Talk:Taiwanese Mandarin

Move?
I think this should be moved to Taiwanese Mandarin--Confuzion 08:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

台灣國語 (Táiwān Guóyŭ) ?
Does the term "台灣國語" (Táiwān Guóyŭ, appears in the first paragraph of the article) really exist? It seems that the Republic of China referred to Standard Mandarin as "國語" (Guóyŭ) (See National language), but not "台灣國語" (Táiwān Guóyŭ). The latter term is often interpreted as "台灣國　語" (State of Taiwan, language) or "台灣　國語" (Taiwan, national language), which are biases towards the supporters of Taiwan independence. Apart from that, is "Mandarin on Taiwan" a better title that "Taiwanese Mandarin"? Because "Taiwanese" is another dialect in the Chinese language. - 169.231.1.116 20:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Please don't read "guoyu" literally. People don't. "Guoyu" in this context is simply meant to be a name for "Mandarin". The literal meaning is not relevant. I don't see a "bias towards the supporters of Taiwan independence" because Taiwan independence proponents want Taiwanese, not Mandarin, to be the national language. And "Taiwanese" here is used as an adjective so it cannot refer to the dialect of Min Nan, but rather the geographical place name (of Taiwan). --Jiang 02:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Jiang. The term "Taiwan Madarin" was firstly used for academic research, and it refers to the language spoken in Taiwan. Just like we say "American English（美式英語）" or "Singapore Chinese（新加坡華語）", we often use the name of location to stand for it.


 * Do 臺式國語 and 臺腔國語 exist? Would they be more logical and neutral? &mdash; Instantnood 21:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Jiang is right - this is not a NPOV issue. The term is recognised in Taiwan by blues and greens alike.  Everyone on the island calls it 台灣國語, everyone knows what is meant by the term, so what's the problem?  The national language of the Republic of China is 國語, the language as it is spoken by many on the streets is 台灣國語. Of course, how you then use the term can be political, as a pan-blue supporter might mock Chen Shui-Bian for his 台灣國語 (feeling it to be country-bumpkinish) or a pan-green might lambast James Soong for not using 台灣國語 (feeling that the absence of 台灣國語 renders him aloof and removed from the 'man on the street').


 * By the way, I did a quick straw poll (alright, it was only four people) and no-one had heard the term 臺式國語 or 臺腔國語. Not conclusive I admit, but they were surprised that anyone would want to find another name for 台灣國語. In fact, when I asked one friend he thought I'd got the Mandarin wrong and said 'oh no, you mean 台灣國語'... :)


 * The Chinese term is clear, widely known and it should not be changed. The English terms 'Taiwan Mandarin' or 'Taiwanese Mandarin' seem the best and clearest translation.  I have seen 'Taiwan Mandarin' used in the English literature to refer to 台灣國語 but I think 'Taiwanese Mandarin' is just as accurate.  I will attempt to track down some references in the near future to back this up. Taiwantaffy 15:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much Taiwantaffy. Nevertheless, if we were to be speculative, it's not really that surprising for pro-independence people to start saying 台灣國語 meaning the Min Nan language, or specifically the Taiwanese dialect. :-) &mdash; Instantnood 16:41, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Right, I've found some (scholarly) references to back up my point above; 1, 2, 3, 4. They all refer to the phenomenon as Taiwan Mandarin. I'll be reading these in depth over the coming days and adding more points and references to the article. Also, the Chinese-language Wikipedia article entitled 臺灣國語 is quite clear that the term does not refer to any putative 'Republic of Taiwan' national language, plus it provides plenty of references for the term 台灣國語 being used in Chinese language literature. So I really feel there is no need to change the Chinese term used in the article.

Furthermore, I think there is a case for renaming the article Taiwan Mandarin as this is the term used in the literature. We could add a redirect from Taiwanese Mandarin to Taiwan Mandarin. This is in accordance with Wikipedia policy to use the most common or well-known name for any given phenomenon. What does everyone feel about this? Taiwantaffy 02:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * "Taiwanese Mandarin" is more grammatical. On google, it is 865 vs. 958. It is used here: --Jiang 08:57, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the vocabulary section is not very accurate. Lots of people of Taiwan refer bikes as zixinche or dangche. You can't tell if somebody is from China or from Taiwan just by the way they refer bikes. I think a better example would be the way harddrive is referred, since in Taiwan it is called a yingdie and in china it's called yingpang. BlueShirts 18:00, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

does anyone know when mandarin became the official language of the media? I remember there were a lot of movies and television dramas from the 60s or 70s that were in Taiwanese entirely. Was there a policy change in the late 70s BlueShirts 22:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Good question, I'll see what info I can dig up. •[[Image:Shavian-tot.png]][[Image:Shavian-ash.png]][[Image:Shavian-fee.png]][[Image:Shavian-eat.png]] U|T|E 01:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've had a quick look online and the only reference I can see towards a changing of attitudes in that period is the Presbyterian Church's assertion of the banning of romanized literature in 1975.  This could have coincided with a more general restriction on Taiwanese being broadcast, but that is not clear.  Plenty of other sites have vague statements like 'during KMT rule Taiwanese was suppressed', but there is not much about specific language policy during the KMT era. If I come across any other info I'll post it here. •[[Image:Shavian-tot.png]][[Image:Shavian-ash.png]][[Image:Shavian-fee.png]][[Image:Shavian-eat.png]] U|T|E 02:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah this is really weird. Some of the best early movies (60s) were in Taiwanese, with traditional Chinese subtitles of course. I think all too often we just hear blanket statements like the KMT banned the use of Taiwanese. I know it's banned in schools (along with all other dialects), but I'm not sure when the media ban started. BlueShirts 22:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
 * This article on Taiwanese movies is of interest. BlueShirts 03:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Google hits
Defining language usage preferences between the PRC and Taiwan can be a messy art form. The Google hits are meant to help answer the question: "How common is the term __ in the PRC vs. Taiwan?" It is not a particularly sophisticated form of statistical analysis. However, it is quick and easy, and it gets across the general idea. I decided to put in the statistics because of an earlier dispute about the word for bicycle (腳踏車 jiǎotàchē vs. 自行車 zìxíngchē). While zìxíngchē is used in both the PRC and Taiwan, jiǎotàchē is used less outside of Taiwan. This is because jiǎotàchē originated from the Taiwanese word: kha-ta̍h-chhia. A-cai 08:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

-No, it originated from Wu dialect speech cih dah tshu 腳踏車. 腳踏車 is still used in Shanghainese to mean 'bicycle'. Much of Modern Taiwanese Standard Mandarin comes from Shanghai/Jiangnan accent, not Min Nan accent. Bloodmerchant (talk) 08:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

POJ
I decided to use POJ for all Taiwanese terms on the Taiwanese Mandarin page. POJ seems to be the most popular way to represent Taiwanese (Min Nan) on the internet. There is even a Taiwanese version of Wikipedia that is written in POJ. Here is a conversion chart for those out there who may have learned another system.

A-cai 13:34, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Explanation for the removal of the reference to the term bacon
If nobody objects, I have taken out the reference to "培根" (péigēn) vs. "煙肉" (yānròu). A quick search on Google reveals that "培根" (péigēn) is actually used far more in the PRC than the term "煙肉" (yānròu). Here are the results: A-cai 03:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 培根 Google hits: .cn
 * 煙肉 Google hits: .cn

Reason why "in print" (1st column) characters are different from Taiwanese Han (2nd column)
In the chart of loan words from Taiwanese, why are characters "As seen in print" are different from corresponding "Taiwanese Han" (column 2)? Also, it may be appropriate to add a note that in some cases the Taiwanese Han characters are not standardized. Oniows 14:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Very good questions.
 * 1) Maybe "as seen in print" is confusing.  I will try to explain in greater detail here, and then we can decide how to word-smith the article.  If you were to read Chinese language newspapers and periodicals (as well as the Chinese subtitles to English language movies) in Taiwan on a regular basis (For example: The China Times or The Liberty Times), you are likely to notice the occasional use of a Taiwanese word.  It is estimated that less than 70% of the people in Taiwan speak Taiwanese.  Also, many Taiwanese speakers are not educated in Taiwanese as written with Chinese characters (台文, POJ: Tâi-bûn).  Therefore, many publications elect to choose Chinese characters whose Mandarin pronunciation approximates the sound of the Taiwanese word.  For example, the Chinese characters for the Taiwanese word tòng-bē-tiâu (can not bear something; compelled to do something) are 擋未住.  However, if you were to pronounce the characters in Mandarin, it would be dǎng wèi zhù (which is an awkward construct in Mandarin and does not really match the sound of the Taiwanese word).  However, if you say the characters 凍未條 in Mandarin really fast (Pinyin: dòng wèi tiáo), it sounds a little like the Taiwanese word.  There are advantages and disadvantages to this approach.  For one thing, 凍未條 makes no sense if you are trying to read the characters for meaning (凍: freeze 未: not yet 條: long narrow strip).  On the other hand, the very fact that the characters are non-sensical indicates to many Taiwanese that they should be read for the sound, and not the meaning.  If Taiwanese were a European language, we would probably use the word transliteration to describe this phenomenon.  Sometimes, the transliterations can be rather humerous as in the case of tòng-soán (當選: to win an election); the characters chosen to represent the Taiwanese sound, 凍蒜 (Pinyin: dòng suàn), mean "frozen garlic" when taken literally.
 * 2) Nearly all Chinese dialects struggle with this phenomenon.  This brings me to your second point.  There is a generally excepted way to depict most Taiwanese words with Chinese characters.  This is particularly the case for common compounds (such as 語言 POJ: gú-giân, Pinyin: yŭyán).  However, there is a lot of variation.  This is something that is talked about (or should be) in the Min Nan and Taiwanese pages.  I have primarily relied on two sources for column two:
 * 台灣話大詞典　(Tâi-ôan-ōe tōa-sû-tián), ISBN 9573240785
 * 台語-華語線頂辭典 (Tai-gi hôa-gí sòaⁿ-téng sû-tián)

In cases where multiple variations exist, I try to pick Chinese characters that tend to shed light on the etymological or phonetic origin of the word. For example, the Taiwanese word mài (don't) can be written in Chinese using either 莫 or 勿. I would tend to pick 莫 (Pinyin: mò) over 勿 (Pinyin: wù) because my gut tells me that 勿 was only adopted for use because its meaning matches the Taiwanese mài, whereas 莫 also appears to capture the original sound. A-cai 06:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Blurring between n and l ?
I removed the above line from the list of Taiwanese-influenced differences from Mandarin because it is innacurate or needs to be nuanced. Taiwanese language does make a distinction between the two phonemes n and l.
 * the distinction between n and l is blurred

Thus, if there is indeed a blurring between the two sounds in Taiwan (and I don't know if there is; no example of it was given), it cannot be attributed to the lack of a corresponding Taiwanese sound; it should be listed in another category (such as: "influence of Taiwanese cognates", "other influences", or "later phonological shifts", if it were the case).

By the way, it has been noted elsewhere that such blurring is occurring in Cantonese, especially among younger speakers. But that is a Cantonese phenomenon. --HYC 03:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * HYC is correct in pointing out that the Taiwanese language contains both l and n. It is also true that a portion of Taiwanese speakers of Mandarin have difficulty distinguishing between l and n.  This usually stems from a lack of sufficient training in Standard Mandarin.  Here is an illustration of the problem:

A-cai 10:08, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * For the above two words, n and l are swapped when moving from Taiwanese to Mandarin. This phenominon can occassionally lead to a "hybrid" Taiwanese-Mandarin pronunciation such as "lán" for south!


 * In Mandarin dialects:

In some (especially southern) areas people do not distinguish between initial l- /l/ and n- /n/ sounds, and may merge them in some or all words, to either l- or n-. --Skyfiler 18:52, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

basilect vs. acrolect
I have taken a closer look at the Taiwanese influenced section. After reading the definitions for basilect and acrolect, I am not sure that this section accurately captures the situation in Taiwan. Bear in mind that my comments are not from the point of view of an expert in linguistics. A-cai 14:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) It seems to me that the part that talks about pronunciation differences between basilect and acrolect could better be described as the difference between a speaker of Standard Mandarin (which also de-emphasizes the retroflex "r" ending) and a native speaker of Min Nan who speaks Mandarin with a Min Nan accent.  I will use two of Taiwan's most well known politicians to illustrate my meaning.  Ma Ying-jeou is the current mayor of Taipei.  His family came to Taiwan after 1949, he is not a fluent Min Nan speaker.  Chen Shui-bian is the president of Taiwan.  His ancestors moved to Taiwan from Fujian Province several hundred years ago.  Chen is a native Min Nan speaker.  Obviously, both of these men give frequent speeches in Mandarin.  According to the description in the article, neither of the two should ever pronounce "fei" as "hui" in a formal speech.  This is always true for Mayor Ma, but not often true for President Chen.  The reason is not because President Chen  forgets that he should use the acrolectal form when giving a formal speech.  The man has a Min Nan accent!
 * 2) The issue of zh-z, sh-s etc. is not confined to Taiwanese Mandarin.  I would call this a feature of Mandarin as spoken in many parts of Southern China.  Again, Mayor Ma's parents are from Hunan, but he often says "zeli" rather than "zheli" (here 這裡), even in formal settings (same is true for Lien Chan).  On the other hand, I don't often hear him saying "suo" instead of "shuo" (speak 說).  Of course, this is my subjective opinion.  A speaker with a thick Beijing accent might mistake Mayor Ma's "sh" for an "s" for all I know.
 * I am writing this on the discussion page because the section in question was clearly written by a linguistics major. However, I do think my comments should be taken into consideration.  Perhaps some of my observations could be worked into the wording.


 * on the same theme, this link brief comparison of the accents of Chen Shui-bian (Taiwanese peasant background), Soong Chu-yu (Hunan mainlander background), and Lien Chan (Taiwanese aristocrat background): --Jiang 05:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Acrolectal Taiwanese Mandarin is more closer to Jiangnan/Shanghai accent of Mandarin, since most educators in Taiwan during the 1950's-1970's came from the Jiangnan region and passed on their Jiangzhe accent to Taiwanese. Even today, Wu Chinese is spoken by a small minority in Taiwan, but it's rapidly becoming extinct. Bloodmerchant (talk) 08:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Loan words from Japanese
I'm not sure that some of the recent additions to the loan words are legitimate. I would say that 'Odobai' and 'Biru' are used almost exclusively in Holo (Taiwanese) and that any use in a Mandarin sentence would fall under code-switching rather than genuine loan words. Thus in my opinion they are loan words from Japanese into Taiwanese, not into Mandarin and so don't belong in this article. Perhaps another article could be created for loan words into Taiwanese? • U|T|E 05:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * In the end, I think it really comes down to where you draw the line between loan words and code-switching, the boundary is often quite fuzzy. As a student I've personally heard various Japanese terms from Holo slang either "Mandarinized" into normal Mandarin speech (sometimes to the point where they're pronounced using Mandarin, i.e. 霸咖/霸咖鴨摟, 頭拉褲), or could be considered in the same category as other Holo loanwords, with the exception that they were in turn loaned from Japanese. (As a side note it's taking me all of my self-restraint not to stick 阿魯巴 under English loanwords.) -Loren 05:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Further examples of transliteration to Mandarin (note that other character variations may exist):
 * * Obdobai -> 歐都拜
 * * Baka -> 霸咖
 * * Obasan -> 歐霸桑
 * * Odosan -> 歐豆桑
 * -Loren 06:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

What about word from classical chinese that loaned to japanese and then loan back? Notably 達人, since this term is always use in Classical Chinese prior to 20th century. Here is some references in Chinese:

達人

1.通達事理的人. 《左傳·昭公七年》：“聖人有明德者，若不當世，其后必有達人. ” 孔穎達 疏：“謂知能通達之人. ” 晉 葛洪 《抱朴子·行品》：“順通塞而一情，任性命而不滯者，達人也. ” 明 徐渭 《自浦城進延平》詩：“循理稱達人，險難亦何慼. ” 清 葉廷琯 《鷗陂漁話·莪州公詩》：“造物忌陰謀，達人務遠職. ”

2.豁達豪放的人. 《列子·楊朱》：“ 衛 端木叔 者， 子貢 之世也. 藉其先貲，家累萬金，不治世故，放意所好…… 段干生 聞之曰：‘ 端木叔 達人也，德過其祖矣. ’” 漢 賈誼 《鵩鳥賦》：“小智自私兮，賤彼貴我；達人大觀兮，物無不可. ” 金 孟宗獻 《張仲山枝巢》詩：“達人孤高與世踈，百年直寄猶須臾. ”

3.顯貴的人. 唐 楊炯 《＜王勃集＞序》：“ 晉 室南遷，家聲布於 淮 海； 宋 臣北徙，門德勝於 河 汾. 宏材繼出，達人間峙. ” 清 侯方域 《蹇千裡傳》：“ 千裡 凡駑，其先世亦無達人，而能自緣飾，以詩賦顯，致位卿相，嗚呼，亦異矣！”

4.指 韃靼. 達，通“ 韃 ”. 明 余繼登 《典故紀聞》卷十一：“ 正統 初，吏部主事 李賢 言：‘竊見京師 達 人不下萬餘，較之畿民，三分之一. ’”  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.211.246.32 (talk) 03:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Explanation
Jiang, please explain what's wrong with my edits?--Bonafide.hustla 06:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) what is your reason for removing "Taiwan Huayu"?
 * 2) Mandarin links to a disambiguation page. The proper article is Mandarin (linguistics).
 * 3) "is almost identical" --> "somewhat differs": This edit is not factually accurate. The standards are indeed almost identical. Whether people follow the standards is another issue, independent of this statement.
 * 4) "However, Mandarin as spoken informally in Taiwan" --> "Mandarin spoken in Taiwan": The distinction needs to be made between documentary narrator-speak, news anchor-speak, and noodle-shop owner speak. There are clearly differences between formal and informal levels of Mandarin
 * 5) "Also Taiwan does not use the pin-yin system and write in traditional characters as opposed to the PRC.": What does this have to do with Mandarin, which is a spoken language? Taiwan does use the Hanyu Pinyin system, in street signs such as those in Taipei, and in Chinese language schools geared towards non-locals.
 * 6) "Mainlanders" --> "post-1949 immigrants": used in context, the term "mainlanders" is unambiguous in referring to waishengren. --Jiang 08:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

loan words from English?
I was considering adding a section that deals with English proper nouns. Common examples include:

I can't decide if it's overkill or worth the effort. Opinions? -- A-cai (talk) 13:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you could start a new article called something like List of proper names translated differently between Taiwanese Mandarin and Mainland Mandarin. That particular one could be too long, though, and I don't know if it's appropriate or not. The idea is nevertheless really good. 石川 (talk) 15:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I would take part in adding words to this list, if someone becomes interested again. Noteably: 巴拉克·奥巴马 Bālākè Àobāmǎ (mainland), in Taiwan the new US President's last name is written and pronounced as 歐巴馬 Ōubāmǎ. Even Chinese Wikipedia uses both, very confusing. Hopefully, with growing cross-straight ties there will be more communication and hopefully less such cases. --Anatoli (talk) 23:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Transcription of names are not loanwords. Having multiple transcriptions of a name is not something special. There are multiple ways to write "Mao Zedong" in English, too. --Voidvector (talk) 04:48, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It is special enough for a small section or a paragraph describing possibilities of different modern standard transcriptions of the same name in mainland China and Taiwan. This feature also makes 2 versions of Mandarin a little different. For learners it may be of interest to know some major names of people, countries or cities. A comprehensive list is not worth the effort, of course. --Anatoli (talk) 12:34, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I would support a separate section noting such phenomenon, because names are generally not considered loanwords. Section can mention other aspects as well, such as movie titles (e.g. some are translated literally, some are given a whole new name). --Voidvector (talk) 22:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

More pronunciation differences
I really think there ought to be more emphasis on the differences in pronunciation. It should contain not just differences of certain words, and differences where it is close to Min-nan accent, but more subtle and general ones. For instance, according to the Standard Mandarin article, there is this phoneme /ɤ/, but it is often realized as /ə/ from my experience.

Another striking difference is the final /ɤŋ/: when preceded by "b, p, m, f", it is almost never pronounced that way, but instead as /ɔŋ/ or /oŋ/. The same goes for /uɤŋ/ ([ʊŋ] with initials) being pronounced /uɔŋ/ or /uoŋ/ ([ɔŋ] or [oŋ] with initials).

Also, after certain vowels like /i/ or /ə/, /n/ and /ŋ/ are identical, both in realization and in perception. This is particularly evident in cases where people writing online often mistype 因該 when it should be 應該. Relatively fewer people even have trouble distinguishing betwenn /an/ and /ɑŋ/.

Of course, these are not linguistic observations, and I don't know if these phenomenons are really "differences", but in either case it would be worthwhile to include the information in either this article or Standard Mandarin.

石川 (talk) 15:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Dialect or Accent
I found that this article refers to Mandarin spoken in Taiwan which in Chinese is only 國語. Because it's brought from mainland China by the KMT, and before that Taiwanese are used to speak Taiwanese and then are forced to speak Chinese only, they had a strong accent, which is called 台灣國語. So this title Taiwan Mandarin seems to be a translation of 台灣國語, which only means the accent of the RC version of Mandarin. Therefore there are also words different to PRC Mandarin. A close look to the Chinese article of 台灣國語 shows in the first few sentences, that it is called an accent. (I mean the article zh:台灣國語, which is recently linked with another article: zh:中華民國國語文) What I suggest now is, to rename this article, because 台灣國語 means only the accent of 中華民國國語文. This article is the same with the zh.wiki's 中華民國國語文. And I would volunteer to write a new article with some others about the accent "Taiwanese Mandarin". &#24555;&#27138;&#40845; 15:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I just found, that zh:國語 (中華民國) redirecs to 中華民國國語文. &#24555;&#27138;&#40845; 15:13, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * If there is no appeal, I'm gonna move this article to Guoyu (Republic China), link that on Guoyu and write a stub on Taiwanese Mandarin at first. &#24555;&#27138;&#40845; 03:48, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Not a good idea, at the first glance. So Chinese has only one article and a redirect? "Taiwanese Mandarin" is a more common term in English. Accents and other features can be described in one article. Unlike "Putonghua", "Guoyu" is hardly used in English. Anatoli (talk) 04:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I can understand, if at first there is no need for an article for a accent, but to mix 國語 with 台灣國語 is definetely wrong. This article describes 國語, while 台灣國語 is that accent. So 台灣國語 is Taiwan Mandarin, and 國語 is Guoyu (Republic China). &#24555;&#27138;&#40845; 07:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Guoyu (國語) is addressed in Standard Mandarin. This article is about the dialect of Taiwanese Mandarin: the Mandarin with Taiwanese usage and accent (台灣式的國語或普通話).--pyl (talk) 12:52, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, we agree that 國語 is Mandarin. But wen you talk about an dialect (方言), then you say that 台語/民南話, 四川話 or 香港話 are some examples. But no one in Taiwan or Mainland would say, that 台灣國語 is an accent. It is an dialect resulting from mother tongues of 民南話 start to learn 國語. Just the same was when a Italian starts to speak English for the first time. &#24555;&#27138;&#40845; 14:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No.


 * accent = 腔調 or 口音
 * dialect = 方言


 * I think you got the Chinese translations wrong.


 * 台語/閩南話, 四川話 or 香港話 are languages (語言), or to other people, dialects (方言).


 * Taiwanese Mandarin (台灣式的國語) is a dialect (方言) of Standard Mandarin (國語).


 * The analogy between Italian and English is unsound, as Min Nan Chinese and Mandarin Chinese share the same set of written characters and the grammar (文法) is extremely similar. The main difference is the pronunciation of the characters. However, Italian and English don't share the same alphabets and they have very different grammar.


 * And there is no such thing as "民南話". It is a made up term and it doesn't mean anything. The correct term is "閩南話", meaning the language of Southern Min (Fujian).--pyl (talk) 06:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I had one typo. I'm aware that a dialect is 方言. I corrected it above.
 * Then just take an example on German and Flamish. Grammar and words are very similar, the point is the pronunciation. When I said an Italian learning English I also mean, that his pronunciation will probably not proper at the benginning (next to grammar and vocs).
 * Why do you think 台灣國語 is a dialect? If you ever have been to Taiwan and ask anybody what 台灣國語 is, then everybody will tell you, it's an accent. If you even say to someone, that he speaks 台灣國語, then he might be angry and say, that his 中文 or 國語 is very proper instead.
 * Another thing is just the zh.wiki article zh:台灣國語. I found this: 台灣國語是在台灣流行的一個戲謔名詞，指帶有強烈閩南語口音及用法的現代標準漢語.  It just says: 台灣國語 is a modern joke name and means a strong accent of 閩南語 while speaking 現代標準漢語. &#24555;&#27138;&#40845; 10:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I suspect that the term "Taiwanese Mandarin" will be taken by the average native English speaker generally to mean the various strains of Mandarin that are used by people living in Taiwan. I think that this accurately describes the intent of the English article.  Similarly, we have articles for American English and British English.  The debate about whether to call anything a language, dialect or accent is frought with difficulties because these are imprecise terms (see: A language is a dialect with an army and navy).  -- A-cai (talk) 12:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

(Outdent for easier reading)

I am aware of the Taiwanese Mandarin usage. Mandarin and Taiwanese are my native languages (you might already be aware of that from my user page).

Yes, the term "Taiwanese Mandarin" can be a derogatory term and I had this conversation with Readin earlier about this when she wanted to put "Taiwanese Mandarin" as the official language of the Republic of China. The official language of the ROC is Standard Mandarin. I wouldn't want to be described as a person who speaks Taiwanese Mandarin myself. There is nothing wrong with having a Taiwanese accent when Mandarin is spoken, but the derogatory meaning of the term is not flattering.

Taiwanese Mandarin is more than just a localised accent. There is no doubt that the Taiwanese accent is different from Beijing or Shanghai accent when Mandarin is spoken. But Taiwanese Mandarin also has localised usages which are not part of the mainland usage. The examples are "計程車", "龜毛" or "鬱卒". By having localised accent and usuage from Standard Mandarin, it makes Taiwanese Mandarin a dialect of Mandarin.

I agree with A-cai. That's exactly what "Taiwanese Mandarin" means in this article. Using your words, it means the Taiwan localised version (地方語言 "方言") of the many strains of Mandarin. This article is not about the ROC regulated version of Standard Mandarin, as that is covered in the Standard Mandarin article itself.--pyl (talk) 13:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That is the reason, why I'm a bit astonished. I also speak with that accent and whenever I heard someone being told, that she/he speaks 台灣國語, it was always kind of a blaming or a joke. Whenever I asked other Taiwanese or Mainlanders about 台灣國語, they say it is an accent. Even zh.wiki says that.
 * Your point about those words, which are only used in Taiwan, is right. But I think you can compare that with e.g. Chinglish, Singlish, Denglisch etc. They also have little differences in grammar and usage of words. That doesn't make them an dialect yet.
 * My words are, that this article should describe an accent, ROC regulated version of Standard Mandarin is already described in Standard Mandarin&#24555;&#27138;&#40845; 13:58, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Chinglish, Singlish, Denglisch are considered to be dialects of the English language, just like Taiwanese Mandarin is a dialect of the Mandarin Chinese language.


 * The thing is, terms like "龜毛" or "鬱卒" are not part of ROC regulated version of Standard Mandarin. You won't see them in textbooks. They are informal terms only used in Taiwan as part of Taiwanese Mandarin. So if you want to change this article to do what you are proposing, then we have to remove all those informal terms that are not part of Standard Mandarin.


 * If you like, you can add the ROC regulated Standard Madarin terms like "計程車" (出租車 for PRC) or "雷射" (激光 for PRC) in a separate section of the Standard Mandarin article, as these are proper Standard Mandarin terms used by the ROC government.--pyl (talk) 14:14, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, if you think it is appropraite, we can call Taiwanese Mandarin a Creole of Standard Mandarin. Check Singlish article. --pyl (talk) 14:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the term "variant" or "strain" would be more appropriate. The term "creole" may confuse some readers.  Also, recognize that non-standard use of any language may be subject to ridicule by users of the "standard language."  In the United States, speakers of Southern American English are often victims of a stereotype that associates that dialect with rednecks.  -- A-cai (talk) 14:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Just like in Taiwan, the speakers of Taiwanese Mandarin are often considered to be rednecks too.
 * I think "variant" or "strait" is fine too.--pyl (talk) 14:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No, you misunderstand me. As they are part of it, they have to be listed as in those other three articles. Chinglish etc. are no accents. If you search through those articles, then you'll find it's nowhere written that they are accents. About creole I'm not sure yet. I would like to check that first. Variant and strain would indicate, that it is a language.
 * What I propose is, that we just change the introduction, the interpretation of it. And call it an accent or maybe an creole. Just as zh.wiki does. &#24555;&#27138;&#40845; —Preceding undated comment added 15:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC).


 * The terms "variant," "variety," "dialect" and "strain" do not imply anything about whether "Taiwanese Mandarin" and Standard Mandarin are mutually intelligible. African American Vernacular English is described appropriately as a variety of American English.  In general, African American Vernacular English (with the exception of its most extreme forms) can be understood by a speaker of Standard American English.  Similarly, California English is described as a "dialect" of the English language.  Again, California English can be easily understood by a speaker of British English, despite diferences of vocabulary and pronunciation.  In general, the term "accent" refers to variations within the same mutually intelligible language ("accent" usually only describes features of pronunciation.  It is not generally used to describe vocabulary diferences).  -- A-cai (talk) 16:22, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The example of African American Vernacular English is very striking. I would suggest the term variety, because even if dialect doesn't imply that Taiwanese Mandarin and Standard Mandarin are mutually intelligle, e.g. Taiwanese is also described as an accent, but to be categorized different than Taiwanese Mandarin. I see know, that the Chinese word for accent is misleading in this categorisation and not suitable, different to its Chinese categorisation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuaile Long (talk • contribs) 16:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There's definitely some confusion in this article between the accented Mandarin that's called 台灣國語 and Mandarin used in Taiwan. Personally, the literal English translation Taiwanese Mandarin sound like it refers to the accent instead of usage of Standard Mandarin in Taiwan, but that's up for debate.  On the other hand, the article clearly mixes these two things and it should be distinguished.  No one in Taiwan would call 台灣國語 a dialect, everyone knows it's an incorrect pronunciation of Mandarin.  (AFAIK, Taiwanese is not an accent (口音), it's a dialect (方言), there's no confusion to Chinese people.)  This distinction should be made, and for those that are unconvinced, they should just go ask a Taiwanese person. --Kenny Chang  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.41.47 (talk) 01:00, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

ZH-TW
I do not like the target of this re-direct, so I have raised this issue at Redirects for Discussion (2010 April 27). 华钢琴49 (TALK) 23:06, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's commonly used here on Wikipedia, and most of the time when the Taiwanese language (Mandarin) is used it's Zh-Tw, not Cn-Tw, or Tw-Tw or something, Zh is the standard for Mandarin, and Tw is the variant, the same distinction between Hong-Kong Mandarin and Hong-Kong normal Chinese (Cantonese).
 * Sincerely, --Namlong618 (talk) 09:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

misin
oate/chubao/xue>xie +lots ofrepititn i/art.--pl.note:i&#39;v&#91;&#91;RSI&#93;&#93;&gt;typin=v.v.hard4me!&gt;contactme thruMSNpl.if unclear&#91;sven70=alias (talk) 12:38, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

same words different meaning
公共汽車 I think in Taiwan this is a bus, and mainland this is a government official's vehicle. If anyone wants to confirm this and put it up? :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.181.41 (talk) 02:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've never heard anyone call a bus that before, ever. Only 公車.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.111.179.5 (talk) 05:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

公共汽車is the official way to describe "bus" in Taiwan, for example, 公共汽車管理處, 公共汽車客運業管理辦法. Cervantes80 (talk) 22:37, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

"kawaii"/"可愛"
Who wrote that "可愛" is from the Japanese "kawaii"? I was initially merely surprised, but then I notice that whoever added it hadn't filled in the column for the Mainland preferred usage, and also had given the pinyin as "ke4 ai" even though it's definitely "ke3 ai4". Course I've been out-of-country for many years now, and maybe all you Taiwanese younglings are pronouncing it that way these days -- if so, do tell. Otherwise, I suspect that this is not an accurate addition. If there is radio silence after a week, I will go ahead and delete it. --14 February 2011


 * The term "可愛" can be found in literature back in the Han dynasty. It is definitely not originated from Japanese. Cervantes80 (talk) 22:33, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

落跑
I don't think that 落跑 is derived from Taiwanese. It would be like from other Chinese dialect. Especially 跑 is very rarely used in Taiwanese. On the Internet we can find many folk etymologies about Taiwanese terms. We should be careful about that.luuva (talk) 18:34, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

/ɻ/
Taiwanese people pronounce /z/ for /ɻ/ ? Fête (talk) 16:05, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Misleading Title
Taiwanese Mandarin is different than Guoyu. Taiwanese Mandarin is inflected with Hokkien accents while Guoyu is neutral sounding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.141 (talk) 14:56, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Interwiki problem
Currently on Wikidata, this article links to zh:中華民國國語 on the Chinese Wikipedia. However, on the Chinese Wikipedia there are multiple articles spread around various similar but distinct topics, namely zh:臺灣國語 (lit. "Taiwan national language") and zh:台灣華語 (lit. "Taiwan Mandarin"). Is the current interwiki link to zh:中華民國國語 (lit. "Republic of China national language") desirable? -- benlisquare T•C•E 04:05, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * We have to go by the WP:COMMONNAME, whenever I use the other stuff exists argument I either run across a less than capable person who simply "doesn't care" or a wall of people claiming that different wiki's have different guidelines, despite the fact that the official page claims that if it's reasonable should be considered, but I've used "the other wiki" argument and most people would refer to it as "irrelevant" so I wonder if any of this might help.
 * Sincerely, --Namlong618 (talk) 09:15, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
 * zh:臺灣國語 is not "Taiwan national language". 臺灣國語 is abbreviation of "臺灣式中華民國國語", which means "ROC national language with Taiwanese accent".--Liaon98 (talk) 19:59, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Confusion
"the syllable written as pinyin: eng before b, f, m, p and w is pronounced as [ʊŋ] in all tones."

You mean "after" not "before", don't you? --2.245.67.97 (talk) 16:43, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Script
Non-phonetic Chinese writing systems (e.g. traditional versus simplified) are independent of dialect. The fact that Taiwan uses traditional characters is independent of their speaking Taiwanese Mandarin--the former is a political choice while the latter is more an evolution of Standard Mandarin as was spoken in China's Republican era. In my opinion, the "Script" section in the differences section and any other references where the Taiwanese Mandarin and traditional characters appear to be related should be removed. Mingjai (talk) 21:29, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Taiwanese-influenced pronunciation
I deleted the entries that said qi > ki and chi > tu. That's nonsense. Chi might become cu for a person with a really heavy accent, but never tu. Added a [citation needed] note on "ng before b, f, m, p and w is pronounced as [ʊŋ] in all tones", although the vowel isn't [ʊ], but closer to [o], even more open. Don't have any references for that one right now though. The overall lack of citations in this section is disturbing. Goderich (talk) 11:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Taiwan Mandarin against Taiwanese Mandarin
As suggested by two of my friends as linguistics scholars and considering semantics difference in the pair, I think we should decide whether to change the name of the entry, content as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asvaghosa (talk • contribs) 14:46, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi Asvaghosa, claims of people from real-life agree with you is not a good enough reason on Wikipedia, you need sources. Also your last edit reverted a blind search-replace that introduced factual errors (changing two book titles) and broke an image. Please find and add references to back this suggestion and get WP:Consensus before such changes. You may like to ask at WikiProject Taiwan for opinions. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 15:00, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Good points; I'll take that and be back later--Asvaghosa (talk) 15:02, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

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British spelling?
, was there any British spelling in this article before you made this change? Note that MOS:RETAIN says that "an article should not be edited... simply to switch from one variety of English to another." Phlar (talk) 20:39, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Standard Taiwanese Mandarin
Standard Taiwanese Mandarin and Putonghua may be in parallel, but I wouldn't say Standard Taiwanese Mandarin is derived from or secondary to Putonghua! ha ha ha! I believe it is more likely that China has a standard form of Mandarin and Taiwan has a standard form of Mandarin which are pretty similar. That's all. No need to bring in an extra step there. No disrespect to anyone is intended, but this does need to be clarified. Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:11, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Differing usage or preference - college
would the word for college fit into this section? Guoyu usually use 大學 to refer to the step after secondary education while Putonghua speakers use 本科 (Guoyu speaker raised in the US) 2601:7C0:C500:8610:2C4D:B45F:3A7:9062 (talk) 18:13, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Oba(a)san
I read:
 * 歐巴桑 ōubāsāng, 'elderly woman', from おばさん obasan

This cites a source that's unavailable to me. And unfortunately I don't know Chinese. But I wonder: is this right? Obasan means "aunt" (or a somehow aunt-like person), not "elderly woman"; the word for "grandmother" (or a somehow grandmother-like person) is おばあさん obāsan. -- Hoary (talk) 13:03, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello, ? -- Hoary (talk) 21:33, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi! I rechecked the source and this does appear to be correct. I don't know Japanese, though, so I searched around, and it looks like other sources similarly give おばさん as the etymology, not おばあさん, even though that does make more sense (e.g. this oped). "Auntie" is a frequently used, generic form of address in various Chinese languages for women older than you, which may be how it evolved to mean just "older woman" in general. Both Wiktionary entries give 歐巴桑 as a descendant, though, so something has gotten mixed up along the line. It's entirely possible the authors of these sources similarly mixed up the two words if they didn't know Japanese well. I'll try to look for an etymological dictionary source to see what's up. Thanks for pointing this out! WhinyTheYounger (WtY) (talk, contribs)  21:58, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Fangyan
The first paragraph of terms and definitions translates fāngyán (方言) as dialect. This is confusing especially when the opening sentence refers to Chinese as a group of languages. It then mentions that these languages are "extremely divergent" and mutually unintelligible.

I suggest translating fāngyán as topolect or regionalect and avoiding the use of dialect to refer to the group of languages considered to be Chinese. This would ensure that there is then no ambiguity in distinguishing different dialects of Mandarin through the body of the article. Davidreid (talk) 02:06, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * (Disclaimer: I don't own this article despite having brought this to GA status last week. Others are always free to disagree.) I felt that given just how widespread the use of 方言 is in Chinese (including in some of the sources cited in this article), even if it may be inaccurate, it was worth mentioning. That's also why I follow that sentence with Accordingly, Western linguists tend to treat them as separate languages, likening their relationship to that of English and Dutch, for example (both being West Germanic languages). before continuing to adopt that standard for the rest of the article. I just added a bit of text to that quote to try to further clarify (Western linguists tend to treat them as separate languages rather than dialects of the same language...) WhinyTheYounger (WtY) (talk, contribs)  22:14, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Lead wording on indigeneity
Pinging — I believed I had revised the original wording to address your objection, which as I understand it is over the implication that Hakka and Hokkien are indigenous. Mandarin is not the indigenous language of Taiwan. Taiwanese indigenous peoples speak unrelated Austronesian languages., the previous wording, is accurate and avoids implying Hakka and Hokkien are indigenous. The original alteration that I reverted, made by, was related to the timing of Hakka and Hokkien immigration, which is a separate issue (and which I'm realizing I was mistaken in reverting, because my interpretation was based on a typo, my bad). Given that, I don't think it's particularly important to change at this point, though strictly speaking "Mandarin was not prevalently spoken" and "Mandarin is not indigenous" are two separate claims. I'd recommend it be reworded to Mandarin was not a prevalent spoken language in Taiwan before the mid-20th century.. WhinyTheYounger ※ Talk 19:00, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I endorse the new change of “Mandarin was not a prevalent spoken language” instead of previous wording by saying it’s not an indigenous language, which makes more sense than defining which is native. Of course Mandarin is not “indigenous”, neither is Hokkien and Hakka, but the previous phrase made the sentence sound like Mandarin is the only one not being“indigenous”. I realise you made a change in the ordering of the sentences, but which does not resolve the confusion and people may still be misunderstanding in the definition of “indigenous languages” over the context of the sentences.

About the early immigrants in which time point to start, I think it should add more references to support the claims, either stating from 16th century or 17 century, should be given by the reliable sources. I would help to improve that by finding more supportive sources, otherwise I would prefer to omit the part about when the early Chinese settlers came, or just delete it from the article. LVTW2 (talk) 19:13, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Renamed the article to reflect the fact that it was spoken in mainland China during the republican era
- 四条河原町 (talk) 20:59, 5 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Reverted. You clearly have not read the article, which is not about republican era mainland China. —Kusma (talk) 21:11, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * If the article itself refers to Zhonghua Minguo Guoyu in the first paragraph and in the info box, it is only appropriate to account for the fact that it was used in MLC and how the dialect evolved there. You cannot just overlook the evolution of Guoyu there. 四条河原町 (talk) 21:40, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Also stop making assumptions about whether one has read the article or not; the article is inadequate for failing to account for Guoyu's history in the mainland. 四条河原町 (talk) 21:41, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Indeed the article is not about historical Guoyu on the mainland, but about modern Guoyu in Taiwan and things like how it is influenced by 台語 and Japanese. There are other things that are called "中華民國國語", but they are not covered by this article, so "Guoyu (Republic of China)" would be a misleading title. It could be a title for a separate article about Guoyu in republican-era mainland China. —Kusma (talk) 21:49, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the elaboration. 四条河原町 (talk) 17:19, 6 February 2024 (UTC)