Talk:Tai peoples

Tai history
http://www.uta.edu/faculty/jerry/pol.pdf

http://www.weilichubanxuezhe.com/LNCO%20sample%20paper.pdf

http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Lao/LaoLanguage/spoken_lao/introduction_map.gif

03:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

About the Thai
I found that in the Japanese Wikipedia, it said that the Thai (ไท) is came from ancient Chinese Da (大). It said that the character 大 has word 大人 (Daren), it's meaning big person, and then it became free person so it has meaning "freedom" "human". At the old day in Thailand, it has the sentence "Where you the Thai come from" between the non-slaver people. It's different from slave (ทาส). It's true? Do you think it's really? Have someone to answer the question?--S7w4j9 (talk) 11:16, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I've just edited the article. The information that I've just added can answer your question.Bookworm8899 (talk) 06:15, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

The Lao in Jiaozhi (Giao Chi) and the southwestward migration of Tai-speaking tribes
On his blog, Liam C. Kelley, a Professor of history (University of Hawai'i at Manoa) mentions a group called “Lạo Tử” (獠子) written in a 14-century Vietnamese historical text (Brief Treatise on An Nam [An Nam chí lược]).

Kelley writes about the name “Lạo Tử” (獠子) as follows:


 * "While it would be tempting to call these people “Lao,” in actuality this term probably referred to various peoples, from Lao to Black Tai to even some speakers of languages that were not part of the Tai language family."

And then quotes a passage mentioning about this "Lạo" group in the Vietnamese historical text written in the 14th century:


 * "Lạo Tử is another name for savages. There are many in Huguang and Yunnan. Some serve Giao Chỉ.* There are also some who tattoo their foreheads and bore their teeth. There are quite a few different types of them. It was recorded in the past that there are Head-Shaped Lạo Tử, Red-Pants Lạo Tử and Nose-Drinking Lạo Tử.** They all live in cliff caverns or nest huts. They drink wine through reeds. They are fond of warring with enemies and they beat bronze drums. They value big ones. When a drum is first completed, they place it in a courtyard with wine and invite their fellow kind. Those who come fill [the courtyard] to the gates. The daughter of the notable takes a gold or silver hairpin and strikes the drum, after which she leaves it with the owner. Some say that the bronze drums were the gongs used by Zhuge Liang when he campaigned against the savages [in 225 A.D.]."

There is another passage writes about the "Li" and "Liao" as follows:


 * "According to the History of the Later Han [Hou Hanshu 後漢書], Ma Yuan obtained Lạc Việt bronze drums in Giao Chỉ/Jiaozhi. The Record of Guang Region [Guangzhou ji 廣州記] [records that] the Li and the Liao cast drums out of bronze. Only those that are tall are valued, and over a meter wide. When a drum is first completed, it is hung in a courtyard. Wine is placed there and they invite their fellow kind. The daughter of a notable takes a gold or silver hairpin and strikes the drum, after which she leaves it with the owner. Also, the History of the Sui [Suishu 隋書] the various savages all cast large bronze drums. When there was some incident they would sound it and people would arrive like clouds."

In general, from what Kelley writes, the Lao/Liao did live in the Red River delta and served in the Court of Jiaozhi (Giao Chi). They also cast bronze frums and valued them. The Lao/Liao's and Li's presence in the Red River delta is mentioned as early as the 1st century BCE.

Related articles on Liam C. Kelley's blog that mention about the Lạo/Liao group and Tai people:


 * Vịet, “Chinese,” Savages and Bronze Drums
 * A Fox Corpse, West Lake, and the Divided Population of Medieval Vietnam (This article mentions the existence of a Tai-Kadai group in the West Lake (Northern Vietnam).
 * Why Was Hoa Lư a “Grotto”?
 * Was Phùng Hưng Tai? What About Ngô Quyền?
 * The Vampires of Hưng Hóa (an 18th century text)
 * Mang Savages in the Red River Delta

Gustmeister (talk) 19:48, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

First, regardless of Liam Kelley's academic credentials, his blog is not a scholarly source. Second, nowhere did Kelley identify historical Lǎozǐ with modern Southwestern-Tai-speaking Lao people. The modern Lao people's ancestors still identified themselves as Thai (just like their SWT-speaking cousins) until they founded Lan Xang in 1353 did they borrow the Lao ethnonym to formulate a new national identity. The modern descendants of the Lǎozǐ were most likely that Northern-Tai-speaking Rau peoples & Kra-speaking Gēlǎo people. Kelley even cautiously called the Red River delta a "multiethnic region", not a Kra-Dai-only region & never denied the existence of Austroasiatic speakers there.

Third, all core Tai-speaking groups (Norther, Central, & Southwestern) did not even move out of Guǎngxi until, at the earliest, 8th century & 10th century CE, at the latest, (Pittayaporn, 2014). Just because Ma-Yuan had confiscated bronze drums from Jiaozhǐ in the first century CE & 14th century CE Huguang & Yunnan Laozi (who, as Lê Tắc asserted, clearly did not reside in Jiaozhǐ, yet were only neighbours of the Jiaozhǐ's indigenes & occasionally served the latter group) were still beating bronze drums after the mostly Sinicized Jiaozhǐ folks had abandoned that custom, that alone does not mean that their Jiaozhǐ > kɛ:w neighbours must be allegedly all Kra-Dai-speakers & not Viet-Muong-speakers, especially when the earliest layer Sino-Vietnamese loanwords is dateable back to the Later Han period (2nd-3rd centuries CE), thus providing the strongest evidence for the presence of Viet-Muong speakers in the Red River delta.

Fourth, there exists no evidence of Kra-speaking or Hlai-speaking groups' alleged presence in Jiaozhǐ ever. Where are the layers of Kra & Hlai adstrata in Vietic?Erminwin (talk) 21:01, 10 December 2018 (UTC)