird. In addition Azerbaijani has constituitional status in Iran, and there are many state newspapers and TV and Radio broadcastings in this Language. Azerbaijani Turkic is spoken some 600 years in Iran and was written the same way as it is today. The Elchibey's Latin script in the Republic of Azerbaijan is some 15 years old.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Atabek, your veiled threats are indicative of the poor behavior I was talking about. I have crossed your path on two or three articles now, and amazingly I always find you engaged in some sort of a personal battle, and it was you again who turned the discussions here personal by calling me "naturally non-neutral". Otherwise, I have absolutely no "specific interest" in you or anything you stand for, I only check Babakexorramdin's contributions periodically to correct his mistakes.

Getting back on the topic at hand, Ethnologue which assigns the ISO numbers has given the Iranian Azeri an ISO number of her own and it mentions that the language uses Perso-Arabic script. Furthermore, Ethnologue states that "North and South Azerbaijani are spoken by one ethnic group. Each language group is reluctant to accept the written form of the other.". --CreazySuit (talk) 13:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

For Atabek ,I can explain about the non-PersoArabic script that there is a relative negative POV among the Iranians in general and Iranian Azeris in particular against it ; Maybe because the religious texts are written in Arabic script, or maybe because of the nationalistic views;anyway, don't get it as unfriendly:that's not personal!--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well,as an original Tabrizi, and a neutral view in this case I can advise a rather non-sensitive approach to this matter.I'm not sure what's the Wikipedia's policy in adding the other languages in English articles. Anyway,I don't like such language as "veiled threats" and etc(CreazySuit).

Sister Cities ?
I don't know what's the exact meaning of "Sister Cities", and also what is the importance of including it. If it means friendship based on language of that cities, then why not including all cities of these countries like Ganja or Ankara and etc. --Alborz Fallah (talk) 15:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

On the Epic of K%C3%B6ro%C4%9Flu
In the event that someone is familiar with the history of the above-mentioned epic, it would be relevant to introduce some appropriate details into the pertinent Wikipedia entry (i.e. here: "Epic of K%C3%B6ro%C4%9Flu"). The river Aras is central to this epic, and as the following remarkably beautiful stage production shows, the libretto is in Persian.


 * A short section of a stage production of Köroğlu, an opera by Uzeyir Hajibeyov, YouTube: (10 min 55 sec).

With kind regards, --BF 02:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC).

The interested may consider the useful remarks, by User:Arkankipcak, placed here:. --BF 14:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC).

Ruins of Rabe Rashidi
Would you let me know who removed my adding subject (Ruins of Rabe Rashidi) to the monument parts of Tabriz? I have been searching for good references and articles for this historical place. But you can see, for example, this web page: [] or go to the Abasi Street in Tabriz and see it!!! So, please and please don't remove it again. Or I ...

And please, can some one tell me how I can upload pictures (pictures of Rabe Rashidi) to the Tabriz web in Wikipedia? Thanks a lot! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yasha Azar (talk • contribs) 21:56, 21 April 2009 (UTC)