Talk:Taiwanese people/Archive 3

That truly and deplorably ugly "disputed neutrality" tag!
Hey can we get rid of that cursed tag?! It is hideous. This article is a work in progress, and we are all working to make it NPOV. Let's have faith in each other's good faith..  Get rid of the term "ethnic groups" in the lede if it makes it more digestible. As for other sections... Their Day Will Come! Judgment Draweth Nigh! Ling.Nut 03:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Must make a concrete, specific, point-by-point case for NPOV tag
Please note that the act of inserting the NPOV tag itself is NPOV. It is an assertion of a POV.

This is only acceptable if editors take the time to raise specific points which can be addressed. This is perfectly acceptable; compromises can be worked out here on Talk. I will remove the NPOV tag unless someone takes the time to raise specific points which can be addressed in a constructive manner. Ling.Nut 15:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm this article has improved a lot! There are a lot of references (which is good), but I think there should be more pictures added for this article to meet the GA criteria.--Jerrypp772000 00:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Shhhhhh!
Shhh! Don't tell anybody, but this page has become quite stable.Maowang 07:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * At the top of the page it say "the people governed by the Republic of China," but I think that's not what this article's about. Taiwanese people aren't always governed by the ROC. I think it should say something like "the people of Taiwan." Feel free to change it back if anyone thinks otherwise.-- Jerry 16:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I think for a while someone was having a big problem with it, so to make nice it was in the prior form. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.140.7.29 (talk) 09:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The early Fujian and Hakka peoples
I totally acknowledge the mixing between Hoklo, Hakka, and pingpu peoples. I am also aware that Hoklo came from two cities Zhangzhou and Quanzhou. I also believe some single Chinese came from Chaozhou to Taiwan and mixed with others, because there is a city in Pingtung County that has the same name. Teochiu and Hoklo are very similar. I bring this up because I know many Taiwanese who claim to have an ancestor from Guangdong, and that ancestor is not a Hakka. I believe that it is highly possible that any Teochiu rapidly assimilated with Hoklo speakers. Does anyone know?

User:Dlc_73 13:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Definitions of Taiwanese
Taiwanese in Korea number 20,000? They are not Taiwanese. ( 90 percent of them are from shandong province they settled in Korean peninsula during 1950 Korean War). It was during 1980 President Chun Du Hwan era that majority of " Oversease" chinese began to adopt Taiwanese passport. ( 80 percent of them migrated to USA or to Taiwan). The actual population number is less then 20,000. Actual figure is 5-10 thousand the most. Plus they are not Taiwanese. Majority of them just say they are " overseas chinese" or just chinese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.63.207.12 (talk) 07:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The section "Definitions of Taiwanese" doesn't actually contain any definitions of "Taiwanese". Instead it contains a two paragraph essay on the meaning of "group identity". No similar section is provided in the articles for "Japanese people", "Chinese people" or "American people" (I didn't check any other groups of people). The essay seems not quite neutral, though it has citations. Readin 04:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) If this section is to remain, title needs changing.
 * 2) Does this section belong in this article, or does it belong in some style or policy manual describing how Wikipedia should define groups like "Taiwanese people"?
 * 3) If this section remains, it needs to be given context to say why it belongs here.
 * 4) If this section remains, it should be considered in the interest of NPOV what other groups of people should have a similar section in their articles.
 * 5) If his section remains, it needs a good thinking through as to whether it is NPOV or needs some clarifications.

Japanese Era vs Kuomintang Era
The description of the Japanese era starts with "In the face of the Japanese colonial hierarchy, the people of Taiwan were faced with the unequal binary relationship between colonizer and colonized. This duality between 'one' and 'other'...". This seems very biased against the Japanese era, especially when compared to description given for the Kuomintang era which also had an unequal relationship which many would consider a colonizer-colonized relationship. The wording of the Japanese era should be toned down.Readin 04:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Having read through a pile of history books, i can tell you that the current wording is in many ways very sugar-coated. I'm not gonna argue, if you have an emotional stake. The article is referenced to the hilt. the statement is echoed throughtout tons of books etc. Thanks for the comment! --Ling.Nut 04:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Even if the reference says exactly what the article says, the statement is still more opinion than fact. Examples of what created this unequal relationship would be better.  If the description of the Japanese era is "sugar-coated", as you say, and the description of the Kuomintang era is not, then surely the Japanese era must have been far worse than the Kuomintang era.  But the facts provided in the article do not provide any reason to believe this to be true.  The statement might as well have read, "The Japanese took over and were really really mean and nasty." Maybe they were, but use the facts to show it rather than just stating the opinion.  From what I've heard and read, the Japanese era wasn't worse than the Kuomintang era for most people, although it was pretty bad for the aborigines. If I'm wrong, the current wording in the article does nothing to show me wrong.  It just states an opinion that I've have reason to disagree with.Readin 04:01, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure there are books that tells about the KMT era having an unequal relationship.-- Jerry 12:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

US and Canadian population in Taiwan
I had a look at the sources cited to support the figures of US and Canadian migrants in Taiwan and noted that the sources don't acutally support the figures. The Chinese headings say "the current population of Taiwanese migrants in the US (or Canada, as the case may be), 2000", but not the other way around as the article seems to suggest.

I think the figures should be removed as the sources cited are incorrect.--Pyl (talk) 14:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Those are not suppose to be the US and Canadian migrants in Taiwan. Foreign migrants in Taiwan would be listed under the Taiwanese people living in Taiwan. The numbers are not incorrect.-- Jerrch 16:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * You are right. I apologise for the mistake.--Pyl (talk) 07:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

definition of 'native Taiwanese'
I find the definition highly dubious and there are sources offering conflicting definitions for this term.

Please go to talk:native Taiwanese for discussion, and let's see if we can have some resolution on this term. If no reliable sources are provided to show that 'native Taiwanese' is an unambiguous term and the definition in this article is undisputed, I will remove the term from the article. When that happens, I will leave 'benshengren' in the article as it is apparently defined without much contention.--pyl (talk) 13:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Standard Mandarin vs Taiwanese Mandarin
I'm a bit confused by the assertion that Standard Mandarin is the main language Taiwanese people speak rather than Taiwanese Mandarin since "Taiwanese Mandarin" seems to be by definition the version of Mandarin that people in Taiwan speak. Readin (talk) 15:57, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The term "Taiwanese Mandarin" is actually a bit misleading. It is basically just Standard Mandarin with Taiwanese slang. People in Taiwan speak Standard Mandarin. When they use Taiwanese slang, then they speak in "Taiwanese Mandarin". "Taiwanese Mandarin" is indeed spoken in Taiwan, as people do use slang. But people normally speak properly, so Standard Mandarin is the most common language that Taiwanese people speak. "Taiwanese Mandarin" can also be a derogatory term to describe the thick Min Nan accent or mispronunciation of some people when they speak in Mandarin.--pyl (talk) 16:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The differences between of Taiwanese Mandarin and Standard Mandarin are examples typical everyday speak, not the over-slanged rap of teenagers nor the prim and proper text of a presidential speech, just everyday normal talk. If you're asserting that written Standard Mandarin is more common then written Taiwanese Mandarin I would be included to agree.  But I find it very dubious to assert that Standard Mandarin is more commonly spoken than Taiwanese Mandarin.  Readin (talk) 16:54, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not sure where you got the definition of Taiwanese Mandarin from. Perhaps you speak Mandarin enough to know? Or perhaps you prefer the term because it has "Taiwanese" in it and it happens to fit your ideology? Perhaps you want to read the Chinese version of "Taiwanese Mandarin" and you will note that it defines "Taiwanese Mandarin" the same way as I just did. No one is talking about the "slanged rap of teenagers" except for you. "Taiwanese Mandarin" can be a derogatory term! It is not a good description just because it has Taiwan in it. I can't believe a non-speaker is arguing with a native speaker of Mandarin (both Standard and Taiwanese Mandarin, if you care to know) what the language means. Perhaps you are too blinded by your ideology to be neutral?--pyl (talk) 02:39, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Or perhaps you prefer the term because it has "Taiwanese" in it and it happens to fit your ideology. For a guy who began his early Wikipedia editing by throwing around accusations of others not assuming good faith, you have a strange way with words.


 * I brought the question to the talk page before making any edits precisely because of my weakness in the language. Based on your response, and the description of Taiwanese Mandarin in the Taiwanese Mandarin article, and my own experience hearing Mandarin spoken by many Taiwanese people (and some Chinese) people, it is clear to me that the Mandarin I have heard Taiwanese people speak is the dialect described on the Taiwanese Mandarin page.
 * I'm not sure why you consider the term "Taiwanese Mandarin" derogatory, but that is your POV and something you need to deal with for yourself.
 * Perhaps until we have a source that we can both agree is reliable, we should simply say "Mandarin Chinese". Or, even better, we could list "Mandarin Chinese" as the language and follow it with the dialects in parenthesis "(Taiwanese Mandarin and Standard Mandarin dialects").  Perhaps we could even distinguish between written and spoken "(Taiwanese Mandarin (spoken) and Standard Mandarin (written) dialects").  I'm willing to work with you on this until we can come up with a reliable source that shows usage. Readin (talk) 15:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I already said that the Chinese version of the "Taiwanese Mandarin" article defines the term same way as I did. Obviously then, it is not just my POV that "Taiwanese Mandarin" can be a derogatory term. If you can't read the Chinese version, perhaps you can ask someone else who can to translate it for you. It is common knowledge that's what the term means, and because of that, my assertion doesn't need a reference. Perhaps you can ask someone from Taiwan whether being described as a person who speaks a lot of "臺灣國語" is flattery.
 * People in Taiwan generally *speak* and write in Standard Mandarin. People don't use Taiwanese slang or Taiwanese usage that often. And certainly, most people don't have a thick Nin Nan accent when they speak Mandarin anymore. Similarly, I am sure you will notice that you speak English most of the time, not "American English".--pyl (talk) 16:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I simply don't believe that Taiwanese people speak Standard Mandarin more than they speak Taiwanese Mandarin. Find a source if you want to say it.  In any case, the label being applied is "language", not "dialect", and both Standard Mandarin and Taiwanese Mandarin are dialects of Mandarin Chinese.  Until we get a source, or at least get some other editors who know the situation, we'll just say Mandarin Chinese. Readin (talk) 18:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I often think that the Taiwanese mandarin would be the standard manadrin Chinese used by Taiwanese after the ROC government retreated to Taiwan. The phonetic base for Taiwanese standard mandarin(or Taipei accent mandarin when I was growing up) is bopomofo, and the mainlander version of standard mandarin would be pin yin. I know that it all depends on how well can the mandarin instructors enunciate when they teach the students how to pronounce the phonetic symbols, but I still think there is a major difference between the two mandarins. If you watch mainland news and listen to the way those anchormen speak, you can easily tell that they sound different when compared to Taiwanese anchormen. Accent should not be the problem because to be newsreaders, they need to have near perfect mandarin enunciation.


 * Just to kind of reinforce that point, I want to provide a link to National Virtual Translation Center (NVTC) http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/may/Mandarin.html a US government agency I got to know about back when I was looking at FBI's job listing for part time translator. It is very clear that they deemed both Chinese mandarin and Taiwanese mandarin are based on Beijing standard mandarin, but they actually classify them as two types of manadarin for this reason "Standard Mandarin is the official language of the People's Republic of China, the Republic of China (Taiwan), and one of the official languages of Singapore.
 * Technically, both and  are based on the Beijing dialect. In reality, however, both versions of "school" Mandarin taught in the two countries are often quite different from the Mandarin that is spoken regionally, and both differ from the Beijing dialect in pronunciation, grammar, and vocabulary." It is interesting, because when I was looking at the mandarin openings, they actually hav e "Mandarin(China)" and "Mandarin(Taiwan)". Do you think we can maybe call it "Standard Mandarin(Taiwan)"?


 * And yes, it needs to be noted that "Taiwanese mandarin" should not be the same as "Mandarin with Taiwanese accent". 151.151.98.238 (talk) 21:48, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I think you both got the definition of "Standard Mandarin" wrong. It is the officially regulated language by both the PRC and the ROC. They have slightly different standards but they are both called "Standard Mandarin". Then in Taiwan, due to the political separation from mainland China and influence from English, Japanese as well as Taiwanese Minnan, there are usages of Mandarin which is unique to Taiwan, that usage is called "Taiwanese Mandarin". Taiwanese Mandarin is not a language by itself. It is a dialect of Standard Mandarin. "Taiwanese Mandarin" is also a term describing the thick Min Nan accent or mispronunciation of some people when they speak in Mandarin. That's why "Taiwanese Mandarin" can also be considered a derogatory term. As the Taiwanese Mandarin article points out, Taiwanese Mandarin is essentially a series of Taiwanese usage and slang.

"bopomofo" (phonetics) and pinyin are two pronunciation tools for Standard Mandarin. Mainland China uses phonetics too but later in school, the pupils will learn pinyin. In Taiwan's case, the pupils learn phonetics and that's it. The pronunciation tools are simply roads to the final destination, which is the correct pronunciation of Standard Mandarin.

Readin, your "simply don't believe" is pretty pointless. I have explained and give you things that you can do to find out the information. You refuse to, then just give me one of those "I simply don't believes". Perhaps, you are being too arrogant? I can also say I simply don't believe that Taiwanese Mandarin is spoken in Taiwan. Go to Taiwan and speak to the people and see how much Taiwanese Mandarin they speak. Perhaps if you pay attention, you will note that they essentially speak Standard Mandarin. If you have so much free time, go change all cases of "English" to "American English" for the US and leave Mandarin along. At least, you speak English and know enough about it.

Standard Mandarin is not just a dialect of Mandarin Chinese. Standard Mandarin is the regulated national/common language. Mandarin Chinese (in Wikipedia's case) refers to the dialects, including the Beijing dialect. Have you been to Beijing and spoken to them? From my experience, some of them pronounce words differently from the pronunciation as dictated by Standard Mandarin. But it is coherent. My experience is actually mirrored in the Mandarin Chinese and Beijing dialect articles.

I feel like I have been retyping what has been said in the articles. Perhaps you want to read Standard Mandarin Taiwanese Mandarin and Beijing dialect properly before arguing further.--pyl (talk) 03:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * From the Madarin Chinese article: The "standard" in Standard Mandarin refers to the standard Beijing dialect of the Mandarin language.
 * But also Like all other varieties of Chinese, there is significant dispute as to whether Mandarin is a language or a dialect. See Identification of the varieties of Chinese for more on this issue.
 * We've basically run up against the problem that languages are related and the boundaries and classifications are not always clear and distinct. Mandarin Chinese is a broad term - it is what I would call a language as it is mutually intelligible by all speakers (a comparison is made in the Mandarin Chinese article to the dialects of English), although at it's worst "intelligibility is limited" (according to Mandarin dialects, and the same could be said of some dialects of English, especially before the development of radio and television).  "Standard Mandarin" is more precise term for what I would call a dialect of Mandarin, although references to it in the articles are mixed - it is at times called a language and at other times a dialect.  Finally, "Taiwanese Mandarin" is the most precise, although in your opinion it is a vulgar or insulting term.  It is strange to me that you would compare it to the term "American English" as the later is not insulting and it is indeed the dialect of English spoken by most Americans (and it is a dialect that contains many dialects).  Few Americans speak the version of English that is taught (or used to be taught) in school.  We are aware of it.  The better educated are capable of writing it.  But few actually use it when speaking.
 * My experience with Taiwanese people is that most speak the version of Mandarin described in the Taiwanese Mandarin article. That is nothing to be ashamed of. Why should they be expected to speak a Beijing dialect anymore than an American Southerner should be expected to speak with a Boston accent or a London accent? Wikipedia should adopt an NPOV toward dialects rather than a cultural or linguistic bigotry.
 * Framing question properly, we have three choices ranked in order of decreasing specificity: Taiwanese Mandarin, Standard Mandarin, and Mandarin Chinese.
 * The box says it is for "languages", and I think we can both agree that "Taiwanese Mandarin" is a dialect rather than a language.
 * Mandarin Chinese is clearly a language.
 * Standard Mandarin could be called a "language", or it might not. Since calling it a "language" allows us to be more specific than saying "Mandarin Chinese", then let's do that.  I don't actually believe it is a language, but given our disagreement we might as well err on the side of giving more information - and "Standard Mandarin" is more specific than "Mandarin Chinese". Readin (talk) 04:32, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * There is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of to be speaking Taiwanese Mandarin. It is part of the richness of the Taiwanese culture. I think we are in agreement here. In this case however, we are not talking about the Taiwanese culture. The definition is "Taiwanese Mandarin" is what it is. It can be a derogatory term. While I personally agree with you that there is nothing to be ashamed of to be speaking Taiwanese Mandarin, I must be neutral and consider the fact that using this term to describe someone or a group of people can be offensive to some readers. There is similarly an expression Ocker in English, where it can be offensive if you describe someone as speaking in Ocker English.--pyl (talk) 08:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I am Taiwanese American. I learned to speak Mandarin as a child in Taiwan. I speak Taiwanese better than I speak Mandarin because that is what my parents spoke at home. I have been back to Taiwan, interacted with many people from Taiwan in the U.S., people from China in the U.S., and I have also visited China several times. I can tell you that there is a clear difference in the accent, style and tone of someone who learned to speak Mandarin in Taiwan as opposed to someone who learned to speak Mandarin in China. People in China were able to identify me as Taiwanese as soon as they heard me speak Mandarin. It is not because of slang and it is definitely still proper or “standard” Mandarin. The tone used by those who learned Mandarin in Taiwan is much sweeter, nicer, less harsh sounding than the Mandarin taught in China. There is also a kind of Mandarin that is improper, mixed with slang, and possibly derogatory typically spoken by people in Taiwan residing in rural areas where Mandarin is rarely spoken. I grew up listening to my parents, tv shows filmed in Taiwan, and movies filmed in Taiwan poke fun at people (mostly elders who did not go to school during the KMT era and therefore, did not learn Mandarin in a formal setting like school) who were unable to speak proper Mandarin, unable to accurately pronounce certain words correctly and would often throw in Taiwanese words because they did not know the Mandarin equivalent. I think all of you are correct in a way with each of your assessments. Bottom line, there is a difference in the way Mandarin is spoken in Taiwan v. China and there is also improperly spoken Mandarin spoken by those in Taiwan who are not as fluent in Mandarin. Yes, sometimes it can be seen as derogatory but sometimes it is just accepted because often times, it is spoken by the older genders who spoke fluent Japanese instead, having attended school during th Japanese era. What many people fail to realize is that Mandarin was not spoken, taught, or ever used in Taiwan until the KMT forced it on the Taiwanese people with martial law in 1949. Mandarin is a fairly new dialect in Taiwan and unless you attended school after the KMT forced Mandarin onto the Taiwanese people in school, you only spoke Taiwanese, Hakka, and/or Japanese. Wendychan73 (talk) 03:04, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

my removal of content
i removed the content that was sourced with Dr. Lin's claim that southern chinese are pure yueh.

first of all, she has no PHD in history, she is a geneticist, yet her entire report does not mention a single result of her tests. it is a statement claiming that northern chinese are "pure" chinese, and southern chinese yueh which is in fact laughable. she is a geneticist, not a historian. for example, if a person wit a PHD in botany claimed the romans were growing 500 feet tall sunslowers, youd want him to show you his phd in roman history....

Overlap with Taiwanese Identity
I've started a discussion at Talk:Taiwanese_identity to discuss how we might disentangle the Taiwanese People and Taiwanese Identity articles. I believe they have some overlap issues. Readin (talk) 14:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

jeremy lin is taiwanese
I think jeremy lin is an important taiwanese person. shouldn't he be inside? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.235.73 (talk) 00:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * He's an American (although he is of Taiwanese descent). -- The Giant Purple Platypus (talk) 10:19, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Aren't Taiwanese are Chinese? I do not understand, Citizenship of ROC are Chinese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.13.42.45 (talk) 07:19, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Western labelling of Taiwanese as Chinese during Japanese rule
During Japanese rule, westerners referred to Taiwanese as Chinese, such as this 1920 National Geographic Magazine: "The bulk of the population of Formosa is, of course, Chinese.". It should be mentioned in the article that westerners still perceived Taiwanese as ethnic Chinese even decades after Japan took over.Rajmaan (talk) 04:06, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Genetics of Taiwanese Han
Southern Han largely share the same Y chromosomes with the same mutations as northern Han, while differing in mtdna and autosomal DNA.. Due to southern Han being descended from northern Han migrants who moved to southern China and married native women.

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://udini.proquest.com/view/how-han-are-taiwanese-han-genetic-pqid:1668343911/

http://gradworks.umi.com/33/43/3343568.html

有唐山公，無唐山媽

"Have mainland (Tangshan) grandfathers, don't have mainland (tangshan) grandmothers

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=I2OMVmp-7mwC&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false

14:40, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Taiwanese people
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Taiwanese people's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "auto": From France: The last sacre was that of Charles X, 29 May 1825. From Taiwanese Canadians:  From Kuomintang:  From Overseas Chinese:  From Wang Ju-hsuan:  From Mika Tan:  From Jolin Tsai: iConcerts.com. Jolin Tsai : Concerts on Demand, Latest News & Bio.. Retrieved February 2, 2013. </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 08:03, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Figure for Canada
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_Canadians

That page has the number of over 94,000 people, which seems much more probable than the current 556,000 people figure here on this page. With the source originally linked being dead, should that be edited to match the smaller figure? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChineseToTheBone (talk • contribs) 06:30, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Shintaro Ishihara did not say the Chinese of Taiwanese origin
Shintaro Ishihara stated this:

「日本統治下にあった在日朝鮮・韓国人や台湾人を指す言葉として敗戦直後に使われ、独立民族としての地位をあいまいにする差別語とされている. 」

It's just 'Taiwanese' and not 'Chinese of Taiwanese origin'. Really, who writes or creates phrases like this to brainwash others? This is a rhetorical question, so no need to answer it.

On a side note, support de jure independence for Taiwan! ROC is a lost cause. Go for the Republic of Taiwan!