Talk:Taekwondo/Archive 5

As of 18:00, May 17th, 2008
The article is looking much better guys. Keep up the good work. Quietmartialartist (talk) 22:01, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Philosophy section
The section on philosophy has, I feel, become somewhat too large -- not just in terms of the newly-added Jidokwan information, but also the ITF portion. The tenets are already mentioned elsewhere in the article, and the oath and tenets are also presented in the International Taekwondo Federation article. I am not suggesting that there should be no kwan-specific information the article, but we probably don't need this level of detail on philosophy here when the organizations have their own articles. Omnedon (talk) 22:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Since there has been no response or objection, I've moved the Jidokwan philosophy section to the Jidokwan article (and have asked for a citation there), and have removed the ITF philosophy section which seemed to have been the same as in the International Taekwondo Federation article. Instead, there are simply links to those two articles.  The ITF philosophy section needs some cleanup, though.  Omnedon (talk) 03:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Ranks, Belts and Promotions comments
On reading through this article I found there are some minor errors in the Ranks, Belts and Promotions section:

The WTF/Kukkiwon standards do not mention the title "Grandmaster" in any of their documentation. This is a traditional title and is used by convention and courtesy for those holding a 7th Dan or higher but has no official status.

The title of Master is used for those who have obtained the rank of at least 4th Dan. In the official Kuk-Ki-Won Textbook (Oh-Sung Publishing Co., Sept. 20, 1995 English Edition) the term "master" is used interchangeably with the term "instructor" but there is no direct association with any specific rank. The title of Master is also generally only used with adults. The WTF/Kuk-Ki-Won does not recognize a 5th Poom (junior black belt). The rank of 4th Poom is not officially recognized in their documentation but certifications for this rank have been granted in recent years.

The title of "Sabumnim" (instructor) is a courtesy traditionally used for an adult instructor holding a 4th degree or higher. It is usually associated primarily with the senior instructor or school owner in a setting where there are multiple individuals with ranks considered master's level. The WTF/Kuk-Ki-Won has no test or certification requirement for this title.

--CharmsDad (talk) 18:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC) However, in the ITF, the title "instructor" is only permitted for use by those with the 4th degree international instructor certificate and above. A master is he who holds the 7th-8th degree black belt and the Grandmnaster is a 9th degree black belt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.59.110.104 (talk) 14:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect. The Kukkiwon considers Master to mean the same as Mister, and is for Dan and Poom ranks from 1st to 4th Poom, and 1st to 5th Dan. Grandmaster is more formal, like "sir" and is for 6th Dan to 9th Dan. Also, Kukkiwon has a course and a test for "Sabum", or, instructor. Once a person achieves Kukkiwon 4th Dan or above, and, has completed the course and received a graduation certificate, they can apply for the Kukkiwon Sabum Shimsa, or Instructor Exam. If that person passes the exam, they will be issued a Sabum Gye Gyuk Jung, or, Instructor Qualification Certificate from Kukkiwon. I was in the first group of USA graduates in 1998. There is no need to include the WTF in this discussion as they have nothing to do with Taekwondo ranks, curriculum, or titles. Al Cole (MasterCole@aol.com) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.241.142.143 (talk) 08:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

It is difficult to determine the point you are trying to make. It would help if you would write in complete and coherent sentences. It would also help give credence to your claims of being a master if you did not use such a combat tone in your post. “Sir” is used for any male person, particularly one that is older or higher ranking than you. “Sabumnim” is a courtesy title for any master level (4th Dan or higher) and is independent of any additional testing or certification. You are confusing culture/courtesy with rank/certification. "Master" is the title used for those 4th Dan or higher (not 1st - 4th Poom or 1st - 5th Dan as you state in your post.) "Grandmaster" is the title often used in reference to those holding a 7th Dan or higher, as I described previously. WTF is the governing body so they absolutely should be included in the discussion. If the WTF is not included the Kuk-Ki-Won is meaningless. (“Kuk-Ki-Won” is how the name is spelled in their own English translations in reference books and other materials. "Kukkiwon" is how the name is spelled on rank certificates.  There is no consistency in how this name is presented in the official materials.)CharmsDad (talk) 04:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I know it sounds combative when some offers up different information than the misinformation that you are posting. Please list your sources for the claims you make above in regard to Kukkiwon, WTF and titles.

Just to give an example of the errors you are making in your claims above, lets start by taking a look at this one where you stated "The rank of 4th Poom is not officially recognized in their documentation " You are incorrect. Here on the Kukkiwon (not Kuk-Ki-Won) website, we find that 4th Poom is clearly documented in the Kukkiwon Dan regualtions. See Article 8: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01

Oh, and your claim that it is written as Kuk-Ki-Won, no, take a look at their latest Textbook published Feb. 5, 2006. According to the Kukkiwon, today and for the past several decades, Kukkiwon is officially written as one word. http://www.amazon.com/TAEKWONDO-Textbook-Kukkiwon/dp/B000QG1EMQ

One more, just for fun. Above you made the claim "The title of Sabumnim (instructor)--- The WTF/Kuk-Ki-Won has no test or certification requirement for this title." I'm not sure where you get your information from, but a simple check of the Kukkiwon Academy section of the Kukkiwon website shows that the Kukkiwon disagrees with your claim above.

Check here http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/training/training04.jsp?code=11&div=04, see section '''3. Qualification for Participation''', part 2 where it states "※ Those who completed the course shall be qualified with the Instructor Certificate through the prescribed examination later when they obtain the Kukkiwon 4th Dan Certificate"

If you can get yourself to the point of learning something new, I can help clear up some confusion. If you just get angry and decide to throw around insults, then no one can teach you anything. I am ready to share information, and sources if you like. But first I suggest that you take a moment and research the sources I just provided for you.

Thank you. Al Cole (Mastercole@aol.com)76.205.90.154 (talk) 05:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, now you switch from the combative approach to and snide and condescending one. As for learning, I continue to do so constantly. You, on the other hand, are clearly set in your small self rightous little world. The Kukkiwon does NOT disagree with my claim, which is so easily checked as you pointed out. They have a test for an "instructor" credential, but that is not and has never been required for anyone to be addressed with the title of sabumnim. Maybe you should bother to learn something new. You already stated in your first post that those with a 1st to 4th Dan are the same as "Master", something which is clearly in error. As to the spelling of Kuk-Ki-Won/Kukkiwon, walk down to a library and look at a copy of their official "Taekwondo Textbook" and check the spelling. For that matter, go into the store right there by their building in Seoul and you will find multiple spellings (often in the same publication.) If you actually knew anything about Korean culture (careful, you might learn something here) you would know their translations into English text are often done phonically and spellings vary wildly. Just in the Seoul airport it can be quite interesting the variety of spellings used in the various signs for common English words. (My favorite was always the "comportable underwear", but there were so many others.) This is simply the nature of the culture and not either a negative or positive.

Now, if you can just get off your high horse and try and learn the world has many things you don't know and that it doesn't revolve around you. Just maybe, if you open your mind to this, you just might actually learn something.CharmsDad (talk) 08:59, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Competition Section Comments
The section on WTF sparring section also has errors. For both junior (14-17 years old) and senior competitions each match consists of three 2 minute rounds with a 1 minute break between each round. (WTF Competiton Rules: http://www.wtf.org/site/rules/competition.htm) This was set for all matches except male finals with the 2001 revision and applied to male finals with the 2003 revision. These changes were prior to the introduction of both the 7 point gap rule and 12 point cap rule (both introduced with the 2005 revision.)

In the event of a tie score at the end of the third round a 4th "sudden death" 2 minute round will begin after a one minute rest. The first athlete to score in the 4th round wins the match. If, at the end of the 4th round, the score is still tied then the officials will decide the winner based on initiative shown in the 4th round.

In addition, the article makes a reference to the referee counting but does not indicate that if a 10 count is reached before the athlete indicates he/she is ready to continue then the match is over and the other athlete wins by knockout.

CharmsDad (talk) 06:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)