Talk:Taiwan/Archive 1

Relinquished rights to all China
Please mention historical claims by ROC to be the only legitimate government of all China (including the mainland). When, if ever, did they renounce such claims?


 * sort of in 1991


 * "We do not dispute the fact that the P.R.C. controls mainland China." -- Lee Teng-hui (1991)
 * --Xiaopo's Talk 04:52, Dec 31, 2003 (UTC)


 * Note the phrase "the fact" (i.e., the statement ignores the ROC's claims, but acknowledges the "truth" of things). Only the National Assembly can change the national borders. --Jia ng


 * Jiang you are so biased. No one seriously would say Taiwan continues to claim to be the rightful ruler of all of China.  They can't change the constitution because China claims that that would be a declaration of independence and a reason for war.  A lot different than simply saying, well, the democratically elected legislature in Taiwan hasn't changed it yet, right?--160.39.194.93 03:57, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Without getting into any further dispute, please also note that National Assembly never annexed Taiwan into ROC. The Taiwanese members of National Assebmly of 1946 were not elected, but hand-picked by the KMT regime.Mababa 04:08, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Also include UN membership. Was ROC ever in the UN? Were they dropped in favor of PRC?


 * The Republic of China was in the UN from the latter's founding in 1946 until 1971, when they got kicked out and China's seat given to the PRC government. --Brion VIBBER


 * Incorrect. China was given a permanent seat at the UN on the Security Council.  Jiang Jieshi, the dictator of Taiwan that ruled through the KMT, angrily rejected regular membership in the UN and withdrew from it altogether (seeing himself as the rightful ruler of all of China).  Big difference eh?  Also a big cause of the current controversy.  If you consider that today, every year, Taiwan begs the free world to recognize it as a democratic state and admit it to the UN, you might be more hesitant to say that ROC under authoritarian rule has much relationship to "ROC (Taiwan)" today (Taiwan is part of their new name, check online).--160.39.194.93 03:57, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)you are wrong, check resolution 2758, it is not an admission, it is a restoration of China's rights, China's seat has always been there, and ROC was indeed kicked out.


 * Republic of China is still listed in the UN charter as a permenant security council member. Please check the artcles of the UN charter. ROC is still in the UN. Taiwan, which is not part of ROC but is ruled by the ROC in exile, has yet get any representitivity in the UN since 1945.Mababa 04:08, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmm, Mababa, you make some very good and very interesting points. If we keep insisting that we should go by constitutions and written documents, then we would have to say that the ROC on Taiwan does not rule Taiwan but mainland China, which would be a position neither a neutral political scientist, Taiwanese, or Chinese would be happy with!  The UN point is a good one as well.  Regardless of what the charter says, I don't think Taiwan has any good argument for being on the Security Council (though I do believe it should be admitted to the UN).  I suggest that we stay away from relying on constitutions/written documents as really having as much legal force as we might think it does as in a place like the US.--160.39.195.88 21:15, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Most importantly, describe current status. What other countries recognize ROC sovereignty over Taiwan? Ed Poor
 * ROC has official diplomatic relationships with and embassies in 27 countries, most of them in Central and South America, and Africa. ROC has semi-official dipomatic offices in many other countries, such as US and Canada, who do not recognize it. Mistikal 17:49, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

--

I separated ROC from Taiwan since there are somewhat distinct concepts. For example an article on the Republic of China would include the Beijing warlords, which wouldn't fit in an article on Taiwan.

Roadrunner added this to the bottom from History of China:

The identical text found at History of China Taku 18:27 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)

-- Please replace or add the Chinese term for "Republic of China" in Traditional Chinese.

See Talk:Taiwan (bottom of page Organizing ROC-Taiwan articles) for proposed reorganization of Taiwan/ROC articles. --Jiang 01:44 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

---

Too much politicizing of the issue regarding PRC vs RoC. Yes - RoC was the recognized "true china" until 1970s when the PRC was recognized by the UN. The page is a bit too ambigious.

---

The Seal
The seal should have less blue space: http://www.roc-taiwan-fr.com/policy/histoire/societe/images/14.jpg --Jiang 08:12, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * The 1953 revised law regarding the seal & flag (&#20013;&#33775;&#27665;&#22283;&#22283;&#24509;&#22283;&#26071;&#27861;) does not mention the space at all. And such is with the Girl scouts' symbol. However, The ROC navy medals (the 2nd photo) shows a little space. --Menchi 08:47, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Still, the navy medals don't show as much space as here. I don't think having this much space is common. Let's put up a conventional design... --Jiang 08:50, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Removed content
I removed the following. They seem too detailed for the intro paragraph:

"Since two different governments cannot claim sovereignty on the same lands, this became a thorny issue for foreign governments, who have to choose which Chinese government they recognize."

This would better belong in "foreign relations". I think it's already there. It's incorrect to say "two different governments cannot claim sovereignty on the same lands". You can't stop them! But even two countries with territorial disputes can both be recognized by most of the world (Korea?). It was the two Chinas preventing this from happening, not the world community not being able to recognize both.


 * That's flawed reasoning. You can't stop them but a country could not rationally recognize two governments over the same territory.  You could recognize them for different territories.  Today, only PRC prevents countries from recognizing both China and Taiwan.--160.39.195.88 17:30, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"With a few exceptions, most countries now recognize the People's Republic of China, which implies that Taiwan does not have embassies in those countries (but has some "representations")."

The second clause is simply redundant. It would be better to state that only 27 nations recognize the ROC. (It's more specific and shorter.)

"Official maps from the People's Republic of China show Taiwan as part of its territory." Not necessary to know in the intro. It is implied already. --Jiang 03:18, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

they can show whatever they want on their "official maps." the fact is, the communist took over the majority of china, not the whole 100%. their territory limits to mainland china, they never granted sovereignty over taiwan.

Did you know, by the way, that Mao had previously supported Taiwanese independence when it was under Japanese occupation? Not unification with China, independence. Anyways, agreed with the above about official maps. It's a Orwellian game that the Chinese play, and I would've thought that Wikipedia would stick with what is fact, but these articles need some big changes.--160.39.195.88 17:30, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Standard phonetic system
I am just curious about the phonetic system in ROC: which one is offically recognized? The Wade-Giles or Zhuyin? I noticed that Wade-Giles is used below the Chinese characters in the page. --ILovEJPPitoC 10:09, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * I think zhuyin is still taught in schools as the "phonetic" system. Tongyong Pinyin became the officially recognized romanization in 2002, but local governments are still given autonomy to choose their own system. WG is still most popular. the government went through other systems in the past, such as MPS II that never really got off the ground. Discussion of what romanization to put atop the table occurred at Talk:Taiwan back when the template was still there. --Jiang 21:00, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Like Jiang said, Zhuyin is what people in ROC have been learning. As of now, most adults may have seen, but cannot write in any romanization, Wade-Giles or Tongyong Pinyin, and more unlikely to know the old MPS II and the ancient Gwoyeu Romatzyh. --Menchi 01:04, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Since the Tongyong Pinyin is officially recognized, shall we change the WG below the Chinese characters into Tongyong Pinyin? (so do all that in pages related to ROC?) --ILovEJPPitoC 05:14, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Discussion to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)/archive2. --Menchi 06:22, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Both zhuyin and tongyong are official, though as mentioned, some local gov'ts (most notably, the KMT-controlled Taipei municipality) have overriden the order. I changed it to zhuyin and tongyong since they're official and the Wade-Giles form is rarely seen. --Xiaopo's Talk 04:48, Dec 31, 2003 (UTC)

I think the zhuyin should be left out of the table. The countries template only calls for the official name. Zhuyin is used for educational, not official purposes. Government publications are never in zhuyin, while TY is used for English publications like Who's who in Taiwan. --Jiang 05:58, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * Although it's used for educational purposes only, I believe it's one of the official phoneticizations of Guoyu in the ROC. I think I can find a source for this if you need it. --Xiaopo's Talk 06:49, Dec 31, 2003 (UTC)

See Talk:Taiwan (the zhuyin was taken out before). We only care about the official (as in official language official) version of the script. Transliterations only appear in practice (and are not part of the official template). Therefore, it is not logical to include zhuyin.

Is Tongyong really supposed to be written CamelCase style? (i.e. MinGuo instead of Minguo)? --Jiang 07:38, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * OK, agreed and removed. And Tongyong is Camel Case, see Ji Danni's site or the tongyong streetsigns in Taiwan. Or, for that matter, the region names on the post office's website. --Xiaopo's Talk 07:48, Dec 31, 2003 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, all the official Tongyong I came across are normal (non-CamelCase). It is not mentioned in the scheme I read. The most official placename guide I use is the Ministry of the Interior, which never uses space or CamelCase. Occasionally hyphen. --Menchi (Talk)ü| â 07:55, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * I guess it's just a new system and lacks consistency. Feel free to change it back, or add hyphens, as the Tongyong Pinyin article suggests. (BTW, geez, you edit really, really fast) --Xiaopo's Talk 08:11, Dec 31, 2003 (UTC)

Should the chinese characters be right to left or left to right. I think the new bills with little children has it left to right, while it's right to left elsewhere. --Jiang 07:52, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * Postage stamps are still right-to-left though, at least the ones my Taiwanese acquaintances use. As is your Legislative Yuan stationery. ;-) I don't think they have a clear standard, and leaving it left-to-right is fine.

Why is Wade-Giles included in the introduction? It's not official, and it's so rarely used that I've never seen Zhonghua Minguo written in Wade-Giles at all. It's not one of those phrases whose W-G romanization became popularized in the West, so it's probably as rare as the Yale romanization. So is it OK to delete it? --Xiaopo's Talk 20:47, Jan 1, 2004 (UTC)


 * It doesn't need to be official. Someone added "Chiang Tse-min" at Jiang Zemin and "Hu Chin-tao" at Hu Jintao and we've left it there. The CIA factbook incorrectly claims WG is official. I guess it doesn't hurt to keep it. We should, however, include the simplified version of the chracters (in the intro). --Jiang 01:41, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * Just back from Taiwan. Removed the section about phoentic spelling being chaotic.  All of

the signs I've seen where either Tongyong or Hanyu. Taipei uses Hanyu Pinyin with Camel Case.

--User:Roadrunner 2 Jan 2004

When/Where does "Tongyong" declared official? pektiong 01:36, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

National Motto
Aren't the three people's principles (&#19977;&#27665;&#20027;&#32681;) the National Motto, so to speak? --Xiaopo's Talk 04:48, Dec 31, 2003 (UTC)

confused
I am a little confused by the data of the Population in the table. "Population 1,300,000,000 Ranked 1st". How come? --Yacht 10:55, Mar 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * Fixed. Some ignorant dumb person confused this China with the other one. --Jiang 20:50, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Official Language
LEGALLY, Taiwan does not have an official language. The KMT just decided it without ever making it official wenzi 21:32, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually, Mandarin is taught in all schools and the Taiwanese dialect is reserved for the social elite. So technically, Mandarin is the official language and Taiwanese is a reserved dialect.


 * Almost correct. Both Mandarin AND Taiwanese dialects are legal for use in Taiwan.  Although schools teach spoken Mandarin, Taiwanse is often used in public speaches, television shows, radio, etc.  The written language is the same, but spoken dialect is both Mandarin AND Taiwanese.  Also, many mainlanders try and learn Taiwanese to make themselves seem more educated and priviledged.


 * Politicians who are waishengren or of waishengren descent also speak in Taiwanese during speeches (with of course heavy accents) in order to appeal to voters.

Constitutional amendments in 2004

 * "In a series of Constitutional amendments in 2004, a consensus position was reached in which it was stated that the free territory of the Republic of China consisted of Taiwan, and nearby islands."


 * Is there a source for this? Something as controversial as this should be newsworthy.


 * This was part of the package of amendments passed in August. Along with changing the formula for the legislative yuan, they also changed Articles 1-4.  I'm trying but failing to get the exact text of the amendments.  The package passed with only one or two no votes, and the PRC didn't object so the wording wasn't too bad.

Roadrunner 16:42, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In addition, they can be Constitutional amendments yet - at most, proposed constitutional amendments. --Jiang 07:44, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

-- Here is the closest thing I've found to a statement of what was in those amendments....

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2004/09/06/2003201871

The trouble with this statement is that its written by someone who is green and trying to spin the situation to his view of reality. Obviously a pan-blue supporter would interpret the amendments differently. I'm guessing that because the amendments passed the LY with the support of the KMT and PFP and that because the PRC hasn't attacked Taiwan, that the amendments aren't too bad.

Roadrunner 16:51, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I thought it was already accepted that the "free area of the Republic of China" consisted of Taiwan and other islands. This was how they defined who had the right to vote - residents of the "free area of the Republic of China". The rhetoric here still implies Taiwan is "free" while the mainland is not. This should be nothing special and no different from past amendements passed in the 1990s unless they specifically defined the "free area" as the Taiwan area. If not, then it's not really worth mentioning. --Jiang 21:42, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

it's the opposite. usually ones speaking mandarin are the more educated ones, thus the language is commonly used in taipei, the major city. in taipei, teh majority of the students cannot speak Taiwanese. the Taiwanese dialect is usually used by less educated people in the country side. however, people in the progressive party such as the current president, tend to speak taiwanese in public to emphisize their pride as taiwanese (at the same time, deny themselves as chinese)

Intro Section Cleanup
The intro blurn to this article is interesting and apparently accurate, but seems too long compared to other country articles. I plan to consolidate it and move the bluk elsewhere. --Twinxor 08:40, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Turns out I'm dumb and moved the summary sidebar to the top of the page, rather than the standard place by the TOC. I'd really like to see the flag "above the fold", though, so I still plan to overhaul the introduction. --Twinxor 08:44, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Did the big reorganization, but I was pretty tired, so go ahead and correct all my mistakes! --Twinxor 11:39, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Coat of Arm
Ahah!! I was talking to Jiang about the KMT flag and I noticed the coat of arm picture in the article highly resembled KMT's party symbol. Please see the difference in the link if anyone is interested. . I know that this might not be a general interest though. :)Mababa 07:29, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What the hell is brillion?
GDP (PPP) - Total (2002) - GDP/capita $406 brillion (22nd) $18,000 (48th)

Foreign Travel
As Taiwan does not have diplomatic relations with most countries, what is the position for its citizens to visit the USA, UK etc Do they require visas, are Taiwanese passports accepted?


 * I don't have a Taiwan passport but from what I've seen, holders of them use them in the US, Canada, and Mexico. I believe they're accepted in most countries in the world w/o diplomatic relations with the ROC. Travel to mainland China for ROC citizens requires the "Taiwan Compatriot Pass" issued by the PRC; the Hong Kong SAR government issues another travel pass (so the PRC does not accept the ROC passport). --Jiang 06:41, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I use ROC(Taiwan) passport. Visas are required for most countries, but the passport itself is accepted and is treated as an official for travellers from Taiwan. Visas are not required for some countries, Singapore is an example. PRC (and Hong Kong, which should be considered as part of PRC now) is an exception, of course. As Jiang said, "Taiwan Compatriot Pass" issued by PRC is required, while ROC passport is completely useless in PRC. The cover of ROC passport look like this. It should be noticed that a word "Taiwan" is printed. There was no such word on the cover of passports issued before Sep. 1, 2003. -- Chi-Juin Luo, 19 Jan 2005