Talk:Taipei American School/Archive 1

Ok, can we try to hash this out now?
Now that we're not in danger of 3RR and in the middle of reverts back and forth, let's try to get this hammered out. Here are my suggestions:


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 * I think there is some good information at the State Department that would be good to add. Wikibofh 14:05, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Third, let's talk about the stuff you are trying to add and find out facts so that we can work those in. You'll notice, for instance, we didn't revert the rape case in controversy because it was sourced and relevant.  You obviously have some strong views on this as well as local knowledge.  Honest...that is very valuab.e

I had never even heard of TAS before this article and only got involved because of the apparent vandalism. Let's make it better and move forward. Wikibofh 23:40, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Puja Germs issue
According to only one source I was able to find on the Internet, Puja Germs apparently is some tag game Some of the users on this discussion forum are a little skeptical about including the alumnus Puja Mahtani. According to the TAS Alumni Directory (which only alumni members can access), Puja graduated in 2002, which is a bit too recent to make this person a noted alumnus of the school. If Puja did go to college, then this person should by a junior in college by now. I would recommend removing this person's name from the noted alumni list, especially when we don't know if "Puja Germs" is actually defaming this person. I would like other members of this discussion to provide input and if really necessary, we could have a vote on this. I'll be using the alumni directory to verify the other alumni on the noted alumni list. Allentchang 18:37, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * If a discussion about the Puja Germs issue does not take place in the next two days, I will strike Puja Mahtani from the record. Allentchang 02:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Your course of action and research seem reasonable to me. Wikibofh 22:13, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Puja Germs is not just a tag game, its an entire culture. However, I can't find it a on google right now. But Puja mahtani is definitely a legit noted alumni.

Dude, Allen, Puja Mahtani is a famous alumni. She was before your time. She was a great lady. So don't desecrate her memory please.

Other alumni
Alexander Liang is probably not listed on the alumni directory because he graduated fairly recently (2004). There is a Jack Hou listed who graduated in 2002, but there is no Jack Hou graduated in 1959 listed possibly because the alumi directory doesn't go to the 50's. I will be going to the UC Berkeley Library Main Stacks to search for Time Magazine's 1969 August issue to verify Jack Hou's identity and provide the exact date of the issue. All other alumni are verified through the directory. I strongly recommend that a link/source can be provided about Alexander Liang's actions. Allentchang 18:50, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Allentchang 02:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I was unable to find references to Jack Hou among the August 1969 issues of time magazine. May I have the exact date and page?  Please also indicate if it is the US edition or the International Edition.  If I don't get enough information about where exactly to find stuff about Jack Hou in one week, I'll remove his name from the list of alumni.  All I saw was Woodstock, Edward Kennedy ending up in a car accident, Nixon visiting the Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceau&#351;escu who would be killed twenty years later, Roman Polanski only 36 years old, the Vietnam War, border clashes between the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China, and reports about the moon exploration.  Also, I would like someone to find a link regarding Alexander Liang.

http://www.lib.ntust.edu.tw/php/libnews.php?mid=1371&grp=ntust.depart.dt 68.121.211.14

http://news.chinatimes.com/Chinatimes/newslist/newslist-content/0%2C3546%2C110503+112001090400045%2C00.html 68.121.211.14

Library renovation
This summer TAS is hoping to begin construction on completing renovating the four floors of its libraries. This is the most ambitious project the school has undertaken since it moved to its present Shih Lin campus.

A team of architects from the United States worked with the TAS community to design the new library. It will be the first of its kind for an international school, with a Mandarin Library wing, wireless connectivity throughout, extensive added studies areas, and yes, even a proposed café for the rooftop.

The project is being supported by the Friends of TAS Foundation, a non-profit 501(c)3 foundation registered in the United States. We are hoping to receive donations of all amounts from parents, faculty and alumni. Please consider a contribution that fits your budget to make a meaningful difference on our campus. 

Daisy Yang...
I'm not sure she belongs in Noted Alumni, and whatever the incident is, it shouldn't be shoehorned there. I also don't think describing someone as from the class of 2008 is very useful. The grammar was also off but given the other deficiencies, I chose to simply revert that edit. Here (blacklisted link)  is a link that seems to be about this issue...the link didn't work for me but the Goggle cache did. Wikibofh 15:39, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Balance of the Force
Several of us have tried to "balance the Force" (sorry for the cheesy Star Wars term) and tried to prevent one user from making the article too negative. Now I have the feeling that somehow it is now unbalanced towards the direction of flattery. . . . *sigh* Allentchang 21:34, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd love to have a balanced, well sourced, factual criticism of TAS added. Regrettably, no one has been able to provide such.  Wikibofh 21:49, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * The problem with this is that TAS is in fact a school that does what it sets out to do very well. Criticisms of it generally comes from people who have some kind of odd chip on their shoulder.. stemming anywhere from simple envy to genuine misunderstanding, most likely somewhere in the middle.  As I pointed out earlier on this page, the exclusive and perceived elitist nature of the school makes it a giant media magnet.. people love to see institutions like these falter.  What would hardly pass as news at one school can stir up significant controversy if it were done by people affiliated with TAS. --BenjaminTsai 02:17, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Benjamin, aren't you getting a little carried away with TAS by writing these articles? 50th Anniversary of Taipei American School List of Taipei American School Superintendents Mark Ulfers Granted, you did write a very detailed article about Stuyvesant High School, which offers (gasp!) 50 AP courses. Allentchang 16:32, 9 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Allen, I didn't write the article on Stuyvesant, merely edited it slightly. As for TAS.. well, perhaps, perhaps I am. :)  It happens to be one of the things I can speak with some authority on. --BenjaminTsai 16:42, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

benjamin tsai you didnt even graduate from tas. what authroity do you have to speak about it 216.100.135.9 06:46, 14 May 2005 (UTC)


 * And you who hides behind an anonymous IP, from what authority do you have to speak about anything? I may not have received my high school diploma from TAS, but I've spent more years (8 to be exact) at TAS than most other alumni of TAS. --BenjaminTsai 13:46, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

ok, i am not the same anon, but i received my high school diploma from TAS and i spent 13 years at TAS. I feel more than qualified to talk about TAS. You didn't even graduate. WHy do you care? 63.201.35.145 08:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Passport, Peking University
First, there is no such thing as a "Taiwan Passport." Until pan-Green camp is successful in renaming the country to Taiwan, it will always be more accurate to refer to the passport and other government organs as belonging to the R.O.C. government.

Second, the official English name of Beijing University is "Peking University." For some reason, they haven't decided to update their name to reflect the modern pinyin standard. Until they do, please don't change it to "Beijing University." --BenjaminTsai 10:57, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Leading Universities
Who decides what a leading university is? I feel that some don't belong. If people add their own university all the time, it's going to start getting full. Opinions? Cliffe 03:01, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


 * A leading university can be simply defined as an university which is widely considered by people within the field as a leader in some major field of study. The interesting question then becomes what a major field of study is.  I feel all six listed currently satisfies this requirement, though that can change as one begins to narrow the definition of what a "major" field of study can be. --BenjaminTsai 06:33, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Romanizations
Hanyu Pinyin is preferred except when you're dealing with placenames. The official ways to spell these places in Taiwan can be found on Wikipedia. EX: Taipei (basterdized Wade-Giles), not T'ai-pei (correct Wade-Giles); Kaohsiung, not Kao-hsiung(Although this is the correct Wade-Giles.) Until TAS changes its name to Taibei American School, it'll still be Taipei American School. Same goes for KAS. As for people's names, spell them as how their passports spell it. (Could be verified through TAS's alumni page) By this I mean, if their first names don't have a dash, don't add one, even if it's not the correct conventions of any of the romanization systems. Because that's how their official documents spell their names.

CHINESE names: A basic rule for Wade-Giles is that the letter after the hyphen should not be capitalized. EX: Chen Shui-bian, not Chen Shui-Bian. This holds true for both MPS II and Wade-Giles. (In both Wade-Giles and MPS II, names ALWAYS contains a dash.) In Hanyu Pinyin, there's no space, or dash in between the first names. (I doubt that any TAS student would have such convention since very few TAS students are from China...Unless from HK, but HK residents aren't required to use Mandarin to spell out their names, most likely it would be in Cantonese, with a space in between the first name.) Never omits the apostrophes ' in Hanyu Pinyin. That's just like ommiting ' in O'sullivan. That being said, same goes for any other romanization systems. (Unless their legal documents state otherwise, of course.)

Here's a good site for you to check your romanizations, MPSII, Wade-Giles, Hanyu Pinyin, Yale, and Tongyong Pinyin are all here: http://140.111.34.69:8080/nationallibrary/index.jsp?open You can use this to determine in which romanization certian things are spelled.

ENGLISH names: However, if it's an English name, the first letter after the hyphen in a compoud name should be capitalized. EX: Mary-Anne, not Mary-anne.

JAPANESE names: No spaces, no dashs. Japanese passport official site: http://www.seikatubunka.metro.tokyo.jp/hebon/index.html

KOREAN names: Always a space in between the first name, first letters always capitalized. However, Koreans almost always have their LAST name placed in front of the First name. EX: Lee Jun Hee, Lee is the last name, Jun Hee is the last name. But since we're dealing with koreans in TAS, we can use the Americanized standard. Which is, to avoid confusion, write it as either Lee, Jun Hee or Jun Hee Lee.

Do we have a census on this?


 * I wonder why you are expressing your romanization opinions over here. You can certainly express them in the talk pages related to the Wikipedia Manual of Style.  As for using the term "basterized Wade-Giles," be a little careful here as you could be confusing that with Postal Pinyin.

Allentchang 18:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


 * In common practice Wade-Giles suffers from a fatal flaw. If the apostrophes are omitted from the system, Wade-Giles becomes "bastardized" (the correct term, even if sounds vaguely offensive) and largely useless. (Technically, Wade-Giles uses ayns, not apostrophes; but the distinction is not one most people need worry about.) When I say "bastardized Wade-Giles," it's not Postal Pinyin, since Postal Pinyin uses popular spellings given by other countries or local dialects.

"Basterdized Wade-Giles" is the correct term to describe the usage of omitting the apostrophes.
 * I felt that I needed to provide some background information on the romanization schemes since our TAS page had many erorrs on the romanizations before. However I also stressed about the importance of respecting individuals own choices of romanizations for their names. Allen, I hope this would help.

Shilin vs Shihlin
I notice that people have been reverting it back and forth between Shilin and Shihlin. Since Taipei has adopted Hanyu Pinyin has the de jure romanization scheme and the world de facto, I suggest we stick with Hanyu Romanization for street addresses in Taipei (Taibei). --BenjaminTsai Talk 02:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

But all the documents as well as the official history of TAS still use a form of Wade Giles. Unless TAS officially decides to adopt Hanyu Pinyin in all of its correspondence as well as its website, we should not in effect be the Taipei City Government equivalent of the romanization fashion police. The Wikipedia Manual of Style is vague on how to exactly deal with the issue we are facing. It does indicate for instance that if a person showed preference to have his/her name romanized to a particular scheme, we should follow that scheme rather than effectively force another scheme on the person without the person's permission. For instance, my name is Allen Chang, but neither Wikipedia nor the Taipei City Government should have my name spelled as Allen Zhang. We should at least also provide a Wade Giles romanization as a reference so that visitors would not be puzzled by the differences in Romanization between the TAS website and the Wikipedia. On politically charged note, I don't completely buy the Taipei City Government's argument that we have to use Hanyu Pinyin because that is the world standard. The same argument could be used that Taipei City should adopt simplified Chinese characters because simplified Chinese characters is considered an official UN language rather than traditional Chinese characters. But this discussion would be best carried on in another discussion board. Allentchang 18:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't buy it, either. (That we have to use Hanyu Pinyin because it's the world standard.) I'm also a lover of correct Wade-Giles, but Hanyu Pinyin is the current Taipei (basterdized W-G)/T'ai-pei (W-G)/Taibei (Hanyu)/ Tai-bei (Tongyong;MSPII) standard, so I suggest we use it for street addresses in Taipei. But again, people have the right to choose any romanization systems they want for their own names. EX: [Alexander] Leehom Wang should never be asked to change his name just because his name isn't romanized by any of the existing romanization systems.
 * But again, even as a lover of correct Wade-Giles, I have also noticed it is true that Wade-Giles isn't user friendly in practice. Even a basic word such as "Taiwan" that we use daily isn't following the rules of Wade-Giles! "Taiwan" has been romanized that way since our ROC government moved to Taiwan when Hanyu Pinyin wasn't even invented yet. (It should be romanized as T'ai-wan in Wade-Giles.) [However, Taichung (basterdized W-G) was noted as T'ai-chung when the ROC government came to Taiwan.] This is because Wade-Giles is acutally more linguistically sound, developed by Dr. Wade and revised by Dr. Giles. It is indeed a better system in linguistical practice, however, it is poorly designed in the view of users who aren't natural linguistics. Therefore, one would say that the value of adopting Hanyu Pinyin is at its larger user base, resulting from it's user friendliness.
 * The funniest thing is that Shihlin (claimed W-G) is not following any of the existing romanization rules.
 * If we are aiming for a W-G reference, it should be noted as "Shih-lin" not "Shihlin."
 * Existing romanization spellings of "Shilin" (Hanyu):
 * Shilin (Hanyu)
 * Shih-lin (Wade-Giles)
 * Shr-lin (MSP II)
 * Shrlin (Yale)

["Romanization" creater Melvin Su]

Shilin campus
The high school moved from Taipei proper to the Shilin campus in 1964, rather than 1969. The first graduating class at Shilin was 1965.

Merging TAS Superintendents
I don't think it will be appropriate to merge the article in question into the main Taipei American School as it'll add too much clutter.. yet the article right now as an independent article may lack notability. --BenjaminTsai Talk 12:54, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * How about only mentioning TAS's first superintendent along with Mark Ulfers and the current one (in a sentence like, in 2005, so-and-so replaced so-and-so.)? TAS Student 23:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Sure, I think this is reasonable. --BenjaminTsai Talk 23:23, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Is this going to happen? I'll let this sit for a few more days, then I'll change it (BTW I am TAS Student, I just finally bothered to create an account). -- Mattrixed Talk 16:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and added information about the first superintendent in the History section. I'm not sure we need to explicitly state who the current superintendent is in the main article text as it's listed in the infobox. --BenjaminTsai Talk 06:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC)