Talk:Tacoma, Washington/Archive 1

Merger
for anyone interested...this could be added to this article, or a new article could also be created Kingturtle 00:15 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

What's with the gang section???
Is it really necessary to highlight which gangs are active in which neighborhoods? Tacoma, like most other cities, has some gang activity. Things may have been pretty out of hand 20 years ago, but contrary to what the media tells you, there is not a big gang problem here... If there is no big groundswell of opposition, I'm going to clean that paragraph up in a few days to remove the by-neighborhood shakedown. - Ctb 19:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it would be appropriate to mention the areas that show heavy gang activity, but not necessarily show which gangs inhabit which areas -- unless there has been a notable, ongoing, newsworthy dispute that has otherwise affected the neighbourhoods or the lives of those in those neighbourhoods. Sky 19:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * "131.191.57.233" appears to have reinstated several of the edits I did earlier to remove the geographical descriptions of where gangs are located. (At minimum, there is some issues with "no original research" here as there is no source citation.)  If "131.191.57.233" has any input to the discussion I would expect that he/she would provide it on the talk page.  I'm also going to remove the "methamphetamine capital" reference as there is no source cited on this whatsoever (see here for a non-citation).  I have no illusions that there may be gang activity in Tacoma, but I do not think that it deserves the prominent mention that it is getting in this article.  I'm going to do some minor cleanup at this time.  Subsequently, unless someone has any opposition, I'm going to create a new section in the vein of "negative image of Tacoma" where we can move descriptions of gangs, the Aroma, etc. - Ctb 21:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, this is 131.191.57.233, also known as **N**. Native, live right off of 6th Ave. Anyway, I haven't been back to this article for awhile and I notice that, once again, the gang stuff has been brushed over. I'll refrain from making any edits this time in the spirit of building consensus.


 * This page looks a lot better than when I first found it. The first page read like a cheerleading article, talking about how Tacoma used to be this and that "but it's not anymore!" Tacoma used to smell bad... but not anymore! Tacoma used to have gangs... but not anymore! Look at the convention center and the UW, we're a modern, world-class city! Uhh, I really resent the attempt to pave over Tacoma's history. This has always been a rough-and-tumble town, from the dockwockers and loggers of yore to the military who made So. Tacoma their home starting in the 1930s. IMO, that's part of it's charm.


 * These are the facts. (1) Tacoma still smells. "Total sulfur emissions" may have been reduced, but when the wind blows right, all downtown is still bathed in it. (2) Tacoma has more gang activity than similar-sized cities in the Pacific Northwest. Yes, Hilltop isn't as bad as it was in the 1980s, but it ain't no picnic either. (3) UW is cool, but on the whole the "Downtown Renaissance" sucks. The Convention Center is a stupid building, the Art Museum is ugly, and if one drives along the historic streetcar routes from Stadium to Lincoln, it quickly becomes apparent that the blocks between 13th and 17th are ***the most sterile to be found anywhere***. I have a dog in this fight, because a culture which verbally glosses over the past tends to accept and encourage the same on a physical scale. Tacoma has some of the most interesting neighborhoods and business districts to be found anywhere, and I would hate to see that lost in the name of "revitalization."


 * Let's figure out how to discuss the unsavory aspects of the T-A-C. I will concede that perhaps my detailed descriptions of which gangs own what turf don't belong in the main article, but the current text is just laughable. "Tacoma became infamous for gang activity in the 1980s and early 1990s, but it has declined significantly in recent years. Areas formerly associated with gang activity, such as Hilltop, have been significantly cleaned up." Yeeeaaah... let's make this article a true depiction of Tacoma, from the shiny and clean to the grimy and unsavory. I'll hold on edits for the time being.

-N, April 29th, 2006


 * San Jose, California, is the "methamphetamine capital" of America.

Gangs are in every large US city, I don't see how that assists the information concerning Tacoma. I moved the gang section to history where I believe it is more appropriate than "revitalization."

---AceLt.


 * I agree with below and above, the gangs references on the main page should be brief. But the current text is *LAUGHABLE*. "but it has declined significantly in recent years as many neighborhoods have enacted community policing and other policies." It's a rose-colored, sure-we-were-ghetto-but-no-more attitude. NOT true. We've got people in East Tacoma spraying houses with bullets and killing 3 at a time, we've got people shooting up the mall and the freeway and all over the freakin' place. YES, this stuff happens in Chicago, Houston, etcetera - but it doesn't happen with nearly the same frequency in Seattle or Portland, which are comparable, larger cities.


 * So, let's tell the world what we are. We're an insanely beautiful city with a wonderfully laid-back citizenry. We've got a bit of a crime problem, and when the wind is right the whole place smells pretty bad. Our port is second to none, and our elected officials' inferiority complex has led them to drop millions on stupid buildings like the convention center, then try to close fire stations to recover the debt. Basically, we're an all-American city, with shiny sides and dirty sides and bright sides and quite a few dark sides. But we're not yuppie-friendly; go to Bellevue or Puyallup.

If you really want a discussion of the history of Tacoma gangs, perhaps it could be on a separate linked page like the neighborhoods. However, other than mentioning gangs on the front page, I don't we necessarily want to dovote a huge amount of space to it there.

--AceLT 01:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

"We've got people in East Tacoma spraying houses with bullets and killing 3 at a time,"

Most big cities have gang problems even with multiple deaths. However, I have not seen it on any of their front pages. Perhaps you might try placing some of the content on the East Tacoma area section.

--AceLT 19:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You're missing the point though. Yes, places like Chicago or Houston have the same problems, but if you actually compare statistics we are way above cities like Seattle or Portland, which are the most comparable. Therefore, it is disingenuous to talk about gang activity as if it all occured in the past.

citation needed for drive by section.

--AceLT 19:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

"Today, Crime activity is rising in East Tacoma. Drive-bys are increasing, and police fear it might reach the hundreds as seen in the hilltops in the old days. Car jackings are also common near the east side and near the Tacoma mall and downtown. (citation needed) "

I don't see any cite for any of these statements.

--AceLT 19:36, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey,i Live In East side Tacoma,and i can tell you gangs are very much active.I see a lot of gang activity on 44 ave all the time.East side piru blood,and Native gangsta blood are active,so it is dumb to say tacoma has dealled with its gang problem —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.101.230 (talk) 06:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Sister City: Takuma
I reinstated Takuma to the list of sister cities. It was mentioned in the newspaper recently and a Google search will list some sites such as this that confirm this. --Chris S. 02:27, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
 * That site is hardly authoratative compared to the City of Tacoma website and the Sister Cities International website, neither of which lists Takuma. I don't know if there maybe was a previous association that no longer exists, or if they're only informally 'sisters' (probably based on the similarity between the names), but clearly Tacoma and Takuma are NOT officially sister cities. I think it should be left off, at least until it can be determined if they were once sisters, or are just informal sisters, so which ever it is can be specified. Niteowlneils 03:03, 10 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Ok, I see. I was looking for a list like that myself.  I wonder, though, where people got this idea?  Apparently people think there is some connection. The Takuma website in Japanese even has something about Tacoma - http://www.town.takuma.kagawa.jp/tiea/tieah3.htm.  詫間 is Takuma and タコマ is Tacoma on that page. But my Japanese is very basic, so I can't tell if there is a reference to sister cities. It does mention a party, a baseball game, and elementary school students from Tacoma. Also this page mentions that Tacoma & Takuma were to enter a sister-city relationship in 1991. And this Seattle-based Japanese-American newspaper says they are sister cities.  Anyway, I wonder where they got this idea. --Chris S. 09:59, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
 * My guess it that it's most likely an informal term based on the shared name, and/or the fact that the baseball games between Tacoma teams and Takuma are connected to the Sister City program ("The Tacoma-Pierce County Sister City Cultural Baseball Exchange has existed for over 14 years between Tacoma high school baseball players and players from Takuma and Kitakyushu, Japan.", even tho' the relation developed thru the sister status with Kitakyushu. Niteowlneils 19:07, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Opening section needs revision
The opening section of Tacoma needs some revision. It's not very concise, nor does it give a general overview of the history, spirit, and pattern of events that occur here, nor does it highlight recent events that have taken place here like Downtown revitalization or the like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tokamak85 (talk • contribs) 22:47, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

racism
why no talk of the racism in tacoma like the riots in april 1968 where half of hill top was destroyed or the opression of the natives in tacoma by the whites? or the raceism by the whites against the chinese in the late 1800? wtf is this just some lame ass happy city BS? tacomas a corupt city that KKK history raceism and genocide talk about that..

tacomas a city built on blood and bones of slaugthered natives i have livied here my whole life its run by a corupt cityu councel and a croupet police cheif its a hell hole of raceism and oppresion

(unsigned comments by 24.19.89.36)


 * Feel free to add information on all of the above to the article. --Lukobe 04:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow. That applies if you live in Hilltop maybe. Downtown there's a slight chance. But look at the rest of Tacoma and you won't find any of this corruption and bloodshed and slaughter and racism and genocide that you're bitching about. I live there, and have for my whole life. A corupt city council. Yeah. That's why the city is spending millions of dollars on the public schools this year with remodeling, special ed teachers, and more staff. Uh-huh. Corupt police chief? Give me one reason that he's corrupt.

Javatom 16:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I added the City of Tacoma Population by year
I added the City of Tacoma Population by year history from 1910 thru 2000. JeffreyAllen1975 05:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Blogs
Below is the Wiki policy on Blogs:

Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to. Although there are exceptions, such as when the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or if the website is of particularly high standard. --AceLT 17:40, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * While Tacoma has an active blogging community, the blogs that should be listed on Wikipedia should be blogs that are regularly updated and regularly write about Tacoma. The Flying Turtle Post Intelligencer, Cassioposa, ErikEmery are mostly personal sites that write about Tacoma infrequently compared to the other sites listed. I removed Tacomaness because it posts no more than once every three months.


 * I also clarified the relationship of the blogs to FeedTacoma. Calling blogs "contributors" makes it seem as if the writers are writing for FeedTacoma on FeedTacoma's site, when they are writing on their own site and an RSS feed is published on FeedTacoma. From FeedTacoma users can follow the link to the site. I would be open to other ways of describing the relationship but I feel "contributor" is not the correct term for Wikipedia.
 * Erikemery 23:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Someone just tried to remove the blogs wholescale. Must be a msm employee.
 * --67.40.213.251 (talk) 04:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope. It was me. I'm a regular lurking reader of Exit133, ErikEmery's blog, In-Tacoma.net, Thrice All American, Tickle Me Tacoma, and Not Just for Crackheads. They often have good info. But WP:EL says that "links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority" should normally be avoided. While I respect the work that the Tacoma bloggers do, I don't think any of the authors could be considered a recognized authority on Tacoma, Washington. I vaguely remember Exit133 getting a mention in the News Tribune, so depending on what they said, it might qualify. I'd like to discuss this more before I delete it again, in case I'm misunderstanding the policy. Travisl (talk) 19:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Tap tap tap. Is this thing on? It's been a week, and I've heard no justification that any of the blogs listed are "recognized authorities" on Tacoma. Anybody? Travisl (talk) 16:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Feel free to get rid of 'em. I only didn't respond because I agreed with you. Murderbike (talk) 17:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Glad to know I'm not 100% wrong on this. Deleted them again. Travisl (talk) 05:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest that Exit133 is a recognized authority that has been cited by the Business Examiner, the Tribune, and other blogs as a source. It is also a registered company, something I don't think any of the blogs previously listed can say. It is a news source in a "blog style" written fairly objectively, updated frequently, and can regularly break news. I would suggest adding it as an "on-line news source." Thoughts? Erikemery (talk) 21:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup. Exit133 was the one exception I called out on March 18. If you can find the cite in the News Tribune where they reference it as a recognized authority, I'd recommend it be mentioned. I don't think a mention in the Trib's Grit City blog would count though. Travisl (talk) 06:49, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * To prevent others removing it, I would suggest first writing up an article about Exit133 on Wikipedia. A quick search suggested that there should be enough reliable sources to document the site's notability; and having it notable enough for an article can help justify its inclusion here if anyone questions it later. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know enough about starting a page, but I think Barek is probably right. As to the "authority" question I know from some government employees that Exit133 is treated as media and Derek Young, the owner, is a weekly contributor on KUOW about Tacoma. As to actual citations, my Google Reader pulled up a few mentions from the last year that are on the Tribune's Editorial Page blog or the Editor's blog: http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/oped?title=more_county_charter_amendments_on_deck&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1, http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/oped?title=win_for_north_shore_developer&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1, http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/oped?title=spare_a_few_bucks_for_first_night&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1, http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/editors?title=the_closing_of_tag&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1. I think it's a pretty good list of references for breaking news and scoops. I should also mention that I am a frequent writer at Exit133, so I probably shouldn't be involved in creating an Exit133 page if there should be one. Erikemery (talk) 23:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, if a mention in the dead-tree News Tribune bestows notability -- even if blogs.thenewstribune.com doesn't -- then maybe Erik's blog should get a mention. See . Not to take away from Erik's writing, but I'm surprised that he got a mainstream mention before Exit133.Travisl (talk) 00:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks Travisl, but that was a pretty random quote. :) I do believe Exit133 has been cited in print, thus beating me, but my Google Reader search doesn't cover that. 24.19.165.4 (talk) 22:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Tacoma or Greater Tacoma Area
The Article lists Pierce College, and Pacific Lutheren University as being in Tacoma, when neither are actually within Tacoma City limits. Pierce College is in Lakewood, with a satellite in Puyallup, and PLU is in Parkland. All of these locations are definately in the Greater Tacoma Area, but if this is about Tacoma the city, then maybe this section should be clarified?

--Edited Education section to reflect the above data (location of PLU and Pierce College) As well added a new paragraph listing most of the private schools in Tacoma.--Saul T 14:59, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Population
The population figures in this article have not been cited. As such, I have removed them. I have changed the population figures to the 2005 census estimates. There were figures within this article claiming population estimates as recent as 2006, but the census has not released any information that recent. If anyone feels that this information is wrong or the 2006 estimates can be cited, feel free to change it. Ajwebb 18:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Within the past years, it broke news statewide that Tacoma surpassed Spokane's population, retaking its place as the 2nd largest city in the state. Unfortunately I can't remember when that broke, so would take me awhile to find the local news article about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chibiabos (talk • contribs)
 * It was speculated briefly (see Doug Clark, "We need to soften the blow for the population-challenged", (Spokane) Spokesman Review, Mar 6, 2005) that Tacoma had briefly surpassed Spokane, but April 1, 2006 numbers released by the state Office of Financial Management keep Spokane officially at number 2.  Travisl 04:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

New Picture
Hey, what's the deal with the 20 year-old picture? is there anywhere or anyone who can get us an updated, newer picture? Stevo D 01:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I could. All anyone needs to do is go down Ruston Way a bit and take a picture standing on the pathway. I assume that's where that picture was taken from. Next sunny day I might go down there. --Liface 02:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Decline
The article needs some clarification on what is meant by the "decline" that is mentioned in the intro. From what I can see on the population table, the city never lost population. -newkai t-c 19:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Picture Issues, Part 2
I again raise the issue that we need a new picture of Tacoma's skyline. we don't have one (except for the 25 year old picture) and even then, it isn't very characteristic of the city, covering only a small portion of the city's skyline. I again, propose (plea?) that someone from Tacoma can take a good picture of the city's skyline. Stevo D 09:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Smell
I don't see any mention of the horrible wreak as one drives through Tacoma?? Ask anybody in Puget Sound and they'll tell you "The Tacoma smell has at least got better over the last 20 years," meaning it's widespread local knowledge. Google turns up almost half a million results for tacoma smell. FireWeed 00:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The famed "Tacoma Aroma" is practically non-existent now. Maybe only a mention in the history section is warranted. Jopgaard 01:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Already in the article, at Tacoma, Washington. Travisl 18:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I lived in Tacoma for over 15 years, and honestly, outside of an occaisional whiff of industrial solvents in Nally Valley (every city has industrial sections), I have Never noticed a "Tacoma Aroma" I have always felt that the whole concept was either a) Seattlites who needed something to pick on Tacomites about, or b) ancient history/urban legend or c) both.--Saul T 13:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Riots?
Does this:

Tacoma has recently been featured on the popular video website YouTube after postings of a riot in which police used tear gas and rubber bullets to disperse a peaceful protest, seen here: Tacoma Police Riot

belong in the article? Not that the incident happened, but the post to a specific YouTube video, etc.?

Editing to remove "peaceful" because of police allegations of barricades thrown.

KevinPuj 21:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Category:People from Tacoma
To do (by someone else, or by me when I get time): Gut the "Noteworthy Tacomans" section, and replace it with a link to Category:People from Tacoma, but make sure they're all listed in there first. Travisl 21:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Category: Sports People from Tacoma
Hey Travis, I added several names of Tacomans who played professional soccer, and you deleted them. I know all of these people -- your deletions would seem to imply they do not exist! By what authority did you delete them, and by what standards did you decide to edit my additions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by T-Bone11 (talk • contribs)


 * I kept several of the soccer players (Jeff Durgan, Mark Peterson, and Jeff Stock) and kept fighter Johnny Bumphus, but removed players who didn't yet have a Wikipedia article (Danny Vaughn, Jamie Deming, Chris Hellenkamp, under the assumption that if they're not notable enough to have an article here, they're not notable enough to be on the growing list of sports figures with ties to Tacoma. At the same time, I removed Pat Austin, (who seems like he should have an article, but doesn't) and Paul Hospenthal (no article; being the spouse of someone famous may not be sufficient notability).


 * If you think they're notable enough to keep, go ahead and add them back in, and please create an article for them! The Wikipedia notability guidelines are a bit vague here:
 * Notability guidelines determine whether a topic is sufficiently notable to be included as a separate article in Wikipedia. These guidelines do not specifically regulate the content of articles, which is governed by other Wikipedia's guidelines, such as those on the reliability of sources and trivia. However, list articles like List of English writers are expected to include only notable writers.


 * There's extra notability leeway for article content (such as mentioning Hospenthal?), but he is perhaps not notable enough to get his own article. However, I'd suggest that the section of "Notable Tacomans" is like the List of English writers article.Travisl 01:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the thread. I was wondering where Pat Austin was from. His article is finally under development by me. One of the top drag racers of all-time (13th) finally gets an article!  Royal broil  04:04, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Tacoma Seal.gif
Image:Tacoma Seal.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Sigh. Tacoma Seal.gif is -- no surprise -- a seal for the city of Tacoma. The same city of Tacoma that is the only linked article from Tacoma Seal.gif.  I understand, though, that overzealous bots can't figure it out, so I've added the (IMHO goofy) redundant seal rationale to that image's page. That should keep the bot at bay. Travisl (talk) 22:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Audio probably worth linking
KUOW had a very good "radio tour" today of historic buildings in Tacoma, under the title "City of Destiny". They haven't yet uploaded the audio, but they always do. Once it's online, I strongly recommend a link. - Jmabel | Talk 05:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Audio now available, will add to article. - Jmabel | Talk 05:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Halasovski?
In the article: "In the 1970's the historian & bon viveur PJ Halasovski lived in the North section of the city." No indication of notability. No other mention of this person in Wikipedia. 3 minutes with Google suggests that there is no notable person by this name. So why is it there? I suggest removing. - Jmabel | Talk 05:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Wasn't cited, so I deleted it. Travisl (talk) 19:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 15:54, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Big John the rapper
On April 4, 68.9.235.20 added Big John to the list of notable Tacomans. That link points to a disambiguation page, which doesn't point to the rapper in question. I Googled "big john" rapper tacoma, and the only relevant results were the rapper's MySpace page and other some non-mainstream coverage. I removed it, with the comment, "Removing Big John. No Wikipedia page, and Google doesn't show any mainstream coverage. Can you verify notability and add him back?"

68.9.235.20 added it back on April 7 without comment. I removed it, leaving the same comment I did before. 68.9.235.20 added it back today with the commment, "Big John is a rapper out of Tacoma Washington. Look him up on MySpace. He has 2 full length albums released, 'The Author' and 'The Next Step.'" I'm removing it again, requesting that whoever adds it back explains here how Big John meets the notability guidelines at Notability (people), specifically, which one (or more) of the 12 criteria at MUSIC applies. Travisl (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I am 68.9.235.20
 * I have both of his albums. Just googling "Big John" will not get you to info about him, since it is such a common pair of words. You have to Google "Big John The Next Step" which is his latest album, to get the info. He is not at all big yet. He is an independant underground rapper running off his own record label, Magnus Records. His records are being distributed by Traffic Entertainment. He also made a music video of "How We Do", which is on YouTube. I bought his records at FYE, who stock him. If he is not "notable enough", then something is wrong, since he is a really really good rapper with 2 albums and a record label. Big John is not just some street rapper. He deserves to have a place in the music section of Tacoma, WA, since he is a notable rapper. If you at all disagree with me, layne4502@mail.com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.235.20 (talk) 00:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the information. I've run the Google search you suggested, and it results in more than 6300 hits. A lot of them aren't related, so adding "magnus" to the search narrows it down to 430 hits, most of which are places selling his tracks or sharing his tracks. Let's look and see which of the 12 criteria at MUSIC applies:


 * 1. It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable.
 * Well, the album got a 4/5 star rating at Rolling Stone, but no review. There's no reviews at VH1's store, nor at Amazon (and almost everything has a review by some schmoe at Amazon.) Rhymehouse.com has an interview with him, but interviews don't count (rule 1 has the exception "except for the following: ... publications where the musician/ensemble talks about themselves..."). By the time I get to the 6th page of Google results, I start getting articles about things other than the rapper.


 * 2. Has had a charted hit on any national music chart.
 * 3. Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country.
 * No indication that either is the case. His big album, The Next Step is currently "#234,380 in Music" on Amazon.


 * 4. Has received non-trivial coverage in a reliable source of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country.
 * His MySpace page doesn't even list concert dates, and his blog there is empty.


 * 5. Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable).
 * In the rhymehouse.com interview, Big John says, "I would love to tour, but can't afford to lose my job. If I lose my job there will be no more Magnus Records." Sounds like it's just him.


 * 6. (applies to musical groups only.)


 * 7. Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability.
 * Maybe, but an article in The Stranger, the local music rag, which was written last October about the hip hop names in Tacoma, doesn't mention Big John at all.


 * 8. Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a Grammy
 * 9. Has won or placed in a major music competition.
 * 10. Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g. a theme for a network television show
 * 11. Has been placed in rotation nationally by any major radio network.
 * 12. Has been the subject of a half hour or longer broadcast across a national radio or TV network.
 * I'd expect to see this information on his MySpace page. It's not there.


 * I understand that you think he's a significant part of the hiphip scene in Tacoma. I'd even go as far to say that if he gets one review (other than a simple numeric rating) in a single major publication, he should be included. That would include, for the purposes of inclusion in a list of notable Tacomans, a national magazine, the Weekly Volcano or The Stranger, The News Tribune, or any other major paper.


 * Am I missing a bit of information that you're finding that fits one of these criteria? Travisl (talk) 04:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This is a big surprise to me how minor this guy really is. This is what no exposure does to an artist. I guarentee you if his video is played on MTV a couple times, he will go platinum. I am sorry for my inconvenience. I cannot believe how unfair the music industry and market is. The horrible people go #1 and win all types of awards and the great people are not even considered notable enough to be listed in the Wikipedia article of their origin town. Again, I am sorry for my inconvenience. I never knew that he is as small time as he is, I thought he was a bit bigger after listening to his albums. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.235.20 (talk) 11:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the followup. I'm frustrated with the music industry too. There's some bands that I've really liked (e.g., The Orion Experience) which sadly didn't have the industry backing it takes to make it big. Different genre, same problem. Travisl (talk) 15:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC) [''Late edit: then again, I just heard them in a mainstream TV show and they recently got some minor celebrity coverage, so maybe they're just on the notable side. We'll see. Travisl (talk) 23:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)]


 * I was going to chime in here when I had time, but I see you guys have already agreed. Still, 68.9..., I just wanted to respond to something you said on User talk:Barneca/Unprotected: I never meant to say or imply this was a hoax or that he didn't exist, just that he likely didn't meet WP's fairly strict notability requirements. A general rule of thumb (not in absolutely all cases, but pretty widely followed) is that we don't include someone in the "notable people from X" sections of articles unless they have their own article; there should be very few, if any, red links in these lists. --barneca (talk) 16:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

My Two Cents Worth
I've spent the last several weeks reading various articles on Wikipedia pages. I made a minor addition to one page. This is my first comment. For those of you who missed Noam Cohen's ( New York Times ) article regarding Wikipedia ( TNT 02-23-07 pg. A4 ), I would suggest you read it. There is a lot that is good about an online source of information in the form of "encyclopedia", but if it loses its credibility in the academic world because of errata or vandalism, all that well-intentioned effort is wasted. While gang warfare or the 'aroma of Tacoma' may well seem to us, the local denizens, to be primary features of our own home town, such subjects do not have an appropriate place in what proposes to be an academic 'encylopedia', nor are they of legitimate value to a person seeking information on this particular subject. On the other hand, I was dismayed to find 'article not found' when clicking the hyperlink to 'David Brame'. While it may be true that Wikipedia is 'not controlled by the CIA, Martians, or Elvis', one has to wonder how much of the content is being removed or edited by public officials, law enforcement, or the local chamber of commerce. That the City of Tacoma has a long history ( little of which can be documented, other than through anecdotal sources ) of corrupt public officials ( especially in City Hall and local law enforcement ) is an issue worthy of mention, especially when in those instances elected officials are recalled ( A.L. "Slim" Rasmussen, et al ), or are involved in murder/suicides ( Brame ). Overall, the article reads as though it were put together for a tourism pamphlet, and does little in the way of providing a comprehensive history of the City, its evolvement, its relationship to other metropolitan areas in Puget Sound, and its significance in international commerce. Just my lousy two cents worth. Ski mohawk 13:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * David Brame is not encyclopedia worthy, it was a news story, about a murder suicide, who happened to be the police cheif of a medium sized city. If you think he merits an article in Wikipedia, go ahead and write one.  You accurately address your second point with ( little of which can be documented, other than through anecdotal sources ) in reference to alleged corruption in the Tacoma municipal government.  If there is no documentation, how can we include it in an encyclopedia?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saul T (talk • contribs) 13:33, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree with your opinion that David Brame is not noteworthy. I've finally gotten around to creating a stub of a page for him, with references from CBS News, in depth coverage from the local Tacoma newspaper, and his victim's relatives' apperance on Oprah. Travisl (talk) 20:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, that short article on Brame was deleted on a "WP:NOTNEWS" basis. On that same basis, I've removed the mention from the article here. I think it might be worth restoring as part of a section on corruption and scandal in city politics, if someone has enough other citable material to justify that.

Here's what I deleted: "On April 26, 2003, Tacoma's chief of police David Brame shot his wife and then killed himself in Gig Harbor, Washington. His wife died from injuries a few days later." That was cited

- Jmabel | Talk 01:14, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

"Historic Landmarks" section
What is the basis for inclusion in the "Historic Landmarks" section? I agree that everything listed there right now is notable, but there are dozens of Tacoma buildings and districts on the National Register of Historic Places; weirdly, Stadium High School is not listed in its own right; instead it's just included in the Stadium-Seminary Historic District. - Jmabel | Talk 08:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

What is Tacoma's stand alone metro poulation? Seems to be larger than Spokane and Spokane has its own metro pop.Tacoma also seems to have a well defined urban core and its own arena(Tacoma Dome). Without lumping it in with Seattle(45 min away) what would its metro be? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.171.233.131 (talk) 00:52, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Frederick Heath (architect)
Might be worth a mention in the article, or at least of interest to those working on this article. One source says he designed the National Realty Building which was the tallest building west of the Mississippi at the time? He also did lots of other interesting buildings. Someone should add a photo of the Stadium Bowl. Ambrose J. Russell mights also be of interest to peeps aqui. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:34, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Urban Form additions
-Clarified and expanded discussion of the street numbering system (not sure if it is brief enough, though).
 * Updated, clarified, and rewrote parts of this section to hopefully make the section a little more complete.Rootrider (talk) 15:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

-Expanded discussion of business districts and added a link to the Cross District Association -Added a link to the article on the ferry Rhododendron, which I hope to also expand in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Earthworm Makarov (talk • contribs) 19:27, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Goodies
I would have liked to have the "goodies" that come from tacoma mentioned in the summary. Such as Johnny's seasoning as well as Almond Roca. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.232.72.152 (talk) 10:19, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Cultural attractions
Any chance we should mention First Night (the big New Years celebration in Tacoma)? Seems to me a lot bigger deal than, for example, Shakespeare in the Parking Lot. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 20:04, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Notable Tacomans
Wikipedia entries for Frank Herbert, Dashiell Hammett mention time spent living in Tacoma. Do they (and other "famous Tacomans" - Dale Chihuly, etc. - merit a mention (perhaps a section on notable people w/ ties to the city). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.185.9.91 (talk) 06:38, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Name origin
The article states that the city was named for Mount Tahoma. But the name of the city is Tacoma. Is there a mispelling of the original name of Mount Rainier, or is there some other explanation for the discrepancy? fishhead64 (talk) 15:25, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Re: Tahoma/Tacoma ... my understanding is that these are spelling variations of the Native American name for the mountain, a result of translating the non-written Native American words into English by multiple persons who hear the words slightly differently - although at the moment I can't seem to locate a source to support that. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:31, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Mount Rainier was to be called Mount Tahoma, but Seattle/King County won out in the battle over naming rights. 67.137.68.210 (talk) 15:21, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Technically, not true saying "was to be called", per Mount Rainier. The mountain was originally named Talol or Tacoma by Native Americans; it received the name of Mount Rainier by the first European to see the mountain in 1792, which is the name made official by the United States Board on Geographic Names in 1890 - by which time the city already existed. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:31, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Toyota Tacoma
in the opening section, this quote exists "Japanese automaker Toyota has a truck named after the city." First, does this sort of statement really belong in the opening summary? Secondly, is this verified at all? I had always assumed that the "Tacoma" was named after the mountain (ie. Rainier), not the city. I see that this same unverified assertion is made in the opening section of the Toyota_Tacoma article as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rootrider (talk • contribs) 14:05, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It seems as though this has been removed, but I do recall reading at the time the Toyota Tacoma first came out that it was named after the city. I believe it may have something to do with Toyota shipping through Port of Tacoma.  Perhaps this is something that could be added under the "Commerce and Industry" heading, but I'm not ambitious enough to research it at the moment.--131.191.56.133 (talk) 14:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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