Talk:Taekwondo/Archive 2

Article Promotion
I promoted the article to B class and archived the discussions. The external links should be trimmed. Wikipedia is not a link farm. The ideal number is 2 or 3 that add to the article rather than advertise. This is the main thing hold the article back from GA status.

I advise taking a look at the Judo or Aikido articles to see how they worked around similar situations. Peter Rehse 04:03, 27 December 2006

Success in MMA Section
Do we need this section? This sounds like an opinion piece. Wiki isn't a soapbox and this section doesn't flow with the rest of the article. It's void of any references. MMA efficacy of TKD isn't important enough to deserve its own section in my opinion.Melonbarmonster 08:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Edits made since no one responded one way or the other. Comments, opinions welcome.Melonbarmonster 01:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Obviously its neccessary. Many other martial arts have been covered. The only problem to having this section in is that Taekwondo really has no success whatsoever in MMA. If you can, mention one taekwondo fighter that has ever succeeded in a major MMA league. Hmm_Sprinkles
 * Dude you need to read WP:A, WP:V, WP:OR.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the martial art. MMA adds no value to the "credibility" of any martial art, and since MMA is a form of sport, one which is far removed from the art of Taekwondo, the addition of the MMA section would only spark an unnecessary argument. Melonbarmonster pretty much says exactly what I have said. I agree completely.Ubershock 14:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Belt Section
Sigh, there has been vandalism in the belt section for an entire month now. Did nobody notice the "camouflage belts" and that they each link to "McDojo"? Sigh... it's also annoying to have to keep cleaning up the section every time someone comes on whose school doesn't do it the same way that the article says and feels that since their way is obviously the right way, they have to edit the worldwide TKD article. The way the table is structured now is about as accurate as I think it can get, as there really is no consistency between schools on the belts, and even the" ones show significant variance between schools. Wkerney 02:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

-Someone edited the article to show 12 gups. To my knowledge, both ITF and WTF only have 10 gups. Leonardo, 4 February 2007


 * Belts were edited again. As there is no uniform system beyond white-yellow...black, should the article simply be edited to show that? Might stop the reverts.

I fixed the table with the ranks again, someone had changed it and it appeared weird. I don't know about the belt colors in ITF, so could please someone edit it? Maybe the brown belt should be mentioned in the WTF belt colors, because some schools use it. Nmnogueira 08:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that the WTF (or the Kukkiwon), does not specify belt colors. I can find no "official" colored belt rankings for WTF. For ITF, yes, and it is listed on their site. For WTF, no. SunSw0rd 18:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The WTF is nothing more than a tournament committee. The WTF does not make Taekwondo methods or policy, the Kukkiwon does, and the Kukkiwon does have official belt colors. They match the Olympic Ring colors. White, Yellow, Green, Blue, Red and Black. --Bigzilla 04:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Reference, please? The closest I can find to belt colors on the Kukkiwon site is in their webzine, where they state the sequence is as follows: White, Yellow, Blue, Red and finally Black. Similar to your sequence, but Green is omitted. The webzine also says: "The traditional colors of Korea consists of five colors, which are blue, white, red, black, and yellow". If this is accurate, this might explain belt colors from the Kukkiwon perspective. Here is the: [Kukkiwon Webzine].


 * In any case, I can't find any "official" Kukkiwon statement on Gup colors -- the webzine not withstanding. SunSw0rd 18:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I would say we should go with what you found on the Kukkiwon Webzine. I believe the Olympic rings colors change was listed in one of the old "Kukkiwon News" newsletters we use to receive before the new Kukkiwon magazine "Taekwondo People" replaced it. I'll have to look back at some old newsletters to find it, then I can post it. Good find. April 2007  Bigzilla.

The current belt section links to nothing, incidentally, and the belt color listing is ugly and unreadable. We had this all hammered out at one point, it looked nice, was inclusive, and nobody objected. Why do we need to keep revisiting this? Not all dojos use the same colors, but there is a most common scheme that the majority of schools use, if perhaps with some variation, I don't understand why everybody has to include their particular school's schema in the article. Bjsiders 07:12, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Web Site Promotion for TKD Hall of Fame
Please don't make unilateral edits to this site when administrators and editors have clearly stated their disagreement with your website promotions. You are violating WP:EW by ignoring other people's disagreement with your edits. You need to seek consensus before making edits that multiple users disagree with you on. Looking at your wiki contributions, most of your edits have been inserting links to your site in various tkd related articles. That kind of website promotion on wiki as far as I know. If you disagree, please resolve this with the admin who alerted you to this on your talk page. You can't just ignore admin and other editors and make these edits unilaterally. Thanks.Melonbarmonster 06:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Then every page on Wikipedia should be removed. The www.taekwondohalloffame.com website is the best historical resource for competitive Taekwondo in both the ITF and the WTF.--Bigzilla 04:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Korean commands
Please feel free to correct to the authentic Korean pronounciation. I only remember this by ear but don't know for example the actual written form.--Jondel 07:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Goryeo?
Wow. Way to completely leave out the Goryeo(Koryo) Dynasty in the history section... That's pretty much the most important dynasty to mention concerning Taekwondo. If I'm not mistaken, there is even a style called Koryo. You should definately do some research about its history in Goryeo and its travel to Japan & influence on Japanese martial arts.

Goyeo was of no influence on Taekwondo, aside from lending it's name one pumsae of Kukki Taekwondo. Errant108 20:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Origin of Taekwondo exposed
http://www.goviamedia.com/Korea-DB.pdf —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.180.154.132 (talk) 02:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC).

Dakin Burdick's so-called article is so full of errors and false statements it's a total mess. --75.33.81.226 09:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Burdick knows nothing about Korean history or culture and even less about TKD. This article is an embarassment to the martial arts literary community.melonbarmonster 20:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Dakin Burdick is considered to a well-researched scholar in the martial arts literary community, and his article has more fact in it than this Wikipedia article. If you take issue with his statements, contest them with sources, not ad hominum attacks. Errant108 20:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Traditional Roots:

Taekwondo has no ancestor in the Samguk Shidae. Ancestorship implies lineage, and there is no lineage for Taegwondo past the Japanese occupation. Find me legitimate historical sources that say otherwise, or that have not been discredited by historians. Attempts to tie Taegwondo and other modern KMA to pre-Yain Shidae arts, the majority of which had died out, are retro-active, historical revisionism that has hampered the development of Taegwondo and severely hurt its reputation in the serious martial arts historical community.

I find it sad that Wikipedia's TKD article has been edited to reflect a bogus mythology that has been discredited for many years by legitimate historians. This article spends four paragraphs on the mythology of Taekwondo and less than two on the actual development of Taegwondo, making next to no mention of the various gwanjang and the process of creating Taekwondo. The title "Mondern" Taekwondo is almost laughable, considering that the only Taekwondo is modern taekwondo. Errant108 20:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

You have been reading to much of Burdick's mis-information. Dakin is a guy who thinks that Chi Do Kwan, Jidokwan and Yun Moo Kwan are three different Kwans. You know why, because he read it in another book of mis-information. This article is as close and an open forum can get to what is Taekwondo.--Bigzilla 04:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Burdick may have some facts wrong but this does nothign to negate the fact that this article begins by affirming mythology that has been discredited by scholars in Korea and abroad. Taekwondo had no roots in the Samguk Shidae. Provide me with reliable references for this please.

The mere fact that this article has a section labelled "traditional roots" that discusses arts and history completely unrelated to Taegwondo, and then a section called "external influence" deeply affects the credibility of the article. The "external influence" of Japanese karate is the root and base of Taegwondo, not pre-Yaein shidae arts.Errant108 05:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Taekwondo's roots are from Okinawan To-de, not Taekkyon, Subak or the Samguk Shidae. However, I would not give Dakin the credit for that find. Regards - April 2007 Bigzilla

Nor would I, as numerous others have asserted this for years, including Korean masters who never agreed to go along with the false mythology. That being said, what approaches can we take to make this article more historically accurate?Errant108 18:29, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I feel we must distinguish between Taekwondo's unique history and it's place in a long line of Korean martial arts history. The Modern History book, along with Kyo Yoon Lee's book "Global Taekwondo" pretty much nails it. Also, it must be known that Un Yong Kim even wrote in his book, the Best Olympics, that he had to tie Taekwondo to Taekkyon to avoid having Taekwondo absorbed into Karate. For this reason, the mythology served a purpose, but now it's time to move on. Also the Korea Taekkyon Association states that Taekwondo is not from Taekkyon, or any ancient Korean art.

The issue is though that the Okinawan arts, and even the Samurai art that influenced martial art culture in the East might be from the area Ancient Korea, from some degree. April 2007 Bigzilla.


 * OK I was a exaggerating a bit before but really I don't think you guys realize how bad Burdick's article is. His stuff on early Korean masters is hearsay and debatable but the stuff on first 2 pages is just embarrassing stuff.  Burdick is obviously an amateur when it comes to East Asian history.  When it comes to Korean history and culture he is an absolute neophyte. He is oblivious to Korean folk customs and indigenous Korean martial arts like taekyon that has its roots in subak which are linked to samguk shidae.  There are chosun records that document wide spread practice of taekyon as well as military martial arts which were requirements for application and acceptance into military.  Peasant versions of takeyon were widely practiced late into the 1800's in huge tournaments similar to ssirum tournaments until its ban during colonization.


 * Also, Taekwondo isn't a forerunner of taekyon but its influence is obvious and heavy. Modern TKD kicks are very much linear versions of taekyon kicks. As for your request for references, there are plenty. But when it comes to TKD history, there is so much junk out there that you can find anything for whatever your position... such as this Burdick article.


 * Bottom line, TKD is a modern amalgamation. But historical elements in its construction include traditional influences that does go back to samsuk shidae and subak.  I do agree that a lot of crap abounds including stuff about dangun and hwarang are just ridiculous and unfounded.  It's not even topically related.  But Burdick's article isn't much better adn all his claims are just crap shoot guesses.melonbarmonster 01:31, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "Korean martial arts like taekyon that has its roots in subak which are linked to samguk shidae."


 * Taegyun does not have its roots in subak. Subak was a generic term for striking.  The Hanja for it show up in Japanese and Chinese terminology at the same time, and don't refer to a specific art.


 * Secondly, subak practice in Korea died out centuries ago. Saying that it has any bearing on the modern creation of Taegwondo is so historically inaccurate as to be laughable.


 * '''"There are chosun records that document wide spread practice of taekyon as well as military martial arts which were requirements for application and acceptance into military."

'''
 * If you're referring to the Muyedobotongji, the Gwonbeop that was practiced is a derivation of Long Fist set created by a Chinese general. Not Taegyun.  If you have legitimate sources in Hanja, I'd love to read them,


 * "Modern TKD kicks are very much linear versions of taekyon kicks."


 * Modern TKD kicks developed out of karate kicks and Korean ingenuity. The fact that they show similarity to Taegyun kicks means little.


 * To say TKD's kicks are directly derived from Taegyun, you have to show a Taegyun influence. Even Taegyun practitioners deny this, and say that TKD is a Koreanized form of karate.  There has been no founder of TKD verified to have studied Taegyun in any depth, and those who have claimed to have had many of their other claims debunked.


 * "As for your request for references, there are plenty."


 * Propoganda free? That aren't contested by scholars?


 * I would love to see them.


 * "I do agree that a lot of crap abounds including stuff about dangun and hwarang are just ridiculous and unfounded. It's not even topically related."


 * Which is why an article in an encyclopedia should reflect that which can be historically verified.Errant108 05:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all, can you return the courtesy of digesting people's posts and responding in coherent paragraphs as other editors, including myself, have done? Yeah it takes a little more work but breaking down people's paragraphs into sentences is just lazy and disruptive to flow of discussion as well as making it unnecessarily difficult for people to respond. I mean do we have to break down a 5 sentence paragraph into 5 different discussions and then break down each sentence of the response into discussion, etc., and so forth???  That's a retarded way to discuss things. It also devolves the discussion into inane arguments that end up having little to do with the original topic or you end up creating stupid egotistical arguments about issues that aren't even in dispute. It doesn't take much brain power and writing skills to organize arguments in our heads and respond in coherent sentences and paragraphs.


 * As for the substantive stuff, there are chosun state documents(not the one you mentioned) that document subak and taekyon requirements for entrance into military. Taekyon tournaments were part of popular folk culture all the way into Japanese colonization.  And there are chosun documents that show the King even banning taekyon tournaments at a time due to the gambling and social disruptions that they caused.


 * Also, if subak was a generic term not referring to a specific art, then I don't see how you can confidently claim that it died out centuries ago as if the term refers to a specific art. Do you mean striking martial arts died out in Korea centuries ago???  If that that's the case, you're just wrong because subak and taekyon(whatever styles they may have referred to) were practiced by the populace and the military as I've explained above.  If you are referring to a specific style of striking art, I have no idea how you would know and you would be contradicting yourself.  And if subak is a generic term I don't see why taekyon wouldn't be part of it.


 * My guess is that you're confusig the dynamic of "generic terms". They're used generally and to to refer to specific styles as is the case in modern times with the term ""kumdo".  Even if specific styles die down, the term goes on to be used.  Obviously you are not going to find documentation that proves a single systemized style was passed down through the samguk shidae and chosun times.  But that doesn't preclude the possibility of a non-systemized styles being developed dying out and organicly influencing the next which is obviously what happened with Korean martial arts including TKD.


 * As for taekyon's influence on TKD kicks, there's no documentation to prove nothing. Taekyon masters have self-interests to protect and would of course claim that early TKD masters have no taekyon influence. That would contradict and outdate their own lineage claims as well as pollute their taekyon styles with Japanese influences. My guess from comparable folk practices and documented taekyon tournaments is that taekyon was probably practiced informally like ssirum and passed down by private practicioners.  Koreans were kicking before karate and I don't see how we can ignore claims of early TKD masters having learned taekyon and other indigenous MA.


 * In any case, we can debate the details until we're blue in the face. But any ridiculous claims of exposed origins liek this burdick article should be avoided ad for the purposes of this article I don't think it's possible to not include this history as part of the ingredients that made up the construction of TKD.


 * On a personal note, do you guys seriously not see how certain TKD kicks are literally the linear versions of same taekyon kicks and look nothing like karate kicks?melonbarmonster 05:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Taekkyon kicks are meant to push the opponent, not strike. This is the reason for the Poom Bal Ki stepping technique, to reduce the shock of kicking. Chong Woo Lee stated that no one in Taekwondo's roots learned Taekkyon to any extent that it had an influence on Taekwondo, and that the kicking skills in Taekwondo came about because the early masters only watched Taekkyon, and added their own ideas.--Bigzilla 06:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * "General Choi was born in the harsh area of North Korea on 9th November 1918. His father sent him to study calligraphy under the direction of one of the most respected teachers in Korea, Mr. Han IL Dong. Han was also a master of Taek Kyon, the ancient art of foot fighting. The teacher, concerned for the health of his new student, set about teaching him the rigorous exercises of Taek Kyon to help build up his body." ~ Quoted from the "Taekwon-Do Student's Handbook 10th Kup to 1st Dan" Mike Peryer, referring directly to information written by General Choi Hong Hi in both his works "The Encyclopaedia of Taekwon-Do" 1983 edition and "The Condensed Encyclopaedia of Taekwon-Do" 1995 edition. --Michael Hall 00:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Glad we cleared this upmelonbarmonster 23:46, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

--- Not really, let me clear this up. #1 - Taekkyon was a practice that was unique to the area of Seoul, not the area of Pyongyang. #2 - no one has been able to prove the existance of a Taekkyon master named Han Ill Dong, as Taekkyon kept very detailed records. #3 - I am one of the only American practitioners of Taekkyon, trained by Yong Bok Lee's son, Si Hyuk (and ranked as 8th Poom by KTA - and a Life Member of the World Taekkyon Federation), and I can tell you that Taekwondo has NOTHING in common with Taekkyon. I also asked Jidokwan co-founder Chong Woo Lee about Taekkyon and Taekwondo, he told me directly, in his own words, that none of the Taekwondo founders, or pioneers trained for any significant time in Taekkyon, he said that "we just watched Taekkyon and were influenced by the kicking techniques". This is as good as it gets. 14 May - Bigzilla.

The debate is moronic. Just find any Taekwondo book published around 70s. It just a Shotokan karate book in Korean. Every kata, every technique is the exact carbon copy of this particular karate style. Vapour


 * I think subjective testimony of old masters is very helpful but not authoritative in trying to investigate and document history of TKD's formation. As is the case with most Korean cultural things in the latter 1800's until after Korean War, you're going to miss the real history if you look for systemic, formal evidence and proofs and documentation.  I do think that different early Korean martial artists emulated karate to various instances but I think the working characterization has to be that TKD is a Korean construction that was evolving since its inception.  Those TKD books from the 70's that Vapour mentions doesn't tell us anything new. In trying to figure out the ingredients and affect of different influences, I don't see how you can leave out cultural history and background of Korean martial arts such as taekyon which was widely practiced formally and as part of folk culture.  This last bit documented in Chosun records where a Korean king even banned taekyon tournaments because of the gambling and civil unrest these tournaments were causing.


 * And as I explained, current taekyon masters have a vested interest to say that TKD has nothing to with Taekyon and that early TKD masters had no taekyon training. Authenticity of their claims and lineage of their taekyon style would be threatened if early TKD masters had learned taekyon as they claim as well as outdating claim of current taekyon masters.melonbarmonster 19:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * "you're going to miss the real history if you look for systemic, formal evidence and proofs and documentation." You give up any pretense to rationality, once you start to argue against the evidenced based discussion, So you are saying TKD being Korean origin doesn't have any formal evidences except wishful interpretation of anecdotal evidences. The fact supported by ample numbers of TKD instruction book published before 1980s show that TKD before 1980s was a Shotokan Karate. Let also not forget the lack of proof, such as that TKD founding father lacked any documented evidence to substantiate their claim of any training in Korean martial arts. It is wise to discard any hearsay evidence of people who is known to have issue with identity politics. Btw, the obsession with the term "Original" is a Korean thing. If you go walk the street of Korea, lot of traditional shop and restaurant use "Original" as part of logo. Ask any Westerners who visited Korea and understand the language. Longer you stay in Korea, more you get fed up with their nationalism. Vapour


 * Listen I'm not really interested in whatever your issues are behind your anti-korean bias. Go somewhere else if you want to start trading shallow stereotypes and biased comments about entire nationalities.  We all live in a glass house in that regard and there's plenty of rocks to be thrown on all sides.


 * I've already taken your arguments regarding 80's instruction books, lack of formal proof, etc., in to account in my explanations above. Unfortunately, you're continuing to ignore the historical and cultural evidence that I pointed out above.  I also didn't argue against evidence based discussion but you seem to be stuck on this preconceived miopic perspective that has little to do with actual history.  Evidence works both ways by the way.  Absence of direct evidence leaves the question open and unanswered in which case your forced to use circumstantial, contextual, comparative evidence.  Give me a response to what I wrote above and I'll be glad to respondmelonbarmonster 04:57, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Modern Olympic Wrestling, for example, does not trace its lineage to greco roman wrestling of antiquity. It was reinvented from a 19th Century French form of show-wrestling and the process of reinvention are well documented. Yes, pretty much every nation practiced martial arts. That is not disputed even in case of Korea. What is pointed out repeatedly here is the lack of evidence which link TKD to ancient Korean arts. It is easy to adopt a kicking techinique or two. I'm quite sure seasoned Karate practitioner can mimic savat kick with bit of practice.  It is the case that there is no documented evidence to link TKD to ancient korean practice while there are plenty of prima facie evidences to link TKD to Shotokan karate. Official TKD history is wishful interpretation of hearsay and anecdotal evidences. Vapour


 * The more accurate comparison would be other Korean cultural practices such as ssirum and other arts that survived the late 1900's and Japanese colonization as I've already explained in above comments. But even in your hypo is pointless since you're assuming TKD has no links to Korean MA.  Your answering the question before you even ask it.


 * You're also mischaracterizing the issue. The distinction isn't between prima facie evidence vs hearsay and anecdotal evidence.  You're rejecting even primary sources and first person accounts for the sole reason that it goes against your view.  You're also rejecting historical and cultural evidence for no good reason other than that it goes against your view as well as empirical evidence of how TKD has developed and is currently practiced.


 * Also, I'm not defending "official TKD" interpretations but what's represented in the text of this article. In the face of ALL available evidence it is wishful thinking to claim TKD came only from karate.melonbarmonster 21:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Practioner of TKD might consider the statement of the founder(s) of TKD to be the "primary" source. In the academic history, that type of account is considered as least reliable. Personal account and general cultural habit/practice is not considered as primary evidence in the discipline of history, while something like published instruction book or records of attendance in a school (especially if backed up by bank record) is considered as primary source. Strictly speaking, in academic history, published material such as newspaper is considered as secondary and something like bank record or government record would be considered as primary. Research historian are told to avoid reliance on personal accounts.
 * For example, existence of Celtic Wrestling is not a prima facie ground to claim the link between Celtic wrestling and Lancashire Wrestling. The founder of Lancasher wrestling's personal claim of linkage mean nothing unless there is an documented evidence from the third party source that show he did practice Celtic wrestling. Plus, both Judo and Catch wrestling can point some similarity to, say, Turkish wrestling. That is why the look of techniques are anecdotal. You see what you want to see in this type of so-called "evidence". The fact remain that no TKD founders can produce proof of their training in anything other than Karate or Judo. On the other hand, if you want to argue that TKD added (what they thought of as) takeyon kick into their Shotokan Karate after 80s that is fine. There is ample documented evidence to show the change of technique and kata into that direction. Also, there are ample documented evidence to show that TKD started off as a shotokan karate. Vapour

Yes, most all of Tae Kwon Do branched off of Shotokan Karate. Quietmartialartist 15:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a false and lazy statement.melonbarmonster 21:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Go and Find anyone who practiced TKD during 70s. I met several even in martial arts forum. They will tell you that TKD was shotokan karate. Change and modification of kata and technique were added afterward and was totally absent in their training. Saying that the earth is round is not false nor lazy. Vapour
 * I know several who practiced TKD in 60's including family members. I don't disagree with your anecdotal evidence.  I'm just putting it in proper contexts.  I think you're misunderstanding the issues here.melonbarmonster 20:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * At least Westerners practicing TKD is less likely to be involved in Korean identity politics. They are better source of personal account than one you get from Korean (or Japanese for that matter). Btw, published document are primary (or secondary if you consider bank or government's paper work as primary) while personal account and ancient writing are anecdotal. This issue has been around for more than a decade. Why no one from TKD can even give a name of their teacher or the location in which they learned takeyon or anything with more ancient Korean lineage. Vapour

I don't think you understand what primary or secondary sources mean. You're also ignoring my explanation of how evidence works. Absence of evidence leaves that question open, i.e., you've offered nothing but anecdotal evidence. I also don't care about a person's ethnicity in these matters. Their ability and competence in gathering and analyzing available evidence is far more important than some obtuse and ignorant ethnic generalizations. Can we talk about the historical context and available evidence?melonbarmonster 04:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I do because I studied it at the post grauduate level. If in doubt, go and get a book like "History: A very short introduction" from Oxford press. Archival documents is what is considered as primary evidence. Personal claim are categorically not a primary evidence and many (professional/academic) historian avoid using these kind of unreliable evidence all together so to avoid making errors. If personal accounts are cited in academic history book, the facts are already backed up by the archival documents. In history, you don't built your case, for example, for the existence of Nazi concentration camps out of survivors' personal account. One do so out of Nazi archive, which has already proved the case in undisputed manner.


 * More importantly, you are making fictitious argument about absence of evidence. If I claim that there is no orange jucice in a fridge before I open the fridge and have a look, then I may be making a false argument. If I open the fridge and see no orange juice, the absence of orange juice is a prima facie proof that there is no orange juice. The fact that all TKD founders fail to produce any documents or even name their instructors or dojo in which they learned anything like Takyeon is a proof enough of the absence of the link. And there are ample proof to show that they did learn Shotokan karate. Anyway, did they even bother to pay royalty for their TKD instruction book which they ripped from Shotokan?

Oversights in the Kicking Portion?
I see no entry there for the heel kick or the twist kick, surely they're not under "advanced kicks"? 150.199.110.146 01:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Also as I understand Dolyo chagi is a 60 degree roundhouse kick to the head or upper body, while the roundhouse thrown to the chest and below is called Bich chagi. Perhaps Bich chagi should be listed and the difference noted? Sonalchagi 22:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Modern Tae Kwon Do.
The current Tae Kwon Do page does not give Grandmaster Won Kuk Lee the credit he deserves.

"Modern" Tae Kwon Do was founded in 1944 under the original school: Chung Do Kwan. General Choi may have advanced Tae Kwon Do, however, the fact remains, Won Kuk Lee initiated it.

"External Influence" and "Modern Tae Kwon Do" should really be combined. Is what Chung Do Kwan teaches now considered Tae Kwon Do? Yes. That being the case, "Modern" Tae Kwon Do was around before an "official" name was given to it.

My suggestion is: Take External Influence and place it at the beginning of Modern Tae Kwon Do. "...Kang Duk Won, and Song Moo Kwan. Thus began modern Tae Kwon Do."

My second problem with this page is the way Tae Kwon Do is typed throughout. What is the logic for that? Korean is a language, just as English is. To other people it may all sound like jumbled jibberish, but there are slight pauses in between words.

Wkerney, perhaps for belts, to reduce the amount of people changing them, you should just write what my teacher tells parents of children from different styles. "Every school does it a little differently, but all of them start at white and end at black." Quietmartialartist 01:14, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Today Taekwondo is officially written in English as one word by the Korean Government, Kukkiwon, WTF and the Korea Taekwondo Association, as well as the IOC. So it is easy, Taekwondo is one word.


 * As for belts, there is what is done officially, then there is what is done by thousands of individual dojang owners. I feel it is fine that way it is.


 * Won Kuk Lee, though great in his own right and the founder of the first Kwan, really had little to direct involvment in the formation of what we know today as Taekwondo. However his student, UM, Woon Kyu, did. --Bigzilla 11:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If they've decided that, they can spell it however they want.


 * What do you think about my suggestion to combine External Influence and Modern Tae Kwon Do?


 * As for belts, "officially," is kind of a stretched term there. The fact of the matter is, it's impossible to keep people from reading a book, declaring themselves 6th Degree Black Belts and claiming to be part of a kwan, style, etc. Hence making it unlikely to put up an "official" belt system without creating conflict.


 * As for Won Kuk Lee, he is credited as being: 1. The founder of modern Tae Kwon Do. and 2. Was declared a "Living National Treasure," both by the Korean government. So if you want to go by the way they do things in Korea, please don't leave out that part. Quietmartialartist 02:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The WTF, Kukkiwon and the KTA decided to write Taekwondo as one word on the recommendation of the "Hangul Society", a group of 7 scholars of the ethnic Korean language based at Seoul University (Seoul Dae). This recommendation was adopted by the Korean Ministry of Culture and Tourism on February 26, 1987. Of course if you disagree with them, write it however you want, after all, what would the Hangul Society know about the ethnic Korean language?


 * External influences should not be conbined with Modern Taekwondo because, they are exactly that, external. Chung Do Kwan, and all Kwans called what they did KARATE until 1965, so they were not Taekwondo until that time. Over the next ten years following 1965 where the formative years of Modern Taekwondo, but not before that time.


 * The Kukkiwon has an official belt system. So does the ITF. Everything else is mis-mash, we can only state official terms as fact, everything else is up to the whim of any crack pot.


 * Won Kuk Lee was not the founder of Modern Taekwondo. He was exactly the founder of "Tang Soo Do Chung Do Kwan", which means "Karate Blue Waves School". Won Kuk Lee moved back to Japan before the name Taekwondo was used in Korea. It took him many years to adopt that name, after he moved to the USA. Won Kuk Lee's student, UM, Woon Kyu is considered a Pioneer of Modern Taekwondo because Modern Taekwondo has no one founder, it has a group of men who pioneered it's development.


 * What proof do you have that Won Kuk Lee is a Korean National Treasure? That honor went to SONG, Duk Ki, the progenator of Modern Taekkyon, not Won Kuk Lee. I have a copy of the document if you want to see it. --Bigzilla 06:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I will write it how I know it should be spelled. These “experts” may know a good deal about the Korean language, however, just how fluent are they in English literature?


 * So what you're saying is: In 1965 they started teaching completely different forms, kicks, etc. and stopped teaching what they had for the past 21 years? I can say for a fact, they did not. Reading your argument it still sounds like a good idea to include the “external influences” that made Tae Kwon Do what it is today at the beginning of the Modern section.


 * I don’t even know why you’re arguing about belts. I made a half-joke suggestion to Wkerney, after reading about his troubles with certain people changing the belt section.


 * First of all, Chung Do Kwan means: Blue Way School. This is the problem with combining three distinct words. The “Do” in Tae Kwon Do means: Way. The “Do” in Chung Do Kwan means the exact same thing.


 * Secondly, “moved back to Japan,” makes it sound like Grandmaster Lee's trip away from Korea was without concern for Tae Kwon Do and thus negligent. He, his wife and his students fled to Japan as political refugees because they had been tortured by the government.


 * “Won Kuk Lee's student, UM, Woon Kyu is considered a Pioneer of Modern Taekwondo…” What exactly did UM, Woon Kyu teach? What Grandmaster Lee taught him. I’m sure UM, Woon Kyu and others did a lot to spread Tae Kwon Do across the world, and I’m sure they had some money in their pockets afterward, however the fact remains, most of them started off under Won Kuk Lee. For that reason, I believe he deserves a good deal of the credit. There’s a picture hanging in my teacher’s studio of the first Kwan with everyone who was anyone in Tae Kwon Do at that time and Won Kuk Lee is fittingly in the center of it.


 * See Tae Kwon Do Times issue: “March 1997” It says it on the front, but here is the rest of the article: http://www.tmafitness.com/Portals/0/Won%20Kuk%20Lee%20Interview.pdf


 * As for that document, it doesn’t concern the topic at hand, but sure. Quietmartialartist 21:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

You like to talk about UM, Woon Kyu as if you know him, however if you did you would find that he disagrees with everything you wrote above, from the evolution of Taekwondo - what he taught, to how you spell Taekwondo. Actually, President UM wrote the article that states it is now writen in English as one word. Obviously you never read his article? Would you like his contact information so you can ask directly at the source instead of making things up on your own? --Bigzilla 13:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Um Woon Kyu is one of my Grand teachers. Is it impossible to know about someone and disagree with them? I won't claim to be one of his best friends, to know his favorite color, food, etc. but I do know what you have admitted yourself: Um Woon Kyu was taught Tae Kwon Do by Won Kuk Lee.


 * Once again, how fluent is Um Woon Kyu in English literature?


 * I assume, correctly I hope, what you mean by: "...he didn't teach what Won Kuk Lee taught him." you mean that he taught the new forms that were meant to distinguish Tae Kwon Do from it's Karate roots.


 * Did you look over that Tae Kwon Do Times article?


 * Perhaps you should read the article at the beginning of this page.

* Be polite * Assume good faith * No personal attacks * Be welcoming
 * You haven't done me the benefit of any of the above for sometime now. Quietmartialartist 20:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Cheongdogwan does not mean Blue Way School, rather, it means Blue Wave School. The hanja 濤 translates as Wave.  In Japanese it is read as To, as in Shotokan, the Pine Wave School, from which Cheongdogwan derives.  Shotokan in Korean is pronounced Songdogwan.  Errant108 01:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Reliable reference please. Here's a wikipedian reference: Do See: In other languages.
 * It is used in Japanese as a suffix for various arts and implies that they are not just techniques but have spiritual elements. In this circumstance it is usually translated as "the way of". For example, Japanese tea ceremony is called "Sado" (茶道) and flower arrangement is called "Kado" (華道), these translate to "the way of tea" and "the way of flowers" respectively. Since the Meiji era, Japanese martial artists have adopted this suffix for names of martial arts such as Aikido, Judo and Kendo. This convention was introduced to Korea, but not to China, with martial arts themselves during the Japanese rule so that the suffix can be found in Taekwondo.
 * Do may refer to the Chinese character 道 (Pinyin: dào; Wade-Giles: tao⁴), which is pronounced dō in Japanese and do (도) in Korean. Its primary meaning is "road" or "way", and derivative meanings include "Daoism", "province", and the very general meaning of "circuit". Quietmartialartist 21:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Won Kuk Lee taught Woon Kyu Um Shotokan Karate, not Taekwondo. Woon Kyu Um was a part of the group that developed Karate into Taekwondo. The practices that Woon Kyu Um instituted in the Chung Do Kwan became todays Taekwondo. Since President UM is your Great teacher, you should communicate with him to learn more about these issues. By the way, Errant is correct, Chung Do Kwan means Blue Waves School, NOT Blue Way School. That is something I learned directly from Woon Kyu Um and Hae Man Park, the current leaders of Chung Do Kwan.


 * Woon Kyu Um does not need to be fluent in English, the Korean language scholars that made the recommendation to him are. Since English is the official language of the Kukkiwon and the WTF, only scholars that were considered scholars in both Korean and English were selected from the Hangul Society to make these recommendations.--Bigzilla 05:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Bigzilla.

Quietmartialarist, your reference gives a definition for one Chinese character, but it does not say that is the Chinese character used in the name Cheongdogwan. If you would like, I will write all these out for you in Hanja and Hangul if that will satisfy you. Can you read Chinese characters? If the characters do not satisfy you, I recommend you get ahold of "A History of Modern Taekwondo" by Kang Wongsik and Lee Kyongmyong. Bigzilla, do you consider them a reliable resource?;) Errant108 05:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"A Modern History of Taekwondo" is the best source for anything that involves Taekwondo history. I have the original book and scan pages for anyone interested. April 26 2007  Bigzilla


 * What Woon Kyu Um did with Won Kuk Lee's teachings doesn't really matter in the scheme of things. If you take Won Kuk Lee out of the picture, out of his past, what kind of martial artist would he have been? Not nearly as great as he is now, I'm sure. That goes for any student of Grand Teacher Won Kuk Lee.


 * Please enter: 도 and 道 in the Wikipedia search link. The Do page will come up and at no point on that page does "Wave/Waves" come up as a possible translation. Further more, it seems what I quoted needs to be bolder to get the point across.
 * Do may refer to the Chinese character 道 (Pinyin: dào; Wade-Giles: tao⁴), which is pronounced dō in Japanese and do (도) in Korean. Its primary meaning is "road" or "way"...


 * 청도관 is Chung Do Kwan in Hangul. 靑道館 is Chung Do Kwan in Hanja.


 * Yet again, I will ask that you enter 도 and 道 into Wikipedia and read their page. (And yes, those are both the characters used in Chung Do Kwan. If you don't believe me go to Yahoo/Images and search "Chung Do Kwan" then take a good look at the characters on those pictures.)


 * Quote Errant: "The hanja 濤 translates as Wave. In Japanese it is read as To, as in Shotokan, the Pine Wave School, from which Cheongdogwan derives."


 * Yes. That is true. But answer me this: Is Chung Do Kwan spelled (how you spell it) Cheongdogwan or Cheongtogwan? Quietmartialartist 15:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * With all due respect sir, do you read Chinese characters or speak Korean?


 * "Quietmartialartist: 청도관 is Chung Do Kwan in Hangul. 靑道館 is Chung Do Kwan in Hanja.'"


 * Yes, the Hanja 靑道館 would be pronounced Cheongdogwan in Korean. However, they are the wrong Hanja for the organization created by Won Kuk Lee.  His Gwan was known as 靑濤館, written 청도관 in Hangul, pronounced Cheongdogwan, and meaning the Blue Wave School.


 * Quietmartialartist: Please enter: 도 and 道 in the Wikipedia search link. The Do page will come up and at no point on that page does "Wave/Waves" come up as a possible translation. Further more, it seems what I quoted needs to be bolder to get the point across.
 * Do may refer to the Chinese character 道 (Pinyin: dào; Wade-Giles: tao⁴), which is pronounced dō in Japanese and do (도) in Korean. Its primary meaning is "road" or "way"..."


 * Your logic is circular. I am well aware that there is a Hanja 道 that is written 도 in Korean, pronounced Do in English and means way or path.  None of this means that this particular Hanja is the one in Cheongdogwan.  Make your text as "bold" as you wish, because you're not discussing this in a linguistically correct manner.  Are you aware that Hangul, Korean phonetic symbols, are not characters, but rather a phonetic alphabet like the English alphabet?  There are many different Hanja, Chinese symbol characters, that can be pronounced 도, or Do.


 * I don't need to enter it into wikipedia, I can look it up in the Hanja dictionary I have sitting right next to me. Secondly, you're looking at this backward.  It doesn't matter what Wikipedia says is the meaning of the Chinese character 道/도/Do, because that is not the Do in the name Cheongdogwan.


 * For the sound 도/Do...I can think of at least 13 different Hanja to go with this sound. Yes, one of them is the character 道, but this does not mean that character is the 도 in the name. The character 濤/도/Do is the second character in the name Cheongdogwan.  Cheongdogwan is written using the Hanja 靑濤館.  In Hangul, it is written 청도관.  In Revised Romanization, it is written Cheongdogwan.


 * "Quietmartialartist: (And yes, those are both the characters used in Chung Do Kwan. If you don't believe me go to Yahoo/Images and search 'Chung Do Kwan' then take a good look at the characters on those pictures.)"


 * No, I don't believe you. As I mentioned before "A History of Modern Taekwondo by Kang and Lee listed Cheongdogwan as the Blue Wave School.  The only two pictures I found within the first three pages of YahooImages search both had the Hanja for Cheongdogwan listed as 靑濤館, the Blue Wave School.  They can be seen  and, Julian's Lim's 8th dan certificate from the Cheongdogwan and his letter of appointment.


 * As you directed me to go to the Wikipedia page for "Do", I recommend you go to Wiktionary and enter the Hanja 濤.


 * I have provided two pictures and a reference for you to research.


 * "Quietmartialartist: Is Chung Do Kwan spelled (how you spell it) Cheongdogwan or Cheongtogwan?"


 * Using revised romanization, it is spelled Cheongdogwan. Errant108 03:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I would like to start off with saying: Thank you for showing some respect, Errant. I hope you enjoy the ensuing argument as much as I undoubtedly will. ;) Now, on to business...


 * No, I'm afraid I'm not that fluent in writing/speaking Korean or Chinese. However my teachers are. Not to mention my eye sight is good enough that I can visually tell one character from another, albeit I don't know how many different meanings one character has.


 * Quote Errant: "I am well aware that there is a Hanja 道 that is written 도 in Korean, pronounced Do in English and means way or path. None of this means that this particular Hanja is the one in Cheongdogwan."


 * It does prove that that is one possible translation at the very least.


 * The first link is a picture of the certificate I received when I achieved 1st Degree Black Belt.
 * 
 * 
 * Notice the 5th character from the left on these pictures? They're all: 도


 * Considering the above three links I think that it is fairly safe to say out of the two translations "Way" is the correct one. Because no where on this page does it mention "Wave/Waves" as a possible translation.


 * I think you missed the meaning of my question the first time, so I'm going to try my best to explain this:

Quote Errant: "The hanja 濤 translates as Wave. In Japanese it is read as To, as in Shotokan, the Pine Wave School, from which Cheongdogwan derives."


 * That character reads as "To" in Japanese? Then why is Cheongdogwan spelled with do? I must be confusing the two languages. (Oh, by the way, I am studying Japanese) Quietmartialartist 17:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Your teachers may be fluent, however, they are mistaken if they are telling you that the Do in Chung Do Kwan means WAY. The Chinese Characters for Do in Chung Do Kwan is different than in Taekwondo. Errant is 100% correct in his clear explaination to you. Also, I looked at the copy of your Dan certificates. Are you aware that those certificates are not official Chung Do Kwan Dan certificates? Therefore you can use them as an example. Errant used Julian Lim's certificates as examples, and they are official Chung Do Kwan Dan. I have the Chung Do Kwan history pages scanned if you are interested. It is in Korean (Hangul and Hanja) so you can see the Chinese Characters that Won Kuk Lee used for Chung Do Kwan. April 26, 2007   Bigzilla.

'''"Quietmartialartist: I would like to start off with saying: Thank you for showing some respect, Errant. I hope you enjoy the ensuing argument as much as I undoubtedly will." ''' Thank you as well, however, I have no desire to argue with you. Your statements above and the evidence you have provided show that you do not have a proper understanding of the relationship between Hangul and Hanja and how the Korean language works. I hope the following will broaden your linguistic understanding.

'''"Quietmartialartist: No, I'm afraid I'm not that fluent in writing/speaking Korean or Chinese." ''' While I am nowhere near fluent, I am relatively conversant in speaking Korean, can read the phonetic alphabet of Hangul, and have a working knowledge of Hanja. Please take that into consideration.

'''"Quietmartialartist: Not to mention my eye sight is good enough that I can visually tell one character from another, albeit I don't know how many different meanings one character has." ''' I will re-iterate that Hangul is not made up of characters, but rather, phonetic syllables, like the English language. This is important, because the evidence your provided me is not Hanja, Chinese characters, but rather phonetic Hangul. As such, they have no meaning on their own, but rather, merely represent sound.

''' Quietmartialartist: The first link is a picture of the certificate I received when I achieved 1st Degree Black Belt.   Notice the 5th character from the left on these pictures? They're all: 도 ''' Unfortunately, your evidence means nothing, because it is written in Hangul, not Hanja. Again, that is not a character with a meaning. It is a phonetic syllable, a sound cluster. As such, your evidence offers no indication that 도/Do in 청도관/Cheongdogwan means "Way". It merely tells us that the second syllabic cluster in the name of this school is pronounced 도/Do.

'''"Quietmartialartist: Considering the above three links I think that it is fairly safe to say out of the two translations 'Way' is the correct one. Because no where on this page does it mention 'Wave/Waves' as a possible translation." ''' Again, the fact that you do not understand how the Korean language operates in its relationship with Chinese characters becomes apparant here.

First 道 is not a translation of 도/Do. You are looking at it backwards.

도/Do is how a Korean would pronounce 道.

A Korean would also pronounce 濤 as 도/Do.

A Korean would pronounce 賭 as 도Do.

The Chinese character is the word. It existed first. The sound 도/Do is merely the Korean pronounciation of this word of Chinese origin.

You do not look up 도/Do, you look up the Hanja. In the article you referenced, two different Hanja are provided. However, if you scroll down, you will see a list of different Hanja, in the section labelled Hanja Homophones. In other words, Chinese characters that utilize the same phonetic sound, 도/Do.

度/도/Do, which means degree, manner, or system, or alternately, to consider

都/도/Do, which means metropolis, capital, all, the whole, elegant, or refined

導/도/Do, which means direct, guide, lead, to conduct

島/도/Do, meaning island

圖/도/Do, meaning diagram, chart, map, or picture

途/도/Do, meaning way, road, path, journey, or course

到/도/Do, meaning go to, arrive, been to

徒/도/Do, meaning disciple, follower, or to go on foot

And...

濤/도/Do, meaning large waves

Please understand that when referencing Hanja, the phonetic sound 도 has no independent meaning. It only tells you what the Korean pronounciation of the Chinese character sounds like. It is not a word with a meaning by itself. Looking at your patches or your test certificate will not tell you which Hanja the 도 references. This is why I provided you with links to Julian Lim's certificates, because they were written in Hanja, and they wrote 靑濤館, not 靑道館.

The fact that the Wiktionary article only lists two Hanja for the sound 도 under the "nouns" section is irrelevant. It lists more Hanja under homophones. Secondly, Wiktionary is a growing dictionary, whereas the Korean Hanja dictionary I have sitting beside me lists 40 different Hanja for the sound 도.

''' Quietmartialartist: I think you missed the meaning of my question the first time, so I'm going to try my best to explain this: Quote Errant: "The hanja 濤 translates as Wave. In Japanese it is read as To, as in Shotokan, the Pine Wave School, from which Cheongdogwan derives."

That character reads as "To" in Japanese? Then why is Cheongdogwan spelled with do? I must be confusing the two languages. ''' Remember, Chinese characters (Hanja to the Koreans, Kanji to the Japanese) were invented by the Chinese, but used all around Asia. Pronounciations differed from country to country, though meanings of individual characters largely remained the same.

I will give you three characters as an example.

松濤館

Someone who speaks Mandarin Chinese will look at these three characters and will pronounce them Songtaoguan.

A Korean speaker will look at those three characters and pronounce them, Songdogwan. He would then write them in phonetic Hangul as 송도관. However, without the Hanja, another Korean reading what the first Korean wrote would not likely know the original three Chinese characters.

A Japanese person would look at those three Chinese characters and pronounce them as Shotokan, Funakoshi's style of karate.

All three of them, Korean, Chinese, and Japanese, would look at those three characters, and know that they meant the Pine Wave School. They would just pronounce them differently. Shoto, or Pine Wave, was Funakoshi's pen name for his poetry. Hence, why his school was called the House of the Pine Wave.

In naming his school of Korean karate, Won Kuk Lee reflected the heritage of his training by naming it the School or House of the Blue Wave, just as Funakoshi's was the Pine Wave. This is how we know that Cheongdogwan was written 靑濤館.

Again, I recommend you get ahold of "A History of Modern Taekwondo" by Kang and Lee. Also, the following two articles explain the difference between Hanja and Hangul,.

"Quietmartialartist: (Oh, by the way, I am studying Japanese)"

Best of luck with your studies! Do you understand the differences between Kanji and katakana and hiragana? It is similar to the difference between Hangul and Hanja.Errant108 05:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Errant has provided you (and anyone reading this, including myself) with an excellent, clear and detailed explaination of this issue of meaning and difference in Hangul and Hanja/Hanmoon. Well done Errant.  April 2007  Bigzilla.


 * Yes he has. Thank you Errant. I still have one question however. Is it not possible that the characters used in Julian Lim's certificates were just someone's interpretation of 청도관? Quietmartialartist 16:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it is not possible, considering that Julian's certificates are from the Official "Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan, Korea", signed by it's President, UM, Woon Kyu. These are the original Hanja Characters that Won Kuk Lee used for his Blue Waves School. Your certificate has the Hangul lettrs, which came after the Hanja, and are an interpretation of the Hanja. I know it is hard to change your belief, but no matter how much you want it to mean Blue Way, the facts is, it is not. Once again, you should read the modern history book's Hanja, or, contact the Chung Do Kwan HQ in Korea directly.

April 2007 Bigzilla.


 * The Blue Wave School as the name of Won Kuk Lee's is supported by other historically verified sources. The name reflects his training in Shotokan.  On top of these two factors...a blue wave makes logical, poetic sense, whereas no one quite knows what a blue way is.  I am sorry, but Blue Way is someone's misinterpretation.Errant108 16:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Chung is Korean for blue. In Korea blue symbolizes "Pure" correct? Well then it would be translated as "Pure Way". My teacher told me that it is true Grand Teacher considered "Waves crashing on a beach" when he was thinking of a name, but that "Wave/Waves" didn't make it into the name.

Again, may I ask: Couldn't 靑濤館 and 靑道館 both be possible (mis)translations of 청도관? Quietmartialartist 18:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "Quietmartialartist: Again, may I ask: Couldn't 靑濤館 and 靑道館 both be possible (mis)translations of 청도관?"


 * No, because again, you are misunderstanding the relationship between Chinese characters and Korean phonetic syllables.


 * 청도관 did not come first, as it would have no meaning. It would just be three sounds, not words.  靑濤館 came first, meaning Blue Wave School, and 청도관 is just how those characters are pronounced in phonetic Korean.  I am not sure where your teacher is getting his information.  As I have said, historical resources and documentation show us that the Won Kuk Lee named his school the Blue Wave.Errant108 18:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "historical resources and documentation" in a Modern History of Tae Kwon Do? Or elsewhere? Quietmartialartist 19:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The Cheongdogwan proper in Korea, which uses the Hanja 靑濤館, Blue Wave School. The book by Kang and Lee I listed before.  Every reference I have ever seen in the course of my life has been 靑濤館.  I have never seen it written 靑道館.Errant108 19:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Quitemartialartist, ever hear of the Chung Do Kwan Alliance ? this what they have to say about BLUE WAVES;

"The Honorable Won-Gook Lee felt strongly that an oppressed people with no weapons should develop “empty-hand" martial arts and he founded Tang Soo Do, Chung Do Kwan (Way of the Chinese hand, Gym of the Blue Wave) upon his return from Japan in 1944.He was the first Director and Headmaster of Chung Do Kwan, the oldest non-military gym in Korea.While a student at Chuo University in Japan, Hon. Lee had studied Shotokan Karate under its founder Hon. Gichin Funakoshi.The naming of his school “Blue Wave” was a tribute to his teacher’s nom de plume “Shoto” (Pine Wave) to indicate there was a link, but not slavish copying." April 2007 Bigzilla

(Moved from above. Please stop editing comments into my original paragraphs. -QMA) Taekwondo was developed by many great men who were students of many great men, all important in the great scheme of things. However it is wrong to give the majority of the credit for this development to one early individual (Won Kuk Lee). He was one of many. April 26, 2007 Bigzilla

What you can't answer the question, why, because the Chung Do Kwan Alliance DISAGREES with you on the whole BLUE WAY thing? Bigzilla


 * Quote Bigzilla: "What? Why can't you answer the question? Because the Chung Do Kwan Alliance DISAGREES with you on the whole BLUE WAY thing?"
 * Is that what you meant to say? It's much harder to understand you when you're angry, perturbed, and/or agitated, whatever emotion is causing you to enter messages before they've been properly edited.


 * At any rate, I think I got the gist of your question, and will respond to it.


 * 1. Where are they getting their facts? And 2. Are you sure "Shoto" means "Pine Wave?" If "Blue Way" doesn't make sense, I don't see how "Pine Wave" does.


 * "Quietmartialartist: 1. Where are they getting their facts?"

'''
 * I think I've been pretty patient with you so far, so forgive me if this reads as being a little frustrated.


 * They're getting their facts from the plain and simple point that they can read Chinese characters and Korean phonetic lettering, of which you have admitted you can do neither. If you continue to insist that Cheongdogwan is not "Blue Wave"...prove it with legitimate historical or linguistic information.  Bring me documents that use the Hanja you insist on.  Hanja.  Not Hangul.


 * Frankly, you are not really in a place to be arguing any of this. Since I have explained the way the Korean language works specific to this issue, your entire argument has become "Are you sure?"


 * Yes, I am sure. I am sure, and anyone who can read Chinese characters and Korean hangul is sure as well.


 * If you wish to continue this debate, come back with positive evidence to prove me wrong, rather than just repeating the same questions.


 * "Quietmartialartist:2. Are you sure 'Shoto' means 'Pine Wave?'"


 * Yes, I am absolutely sure that 松濤/Shoto means Pine Wave.


 * "Quietmartialartist: If 'Blue Way' doesn't make sense, I don't see how 'Pine Wave' does."


 * Pine Wave was Funakoshi's pen name. He was a poet.  Pine Wave is a descriptor of the image and sound of the wind softly blowing through the branches of the pine trees.


 * Without evidence, you have run out of room here.Errant108 03:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Quitemartialartist, try this, search CHUNG DO KWAN, and read the histories. How many are in favor of BLUE WAVES? How many in favor of BLUE WAY? I only found one website in favor of Blue Way, and that was the Boston/D.C. school where you got the information. Once you have done this, maybe you will finally decide to research what Errant is telling you. May 2007   Bigzilla.


 * Quote Errant: “I think I've been pretty patient with you so far, so forgive me if this reads as being a little frustrated.”


 * Yes you have. I appreciate your attempts to “set me straight.” ;)


 * Quote Errant: “Frankly, you are not really in a place to be arguing any of this.”


 * No more than you.


 * Quote Errant: “Since I have explained the way the Korean language works specific to this issue, your entire argument has become ‘Are you sure?’”


 * Yes, until I talk to Master Choi or find information to back me up I can not argue the issue further than I have. Now I am just trying to clarify what you have said.


 * Quote Errant: “Yes, I am sure. I am sure, and anyone who can read Chinese characters and Korean Hangul is sure as well.”


 * Sure that what you are reading means what it means, not that it is correct. On a side note, reading Korean Hangul can go numerous ways in meaning, yes? According to you there are some 15 different meanings for 도.


 * Quote Errant: “If you wish to continue this debate, come back with positive evidence to prove me wrong, rather than just repeating the same questions.”


 * I fully intend to. The only time I recall asking you the same question over again was because you weren't answering it in your responses.


 * Quote Errant: “Without evidence, you have run out of room here.”


 * I’m afraid so for now.


 * Quote Bigzilla: "How many are in favor of...?"


 * Ha. Now you expect me to believe you because the majority thinks something? Come on BigZ, you can do better than that. Statistically, the majority are ignorant. Quietmartialartist 19:45, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * "Quietmartialartist: No more than you."


 * Unlike you, I speak Korean and read Hanja. Everything you have said from the beginning has shown you "literally" do not know what you're talking about.


 * "Sure that what you are reading means what it means, not that it is correct."


 * It's correct. It's been historically verified.  I've provided you with paths to find the information.


 * Do a Google search with the Hanja you have, not that it will matter since you can't read Korean.


 * '''"On a side note, reading Korean Hangul can go numerous ways in meaning, yes? According to you there are some 15 different meanings for 도."

'''
 * No, you still don't understand.


 * When referring to Hanja-based terminology, 도 has no independent meaning. 도 is nothing but sound.  Do you understand this?


 * There are no meanings for Do. It's just sound.


 * The meaning is in the Hanja.Errant108 05:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

WOW, it's like trying to de-program a cult member. QM will never get it, this this has been exhasted and is now a waste of time. --Bigzilla 06:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Quote Errant: "Unlike you, I speak Korean and read Hanja. Everything you have said from the beginning has shown you "literally" do not know what you're talking about."

I can see you're not as humble as you were before.

Quote Errant: "While I am nowhere near fluent, I am relatively conversant in speaking Korean, can read the phonetic alphabet of Hangul, and have a working knowledge of Hanja. Please take that into consideration."

So is my source. Therefore your point isn't really valid, or at the very least it is not as valid as it would be if it was just me saying this.

Quote Errant: "It's correct. It's been historically verified. I've provided you with paths to find the information."

You can point me in a hundred different directions but you have yet to point at an undeniable reference that proves what you're saying. Show me a historic picture including Won Kuk Lee and several high ranking students, with the Hanja for "Blue Wave School."

'''Quote Quietmartialartist: On a side note, reading Korean Hangul can go numerous ways in meaning, yes? According to you there are some 15 different meanings for 도.'''

...Believe me, I understand now and have understood what you said a week or so ago. You misunderstood what I just wrote. If a Korean reads a Hangul character, "phonetic syllable," it doesn't mean any one thing. "...reading Korean Hangul can go numerous ways in meaning..." In fact, it was your very clear, and well laid out explanation of this that has forced me to stop my argument and question it. Kudos.

Here's something I recently noticed:

Quote Dakin Burdick: “Lee Won-kuk (Lee Won-gook) founded the Chongdokwan (True Path Hall) after his return from Japan in January 1944.” (Found on page 3 out of 10)

There's a source I didn't even know about. Dakin Burdick agrees with me, because after all, 道 can mean either Hall or Way. Whereas 濤 only means Large waves.

'''Quote Errant's response: “Dakin Burdick is considered to a well-researched scholar in the martial arts literary community, and his article has more fact in it than this Wikipedia article. If you take issue with his statements, contest them with sources, not ad hominum attacks.”'''

You said so yourself he's a "...well-researched scholar in the martial arts literary community."

I am sorry that I am too stubborn to just accept what "evidence" you have presented.

'''Quote Bigzilla: WOW, it's like trying to de-program a cult member. QM will never get it, this this has been exhasted and is now a waste of time.'''

Bigzilla, if you want to put special emphasis on a word, please use Italics. Random words in all capital letters is an eyesore. Also, if you're going to use the abbreviation don't forget the A.

Now, onto my response: It is funny that you mention being a "cult member." I was discussing this with an acquaintance just tonight and he compared you to a cult member when I told him of how you cited "How many are in favor of...?". Which, now that I contemplate it, was really quite clever.

If you consider this a waste of time, perhaps you should come back when it isn't, or better yet, stop responding. I can tell courtesy and patience are not your strongest attributes. Quietmartialartist 04:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I have a request for both of you. Tell me a little bit about your martial arts background and how long you've been at it.


 * I also have a question Bigzilla and two for Errant. Bigzilla, what do I have to provide you for you to truly consider the possibility that Chung Do Kwan means "Blue Way School"? Errant, have you heard that Won Kuk Lee received the honor of "Living National Treasure"? And who do you think deserves mention/credit for how Tae Kwon Do came to be today? Quietmartialartist 18:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It should be noted that the United States Chung Do Kwan association states the following: "In 1942, a gentleman by the name of Won Kuk Yi (Lee) founded a unique method of teaching TaeKwonDo to a group of students rather than "one on one." He called his method of teaching "Chung Do Kwan," which can be translated several ways, such as "The Great Blue Wave" and many other translations relating to man's first source of power-"the force of water." However, GrandMaster Sell prefers to use the translation 'a mighty wave smashing against a rocky shore...'" -- this statement may be found here: What is Chung Do Kwan?. SunSw0rd 14:17, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I have been training since 1969 in nations like USA, Canada, Mexico, Italy, Croatia, Germany, France, Japan, Okinawa, China and often in Korea, but, it does not matter where, or how long we have been training. What matters is what the leaders of Chung Do Kwan state about the translation of the name. How do I know this? I know them personally and have trained with them personally, even though Chung Do Kwan is not my roots (sort of). What else do I have? I have a Korean language interview with Won Kuk Lee where he states Chung Do Kwan is Blue Waves. I have the Korean Language book by two Kwan leaders that explain Taekwondo history and it shows the Hanja for Blue Waves. I have old Chung Do Kwan photos with the Hanja for Blue Waves written on it. I have access to MANY websites that list Chung Do Kwan as Blue Waves School.

Oh, and I have one person I know of, out of thousands who claims that Chung Do Kwan is Blue WAY school, and basis that on Hangul, which is a gross error! That person still does not understand the relationship between Hangul and Hanja.

I know for a fact that Won Kuk Lee named his school Blue Waves School. Won Kuk Lee himself disagrees with you. I have all the evidence I need.

I feel it will take you several years to realize this. Please get back to me in say, 2012. Kindest Regards. --Bigzilla 08:34, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

"I have a Korean language interview with Won Kuk Lee where he states Chung Do Kwan is Blue Waves."

Provide a link and I'll have Master Choi look it over. I might point out that originally the story of Cinderella had wooden shoes in it. Mistaken translations happen all the time. I have admitted as much for my theory, and it displeases me that you seem unable to do the same.

"I have the Korean Language book by two Kwan leaders that explain Taekwondo history and it shows the Hanja for Blue Waves."

Most books are incorrect. This one is no different, it's authors are not infallible to mistakes.

"I have old Chung Do Kwan photos with the Hanja for Blue Waves written on it."

Prove it. Provide a link to them here using photobucket/imageshack.

"I have access to MANY websites that list Chung Do Kwan as Blue Waves School."

Again, statisticly the majority are ignorant.

"...who claims that Chung Do Kwan is Blue WAY school, and basis that on Hangul, which is a gross error!"

I base it on my teachers and their teacher. I have told you this. Please read these before responding to me again: WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF.

"That person still does not understand the relationship between Hangul and Hanja."

Hangul represents sound, Hanja represents words. You're mistaken about the present and yet you think that this could not have happened in the past with the translation of Chung Do Kwan?

"Won Kuk Lee himself disagrees with you."

Oh, and how do you know this? Are you aware that he died in 2003? I wouldn't be surprised if you did not considering you've never even heard that he was honored with the title of "Living National Treasure."

One of my teachers will be joining this dicussion soon. He has a working knowledge of Korean literature. Please provide your evidence (pictures, links, etc.) before then. Quietmartialartist 16:44, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

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I look forward to discussing this with your teachers. At that point I will be excited to tell your teachers and you, my identity. I am sure that Errant will find this interensing as well. Also, I am not so up on photo bucket and such, but, I will learn about it and do as you request. I have already scanned these documents and just need to do the uploading? I always enjoy being accomplice to experts finding out that the moon is indeed not made of green cheese. :) Oh, and Won Kuk Lee personally told me so before February 2, 2003 :)

Also, please, I have improved my grammer, English spelling and such ~ greatly over the years, and I am still working on it, as you can see, so any corrections you provide, like you did above, are greatly appreciated. Kindest Regards, Bigzilla. 14 May 2007.

Not sure how to do this, but here it goes. Where to find the following on photobucket. I will add more as I locate it, but as you will see, what I provide so far, is really all you need to show that Chung Do Kwan is Blue Waves, NOT, Blue Way.

1. http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/KwanUnityDocument1975.jpg Official document of the Korea Taekwondo Association with names, titles and signatures of   the nine Kwan presidents, in Hanja. See the eight (8th) line down, you can clearly see the Hanja, in the hand writting of UM, Woon Kyu, for Blue Waves School.

2. http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/MHCDK1.jpg From the Modern History of Taekwondo written by two Kwan leaders (Song Moo Kwan and Jidokwan) TWICE in this article, you see Chung Do Kwan written in Hanja as Blue Waves School. You also see the other Kwans using a different Hanja for do.

3. http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/KarenEdenBookCDKwaves.jpg Even the Idiot's Guide get's it right. Wowm not bad considering Karen Eden messes up just about everything else.

So, here we see, Chung Do Kwan clearly written in type, AND BY THE HAND OF THE CURRENT CHUNG DO KWAN KWANJANG (World Leader) as Blue Waves. End of story. May 16 - Bigzilla

Oh, please show me proof that Won Kuk Lee was honored as a National Living Treasure, otherwise, he was not. May 16, 2007  Bigzilla

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A little searching on the net finds that quitemartialartist own organization can not agree on the translation of Chung Do Kwan. QM, check out Master Choi's student in the UK. He says it means Blue Waves. http://www.wtkd.co.uk/pdfs/The_Kwans_of_Taekwondo.pdf

And just for fun, A CHINESE Chung Do Kwan website from Hong Kong, with the header as BLUE WAVES! Amazing, the Chinese read the Hanja DO as Waves.... interesting. http://www.chungdo.org.hk/Home.htm May 17, 2007  Bigzilla

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Your first picture is interesting. I'm certainly going to print it off and have Master Choi examine it. As for the second picture, I already told you that I don't find a book/picture/certificate written by anyone other than Wok Kuk Lee as a reliable information. Now for the Idiot's guide... While that may be appropriately named, you said so yourself that: "Karen Eden messes up just about everything else." If that is the case then shouldn't that be an issue in using her as a reference?

Master Choi doesn't have a student in the UK. I'm surprised it even mentions him. "Amazing, the Chinese read the Hanja DO as Waves.... interesting." I'm glad you're so enthusiastic. Of course the Chinese read the Hanja 濤 as Waves. This still doesn't back up your theory that it was the original translation by Grandmaster Lee. Quietmartialartist 02:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

---

Where is your proof that DO is Way in CDK? Where is your proof that Won Kuk Lee is a "Living National Treasure?

You don't find an authentic Chung Do Kwan certificate reliable, yet you base your notion on the your certificates, that were made up in the USA?

Hanja is a Korean word, not a Chinese word. Somehow you don't seem to understand this, even after Errants long detailed post.

What you fail to understand about the Modern History Book is that book was compiled from official records. It is not just some book, buy some guy. May 18, 2007 Bigzilla

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Proof for Do being Way? I'll give it to you when I get the chance to ask Master Choi about it. Proof that Won Kuk Lee is considered a "Living National Treasure" for his contributions to the Korean Martial Art? I'm expecting a reply soon. I find it bewildering why you're in such a hurry to get a confirmation on that. It is not as if I have been insisting on entering it into the Tae Kwon Do Wikipedia page. Yet.

Let me see your "authentic" certificate. Because my certificate was made in the USA it must some how be fake? What do you base that on? Because very few things are made in the US anymore?

I understand exceedingly well. '''Quote Wikipedia: Hanja is the Korean name for Chinese characters. More specifically, it refers to those Chinese characters borrowed from Chinese and incorporated into the Korean language...'''

I would like to see those official records from the Modern History Book. Quietmartialartist 01:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

You already said you would offer proof It has been months, and you still offer no proof of your claims.

You already saw Julian Lim's Authentic Chung Do Kwan certificates issued by the Official Chung Do Kwan Headquarters in Korea. The certificates you presented were not issued by the Official Chung Do Kwan and are not recognized by them. However, if you think otherwise, contact the Official Chung Do Kwan directly and find out for yourself.

You already saw a photo of the Official Records in the Modern History Book that shows the hand written Hanja for Chung Do Kwan as Blue Waves School. You stated you would show it to Master Choi and get back with me, remember?

You still insist on changing the name to Chung Do Kwan to Blue Way on the Chung Do Kwan page, yet, you have offered no proof. In fact, Errant and I have offered sold items of proof that Waves is correct. So until you offer soild proof, stop changing the page or it will be reported as vandalism. May 21, 2007  Bigzilla

The first time I mentioned it was April 4th. Just over a month and a half ago. Between now and then I have offered you solid proof. Quote Quietmartialartist April 8th: "See Tae Kwon Do Times issue: “March 1997” It says it on the front, but here is the rest of the article: http://www.tmafitness.com/Portals/0/Won%20Kuk%20Lee%20Interview.pdf " I have that article, but I can't find the front of it on the internet. Again, may I ask why you are so antsy about getting proof for his being awarded the honor of "Living National Treasure"?

I'm sorry, but certificates made in 2003 and 2005 don't prove that that was the name Won Kuk Lee gave his school. I thought I told you that my Kwan is a splinter group of In Mook Kim's organization. Contact him and ask him. Quote Bigzilla: "I have old Chung Do Kwan photos with the Hanja for Blue Waves written on it." You still haven't shown me those.

I looked for this: "'A History of Modern Taekwondo" by Kang Wongsik and Lee Kyongmyong.'" On the internet and I can't find anything about it. Anything. The one thing that came up was this talk page. When was it made and where can I find a review for it?

I live over two hundred miles away from Master Choi. The next time I see him will be June 21. I'll have my evidence, hopefully, by June 22/23.

Until then, please sit tight. I altered the paragraph in question so that it didn't blatantly say: "This is how it's translated." It states my kwan's exact interpretation of it. It was there before I even came to Wikipedia, i.e. someone else put it up. It's down near the bottom of the article. I'm leaving the translation(your translation) near the top of that page alone. I'm making an effort to be diplomatic and yet you are unwilling to do the same.

You are not in a position to report me when you yourself have been banned and probably will again when a Wikipedian reads how you have blatantly insulted me and accused me of lying, even after I provided you with links to the Wikipedia articles for Civility and Assuming Good Faith. Show me an old Chung Do Kwan photo (including a picture of Won Kuk Lee and his students) with the Hanja for Blue Wave School and I will stop bringing back the paragraph you keep deleting.

---

Still, you have offer up ZERO proof. I have read the article you posted from tmafitness, and it proves nothing. First of all, it's on tmafitness letterhaead! they re-wrote it, so who knows! Second, nowhere does Won Kuk Lee mention Blue Way (if it is Won Kuk Lee's words at all).

I scanned the Chung Do Kwan section directly from the Modern History of Taekwondo for you. Look above. If you would like the read the English translation, here is a link at Stanford University. Enjoy! http://www.stanford.edu/group/Taekwondo/documents/tkd_history.pdf  If you would have searched for A Modern History of Taekwondo, you could have found it yourself.

The book is for sale in Korea only, as it has only been published in the Korean language. Kyong Myong Lee gave me a copy while I was in Korea. I can scan any part of the book you would like to see.

Note the opening paragraph for Chung Do Kwan states: "Its symbolized Chung Do Kwan's name, Bluewaves, meaning a youngster's spirit and vitality." So there we have it! Do you doubbt the translation? I was so cool to provide with a link above to read the original Korean article.

Julian Lim's 2000+ certification is valid proof as it comes from the original Chung Do Kwan, started by Won Kuk Lee, not some American print shop.

As soon as I can locate the Korean interview with Won Kuk Lee, and the old photo graphs I will share them, until them, I hoped you could at least provide some proof for your claim, however, to this point, you have provided nothing but some tmafitness marketing flyer history. For this reason you have not grounds to change the article, and I can report vandalism if I choose. I could pull this to arbitration, where you would loose for sure, but I thought I would give you a chance to provide the proof you say you have, but have yet to produce. May 21, 2007 Bigzilla

- I found the Korean language interview with Won Kuk Lee. Here, we can see that clearly Chung Do Kwan is properly written in Hanja as Blue Waves School.

Page 1 http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/WonKukLeearticle1stpagescan.jpg Page 2 http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/WonKukLeearticle2ndpagescan.jpg

Quitemartialartist: "I thought I told you that my Kwan is a splinter group of In Mook Kim's organization. Contact him and ask him."

Good idea! Let's take a look at what he has to say on his website.

“The ACTA can trace its roots directly to Grandmaster Lee Won-kuk, who founded Chung Do Kwan and developed the largest civilian gym, the Gym of the Blue Wave.” In Mook Kim, your Grandmaster disagrees with you! See it here: http://kimsacta.com/kimsblog/?page_id=25

If that is not good enough, ask your Grandmaster at askgmkim@kimsacta.com

Again, I have offered solid proof that Chung Do Kwan is Blue Waves School. This from an interview with Won Kuk Lee himself, to your own Grandmaster! Where is your proof? May 21, 2007  Bigzilla

We can see clearly that that is what the interviewer wrote. Not that it wasn't a mistake. You still have no proof that Wave is how Grandmaster Lee wrote it.

Do you think that could be one of the reasons Duk Kyung Choi split from his group? One reason I know for sure was because Master Choi found out In Mook Kim was cheating the main school in Korea out of the money it was supposed to receive from every person that passed a certain belt. As you can imagine I hear all sorts of good things about "Grand"Master Kim. This source, like a lot of your sources, just wasn't a good choice.

Again. June 25th. The next time I will see Master Choi will be June 21st. Maybe sooner if I am lucky. Maybe. That's the Blue "Way" School proof. I wrote a letter to the Korean Embassy and if you have a problem with how long it's taking for them to respond perhaps you should write another letter complaining to them. Of course, my letter will already probably be responded to by then. ;) Sit tight.

Go to the Chung Do Kwan talk page for some of my evidence.Quietmartialartist 17:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is proof of how Won Kuk Lee translates it. We can clearly see how every Korean who ever writes Chung Do Kwan translates it the same way, as Blue Waves School. The differnce is, Won Kuk Lee actually told them it was Blue Waves School. So far we have seem every native Korean writer prove you wrong. But yet you feel that a header from a Taekwondo Times (garbage) Magazine, which you still have not produced, would have been acceptable proof, and you do not accept the above article, from the most athoritative Taekwondo magazine in Korea?

A visit from your Grandmaster is not acceptable proof, sorry. Also, I don't want to get into a McCoys vs. Hatfields (Choi vs Kim) discussion. Those pictures you posted, though very nice, are pictures of a Dan test. Not proof of what Do means in Chung Do Kwan. May 23, 2007 Bigzilla --

No it is not. Show me something that Won Kuk Lee wrote himself. Or Won Kuk Lee in front of a 靑濤館 header. Until then, your evidence is no better than that "garbage" magazine. Perhaps you misunderstood exactly what "evidence" it is. It says...*reaches across desk and sifts through papers*...here it is:

"To inaugurate it's series on founders of Tae Kwon Do, TKDT sent East Coast correspondent Kang Seok Lee and publisher Chung E. Kim to Vienna, Virginia, a suburb of Washington D.C., to interview Grandmaster Won Kuk Lee. Born April 13, 1907, Grandmaster is one of the oldest living masters of Tae Kwon Do. Grandmaster is a graduate of Central University law school in Japan and served in the Internal Affairs division of the Republic of Korea's Ministry of Interior. He was declared a "living national treasure" by the government of the Republic of Korea. The Grandmaster lives as a retiree with his wife, Young Do Lee. He enjoys calligraphy, acupuncture, hunting, and the Asian board game, Pa Duk, as well as maintaining his life-long interest in Tae Kwon Do."

That is what it says on the front. Word for word, capitalization for each word. Even the title which I felt should have been capitalized, I left it alone.

A visit from my Grandmaster is acceptable proof depending on what information he provides. Quote Bigzilla: "I don't want to get into a McCoys vs. Hatfields (Choi vs Kim) discussion." Understandable, considering the things I've heard. Ask Master Kim about Master Duk Kyung Choi. I'd love to hear his statements. =D

It is a nice picture and I guess you don't remember that I only posted that because you were so demanding of evidence that I wanted to give you some solace while proving my ties to the "official" Chung Do Kwan. I haven't had Master Choi translate it yet. Quietmartialartist 00:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

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Well, OK, still you have offered nothing that even remotely proves Chung Do Kwan as Blue Way. Anyway, Taekwondo Times is the greatest source of Taekwondo mis-information. The writers and editors are terrible. Best Regards, May 23, 2007 Bigzilla

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And what information do you have to prove that your magazine isn't as well? Quietmartialartist 15:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC) - I publish no magazine. However, World Taekwondo does, and their interview with Won Kuk Lee shows he call Chung Do Kwan as Blue Waves School. This I offered, you, well, you have offered nothing but some marketing paper from some American TKD school. You need to do better than that. June 2, 2007 Bigzilla.

This is a rather interesting discussion. From my experience with Japanese, Chinese, and Korean languages, homophones are a tremendous influence. The word for luck sounds like belly, bat, and others. Four is unlucky because it sounds like death. The point I'm getting at is that all references are to what GM Won Kook Lee called his "school". A spoken answer could, as presented above, be translated as True or Virtuous Path/Blue Way/Blue Wave. Possible mistranslations would be immediate. Is it possible that GM Won Kook Lee chose the name on purpose to make people study and search for an answer? The only way to get the answer would be from him, which isn't possible. I believe that Master Choi's students will only believe him and that Kim's students will follow him. Lionhardht 23:26, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I went with my teacher to visit Master Choi yesterday. It was a short meeting, discussion over dinner after the testing of his students. I didn't get any visual evidence to post, but I did get some information to go on:

As soon as Master Choi saw that picture, after not seeing it for who knows how long, he translated it the same as the other two people who translated it here on Wikipedia. He also pointed out himself amongst the people sitting down in front of Won Kuk Lee.

When asked about Blue Wave, he said point blank, "No." Chung Do Kwan meaning, "Clean life". Chung meaning Blue, with Way meaning "Pure" Way. The Korean word for "Wave" pronounced "Pah-tee."

And finally, he said that Shotokan doesn't mean "Pine Waves House." While Shoto was Gichin Funakoshi's pen name, it is not part of the school name, rather, where it is from. Upon getting back home, I found that Wikipedia agrees with Master Choi: Shoto. Please read the second sentence near the top of the page.

So, other than that, what is your logic for the name Blue "Waves", Bigzilla? Or Errant for that matter, if you're still around.

Hello Mr. Lionhardht. Quietmartialartist 16:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

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QM ~ "I didn't get any visual evidence to post" Some solid, official "visual evidence would be helpful in attempting to backup your claims. Oh well.  June 3, 2007  Bigzilla

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I guess a combination of haste and Wikipedia code messed up your response.

I suppose you refuse to answer my questions lately because I might realize just how little you really know about these topics.

In my previous message I pointed out the flaws in your logic for Blue "Wave" and you have nothing to comment on that? Strange.

Quote Bigzilla: "...their interview with Won Kuk Lee shows that he calls Chung Do Kwan: 'Blue Waves School'."

No it doesn't. That's just the header, the rest of the article is in Hangul, which of course, has no meaning. According to you and Errant.

Further more: I just looked up "Wave" in the Wiktionary and Master Choi was correct. Wave is pronounced: Pah-do in Korean. Interesting how you don't hear any "Pah" sound in Chung Do Kwan. Quietmartialartist 18:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

--

Your logic is childish. Erant and I both provided you many examples, you to this date have provided none. You have presented nothing. All your responses to our presentations are just bable with no substance. I am done discussing this with you because you have been and are now acting foolish. When you get something real, I will respond to you, until then, have a nice year. Best Regards, over and out ~ June 3, 2007. Bigzilla

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Do not include yourself in the same arena as Errant. Errant did an exemplary job of explaining his reasoning/logic/etc., maintaining a calm and level mind, while you from the get-go have shown nothing but contempt for me and anything I have to say that contradicts your believes.

Yes, you both provided examples. However, only Errant's was satisfactory.

'''Quote Bigzilla: “…that book(Modern History of TKD) was compiled from official records…”

I'm still waiting to see those "official records".'''

Quote Bigzilla: “I look forward to discussing this with your teachers.”

Lionhardht is the teacher I referred to.

Quote Bigzilla: "I have old Chung Do Kwan photos with the Hanja for Blue Waves written on it."

I’m still waiting...

Quote QMA: “I looked for this: ‘A History of Modern Taekwondo’ by Kang Wongsik and Lee Kyongmyong.'" On the internet and I can't find anything about it. Anything. The one thing that came up was this talk page. When was it made and where can I find a review for it?”

It’s curious how most of your sources are not in such a form as to be reviewed by others.

You see? We both have yet to provide promised evidence. ;)

Goad me as much as you want. When I finally present my evidence it will be one more nail in your coffin when the arbitration committee comes in to end this. Quietmartialartist 00:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC) -- Let me know when you have gathered all your evidence, I'll will be looking forward to arbitration :) Best Regards. Bigzilla June 6, 2007 --

Well, I would like to say that it seems that Errant has basically proved that Chung Do Kwan is written "靑濤館"; seems quite clear to me. Errant has made quite an effort to show documented evidence, which he did - would seem only courteous to respect that effort and not just push the other argument endlessly anyway. Edededed 08:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC) --

I agree. Errant provided evidence and explained the basis of Hangul dependency on Hanja which proved that Chung Do Kwan is Blue Waves. I provided various Korean documents that supported this. It seemed quite clear to me as well. We should include Errant in any arbitration. Bigzilla. June 11, 2007

--

But of course, he is the only one that provided any solid evidence on the matter. I do respect his efforts. I'm just trying to understand where a mistranslation could have occurred. By either party. Quietmartialartist 00:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

--

Errant has gone above and beyond what most people would do to provide many examples of evidence that Chung Do Kwan is written "靑濤館"; not only that, he wrote up a detailed explanation of the whole Sino-Korean homonymn phenomenon. The evidence is undeniable at this point; I don't see how one can reject this if one is actually looking at this information. At any rate, I think that Errant has tired and thus is not participating in this debate anymore, which is understandable.

As for mistranslations - I think that mistranslations are a simple matter, especially in light of the large number of Sino-Korean homonymns, and since most in the English-speaking world have only heard of the "way" meaning for "도". As noone can actually "hear" the difference in the various "도" words, there really would be no way for anyone to guess which Hanja it is supposed to be; the simple fact that many Koreans are using the "濤" character (a rather rare character that is seldom used) to write "Chung Do Kwan" is illustrative enough for me. (I.e., noone would guess to use the "濤" character on their own; if one did not know how to write Chung Do Kwan, my guess is that many would probably use the "道" character, simply because it is more widely used.)

As you are studying Japanese, you will also notice the large number of Sino-Japanese homonymns - the situation is actually even worse than for Korean, since Japanese has far less sounds, forcing more imported Chinese words to be "merged" into the same sounds, so to speak. Note that the original Chinese language was much better, since they had more vowels, more consonants, and tones as well - far more "tools" to use for differentiation. In actuality, Chinese is NOT a good language to import into Japanese or Korean, but it is too late to do anything about that now!

Edededed 01:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC) --

I agree.

Quitemartialartist: "I, however, did point out that Shoto in Shotokan doesn't mean Pine Waves"

Go read Funakoshi's book, Karate Do My Way of Life, where he writes about how his students built a dojo for him and named it after his pen name. In his book Funakoshi explains the relationship between Blue, the pine trees and Waves and why he chose Shoto as his pen name. Mean time check out the Wikipedia article on Shotokan and Funakoshi where the same Hanja for waves is used.

Julian Lim's OFFICIAL Chung Do Kwan certificate links are still up, clearly showing the SAME Hanja for waves on his certificate logo.

Check this Chinese page out! http://pinewave.tw/main.php  :)

Quitemartialartist: "Wave is pronounced: Pah-do in Korean."''' Quitemartialartist: "The Korean word for "Wave" pronounced "Pah-tee.'''

You seem unsure.

All this must really suck, huh? June 12, 2007 Bigzilla


 * Hmm - there IS a word "Pah-do" (波濤) for waves in Korean (notice that the "Do" part is the same as in Chung Do Gwan; the other character is the more common character for "wave"), but I don't know of one called "Pah-tee"...


 * I always thought that Shotokan meant pine waves as well; at any rate, looking at the characters, that is what it apparently means (松濤舘). Also remember that "blue" in the various East-Asian languages is actually a somewhat vague color term compared to the English word; the color range includes blue, green, and an almost blackish green.  :) Edededed 00:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

--

Quote Bigzilla: "You seem unsure. All this must really suck, huh?"

Not really. I don't mind the possibility of being mistaken. I'm human, after all.

Quote Wikipedia Article: "The homophonic Shōtō (松濤:しょうとう) is the name of a mainly residential district of Shibuya ward in Tokyo."

Something I think is interesting, is how the same Hanja is used for this district in Tokyo and is also in Shotokan. More interesting still, that Master Choi knew this as soon as my teacher asked him.

"Pah-tee" was my mistake. I didn't write down the pronunciation before I went to bed and was unsure how the last part was when I woke up.

I have a question for you, Edededed, considering you seem to be quite the language wizard. I noticed one of the articles Bigzilla posted was all in Hangul: http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/WonKukLeearticle1stpagescan.jpg If that's the case then it must be more complicated than what Errant says, that it means nothing at all, it's just sound. Who would write an article that is literally filled with: "Blah blah blah, um, blah, blah blah"? Quietmartialartist 15:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

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Wrong. The article contains the Hanja for Blue Waves School. You just keep ignoring it, like every other piece of evidence that has been presented by a number of people. The article was meant for Korean readers, not you. Once a Korean knows the subject of the article, they generally understand which word the sound means. We have some simular situations in English. Anyway, Blue Waves School was spelled out in the very beginning of the article. Bigzilla June 13, 2007


 * I don't know what Errant said (not going to search for it in this now huge thread :) ), but I am guessing that he meant that the article was mostly written in Hangul (the phonetic alphabet), and not Hanja (the ideograms). Hangul is much like the English alphabet; we only have 26 letters, but by sticking spaces and punctuation in, we can comprehend what we are reading.  The difference is that a great majority of Korean vocabulary are loanwords from China; decades ago, many Koreans simply wrote these loanwords as Hanja (Chinese characters).  We can simulate this sort of thing by replacing Hangul with English.  For example:


 * English + Hanja: I am studying 唐手道 at the 青濤舘 under 李元國.
 * English only: I am studying tangsoodo at the Chungdogwan under Lee Won-Guk.


 * Or, alternatively, using Japanese (which is much more similar to Korean) instead of English, ignoring Kun readings for a moment as Korean does not use these:


 * Hiragana + Kanji: わたしは李元國の青濤舘で唐手道をならっています.
 * Hiragana only: わたしはりげんこくのせいとうかんでからてどうをならっています.


 * As you can see, the first line(s) have left the Sino-Korean words in the original Chinese characters. The good thing about this is that we can see exactly what characters are used to write the Sino-Korean words.


 * The second line has replaced the Hanja with their pronunciations; the problem here is that although we (hopefully) already know how to write "tangsoodo" in Chinese characters (being a known word), Chungdogwan and Lee Won-Guk are names, and thus it would be very difficult to guess what Chinese characters they were supposed to be written with. It doesn't "mean nothing at all" - surely it would mean a lot to those few people who are familiar with the name already - it is that people unfamiliar with these names would not be able to guess their meanings.


 * As a result, even in this article itself, for just these two names, the Hanja are given to us (at the top of the page), as even native Koreans wouldn't know how to write them otherwise. Edededed 01:31, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

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Quote Edededed: "As a result, even in this article itself, for just these two names, the Hanja are given to us (at the top of the page), as even native Koreans wouldn't know how to write them otherwise."

Yes, I noticed.

Quote Bigzilla: "Wrong. The article contains the Hanja for Blue Waves School. You just keep ignoring it..."

Did I say it didn't? The header includes Hanja for Blue Waves School. Not the article. Analyze my wording before jumping to conclusions. I wouldn't say anything unless this was perpetual habit of yours. Quietmartialartist 01:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Guys -- can't you drop this foolish argument? Or move it over to Talk:Chung_Do_Kwan??? SunSw0rd 14:16, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

This discussion will end on the 25th or near it. If you head to the top of this section you'll see that originally I had said nothing about the translation of Chung Do Kwan.

To my sum my first comments up: 1. Won Kuk Lee doesn't get enough mention/credit. 2. External Influence and Modern Tae Kwon Do should be combined. 3. How Tae Kwon Do is written on Wikipedia.

1. Waiting for Korean Embassy's response. 2. That will also be resolved, I hope, by Embassy's response. 3. I now couldn't care less, considering Bigzilla is so adamant about it being spelled incorrectly. Quietmartialartist 02:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, if you didn't care about the translation of Chung Do Kwan, why did you argue with Errant and Bigzilla about it for pages and pages?! But whatever, no need to argue about it even more.


 * As for the other issues you brought up, I think that a lot of the problems here are a result of the nebulous definition of "taekwondo" as used by many (especially Korean) writers. Thus, people write that "taekwondo was practiced in ancient times" ("taekwondo" meaning "martial arts" here), for example - not a very good definition, noting that the word did not exist until much later.  Thus, Won Kuk Lee of course had a strong role in that he created the first kwan in Korea that taught what would ultimately become taekwondo later on.  However, the naming of "taekwondo" is also a very important date for us, since that is when it first began to exist as a separate idea (from tangsoodo/kongsoodo/karatedo, as it was called previously (or even taekkyon, as some nonpractitioners mistakenly called it)).


 * So, in my opinion: mention Won Kuk Lee a bit more, but leave external influence and modern taekwondo alone (if only because having it divided seems easier to understand). Edededed 00:44, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I care about the translation. I was just pointing out that was not what I originally came here to discuss.

Mention Won Kuk Lee a bit more? He isn't mentioned once. =\ Quietmartialartist 14:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I met with Master Choi this weekend as planned. I brought the documentation for him to review. He said 靑道館 was correct and that Chung Do Kwan has nothing to do with Water. He said that he would bring a book of Korean/Chinese characters for better clarification when he comes to visit on August 18th.

I am not interested in simply proving you wrong, Bigzilla, or of accusing your teachers of being mendacious. These are our fundamental differences. I want to discover how this translation mix up could have occurred. Feel free to comment, as long as it is polite and constructive. Quietmartialartist 01:53, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Politely offered ~ you still have not one scrap of evidence, and, Duk Choi is mistaken, according to his seniors, those who trained directly with Won Kuk Lee. Kindest Regards. Bigzilla June 26, 2007

Do you not get tired of repeating yourself?

I wish you actually wanted to discuss this topic. Quietmartialartist 14:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

D.C. Meetup Are you going to this, 'Zilla? If you do, you could meet Master Choi. That's where his studio is located. Quietmartialartist 14:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms section added
I added a criticims section to the article. I think such a section is important in order to have an overall objective article on Tae Kwon Do.70.127.5.141 14:35, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's really necessary. At least what you put up there. Quietmartialartist 21:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I recently reverted changes in the criticisms section. As mentioned before, I envision the criticisms section to be an area where the shortcomings of a particular martial art is brought to light. For example, in Judo strikes are rarely covered. In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu stand-up grappling (in general) is not covered on a regular basis. In karate, submission fighting and takedowns are not covered. Criticisms will allow a reader that is looking up information on a martial art to have a better understanding on the strengths and weaknesses of a particular martial art. Rockpyle26 14:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Subjective criticisms are inappropriate and certainly doesn't deserve an entire subsection. Please check WP:A if you're not familiar with wiki policies on attribution.  Previous attempts at adding this were summarily rejected and nothings changed since then. Thanks. 168.216.66.107's mysterious deletions were also returned. melonbarmonster 04:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with you that subjective criticisms can be innapropriate. I read the attribution section on wikipedia as you suggested.  If similar criticisms to the ones I posted could be attributable to a reliable published source then I think the criticisms should be added.  I'm not talking about Jow Blow from a blog either.  As I stated before I think criticisms of a particular martial art are important if you are to have an objective, informative article. Rockpyle26 18:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is "criticism" synonymous with "objectivity." I was about to ask if we'd have to include "Criticism" sections in the Mother Theresa and Ghandi articles, but it turns out they both have them so ... I find this practice generally annoying. Criticizing something doesn't make you objective toward it unless it's to balance praise. The article isn't generally lauditory towards tae kwon do, merely explanatory, so I fail to understand why every article needs a criticism section other than to shut up the people who can't stand to have something they don't like discussed with an opportunity to trash it. Bjsiders 07:16, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Front kicks
Not a peeve, but an observation and comment - they only kick shown on the pages for a front kick is a snapping / thrusting front kick. At a minimum, there should be about seven kicks that could be classified as a front kick : snapping / thrusting, rising, crescent, hooking, pick-shaped, downward, and checking. This actually leaves out a few more that can be performed in a front 'direction' but may confuse the issue, such as turning or twist.

I have been trained, and I encourage my students as well, to make sure you know which kick is required. A front snapping kick could be done thrusting (with the ball of the foor), pressing (flat footed, and as opposed to a checking kick), or piercing (with the heel) as legitimate front kicks. Foot swords and some other foot tools would be a little goofy, and probably wouldn't contribute anything of value.

--Mgorsha 16:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, agreed. Not enough front kicks.

Ubershock 14:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Dan titles?
On the page it says this about the ITF system: As far as I know this is completely incorrect and should be: And there is no 10th Dan within the ITF. But since it's a relatively big change and I might be misinformed I'll see if anyone objects to this change. 113 11:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 1st Dan - 4th Dan: "Instructor" (Boo-Sabum)
 * 5th Dan - 6th Dan: "Master" (Sabum)
 * 7th Dan - 8th Dan: "Grand Master" (Sahyun)
 * 9th Dan- 10th: "Great Grand Master" (Sasung)
 * 1st Dan - 3rd Dan: "Assistant Instructor" (Boo-Sabum)
 * 4th Dan - 6th Dan: "International Instructor" (Sabum)
 * 7th Dan - 8th Dan: "Master" (Sahyung)
 * 9th Dan: "Grand Master" (Sasung)
 * The International Taekwondo Federation page agrees with you. SunSw0rd 13:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

NPOV - Tribalism
After reading through the Taekwondo page I feel that there is way too much tribalism. There is too much information from the POV of either the ITF or the WTF in general sections. It's quite confusing the seperate the information between the ITF and the WTF, I think that should this information be included that the page be divided as having all it's general sections, avoiding too much reference to any POV materials such as the promotion table, then below the general sections have two more sections, one for WTF and one for ITF which is then divided into sections about belts, promotions, titles etc. --Michael Hall 14:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not clear on what information you're proposing to include.melonbarmonster 14:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll draw up a sketch of what I mean when I get the time so you can see. --Michael Hall 15:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay maybe ignore the part about the WTF and ITF sections as now I'm looking around Wikipedia more I see they already have pages. Still, the taekwondo page is far too tribalized. I'll still come up with a quick sketch outlining what I think should be sorted out. --Michael Hall 17:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Media depiction
I removed a lot of fancruft from this section [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taekwondo&diff=136475367&oldid=136346672, since it essentially became a trivia section. An indiscriminate list of every fighting game character that uses this style adds nothing to the article. All of the characters mentioned have their own articles that state that they use taekwondo. Including that info here adds nothing to the understanding of taekwondo's actual development and use. I think a comment on the page source may be necessary to help discourage future editors from bringing it back. I also removed the movie mentions since it was mostly unsourced claims and didn't at all feel enecyclopedic. --75.2.64.186 23:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)