Talk:Takapūneke

Moved DYK discussion to article talk
OK, Johnbod; you're right, I should have done that earlier. Thank you for all the work you've put in,. Everything seems to be cited now. A few minor points:


 * It seems that Tama-i-hara-nui was clapped in irons and taken to Kapiti Island; he was held by John Stewart and not handed over to the Ngāti Toa until two months after the massacre at Takapūneke, because John Stewart was hoping, in vain, to be paid. The article phrasing is ambiguous, and could imply that Tama-i-hara-nui was tortured and killed at Takapūneke. The article currently describes the fate of Tama-i-hara-nui and omits the names and fates of Te Whe, Nga Roimata, and the enslaved Ngāi Tahu (probably also taken to Kapiti, and set to dressing muka in a plantation-like economy; some were subsequently released). Since this article is about a location, it might make sense to just way they were all carried off to Kapiti, and have the events at Kapiti in a different article, unless there is a solid reason to link those events to this location.


 * The "Ngāti Toa had firearms but Ngāi Tahu did not" and "pretence of trade" are unaltered; could you maybe give the supporting quote from page 13 of Ogilvie 2010?
 * It seems as though firearms were rather spottily distributed at the time. It's hard to get a unified picture from the limited online sources I'm reading. It seems likely that the Ngāti Toa in the taua which attacked Takapūneke had more firearms and more experience using them than most Ngāi Tahu; this is however my synthesis.
 * Te Rauparaha seems to have first acquired firearms between 1810 and 1815; by ~1820, he had over twenty gunmen.
 * Mid 1920s: "Ngai Tahu from the south had obtained guns from Kent and other Sydney traders earlier than their northern relations. However, the wars between Ngai Tahu did not spread south and came to an end after 1828, as Te Rauparaha of Ngati Toa began his invasions of the South Island. Beginning in 1829, after Te Rauparaha's first attack at Kaikoura, southern Ngai Tahu chiefs sold land to obtain more guns and ammunition. In the 1830s their whaling boats were armed with small cannon when carrying war parties."
 * 1827: "He also wanted to control the supply of greenstone, and the South Island, where greenstone was to be found, was open to conquest as the tribes there had not yet acquired guns."
 * 1828: Te Rauparaha attacked Kaikoura and the eight chiefs were killed at Kaiapoi pa.
 * One of the eight chiefs killed and eaten was Te Pēhi Kupe, the senior chief of Ngati Toa. His bones were made into fish-hooks. Others were Pokai-tara, Te Ara-tangata, and Kiko-tiwha.
 * in 1930s: "However, Ngāi Tahu now had muskets and were much more difficult to fight."
 * The Murihiku and Otakou Ngāi Tahu had guns from the Pakeha whalers, and used them in the 1830s wars.
 * "By the 1830s, most tribes were heavily armed."
 * By the mid-1830s, Ngai Tahu had acquired guns, from whalers in Otago.
 * Te Rauparaha went no further south than Akaroa.

The Ngāti Toa and Ngāi Tahu seem, unsurprisingly, to give different accounts of the fight between them. For instance, at Kaiapoi pa, Ngāti Toa accounts say the eight chiefs were killed while sleeping; Ngāi Tahu, that they were killed in a quarrel over a block of greenstone after Te Pehi Kue said to a Ngai Tahu named Moimoi: "Why do you, with the crooked tattoo, resist my wishes – you whose nose will shortly be cut off with a hatchet?". For neutrality, I think we must either confine the article to statements agreed on by all accounts, or give the differing accounts with some indication of their weight. The level of expertise required to do the latter is considerable, so in practice I think this would mean finding good sources that weigh the different stories. This is difficult.

Paora Taki of the Ngāi Tahu took part in the Elizabeth affair, survived, retained his freedom, and later wrote an eyewitness account of some part of the wars. If it is this source, it is not directly relevant.

Another source on the Elizabeth affair; account detailed, but old and possibly inaccurate. It says that Te Whe was captured separately, and gives another account of the legal difficulties; your "variety of legal questions" seems like a wise summary. The source also casts a lot of doubt on some parts of the story; says: "The Elizabeth incident was seized upon and embroidered to suit the various “parties” of a later day, and in the course of time many gory details were added. In addition to the account given in Governor Darling's dispatches, there are also Ngati Toa, Ngai Tahu, and whalers' versions which all differ on material points, including Stewart's part in the affair." 

Alistair Te Ariki Campbell wrote a vivid poem about events including the Elizabeth affair.

I've learned a lot about New Zealand in the 1810s-1830s. Sorry for the delay. HLHJ (talk) 00:39, 9 March 2020 (UTC)



Update: it seems that the sewage plant is now definitely to be moved, as was suggested in the Management plan. HLHJ (talk) 03:47, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * With regards to the sewage plant, I've added something to the article. The city council's project website is somewhat nebulous with regards to what is going on / where things are at. I've written to them and asked them to provide some clarity through their website (e.g. when will they build the new treatment plant, what will happen when the consent of the existing plant expires in October 2020, and what happened to the consultation that they were due to hold in early 2020 which forms the basis for further decision making?).  Schwede 66  23:43, 13 May 2020 (UTC)